God the Littlefinger scene was done so much fucking better in the books. Not just the dialogue, but "Marillion has killed my lady-wife" and pretty much everything else about it. I'm also still baffled at Aiden Gillen's accent change, it's very odd. I guess I should just concede to being eternally disappointed by the adaptations of every big moment - I didn't like the Red Wedding either.
Though they've somehow made me love Oberyn even more than I did in the books, so they're partly forgiven. It seems more and more that Dave and Dan only really give a shit about the Lannister and Arya plotlines and give short shrift to literally everything else. Anyway, two weeks from now is going to suck. New Mountain isn't as hateable as S1 Mountain, too bad they couldn't get Stevens back.
Hearing about Stoneheart and revealing that it's Cat are two different things.
Right, but if they have Cat hang Brienne at the end of this season, that leaves almost zero time to build up that the brotherhood has changed and some sort of terrifying woman is now leading them. I feel the Stoneheart reveal should still be this season, so that we see she's become a monster. Then they can do the buildup early next season, before Brienne meets her.
Please fucking god no don't have the reveal of Stoneheart be her hanging Brienne. That diminishes it completely. It's meant to be a fist pumping, satisfying moment - A Frey gets what he deserves and Cat (or a version of her) is the one doling out vengeance. We're meant to be on her side until it's shown how monstrous she really has become when Brienne comes into play. Doing that right off the bat not only distracts focus from the reveal, but cuts the power from Stoneheart's story.
But knowing how often they're changing or streamlining stuff from the books, I'm sure I'll be disappointed. Again.
I expect, like all their previous departures, for it to go badly.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
I expect, like all their previous departures, for it to go badly.
Never really understood why this thread has a fixation for those scenes. They don't really make sense in the context of the show. First, they contradict Tywin's character. He's a hardass and a bad father, but with Arya, he's firm, yet gentle and kind. And while he's on the lookout for a noble girl the same age and description as his serving girl, he never connects the dots, even though he knows his serving girl is noble and trying to hide.
Interesting in a vacuum, out of place with the rest of what we know about the character. That they were good scenes doesn't mean they fit into the show.
I expect, like all their previous departures, for it to go badly.
Never really understood why this thread has a fixation for those scenes. They don't really make sense in the context of the show. First, they contradict Tywin's character. He's a hardass and a bad father, but with Arya, he's firm, yet gentle and kind. And while he's on the lookout for a noble girl the same age and description as his serving girl, he never connects the dots, even though he knows his serving girl is noble and trying to hide.
Interesting in a vacuum, out of place with the rest of what we know about the character. That they were good scenes doesn't mean they fit into the show.
Yeah, I've always felt this way about those scenes too.
I have a question regarding the Tri-Pod and Brienne. Did they just cut out a huge chunk of their itinerary? I thought there was a lot more wandering around the Riverlands before they decided to head over to Lysa. Don't they spend some time in the presence of Randal Tarly and pick up another knight? I seem to recall Maidenpool being a pretty big deal in their story. If they are already heading into the mountains, do they skip it, or move it?
I have a question regarding the Tri-Pod and Brienne. Did they just cut out a huge chunk of their itinerary? I thought there was a lot more wandering around the Riverlands before they decided to head over to Lysa. Don't they spend some time in the presence of Randal Tarly and pick up another knight? I seem to recall Maidenpool being a pretty big deal in their story. If they are already heading into the mountains, do they skip it, or move it?
They could very well run into the Hound on the way. Maybe his wound takes a turn for the worse, Arya leaves him, and he gives Brienne the tip about Maidenpool, launching that whole arc. Otherwise, I guess they'll just cut it.
All the stuff with Tyrion was great, Bronn is always good and Oberyn continues to exceed expectations. That, Dany's new dress, Hotpie, an awesome snow castle and more fleshing out of Melisandre (pun intended) weren't enough to cover up for botching one of my favorite scenes from the book though. Seriously, even just saying "only Cat" would've made it so much better, I could accept no Marillion, but that just felt so wrong.
Interesting choice of having the Hound and Arya kill Rorge and the Biter. Looks like it's the bite that's gonna kill the Hound, as opposed to wounds from the inn fight.
Though interesting, I'm more disappointed in that choice since I liked Brienne killing Rorge (wearing the Hound's helmet) in the books. I loved those Brienne chapters for all the reasons above (show the chaos of the war's aftermath, resurgence of the faith, etc), but also because Brienne confronts, and defeats, a handful of leftover villains (a few Bloody Mummers, Rorge). She just starts cleaning house while looking for Sansa.
I guess they can have her kill a bunch of no name bandits, but just doesn't seem as significant.
Be interesting how they explain The Flight of Lysa. And the scene. . .I dunno. Wasn't feeling it.
Agreed. The fact that they had Littlefinger go all "Only Cat" mere minutes prior soured it for me. There was no feeling of oncoming shock/dread when you had it explained a moment before that he didn't care for Lysa at all. It almost feels more like a payoff for the viewing audience (crazy bitch is gone!) than for Littlefinger.
They didn't do "Only Cat" because most of the show watchers would have been "Who?". My brother is most of the way through season 3 and still has almost no ones name, much less pet names.
They didn't do "Only Cat" because most of the show watchers would have been "Who?". My brother is most of the way through season 3 and still has almost no ones name, much less pet names.
There are like three conversations IN THIS VERY EPISODE where they could have brought it back up to refresh viewers memory.
The books decidedly avoid assuming the readers are stupid. The show is not going to be better by assuming they are.
They didn't do "Only Cat" because most of the show watchers would have been "Who?". My brother is most of the way through season 3 and still has almost no ones name, much less pet names.
There are like three conversations IN THIS VERY EPISODE where they could have brought it back up to refresh viewers memory.
The books decidedly avoid assuming the readers are stupid. The show is not going to be better by assuming they are.
I was just talking about this with show watchers at work. Some of them knew who Cat was, most didn't. Some of them mentioned they were glad Winterfell is still in the opening credits so they could recognize the snow castle immediately. It'll be funny if it's not in the opening next episode. It's like the whole thing with Sandor talking about his face and showing Gregor killing random people, you have to remind people he's evil because they'll forget.
They didn't do "Only Cat" because most of the show watchers would have been "Who?". My brother is most of the way through season 3 and still has almost no ones name, much less pet names.
There are like three conversations IN THIS VERY EPISODE where they could have brought it back up to refresh viewers memory.
The books decidedly avoid assuming the readers are stupid. The show is not going to be better by assuming they are.
also, i don't think you need to have all the names memorized for the scene to work. i'm sure most would have worked out what 'only cat' meant based on context, even if they don't recall names.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
oh man reading that show thread is -hilarious-
So many of them are going to hate the upcoming deaths
They didn't do "Only Cat" because most of the show watchers would have been "Who?". My brother is most of the way through season 3 and still has almost no ones name, much less pet names.
There are like three conversations IN THIS VERY EPISODE where they could have brought it back up to refresh viewers memory.
The books decidedly avoid assuming the readers are stupid. The show is not going to be better by assuming they are.
I was just talking about this with show watchers at work. Some of them knew who Cat was, most didn't. Some of them mentioned they were glad Winterfell is still in the opening credits so they could recognize the snow castle immediately. It'll be funny if it's not in the opening next episode. It's like the whole thing with Sandor talking about his face and showing Gregor killing random people, you have to remind people he's evil because they'll forget.
While no one is likely to jump into the books by picking up Clash, Feast, Storm, or Dance, the show will pick up watchers who haven't seen earlier seasons.
Though with the Mountain killing random people I'm not sure that was just to remind people he's awful. They have enough lines from Oberyn to do that. I think it was also to show how callous Cersei is by being totally fine walking past some dead man's entrails without any care.
They didn't do "Only Cat" because most of the show watchers would have been "Who?". My brother is most of the way through season 3 and still has almost no ones name, much less pet names.
There are like three conversations IN THIS VERY EPISODE where they could have brought it back up to refresh viewers memory.
The books decidedly avoid assuming the readers are stupid. The show is not going to be better by assuming they are.
Didn't Brienne bring up her oath to CATelyn Stark in her conversation with Hot Pie? Ultimately, it is a less egregious change than "The Lannisters sends their regards."
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syndalisGetting ClassyOn the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Productsregular
They didn't do "Only Cat" because most of the show watchers would have been "Who?". My brother is most of the way through season 3 and still has almost no ones name, much less pet names.
There are like three conversations IN THIS VERY EPISODE where they could have brought it back up to refresh viewers memory.
The books decidedly avoid assuming the readers are stupid. The show is not going to be better by assuming they are.
Didn't Brienne bring up her oath to CATelyn Stark in her conversation with Hot Pie? Ultimately, it is a less egregious change than "The Lannisters sends their regards."
yeah, the meaning was in no way altered.
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Let's play Mario Kart or something...
God the Littlefinger scene was done so much fucking better in the books. Not just the dialogue, but "Marillion has killed my lady-wife" and pretty much everything else about it. I'm also still baffled at Aiden Gillen's accent change, it's very odd. I guess I should just concede to being eternally disappointed by the adaptations of every big moment - I didn't like the Red Wedding either.
Though they've somehow made me love Oberyn even more than I did in the books, so they're partly forgiven. It seems more and more that Dave and Dan only really give a shit about the Lannister and Arya plotlines and give short shrift to literally everything else. Anyway, two weeks from now is going to suck. New Mountain isn't as hateable as S1 Mountain, too bad they couldn't get Stevens back.
I hate Littlefinger's new voice. WTF is up with that?
Ultimately, it is a less egregious change than "The Lannisters sends their regards."
I actually had less issue with that one. For 'small' changes with outsized reader reactions, I'm never gonna get over Renly's Peach.
Unless Edd doesn't fetch a block. They love beheadings on the show, so I can't imagine they'll fuck that one, but if they do... argh. I'm just angry thinking about it.
Ultimately, it is a less egregious change than "The Lannisters sends their regards."
I actually had less issue with that one. For 'small' changes with outsized reader reactions, I'm never gonna get over Renly's Peach.
Unless Edd doesn't fetch a blockdoesn't request his stuff. They love beheadings on the show, so I can't imagine they'll fuck that one, but if they do... argh. I'm just angry thinking about it.
God the Littlefinger scene was done so much fucking better in the books. Not just the dialogue, but "Marillion has killed my lady-wife" and pretty much everything else about it. I'm also still baffled at Aiden Gillen's accent change, it's very odd. I guess I should just concede to being eternally disappointed by the adaptations of every big moment - I didn't like the Red Wedding either.
Though they've somehow made me love Oberyn even more than I did in the books, so they're partly forgiven. It seems more and more that Dave and Dan only really give a shit about the Lannister and Arya plotlines and give short shrift to literally everything else. Anyway, two weeks from now is going to suck. New Mountain isn't as hateable as S1 Mountain, too bad they couldn't get Stevens back.
I hate Littlefinger's new voice. WTF is up with that?
I don't really understand where that came from, as well.
Renly's peach was because much to their surprise, it is apparently impossible to find a peach to buy in northern ireland when they were shooting, and they were on a schedule.
The life of a TV show.
A trap is for fish: when you've got the fish, you can forget the trap. A snare is for rabbits: when you've got the rabbit, you can forget the snare. Words are for meaning: when you've got the meaning, you can forget the words.
Are you guys like reading the books along with the show or something?
I read the series between S1 & S2, and seriously don't remember any of the lines you're nitpicking over.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
I expect, like all their previous departures, for it to go badly.
I'm sorry, but you, and everyone who agreed with your post, are geese.
I'm sympathetic with getting upset over a cut scene, a changed character, an altered line, or a botched story line. This show, and it's adaptation, isn't perfect. But neither are the books, and believe it or not there are some things in the show that are better than the books.
Don't like the Arya and Tywin scenes? Fine, how about Robert and Cersie's conversation in season 1, considered by a lot of critics to be the first real great scene of the series?
Want more? How about making Margaery an actual character instead of a cypher? How about making Robb an actual character? How about everything with Varys?
Hell, don't just take it from me. Martin himself has gone on record to state that he now wishes he'd aged up the Stark kids like they are on the show and that Osha is a much more interesting character on the show.
So, to say that every thing the show invents or "departs" is bad, is the worst kind of internet hyperbole. Because it is categorically, empirically, factually, not true.
"Only Cat" is also literally the last line of dialogue in the last chapter (ignoring the epilogue) of the most packed of the books. It's a hell of a way to go out.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
But yeah, there's a lot of great stuff in the show, and GRRM is first and foremost a TV guy, so there's no right and wrong here. I think some people just have some favorite stuff from the books that they look forward to on the show and are disappointed to miss.
Renly's peach was because much to their surprise, it is apparently impossible to find a peach to buy in northern ireland when they were shooting, and they were on a schedule.
The life of a TV show.
Actually, it was part of their plan to destroy Stannis as a character. When Jon decides to behead Janos Slynt, it will actually be Melisandre that gives the nod instead of Stannis.
But they do have good changes too, as pointed out above.
What I will say is that the show makes additions that are good fairly frequently, particularly with scenes we'd never have a chance to see because of the lack of POV characters in them. Like everything with Margaery, for example, though a lot of that is Dormer and frequently Rigg. When they make actual alterations though? It rarely ends well.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I expect, like all their previous departures, for it to go badly.
I'm sorry, but you, and everyone who agreed with your post, are geese.
I'm sympathetic with getting upset over a cut scene, a changed character, an altered line, or a botched story line. This show, and it's adaptation, isn't perfect. But neither are the books, and believe it or not there are some things in the show that are better than the books.
Don't like the Arya and Tywin scenes? Fine, how about Robert and Cersie's conversation in season 1, considered by a lot of critics to be the first real great scene of the series?
Or the scene where Theon almost sends Robb a warning letter?
How about all the added Bronn and Tyrion conversations, like the drinking game with Shae?
Want more? How about making Margaery an actual character instead of a cypher? How about making Robb an actual character? How about everything with Varys?
Hell, don't just take it from me. Martin himself has gone on record to state that he now wishes he'd aged up the Stark kids like they are on the show and that Osha is a much more interesting character on the show.
So, to say that every thing the show invents or "departs" is bad, is the worst kind of internet hyperbole. Because it is categorically, empirically, factually, not true.
I agree with your general point but one question springs to mind:
But yeah, there's a lot of great stuff in the show, and GRRM is first and foremost a TV guy, so there's no right and wrong here. I think some people just have some favorite stuff from the books that they look forward to on the show and are disappointed to miss.
I totally agree, and some people may really like an invented scene, while others may hate that same scene with a burning passion. But to just come out and say that everything the show runners create is bad just reeks of thread-shitting to me. You want to talk about why a scene change is disappointing, or the nuances of which changes do and do not work, I'm all ears.
However, near the end of the fourth season, I'm pretty sure most of us are sick and tired of "the show is not the books." I know I am. You have small deviations like the amazing scene with Oberyn and Tyrion. You also have "fun" new scenes like with Hot Pie at the inn. You watch things like that and then come in here and say you don't like literally anything original that the show does? Maybe it's just venting frustration, but it comes off as pure trolling.
I expect, like all their previous departures, for it to go badly.
I'm sorry, but you, and everyone who agreed with your post, are geese.
I'm sympathetic with getting upset over a cut scene, a changed character, an altered line, or a botched story line. This show, and it's adaptation, isn't perfect. But neither are the books, and believe it or not there are some things in the show that are better than the books.
Don't like the Arya and Tywin scenes? Fine, how about Robert and Cersie's conversation in season 1, considered by a lot of critics to be the first real great scene of the series?
Or the scene where Theon almost sends Robb a warning letter?
How about all the added Bronn and Tyrion conversations, like the drinking game with Shae?
Want more? How about making Margaery an actual character instead of a cypher? How about making Robb an actual character? How about everything with Varys?
Hell, don't just take it from me. Martin himself has gone on record to state that he now wishes he'd aged up the Stark kids like they are on the show and that Osha is a much more interesting character on the show.
So, to say that every thing the show invents or "departs" is bad, is the worst kind of internet hyperbole. Because it is categorically, empirically, factually, not true.
I agree with your general point but one question springs to mind:
What did they change this season that was good?
Off the top of my head? Bronn being Jaimie's sparring partner.
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Though they've somehow made me love Oberyn even more than I did in the books, so they're partly forgiven. It seems more and more that Dave and Dan only really give a shit about the Lannister and Arya plotlines and give short shrift to literally everything else. Anyway, two weeks from now is going to suck. New Mountain isn't as hateable as S1 Mountain, too bad they couldn't get Stevens back.
Please fucking god no don't have the reveal of Stoneheart be her hanging Brienne. That diminishes it completely. It's meant to be a fist pumping, satisfying moment - A Frey gets what he deserves and Cat (or a version of her) is the one doling out vengeance. We're meant to be on her side until it's shown how monstrous she really has become when Brienne comes into play. Doing that right off the bat not only distracts focus from the reveal, but cuts the power from Stoneheart's story.
But knowing how often they're changing or streamlining stuff from the books, I'm sure I'll be disappointed. Again.
Never really understood why this thread has a fixation for those scenes. They don't really make sense in the context of the show. First, they contradict Tywin's character. He's a hardass and a bad father, but with Arya, he's firm, yet gentle and kind. And while he's on the lookout for a noble girl the same age and description as his serving girl, he never connects the dots, even though he knows his serving girl is noble and trying to hide.
Interesting in a vacuum, out of place with the rest of what we know about the character. That they were good scenes doesn't mean they fit into the show.
Yeah, I've always felt this way about those scenes too.
They could very well run into the Hound on the way. Maybe his wound takes a turn for the worse, Arya leaves him, and he gives Brienne the tip about Maidenpool, launching that whole arc. Otherwise, I guess they'll just cut it.
All the stuff with Tyrion was great, Bronn is always good and Oberyn continues to exceed expectations. That, Dany's new dress, Hotpie, an awesome snow castle and more fleshing out of Melisandre (pun intended) weren't enough to cover up for botching one of my favorite scenes from the book though. Seriously, even just saying "only Cat" would've made it so much better, I could accept no Marillion, but that just felt so wrong.
Though interesting, I'm more disappointed in that choice since I liked Brienne killing Rorge (wearing the Hound's helmet) in the books. I loved those Brienne chapters for all the reasons above (show the chaos of the war's aftermath, resurgence of the faith, etc), but also because Brienne confronts, and defeats, a handful of leftover villains (a few Bloody Mummers, Rorge). She just starts cleaning house while looking for Sansa.
I guess they can have her kill a bunch of no name bandits, but just doesn't seem as significant.
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Agreed. The fact that they had Littlefinger go all "Only Cat" mere minutes prior soured it for me. There was no feeling of oncoming shock/dread when you had it explained a moment before that he didn't care for Lysa at all. It almost feels more like a payoff for the viewing audience (crazy bitch is gone!) than for Littlefinger.
Pins!
There are like three conversations IN THIS VERY EPISODE where they could have brought it back up to refresh viewers memory.
The books decidedly avoid assuming the readers are stupid. The show is not going to be better by assuming they are.
I was just talking about this with show watchers at work. Some of them knew who Cat was, most didn't. Some of them mentioned they were glad Winterfell is still in the opening credits so they could recognize the snow castle immediately. It'll be funny if it's not in the opening next episode. It's like the whole thing with Sandor talking about his face and showing Gregor killing random people, you have to remind people he's evil because they'll forget.
also, i don't think you need to have all the names memorized for the scene to work. i'm sure most would have worked out what 'only cat' meant based on context, even if they don't recall names.
So many of them are going to hate the upcoming deaths
While no one is likely to jump into the books by picking up Clash, Feast, Storm, or Dance, the show will pick up watchers who haven't seen earlier seasons.
Though with the Mountain killing random people I'm not sure that was just to remind people he's awful. They have enough lines from Oberyn to do that. I think it was also to show how callous Cersei is by being totally fine walking past some dead man's entrails without any care.
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But people are fucking terrified for him right now.
Didn't Brienne bring up her oath to CATelyn Stark in her conversation with Hot Pie? Ultimately, it is a less egregious change than "The Lannisters sends their regards."
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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Let's play Mario Kart or something...
yeah, the meaning was in no way altered.
Let's play Mario Kart or something...
I hate Littlefinger's new voice. WTF is up with that?
I actually had less issue with that one. For 'small' changes with outsized reader reactions, I'm never gonna get over Renly's Peach.
Unless Edd doesn't fetch a block. They love beheadings on the show, so I can't imagine they'll fuck that one, but if they do... argh. I'm just angry thinking about it.
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I don't really understand where that came from, as well.
The life of a TV show.
I read the series between S1 & S2, and seriously don't remember any of the lines you're nitpicking over.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Some of us read the books a lot more recently so it's fresher. As an example, Amazon did a massive discount on the kindle set late last year.
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I'm sorry, but you, and everyone who agreed with your post, are geese.
I'm sympathetic with getting upset over a cut scene, a changed character, an altered line, or a botched story line. This show, and it's adaptation, isn't perfect. But neither are the books, and believe it or not there are some things in the show that are better than the books.
Don't like the Arya and Tywin scenes? Fine, how about Robert and Cersie's conversation in season 1, considered by a lot of critics to be the first real great scene of the series?
Or the scene where Theon almost sends Robb a warning letter?
How about all the added Bronn and Tyrion conversations, like the drinking game with Shae?
Want more? How about making Margaery an actual character instead of a cypher? How about making Robb an actual character? How about everything with Varys?
Hell, don't just take it from me. Martin himself has gone on record to state that he now wishes he'd aged up the Stark kids like they are on the show and that Osha is a much more interesting character on the show.
So, to say that every thing the show invents or "departs" is bad, is the worst kind of internet hyperbole. Because it is categorically, empirically, factually, not true.
But yeah, there's a lot of great stuff in the show, and GRRM is first and foremost a TV guy, so there's no right and wrong here. I think some people just have some favorite stuff from the books that they look forward to on the show and are disappointed to miss.
Actually, it was part of their plan to destroy Stannis as a character. When Jon decides to behead Janos Slynt, it will actually be Melisandre that gives the nod instead of Stannis.
But they do have good changes too, as pointed out above.
What I will say is that the show makes additions that are good fairly frequently, particularly with scenes we'd never have a chance to see because of the lack of POV characters in them. Like everything with Margaery, for example, though a lot of that is Dormer and frequently Rigg. When they make actual alterations though? It rarely ends well.
I agree with your general point but one question springs to mind:
What did they change this season that was good?
I totally agree, and some people may really like an invented scene, while others may hate that same scene with a burning passion. But to just come out and say that everything the show runners create is bad just reeks of thread-shitting to me. You want to talk about why a scene change is disappointing, or the nuances of which changes do and do not work, I'm all ears.
However, near the end of the fourth season, I'm pretty sure most of us are sick and tired of "the show is not the books." I know I am. You have small deviations like the amazing scene with Oberyn and Tyrion. You also have "fun" new scenes like with Hot Pie at the inn. You watch things like that and then come in here and say you don't like literally anything original that the show does? Maybe it's just venting frustration, but it comes off as pure trolling.
Off the top of my head? Bronn being Jaimie's sparring partner.