I think it's a good idea for T4CT to take a break from the forums, even though it's a bummer. If you ever start to feel judged or unwelcome somewhere, it's important to voice that and maybe examine if you want to stick it out or cut your losses. I understand that being serious all the time about the problematic aspects of games and the media associated with it can be draining and that it sucks when you come to this thread to have fun, but the only way to beat these issues is by talking about them. It would help if people on both sides tried to be less combative and/or dismissive though.
3DS: 2234-8122-8398 | Battle.net (EU): Ladi#2485
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TrippyJingMoses supposes his toeses are roses.But Moses supposes erroneously.Registered Userregular
I could use some hash browns right now.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
For example in Sleeping Dogs my general MO is to steal a car, the guy yells at me, I turn around and run them over with their car and then continue to my detective work.
Yeah but Sleeping Dogs is kind of a pulpy undercover cop story, there's room for that kind of silliness
Everything that's been shown of Watch Dogs (geez what's with the dog-themed open-world games) portrays it as a deathly serious game about a vigilante going after an oppressive government
Not much space for hijinks from what I've seen
Remember that Aisha Tyler trailer that was basically the weirdest thing ever?
That kind of thing is exactly what Watch Dogs isn't cut out for
GTA IV had a serious-ish plot too, and while it's no saints row it was by no means free of that stuff. I'm sure the same will be true of Watch Dogs.
he likes the game in spite of certain cards and wanted to be able to throw that out there
he's done here but you know where to find him
There is another tendency of people to declare a work or thing wholly evil if it has some objectionable material
That's fine
But some people don't feel that way, and man do those two views clash
Okay I've really tried to step back from this whole thing because I've been worried I won't keep my composure and may jump down some people's throats. But this right here is I think one of the biggest issues with this thread and its general attitude that leads to a lot of regulars who are part of minorities feeling marginalised.
The things a good few of us find objectionable, we do because we are confronted with that bullshit every day in some shape or form, be it aggressively thrown back in our face physically or verbally or through more passive trends in media. And when that opinion is made heard, that something that is incredibly popular is propagating a stereotype or deriding a cause, it is exhausting to have the majority tell us how it's okay and how we have to understand their point of view. Ignorance should always be tackled with education, but when the ignorant try to defend or simply shrug off things that can be seen as bigoted, I cannot blame anyone if their first reaction is to be angry and pissed by that.
Speaking from experience, too often this thread has a dismissive air regarding certain issues. We like to think we're open-minded and accepting, and to a certain extent we are, but constantly and consistently have their been some really choice opinions from those who champion how much these forums or threads have progressed.
The whole thing that triggered this most recent shitstorm is that offended members of a minority were angry they were effectively being talked down to about understanding "context and intent" of a very offensive joke. If you're coming from the position of a disenfranchised person in society and someone who is effectively in the majority (whose rights have never been in jepoardy to the same extent, who hasn't lived a good portion of their life so far in fear because of who they are) tells you that the joke is acceptable because of x-and-y
Then that is a really shitty feeling
I cannot at all speak for any trans forumers but I can fucking sympathise. Personally my issues here have been with the way we've had a murky relationship with racial issues in games. We were all offended by the Whore of the Orient title but not that long ago a vast majority of people here did not know of that term being a racial slur or why. Which honestly was not a problem, but in true fashion instead of ignorance being fixed it had to be explained and defended. When brought up how shitty it is and why it shouldn't be used, in ironic joking or not, that entire discussion was drowned out in more talk of context and intent and etymological trivia that sidestepped the entire thing.
Frankly there is a really disheartening attitude here in this thread of people being sick of being told that what they said was offensive or wrong or insulting. People are scared that they aren't as well-rounded in their worldview as they thought they were, and it leads to everyone patting each other on the back while a fair portion of us are left wondering what was even achieved, especially when we see people happy that they've changed for the better but casually forget of the ignorant things they still sometimes say in day-to-day conversation on the forums.
And it's getting extremely tiring to ask for at the very least the same level of self awareness good people like the GB crew have, who readily admit to being a bunch of straight white dudes with no real perspective on these topics and are in no way offended when called out on that.
I meant that some people can find bits of a work objectionable but still enjoy the work, and for some people that puts them off the whole thing
I don't think that means it is not ok to be offended by the card we are talking about in CAH, for example, or Wonder Pink, or the anal probe weapon in SR IV, or any number of other topics of discussion, and we shouldn't be telling anyone its not ok to be offended by those things, or that those elements aren't offensive.
I admit that I was in the wrong in the CAH argument. Context doesn't necessarily make a joke acceptable, and you should never tell another person they aren't offended by something because you aren't that person.
But if someone is offended by a piece of a work and still chooses to enjoy the rest of the work that isn't offensive, that's ok in my book.
For some people it's the modern analog of the one drop rule: one objectionable thing means the whole thing is objectionable. I personally think viewing things like that is unnessesarily limiting, but if you want to live life like that go ahead. And hey, if you want to categorize the people who are able to ignore an objectionable part of something and enjoy it regardless as objectionable as well, go ahead. But when you start treating them with contempt and starting arguments all the goddamn time at the drop of a pin, then they will start to get defensive and tired and start ignoring your words instead of listening to them.
he likes the game in spite of certain cards and wanted to be able to throw that out there
he's done here but you know where to find him
There is another tendency of people to declare a work or thing wholly evil if it has some objectionable material
That's fine
But some people don't feel that way, and man do those two views clash
Okay I've really tried to step back from this whole thing because I've been worried I won't keep my composure and may jump down some people's throats. But this right here is I think one of the biggest issues with this thread and its general attitude that leads to a lot of regulars who are part of minorities feeling marginalised.
The things a good few of us find objectionable, we do because we are confronted with that bullshit every day in some shape or form, be it aggressively thrown back in our face physically or verbally or through more passive trends in media. And when that opinion is made heard, that something that is incredibly popular is propagating a stereotype or deriding a cause, it is exhausting to have the majority tell us how it's okay and how we have to understand their point of view. Ignorance should always be tackled with education, but when the ignorant try to defend or simply shrug off things that can be seen as bigoted, I cannot blame anyone if their first reaction is to be angry and pissed by that.
Speaking from experience, too often this thread has a dismissive air regarding certain issues. We like to think we're open-minded and accepting, and to a certain extent we are, but constantly and consistently have their been some really choice opinions from those who champion how much these forums or threads have progressed.
The whole thing that triggered this most recent shitstorm is that offended members of a minority were angry they were effectively being talked down to about understanding "context and intent" of a very offensive joke. If you're coming from the position of a disenfranchised person in society and someone who is effectively in the majority (whose rights have never been in jepoardy to the same extent, who hasn't lived a good portion of their life so far in fear because of who they are) tells you that the joke is acceptable because of x-and-y
Then that is a really shitty feeling
I cannot at all speak for any trans forumers but I can fucking sympathise. Personally my issues here have been with the way we've had a murky relationship with racial issues in games. We were all offended by the Whore of the Orient title but not that long ago a vast majority of people here did not know of that term being a racial slur or why. Which honestly was not a problem, but in true fashion instead of ignorance being fixed it had to be explained and defended. When brought up how shitty it is and why it shouldn't be used, in ironic joking or not, that entire discussion was drowned out in more talk of context and intent and etymological trivia that sidestepped the entire thing.
Frankly there is a really disheartening attitude here in this thread of people being sick of being told that what they said was offensive or wrong or insulting. People are scared that they aren't as well-rounded in their worldview as they thought they were, and it leads to everyone patting each other on the back while a fair portion of us are left wondering what was even achieved, especially when we see people happy that they've changed for the better but casually forget of the ignorant things they still sometimes say in day-to-day conversation on the forums.
And it's getting extremely tiring to ask for at the very least the same level of self awareness good people like the GB crew have, who readily admit to being a bunch of straight white dudes with no real perspective on these topics and are in no way offended when called out on that.
I meant that some people can find bits of a work objectionable but still enjoy the work, and for some people that puts them off the whole thing
I don't think that means it is not ok to be offended by the card we are talking about in CAH, for example, or Wonder Pink, or the anal probe weapon in SR IV, or any number of other topics of discussion, and we shouldn't be telling anyone its not ok to be offended by those things, or that those elements aren't offensive.
I admit that I was in the wrong in the CAH argument. Context doesn't necessarily make a joke acceptable, and you should never tell another person they aren't offended by something because you aren't that person.
But if someone is offended by a piece of a work and still chooses to enjoy the rest of the work that isn't offensive, that's ok in my book.
For some people it's the modern analog of the one drop rule: one objectionable thing means the whole thing is objectionable. I personally think viewing things like that is unnessesarily limiting, but if you want to live life like that go ahead. And hey, if you want to categorize the people who are able to ignore an objectionable part of something and enjoy it regardless as objectionable as well, go ahead. But when you start treating them with contempt and starting arguments all the goddamn time at the drop of a pin, then they will start to get defensive and tired and start ignoring your words instead of listening to them.
I don't think you should ignore the objectionable parts
It's important to understand they aren't ok and why
But it's also OK to still like the thing they come from
AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
congrats to people who have the luxury that they dont feel bombarded by terrible things and don't have to try to carefully pick and choose so that they can find things that arent terrible
he likes the game in spite of certain cards and wanted to be able to throw that out there
he's done here but you know where to find him
There is another tendency of people to declare a work or thing wholly evil if it has some objectionable material
That's fine
But some people don't feel that way, and man do those two views clash
Okay I've really tried to step back from this whole thing because I've been worried I won't keep my composure and may jump down some people's throats. But this right here is I think one of the biggest issues with this thread and its general attitude that leads to a lot of regulars who are part of minorities feeling marginalised.
The things a good few of us find objectionable, we do because we are confronted with that bullshit every day in some shape or form, be it aggressively thrown back in our face physically or verbally or through more passive trends in media. And when that opinion is made heard, that something that is incredibly popular is propagating a stereotype or deriding a cause, it is exhausting to have the majority tell us how it's okay and how we have to understand their point of view. Ignorance should always be tackled with education, but when the ignorant try to defend or simply shrug off things that can be seen as bigoted, I cannot blame anyone if their first reaction is to be angry and pissed by that.
Speaking from experience, too often this thread has a dismissive air regarding certain issues. We like to think we're open-minded and accepting, and to a certain extent we are, but constantly and consistently have their been some really choice opinions from those who champion how much these forums or threads have progressed.
The whole thing that triggered this most recent shitstorm is that offended members of a minority were angry they were effectively being talked down to about understanding "context and intent" of a very offensive joke. If you're coming from the position of a disenfranchised person in society and someone who is effectively in the majority (whose rights have never been in jepoardy to the same extent, who hasn't lived a good portion of their life so far in fear because of who they are) tells you that the joke is acceptable because of x-and-y
Then that is a really shitty feeling
I cannot at all speak for any trans forumers but I can fucking sympathise. Personally my issues here have been with the way we've had a murky relationship with racial issues in games. We were all offended by the Whore of the Orient title but not that long ago a vast majority of people here did not know of that term being a racial slur or why. Which honestly was not a problem, but in true fashion instead of ignorance being fixed it had to be explained and defended. When brought up how shitty it is and why it shouldn't be used, in ironic joking or not, that entire discussion was drowned out in more talk of context and intent and etymological trivia that sidestepped the entire thing.
Frankly there is a really disheartening attitude here in this thread of people being sick of being told that what they said was offensive or wrong or insulting. People are scared that they aren't as well-rounded in their worldview as they thought they were, and it leads to everyone patting each other on the back while a fair portion of us are left wondering what was even achieved, especially when we see people happy that they've changed for the better but casually forget of the ignorant things they still sometimes say in day-to-day conversation on the forums.
And it's getting extremely tiring to ask for at the very least the same level of self awareness good people like the GB crew have, who readily admit to being a bunch of straight white dudes with no real perspective on these topics and are in no way offended when called out on that.
I meant that some people can find bits of a work objectionable but still enjoy the work, and for some people that puts them off the whole thing
I don't think that means it is not ok to be offended by the card we are talking about in CAH, for example, or Wonder Pink, or the anal probe weapon in SR IV, or any number of other topics of discussion, and we shouldn't be telling anyone its not ok to be offended by those things, or that those elements aren't offensive.
I admit that I was in the wrong in the CAH argument. Context doesn't necessarily make a joke acceptable, and you should never tell another person they aren't offended by something because you aren't that person.
But if someone is offended by a piece of a work and still chooses to enjoy the rest of the work that isn't offensive, that's ok in my book.
For some people it's the modern analog of the one drop rule: one objectionable thing means the whole thing is objectionable. I personally think viewing things like that is unnessesarily limiting, but if you want to live life like that go ahead. And hey, if you want to categorize the people who are able to ignore an objectionable part of something and enjoy it regardless as objectionable as well, go ahead. But when you start treating them with contempt and starting arguments all the goddamn time at the drop of a pin, then they will start to get defensive and tired and start ignoring your words instead of listening to them.
I don't think you should ignore the objectionable parts
It's important to understand they aren't ok and why
But it's also OK to still like the thing they come from
I agree, ignore was a poor word choice on my part. There's people who fully understand the issues but who are still able to enjoy the thing as a whole regardless.
You know, if a game transferred so many Xbox Live user names to individual enemies that come in waves in a beat 'em up that could be pretty entertaining. You could see how many times Trunks420 appeared and was killed by your hand.
Or feel the deep shame that would come with being taken out by M4ST3RCH13FOWNZ.
he likes the game in spite of certain cards and wanted to be able to throw that out there
he's done here but you know where to find him
There is another tendency of people to declare a work or thing wholly evil if it has some objectionable material
That's fine
But some people don't feel that way, and man do those two views clash
Okay I've really tried to step back from this whole thing because I've been worried I won't keep my composure and may jump down some people's throats. But this right here is I think one of the biggest issues with this thread and its general attitude that leads to a lot of regulars who are part of minorities feeling marginalised.
The things a good few of us find objectionable, we do because we are confronted with that bullshit every day in some shape or form, be it aggressively thrown back in our face physically or verbally or through more passive trends in media. And when that opinion is made heard, that something that is incredibly popular is propagating a stereotype or deriding a cause, it is exhausting to have the majority tell us how it's okay and how we have to understand their point of view. Ignorance should always be tackled with education, but when the ignorant try to defend or simply shrug off things that can be seen as bigoted, I cannot blame anyone if their first reaction is to be angry and pissed by that.
Speaking from experience, too often this thread has a dismissive air regarding certain issues. We like to think we're open-minded and accepting, and to a certain extent we are, but constantly and consistently have their been some really choice opinions from those who champion how much these forums or threads have progressed.
The whole thing that triggered this most recent shitstorm is that offended members of a minority were angry they were effectively being talked down to about understanding "context and intent" of a very offensive joke. If you're coming from the position of a disenfranchised person in society and someone who is effectively in the majority (whose rights have never been in jepoardy to the same extent, who hasn't lived a good portion of their life so far in fear because of who they are) tells you that the joke is acceptable because of x-and-y
Then that is a really shitty feeling
I cannot at all speak for any trans forumers but I can fucking sympathise. Personally my issues here have been with the way we've had a murky relationship with racial issues in games. We were all offended by the Whore of the Orient title but not that long ago a vast majority of people here did not know of that term being a racial slur or why. Which honestly was not a problem, but in true fashion instead of ignorance being fixed it had to be explained and defended. When brought up how shitty it is and why it shouldn't be used, in ironic joking or not, that entire discussion was drowned out in more talk of context and intent and etymological trivia that sidestepped the entire thing.
Frankly there is a really disheartening attitude here in this thread of people being sick of being told that what they said was offensive or wrong or insulting. People are scared that they aren't as well-rounded in their worldview as they thought they were, and it leads to everyone patting each other on the back while a fair portion of us are left wondering what was even achieved, especially when we see people happy that they've changed for the better but casually forget of the ignorant things they still sometimes say in day-to-day conversation on the forums.
And it's getting extremely tiring to ask for at the very least the same level of self awareness good people like the GB crew have, who readily admit to being a bunch of straight white dudes with no real perspective on these topics and are in no way offended when called out on that.
I meant that some people can find bits of a work objectionable but still enjoy the work, and for some people that puts them off the whole thing
I don't think that means it is not ok to be offended by the card we are talking about in CAH, for example, or Wonder Pink, or the anal probe weapon in SR IV, or any number of other topics of discussion, and we shouldn't be telling anyone its not ok to be offended by those things, or that those elements aren't offensive.
I admit that I was in the wrong in the CAH argument. Context doesn't necessarily make a joke acceptable, and you should never tell another person they aren't offended by something because you aren't that person.
But if someone is offended by a piece of a work and still chooses to enjoy the rest of the work that isn't offensive, that's ok in my book.
For some people it's the modern analog of the one drop rule: one objectionable thing means the whole thing is objectionable. I personally think viewing things like that is unnessesarily limiting, but if you want to live life like that go ahead. And hey, if you want to categorize the people who are able to ignore an objectionable part of something and enjoy it regardless as objectionable as well, go ahead. But when you start treating them with contempt and starting arguments all the goddamn time at the drop of a pin, then they will start to get defensive and tired and start ignoring your words instead of listening to them.
I don't think you should ignore the objectionable parts
It's important to understand they aren't ok and why
But it's also OK to still like the thing they come from
I agree, ignore was a poor word choice on my part. There's people who fully understand the issues but who are still able to enjoy the thing as a whole regardless.
I think part of the issue is the concept of "fully understand"
Most of the time in a situation like that one I tend to bow to the feelings of the individuals affected most by problematic media since as a straight white cisgendered man I don't feel offended deeply by most media and generally let other people voice their thoughts and feelings and try to take those to heart as best I can.
I'm always going to be less impacted by and less educated about these issues and there isn't much I can do about the stupid things I might say or do besides take a step back and apologize.
Understand as well as possible without being affected by.
Yes that's the very definition of privilege and yeah that's how I get to enjoy basically anything because nothing can offend me.
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AntimatterDevo Was RightGates of SteelRegistered Userregular
edited September 2013
the thing is i feel fucking overwhelmed by shitty media at times and it takes a goddamned herculean effort to find things that aren't problematic but i do it so that i can enjoy things without caveats
there are things i do enjoy with caveats, but I'd prefer to not have to deal with it
congrats to people who have the luxury that they dont feel bombarded by terrible things and don't have to try to carefully pick and choose so that they can find things that arent terrible
I think this is part of what was making T4CT upset (Mike apologies if you are watching and I misinterpret)
Many of us feel bombarded by terrible things in the media. Flippant attitudes towards things that affect us personally, jokes about them, things of that nature.
Some people can find those things offensive but still enjoy the thing they are a part of.
But I don't think that assuming that just because someone can look past something and enjoy it that must mean it doesn't affect them, or hurt them is productive
Anyway my point is I feel like being a privileged person it's my responsibility to educate myself on these things. I try to read and take into account all the things that come up in these discussions but there will always be a certain element that I can't get rid of.
Because I am not a person affected by problematic media in the same ways I can't fully understand all the things that make it problematic right off the bat, but I CAN try to empathize with the people who it does affect.
At this point its a lot of the same people reiterating the same thing with the same people hitting "agree" in circles. So I guess in a way its like every other circle jerk on this forum, but its one specifically about perceived jerks going in circles.
Anyway my point is I feel like being a privileged person it's my responsibility to educate myself on these things. I try to read and take into account all the things that come up in these discussions but there will always be a certain element that I can't get rid of.
Because I am not a person affected by problematic media in the same ways I can't fully understand all the things that make it problematic right off the bat, but I CAN try to empathize with the people who it does affect.
The attitude I see conveyed here though, at least as I perceive it, is that once you empathize you should join in on condemning
And sorry, but it just doesn't work that way
I can see that something might offend you horribly, and that's unfortunate, but I am not obligated to feel the same way just because I realize this fact
he likes the game in spite of certain cards and wanted to be able to throw that out there
he's done here but you know where to find him
There is another tendency of people to declare a work or thing wholly evil if it has some objectionable material
That's fine
But some people don't feel that way, and man do those two views clash
Okay I've really tried to step back from this whole thing because I've been worried I won't keep my composure and may jump down some people's throats. But this right here is I think one of the biggest issues with this thread and its general attitude that leads to a lot of regulars who are part of minorities feeling marginalised.
The things a good few of us find objectionable, we do because we are confronted with that bullshit every day in some shape or form, be it aggressively thrown back in our face physically or verbally or through more passive trends in media. And when that opinion is made heard, that something that is incredibly popular is propagating a stereotype or deriding a cause, it is exhausting to have the majority tell us how it's okay and how we have to understand their point of view. Ignorance should always be tackled with education, but when the ignorant try to defend or simply shrug off things that can be seen as bigoted, I cannot blame anyone if their first reaction is to be angry and pissed by that.
Speaking from experience, too often this thread has a dismissive air regarding certain issues. We like to think we're open-minded and accepting, and to a certain extent we are, but constantly and consistently have their been some really choice opinions from those who champion how much these forums or threads have progressed.
The whole thing that triggered this most recent shitstorm is that offended members of a minority were angry they were effectively being talked down to about understanding "context and intent" of a very offensive joke. If you're coming from the position of a disenfranchised person in society and someone who is effectively in the majority (whose rights have never been in jepoardy to the same extent, who hasn't lived a good portion of their life so far in fear because of who they are) tells you that the joke is acceptable because of x-and-y
Then that is a really shitty feeling
I cannot at all speak for any trans forumers but I can fucking sympathise. Personally my issues here have been with the way we've had a murky relationship with racial issues in games. We were all offended by the Whore of the Orient title but not that long ago a vast majority of people here did not know of that term being a racial slur or why. Which honestly was not a problem, but in true fashion instead of ignorance being fixed it had to be explained and defended. When brought up how shitty it is and why it shouldn't be used, in ironic joking or not, that entire discussion was drowned out in more talk of context and intent and etymological trivia that sidestepped the entire thing.
Frankly there is a really disheartening attitude here in this thread of people being sick of being told that what they said was offensive or wrong or insulting. People are scared that they aren't as well-rounded in their worldview as they thought they were, and it leads to everyone patting each other on the back while a fair portion of us are left wondering what was even achieved, especially when we see people happy that they've changed for the better but casually forget of the ignorant things they still sometimes say in day-to-day conversation on the forums.
And it's getting extremely tiring to ask for at the very least the same level of self awareness good people like the GB crew have, who readily admit to being a bunch of straight white dudes with no real perspective on these topics and are in no way offended when called out on that.
I meant that some people can find bits of a work objectionable but still enjoy the work, and for some people that puts them off the whole thing
I don't think that means it is not ok to be offended by the card we are talking about in CAH, for example, or Wonder Pink, or the anal probe weapon in SR IV, or any number of other topics of discussion, and we shouldn't be telling anyone its not ok to be offended by those things, or that those elements aren't offensive.
I admit that I was in the wrong in the CAH argument. Context doesn't necessarily make a joke acceptable, and you should never tell another person they aren't offended by something because you aren't that person.
But if someone is offended by a piece of a work and still chooses to enjoy the rest of the work that isn't offensive, that's ok in my book.
For some people it's the modern analog of the one drop rule: one objectionable thing means the whole thing is objectionable. I personally think viewing things like that is unnessesarily limiting, but if you want to live life like that go ahead. And hey, if you want to categorize the people who are able to ignore an objectionable part of something and enjoy it regardless as objectionable as well, go ahead. But when you start treating them with contempt and starting arguments all the goddamn time at the drop of a pin, then they will start to get defensive and tired and start ignoring your words instead of listening to them.
I don't think you should ignore the objectionable parts
It's important to understand they aren't ok and why
But it's also OK to still like the thing they come from
I agree, ignore was a poor word choice on my part. There's people who fully understand the issues but who are still able to enjoy the thing as a whole regardless.
I think part of the issue is the concept of "fully understand"
You're right, that it's impossible for someone else to truly fully understand the issues another is facing. I think the problem is the assumption that if people truly fully understood then they'd be on your side and then treating them as liars and/or as traitors for saying they understand but are still able to enjoy it.
Posts
GTA IV had a serious-ish plot too, and while it's no saints row it was by no means free of that stuff. I'm sure the same will be true of Watch Dogs.
@The Bogey That's Senor Balls what in the world happened
cut short before its time
The PS3/360 versions are better for single player
(i wonder if i'll get caught up on mspa before he does)
http://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/27800322/#Comment_27800322
XBox LIVE: Bogestrom | Destiny
PSN: Bogestrom
For some people it's the modern analog of the one drop rule: one objectionable thing means the whole thing is objectionable. I personally think viewing things like that is unnessesarily limiting, but if you want to live life like that go ahead. And hey, if you want to categorize the people who are able to ignore an objectionable part of something and enjoy it regardless as objectionable as well, go ahead. But when you start treating them with contempt and starting arguments all the goddamn time at the drop of a pin, then they will start to get defensive and tired and start ignoring your words instead of listening to them.
hahahahahah
I don't think you should ignore the objectionable parts
It's important to understand they aren't ok and why
But it's also OK to still like the thing they come from
this is my imaginary OP
I agree, ignore was a poor word choice on my part. There's people who fully understand the issues but who are still able to enjoy the thing as a whole regardless.
Or feel the deep shame that would come with being taken out by M4ST3RCH13FOWNZ.
I think part of the issue is the concept of "fully understand"
I'm always going to be less impacted by and less educated about these issues and there isn't much I can do about the stupid things I might say or do besides take a step back and apologize.
Yes that's the very definition of privilege and yeah that's how I get to enjoy basically anything because nothing can offend me.
there are things i do enjoy with caveats, but I'd prefer to not have to deal with it
I think this is part of what was making T4CT upset (Mike apologies if you are watching and I misinterpret)
Many of us feel bombarded by terrible things in the media. Flippant attitudes towards things that affect us personally, jokes about them, things of that nature.
Some people can find those things offensive but still enjoy the thing they are a part of.
But I don't think that assuming that just because someone can look past something and enjoy it that must mean it doesn't affect them, or hurt them is productive
Because I am not a person affected by problematic media in the same ways I can't fully understand all the things that make it problematic right off the bat, but I CAN try to empathize with the people who it does affect.
Except for the part that, you know, they would never ever just straight-up take the Apple and Droid logos
but it kind of seems like a really really good idea
Megabyte punch is so much fun guys but holy shit do you need a coop partner
The attitude I see conveyed here though, at least as I perceive it, is that once you empathize you should join in on condemning
And sorry, but it just doesn't work that way
I can see that something might offend you horribly, and that's unfortunate, but I am not obligated to feel the same way just because I realize this fact
Does anybody care?
You're right, that it's impossible for someone else to truly fully understand the issues another is facing. I think the problem is the assumption that if people truly fully understood then they'd be on your side and then treating them as liars and/or as traitors for saying they understand but are still able to enjoy it.
Is that game
Is it less crazy than the other ones in terms of systems
Because I always think total war looks awesome but I just can't wrap my head around it