I think everyone is missng the most important part of the torture mission.
At the end, the FIB tells Trevor to kill the guy. But he saves him in the end. Then during the drive, Trevor explains that torture is useless. Its a way for the monster to feed his sick fantasy or in this case the FIB agent's. Its useless, which is a slap in the face of Bush and his people who said that torture like waterboarding is a very necessary evil and it gets results. While making the player do this is a bit far, I think it was a way to give art a message. And that's why I have no problem with the torture mission or Trevor.
The thing is
didn't they actually get the information they wanted from the guy? So it didn't really seem like the game was validating Trevor's statements.
Granted I haven't finished the game so I don't know if it comes back and bites them in the ass
The guy said he'd talk. Multiple times before you start the torture. But the FIB guy wants it done anyways. Just to make sure you aren't lying.
If you float, you're a witch. If you drowned, you wasn't. Either way we get what we want.
splinter cell conviction let you torture enemies for info, often right before offing them right there. bulletstorm was game about basically killing enemies in the most humilating way possible. trevor, in a rampage, cracks a waterboarding joke.
sure, you know torture is "bad" but how often does video game violence affect you? chances are people getting run over is a lot less funny in real life than it is in GTA. again, you are all taking my stance and making it very personalized when I am not explicitly talking about you. there are plenty of people (I.E., the general populace who all went out to buy this game and not us) who are blissfully unaware that torture is a thing our government does. and even if you are painfully aware of it, then you should encourage people having a dialouge. we clearly can have games that handle substance abuse, mass killings, assassinations, and even fucking cancer; but GTA makes you sad and think about death and stuff and it's game over man.
Like I said, I'm all in favor of the conversation, but I don't think Grand Theft Auto is the game that ought to be leading the charge given the rest of the game's content. Its more than a little bit hypocritical. If you want an example of the "torture is bad" message done right, see Metal Gear Solid 1 or 3. Both of these games reward you for killing as few people as possible, and have a "war is hell" message running the whole way through; its not just something that's brought out for 5 minutes to earn edginess points.
I doubt a game that was destined to make 800 million in one day needed to toss anything in for "edgy-ness". just because something made you uncomfortable doesn't mean it didn't fit the narrative (terrible people killing lots of innocent people for financial gain). it makes total sense, especially since GTA protagonists often end up doing the government's dirty work for them.
I actually thought they would be harsher on the merryweather group, who was clearly a blackwater style PMC outfit.
I think everyone is missng the most important part of the torture mission.
At the end, the FIB tells Trevor to kill the guy. But he saves him in the end. Then during the drive, Trevor explains that torture is useless. Its a way for the monster to feed his sick fantasy or in this case the FIB agent's. Its useless, which is a slap in the face of Bush and his people who said that torture like waterboarding is a very necessary evil and it gets results. While making the player do this is a bit far, I think it was a way to give art a message. And that's why I have no problem with the torture mission or Trevor.
The thing is
didn't they actually get the information they wanted from the guy? So it didn't really seem like the game was validating Trevor's statements.
Granted I haven't finished the game so I don't know if it comes back and bites them in the ass
Well
The guy being tortured would've spoken without the torture, he just didn';t know what they wanted. He was a genuinely innocent tech guy put in a shitty situation, asked to answer questions thrown at him in a threatening manner. Everyone would second guess their answers and he was no exception so they tortured him. Despite the fact that he was willing to tell them everything anyway
yeah I got that impression, since
they weren't giving him time to remember. So the sadist part definitely fits. But the fact he can remember some things after the torture kinda undermines the message. Like it definitely seemed unnecessary but it wasn't something that yielded no results.
It was more they could have taken a different avenue.
0
Options
Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
Ooh, that's a super interesting read, turns out they call GTA:O instances (inside buildings etc) 'Coronas'. There was a LOT of bug crunching after the spring delay, too.
(Peds dropping coffee cups, phones that instantly exploded, Hah!)
Ooh, that's a super interesting read, turns out they call GTA:O instances (inside buildings etc) 'Coronas'. There was a LOT of bug crunching after the spring delay, too.
(Peds dropping coffee cups, phones that instantly exploded, Hah!)
I think everyone is missng the most important part of the torture mission.
At the end, the FIB tells Trevor to kill the guy. But he saves him in the end. Then during the drive, Trevor explains that torture is useless. Its a way for the monster to feed his sick fantasy or in this case the FIB agent's. Its useless, which is a slap in the face of Bush and his people who said that torture like waterboarding is a very necessary evil and it gets results. While making the player do this is a bit far, I think it was a way to give art a message. And that's why I have no problem with the torture mission or Trevor.
The thing is
didn't they actually get the information they wanted from the guy? So it didn't really seem like the game was validating Trevor's statements.
Granted I haven't finished the game so I don't know if it comes back and bites them in the ass
Well
The guy being tortured would've spoken without the torture, he just didn';t know what they wanted. He was a genuinely innocent tech guy put in a shitty situation, asked to answer questions thrown at him in a threatening manner. Everyone would second guess their answers and he was no exception so they tortured him. Despite the fact that he was willing to tell them everything anyway
Yeah, he didn't know what was going on. A decent interrogation like any non-torture crime show would have gotten the information, they just needed to say what they wanted. Especially since they had a live feed on who they were looking at. 'Distinguishing features? Okay, we've got half a dozen guys with beards, anything? Does he smoke? Left or right handed?', etc.
Moving away from the big debates and back to gameplay stuff, do you increase your special stat by just turning it on, even if you don't do anything with it?
Do I have to go on a killing spree as Mike or Trevor to improve it, or can I just watch the traffic in slow motion?
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
0
Options
Psychotic OneThe Lord of No PantsParts UnknownRegistered Userregular
So I finished the first heist (made the Payday 2 Jewelry store robbery look like a bunch of nubs) and got introduced to everyones favorite mad man...
and then they drop the redneck meth bomb on the Lost and the Damned main character and all that development done in the DLC in IV is gone in an instant. Oh well. Trevor is a delightful shade of psycho
So I finished the first heist (made the Payday 2 Jewelry store robbery look like a bunch of nubs) and got introduced to everyones favorite mad man...
and then they drop the redneck meth bomb on the Lost and the Damned main character and all that development done in the DLC in IV is gone in an instant. Oh well. Trevor is a delightful shade of psycho
Oh thank god somebody else gets it! I don't think that many people played the DLC, but I did, so that instantly poisoned my opinion of Trevor.
(Trevor's first appearance spoilers)
Although it could be argued he was putting Johnny out of his misery at that point, it definitely sucked that after everything, Johnny never moved on after all and got dragged into Ashley's "lifestyle". Fuck you Ashley.
Stop trying to make me feel bad Rockstar! You're too good at it!
splinter cell conviction let you torture enemies for info, often right before offing them right there. bulletstorm was game about basically killing enemies in the most humilating way possible. trevor, in a rampage, cracks a waterboarding joke.
sure, you know torture is "bad" but how often does video game violence affect you? chances are people getting run over is a lot less funny in real life than it is in GTA. again, you are all taking my stance and making it very personalized when I am not explicitly talking about you. there are plenty of people (I.E., the general populace who all went out to buy this game and not us) who are blissfully unaware that torture is a thing our government does. and even if you are painfully aware of it, then you should encourage people having a dialouge. we clearly can have games that handle substance abuse, mass killings, assassinations, and even fucking cancer; but GTA makes you sad and think about death and stuff and it's game over man.
Like I said, I'm all in favor of the conversation, but I don't think Grand Theft Auto is the game that ought to be leading the charge given the rest of the game's content. Its more than a little bit hypocritical. If you want an example of the "torture is bad" message done right, see Metal Gear Solid 1 or 3. Both of these games reward you for killing as few people as possible, and have a "war is hell" message running the whole way through; its not just something that's brought out for 5 minutes to earn edginess points.
Now that I'm at home and not at work where I'm talking into my phone about torture, I can say more.
I believe GTA is a great place to start the conversation. It's not like we are going to be playing Mario and find Peach getting raped by Bowser (you know that's happening. Or that bitch is giving it up anyhow. Fuck you, Peach! Why do you get caught so damn much?) so we can talk about rape and bestiality. But GTA has a unique theme that can do this. Its a game where you play bad people doing bad things, sometimes for good reasons. But most of the time its for bad reasons. Sure, MGS has touched upon it before, but were you the torturer or the torturee that time? Was it happening to you, or were you doing it? It reminds me of the No Russian mission in MW2. You did something terrible to try to earn your place into a terrorist group so you could stop them from doing a bigger, badder thing.
+1
Options
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Hey 100%ers, just realised something; Franklin is the only character whose Strangers and Freaks missions count towards anything. I've been playing as Trevor for a few hours and made no progress on that blue bar. Turns out yep, only Franklin's are counted towards the total.
I'm sure there's a buncha stuff considered "Miscellaneous" that isn't covered in the guides either; I'm up to 9/16 and most definitely haven't done half the stuff officially considered the requirements.
Oh brilliant
0
Options
Zilla36021st Century. |She/Her|Trans* Woman In Aviators Firing A Bazooka. ⚛️Registered Userregular
In other news I bought a Bugatti Veyron last night and spent another 100k on it in the modshop, then.... I drove it off a cliff on my first drive out.
Have i just blown over a million dollars? The car wasn't in the garage when I respawned.
Word on the street is that if you mod a car and destroy/abandon it, it will show up in one of the police impound yards so you don't lose all the money you put into it.
except rape and child porn aren't themes normally explored in video gamez, while indiscriminate violence is prevalent among... pretty much all popular games
it's great we can just lump all the world's major problems in one nice neat package marked "fucked up" and never look at or discuss those items maturely.
You sure are creating soome Strawmen here bro
I can and do discuss these topics maturely
That doesn't really mean I want to simulate being the perpetrator of these things.
What I'm saying is; it's perfectly fine for people to be deeply uncomfortable with the interactive torture scene. The assumption that simulating being literal torturers would somehow make people reflect on torture in real life better seems kinda flawed to me. I used the examples of rape and child porn to illustrate just how flawed that line of reasoning can be, and it applies to torture too.
There's no straw man, he's pointing out that your objection makes no sense. The torture sequence forces the player to self reflect on the typically meaningless and mundane ultraviolence prevalent in AAA games like this or CoD. It's the opposite of No Russian. It uses something shocking to show that human beings are human beings even within the game, not just targets to shoot down. It's not cynical, mindless depravity like No Russian was.
except rape and child porn aren't themes normally explored in video gamez, while indiscriminate violence is prevalent among... pretty much all popular games
it's great we can just lump all the world's major problems in one nice neat package marked "fucked up" and never look at or discuss those items maturely.
You sure are creating soome Strawmen here bro
I can and do discuss these topics maturely
That doesn't really mean I want to simulate being the perpetrator of these things.
What I'm saying is; it's perfectly fine for people to be deeply uncomfortable with the interactive torture scene. The assumption that simulating being literal torturers would somehow make people reflect on torture in real life better seems kinda flawed to me. I used the examples of rape and child porn to illustrate just how flawed that line of reasoning can be, and it applies to torture too.
There's no straw man, he's pointing out that your objection makes no sense. The torture sequence forces the player to self reflect on the typically meaningless and mundane ultraviolence prevalent in AAA games like this or CoD. It's the opposite of No Russian. It uses something shocking to show that human beings are human beings even within the game, not just targets to shoot down. It's not cynical, mindless depravity like No Russian was.
Thing about "No Russian" is you didn't actually have to murder the unarmed civilians at the beginning. You could get away with not firing a single shot until the swat cops show up, at which point it becomes a matter of self-defense. The point is, I could at very least choose not to take an active part in the atrocity about to be committed, wheras GTA refuses to continue until I take an active role in a dude's torture.
I got a Gold on it :winky: . I liked the little details like removing the guys tooth first made him talk funny for the remainder of the mission, even all the way to the airport. THAT'S commitment by Rockstar to getting things right. Just think, they told that voice actor "OK do all that dialogue again, but this time as if you have just had a tooth ripped out of your mouth by some rusty pliers"
I used every device just to see what would happen, I never had to use the adrenaline shot though. What has to happen where that comes into play?
so i've heard you can manipulate stock prices outside missions by screwing up businesses and investing in their rivals
only problem is i have no idea how to do this, i never see any vans or trucks driving about, you can't go inside shops to shoot them up
how exactly am i supposed to blow things up if i cant find them?
I'm starting to think this just isn't implemented (yet).
In my game, Bean Machine is bottomed out around -340%, so I found a couple of Cool Beans stores, and did drive-bys, shot up their windows, sticky bombed their outside furniture, and set everything on fire with a jerry can.
Then I watched the market while sleep-saving to pass time. Not only did Bean Machine not go up, it actually went down another 5%! Cool Beans also went up another 5%. I reloaded my save to before I made the investment and gave up on trying to manipulate the markets.
In other news I bought a Bugatti Veyron last night and spent another 100k on it in the modshop, then.... I drove it off a cliff on my first drive out.
Have i just blown over a million dollars? The car wasn't in the garage when I respawned.
Word on the street is that if you mod a car and destroy/abandon it, it will show up in one of the police impound yards so you don't lose all the money you put into it.
But it's buggy as fuck and won't always work so don't count on it.
$100,000 Red Shark Cash Card - £1.99
$200,000 Tiger Shark Cash Card - £3.49
$500,000 Bull Shark Cash Card - £6.99
$1,250,000 Great White Shark Cash Card - £13.49
A car that costs $1 million in the game's single-player mode can be bought for much less in Online - more like $150,000. Properties are also cheaper - the most expensive you can own is $400,000.
And you can only own a single property. When you trade houses you get a rebate on the place you've moved from, so you can re-use your in-game credit to some extent.
But while some things are cheaper, others are more expensive. You'll pay more for weapon and car mods, and most are initially out of normal financial reach. Yet any potential access to these items can only be unlocked when your character ranks up.
This means that, even with extra money from cash packs, a low-level character will have few options to initially spend it on. Players start with the option to buy just pistols and a single set of tyres.
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Noted. >:3
Also Social Club appears to have stopped shitting itself. I got notified that Big Isy has done 25% of his flying under bridges, so I immediately went to the airstrip to attempt to outshine him, only to get sidetracked into burning down a house and then some other stuff and man
If you watch the tv, I highly recommend watching the show about Jack Howitzer. My God that was some hilarious stuff. Is there more than one episode of it ?
except rape and child porn aren't themes normally explored in video gamez, while indiscriminate violence is prevalent among... pretty much all popular games
it's great we can just lump all the world's major problems in one nice neat package marked "fucked up" and never look at or discuss those items maturely.
You sure are creating soome Strawmen here bro
I can and do discuss these topics maturely
That doesn't really mean I want to simulate being the perpetrator of these things.
What I'm saying is; it's perfectly fine for people to be deeply uncomfortable with the interactive torture scene. The assumption that simulating being literal torturers would somehow make people reflect on torture in real life better seems kinda flawed to me. I used the examples of rape and child porn to illustrate just how flawed that line of reasoning can be, and it applies to torture too.
There's no straw man, he's pointing out that your objection makes no sense. The torture sequence forces the player to self reflect on the typically meaningless and mundane ultraviolence prevalent in AAA games like this or CoD. It's the opposite of No Russian. It uses something shocking to show that human beings are human beings even within the game, not just targets to shoot down. It's not cynical, mindless depravity like No Russian was.
Thing about "No Russian" is you didn't actually have to murder the unarmed civilians at the beginning. You could get away with not firing a single shot until the swat cops show up, at which point it becomes a matter of self-defense. The point is, I could at very least choose not to take an active part in the atrocity about to be committed, wheras GTA refuses to continue until I take an active role in a dude's torture.
There were parts of that scene I really liked - Michael's reaction, Trevor's final rant on the subject. But I almost think it would have been more powerful if you could have just stayed with Michael, hearing what was going on over the radio, and Michael getting increasingly freaked out/panicked.
Hell, you can already...
...pass the mission by shooting a random guy...
...which really says a lot.
That said, "No Russian" was an alarmist cash-in on terrorism fears. "No one is safe! They could start shooting up an airport any any time!" There was no message to it.
WANG purge? Where's the verification form. I'll be playing, I have the game, I'm just waiting for my girlfriend to get back from the States in a few weeks, and would like to not be kicked out of the group if that's okay.
WANG purge? Where's the verification form. I'll be playing, I have the game, I'm just waiting for my girlfriend to get back from the States in a few weeks, and would like to not be kicked out of the group if that's okay.
Both are in my sig - here is the Verification Form. If you're already in the Social Club, this is the form to fill out.
MordaRazgromМорда РазгромRuling the Taffer KingdomRegistered Userregular
I just gotta say that it really is something that a game can provoke a discussion about morality and such. Most games, while giving you ample opportunity to be a horrible person, will shield you from the more unsavory elements of violence, you never really get a connection to what you are shooting because they are all painfully obviously digital. Sparking a conversation is something that i think the story writers would be very proud of. Even if they are being lambasted, because i am pretty sure that it was their intent anyway.
Monster Hunter Tri code/username: 1MF42Z (Morda)
WiiU Username: MordaRazgrom
Steam Username: MordaRazgrom
WoW/Diablo 3 Battlenet Battletag: MordaRazgrom#1755
Me and my wife have a gamer YouTube page if interested www.youtube.com/TeamMarriage
+1
Options
Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
WANG purge? Where's the verification form. I'll be playing, I have the game, I'm just waiting for my girlfriend to get back from the States in a few weeks, and would like to not be kicked out of the group if that's okay.
Both are in my sig - here is the Verification Form. If you're already in the Social Club, this is the form to fill out.
Cheers bro. Like I said, I'm not active right now and may end up waiting a couple of weeks until I start playing, but I totally have the game and will be an active participant, so don't want to get cut if it's not necessary.
Posts
The guy said he'd talk. Multiple times before you start the torture. But the FIB guy wants it done anyways. Just to make sure you aren't lying.
If you float, you're a witch. If you drowned, you wasn't. Either way we get what we want.
Like I said, I'm all in favor of the conversation, but I don't think Grand Theft Auto is the game that ought to be leading the charge given the rest of the game's content. Its more than a little bit hypocritical. If you want an example of the "torture is bad" message done right, see Metal Gear Solid 1 or 3. Both of these games reward you for killing as few people as possible, and have a "war is hell" message running the whole way through; its not just something that's brought out for 5 minutes to earn edginess points.
I actually thought they would be harsher on the merryweather group, who was clearly a blackwater style PMC outfit.
yeah I got that impression, since
It was more they could have taken a different avenue.
(Peds dropping coffee cups, phones that instantly exploded, Hah!)
https://googledrive.com/host/0B-JdId1SslCJNEIweDFobGl2MzA/builds.xml
Great insight into R*'s dev process as well.
Yeah, pretty fascinating stuff.
Edit: for the new page: http://www.reddit.com/r/Games/comments/1my5e5/remember_the_gta_v_xml_file_from_the_xbox_360/
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
That is what one calls a satisfying conclusion. As someone who never finished 4 I think this game is fucking amazing.
Moving away from the big debates and back to gameplay stuff, do you increase your special stat by just turning it on, even if you don't do anything with it?
Do I have to go on a killing spree as Mike or Trevor to improve it, or can I just watch the traffic in slow motion?
Oh thank god somebody else gets it! I don't think that many people played the DLC, but I did, so that instantly poisoned my opinion of Trevor.
(Trevor's first appearance spoilers)
Stop trying to make me feel bad Rockstar! You're too good at it!
Trevor, Franklin and Michael do the 'see no evil, speak no evil, hear no evil pose'
In other news I bought a Bugatti Veyron last night and spent another 100k on it in the modshop, then.... I drove it off a cliff on my first drive out.
Have i just blown over a million dollars? The car wasn't in the garage when I respawned.
Now that I'm at home and not at work where I'm talking into my phone about torture, I can say more.
I believe GTA is a great place to start the conversation. It's not like we are going to be playing Mario and find Peach getting raped by Bowser (you know that's happening. Or that bitch is giving it up anyhow. Fuck you, Peach! Why do you get caught so damn much?) so we can talk about rape and bestiality. But GTA has a unique theme that can do this. Its a game where you play bad people doing bad things, sometimes for good reasons. But most of the time its for bad reasons. Sure, MGS has touched upon it before, but were you the torturer or the torturee that time? Was it happening to you, or were you doing it? It reminds me of the No Russian mission in MW2. You did something terrible to try to earn your place into a terrorist group so you could stop them from doing a bigger, badder thing.
I'm sure there's a buncha stuff considered "Miscellaneous" that isn't covered in the guides either; I'm up to 9/16 and most definitely haven't done half the stuff officially considered the requirements.
Literally.
I did a ? mission with Franklin and now I have 15 or so parachute jumps to do. They're interesting little puzzles.
Another one and unlocked street races.
Another one unlocks triathalons.
Another one unlocked a whole sequence of interesting cutscenes with Trevor.
Hunt down those ?
There's also a bunch of really neat easter eggs around. I know it's exploring, but it's really NEAT exploring.
Here is a pretty neat example. I'll put it in spoilers in case you want to find really cool easter eggs yourself. It's under the ocean.
After I found out about this I had a really entertaining couple of hours finding it. It didn't really lead to anything except my own enjoyment though.
There's more stuff like this.
Word on the street is that if you mod a car and destroy/abandon it, it will show up in one of the police impound yards so you don't lose all the money you put into it.
Steam: Kemlo
There's no straw man, he's pointing out that your objection makes no sense. The torture sequence forces the player to self reflect on the typically meaningless and mundane ultraviolence prevalent in AAA games like this or CoD. It's the opposite of No Russian. It uses something shocking to show that human beings are human beings even within the game, not just targets to shoot down. It's not cynical, mindless depravity like No Russian was.
Thing about "No Russian" is you didn't actually have to murder the unarmed civilians at the beginning. You could get away with not firing a single shot until the swat cops show up, at which point it becomes a matter of self-defense. The point is, I could at very least choose not to take an active part in the atrocity about to be committed, wheras GTA refuses to continue until I take an active role in a dude's torture.
I used every device just to see what would happen, I never had to use the adrenaline shot though. What has to happen where that comes into play?
What a bummer.
I'm definitely not doing any more of his missions until the end now.
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
only problem is i have no idea how to do this, i never see any vans or trucks driving about, you can't go inside shops to shoot them up
how exactly am i supposed to blow things up if i cant find them?
I'm starting to think this just isn't implemented (yet).
In my game, Bean Machine is bottomed out around -340%, so I found a couple of Cool Beans stores, and did drive-bys, shot up their windows, sticky bombed their outside furniture, and set everything on fire with a jerry can.
Then I watched the market while sleep-saving to pass time. Not only did Bean Machine not go up, it actually went down another 5%! Cool Beans also went up another 5%. I reloaded my save to before I made the investment and gave up on trying to manipulate the markets.
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
You can get a Veyron for free good sir.
Just saying.
I found one parked before.
But it's buggy as fuck and won't always work so don't count on it.
Old PA forum lookalike style for the new forums | My ko-fi donation thing.
In other news, hire me as the gunner for your heist. Apparently I will be fine shooting anyoneeveryone.
Also Social Club appears to have stopped shitting itself. I got notified that Big Isy has done 25% of his flying under bridges, so I immediately went to the airstrip to attempt to outshine him, only to get sidetracked into burning down a house and then some other stuff and man
this game
Hell, you can already...
That said, "No Russian" was an alarmist cash-in on terrorism fears. "No one is safe! They could start shooting up an airport any any time!" There was no message to it.
"That scene" was nothing but message.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Steam: adamjnet
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
PSN: Beltaine-77 | Steam: beltane77 | Battle.net BadHaggis#1433
If you haven't been added already, please fill out an Invite Request Form.
TPS report optional.
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
Example
Penny Arcade Rockstar Social Club / This is why I despise cyclists
WiiU Username: MordaRazgrom
Steam Username: MordaRazgrom
WoW/Diablo 3 Battlenet Battletag: MordaRazgrom#1755
Me and my wife have a gamer YouTube page if interested www.youtube.com/TeamMarriage
How do we remedy this, boss?
(Boss? Don? OG?)
Cheers bro. Like I said, I'm not active right now and may end up waiting a couple of weeks until I start playing, but I totally have the game and will be an active participant, so don't want to get cut if it's not necessary.