Feeding your Byakko to Bastet makes me cringe...why would you not at least just want the option down the road??? Damn you and your gluttony of gods!
You're saying you use Echidna with Freyja as a leader because of the healer bonus? That's true I suppose! Though it's not as efficient as a true color delay, since you won't be actively seeking to match red orbs and ADK cannibalizes her attack as well.
Because I have OCD about my box and I get grumpy having things I don't want to use.
And yeah, I'll sometimes use Echidna with Freyja thanks to the Healer bonus. And I'm actually not using ADK at the moment. This is my current Wood team
Right now Odin tends to be in that empty spot, but other possibilities include Michael, Susano, Parvati, and Echidna.
Yeah, I went into Is last night, but I was not able to Busty the Neptune until today (Amelits, amirite?) and my Joker is just too low to have a healthy hp threshold, it was a forgone conclusion. CDD rocked my socks. I also have a Belial, but it is low, and I do not see him hanging with any of the other cards mentioned. I am entirely too low rank to field a pair of Heras anyways, so I have some time to juice everyone up.
Yeah, I went into Is last night, but I was not able to Busty the Neptune until today (Amelits, amirite?) and my Joker is just too low to have a healthy hp threshold, it was a forgone conclusion. CDD rocked my socks. I also have a Belial, but it is low, and I do not see him hanging with any of the other cards mentioned. I am entirely too low rank to field a pair of Heras anyways, so I have some time to juice everyone up.
Yeah, no need to rush it!
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38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
That's what typically happens in Descends. All stones are spent on the boss, unless you make a mistake in the earlier rounds anyway. That's just the breaks of 40% drop, unfortunately. Luckily I got my Hera-Is on my second try, though it took 4-5 for Hera-Ur (good thing she's so easy).
Back to the Alma grind. Hoping for some of gjaustin's skillup luck...but doubtful. 4 more Yomi skill ups to go. I'm so not looking forward to farming Hera skillups once I get my Valk team ready for that. I will be playing this damn game until I'm dead...
Is there a reason I am not seeing that people seem to like Byakko over Genbu (or any of the others, for that matter) across the board?
Byakko has access to probably the three strongest colors. The skills the team has access to are really phenomenal. Gravity = Hades, Hera-Is, Hera. Delay = Echidna, Orochi. Survivability = RK, in a pinch. Poison = SDA Neptune. Easily skilled up Orb-changers in CDK and Duke Vamp. Siegfried is Blue/Red, which makes him a great sub as well. Change the World with Yomi for huge combos. Also, Hera-Ur and Loki for color enhancing. You can even use King Baddie to make a Byakko/Devil team, though I don't think it's optimal. Also, Dark is really easy to level up and put the pieces in place (i.e. a lot of the best Byakko subs are farmable).
There's just a lot of flexibility and utility with Byakko teams that the other Chinese gods don't necessarily have.
@38thDoe, Lucifer doesn't factor at all into Byakko teams, though. You would never use him on a team because you're not trying to stall that long. I suppose you could make some pseudo-grindy Byakko team with all dark elements and a Luci friend, but that seems highly inefficient. I know you hate Lucifer, but don't hate him for Byakko They are unrelated in this case.
I was not suggesting to use Lucifer on a Chinese team. I was just blathering on about color balance. To be honest I am voice posting from my phone so we should all be glad that my posts are as intelligible as they are.
I don't hate Lucifer I'm just jealous of The good fortune of others. I really should have rerolled my account to get Lucifer or Kirin. I am probably just super cranky after another failed wasted day of not getting The blizzard Dragon.
Lucifier has only been in the US version of the game for around 100 days.... that is main reason why I have every other Dark God besides him. When I did my large REM during GodFest + Dark Carnvial there was no Lucifer... Though you have the JP version too.
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Honestly I'd probably rather have Byakko than Lucifer I think. It is really hard to overstate how dull Lucifer is, even if he is really really good. If mega-cannon isn't up then you are slowly grinding things down. Byakko is both extremely good, and takes a modicum of skill to keep going.
Then again, grinding up to a decent team with Byakko seems much harder.
That's what typically happens in Descends. All stones are spent on the boss, unless you make a mistake in the earlier rounds anyway. That's just the breaks of 40% drop, unfortunately. Luckily I got my Hera-Is on my second try, though it took 4-5 for Hera-Ur (good thing she's so easy).
Back to the Alma grind. Hoping for some of gjaustin's skillup luck...but doubtful. 4 more Yomi skill ups to go. I'm so not looking forward to farming Hera skillups once I get my Valk team ready for that. I will be playing this damn game until I'm dead...
Is there a reason I am not seeing that people seem to like Byakko over Genbu (or any of the others, for that matter) across the board?
Byakko has access to probably the three strongest colors. The skills the team has access to are really phenomenal. Gravity = Hades, Hera-Is, Hera. Delay = Echidna, Orochi. Survivability = RK, in a pinch. Poison = SDA Neptune. Easily skilled up Orb-changers in CDK and Duke Vamp. Siegfried is Blue/Red, which makes him a great sub as well. Change the World with Yomi for huge combos. Also, Hera-Ur and Loki for color enhancing. You can even use King Baddie to make a Byakko/Devil team, though I don't think it's optimal. Also, Dark is really easy to level up and put the pieces in place (i.e. a lot of the best Byakko subs are farmable).
There's just a lot of flexibility and utility with Byakko teams that the other Chinese gods don't necessarily have.
@38thDoe, Lucifer doesn't factor at all into Byakko teams, though. You would never use him on a team because you're not trying to stall that long. I suppose you could make some pseudo-grindy Byakko team with all dark elements and a Luci friend, but that seems highly inefficient. I know you hate Lucifer, but don't hate him for Byakko They are unrelated in this case.
I was not suggesting to use Lucifer on a Chinese team. I was just blathering on about color balance. To be honest I am voice posting from my phone so we should all be glad that my posts are as intelligible as they are.
I don't hate Lucifer I'm just jealous of The good fortune of others. I really should have rerolled my account to get Lucifer or Kirin. I am probably just super cranky after another failed wasted day of not getting The blizzard Dragon.
Understood! Kirin would be a fantastic get - more so than Lucifer, imho.
Honestly I'd probably rather have Byakko than Lucifer I think. It is really hard to overstate how dull Lucifer is, even if he is really really good. If mega-cannon isn't up then you are slowly grinding things down. Byakko is both extremely good, and takes a modicum of skill to keep going.
Then again, grinding up to a decent team with Byakko seems much harder.
I agree completely. Give me Byakko over Lucifer any day (though having double Lucifer would make getting some of those descend-only gods easier, to then use on my Byakko team!!!) I have most of the ones I want now anyway. It' just almost 100% necessary to have some kind of spike lead (Kirin, Horus, Ra, Byakko, etc.). Much more fun than the grindy route. I'd take Astaroth over Luci, even though I don't have archdemon subs. She's just cooler!
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38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
While we are discussing not getting a bonus I frequently use naga on teams were she doesn't get a bonus just because delay is that powerful, such a good monster.
I frequently hear how boring Lucifer is. It is kind of maddening though because not being able to do a dungeon at all is probably less fun than doing it with Lucifer.
That's what typically happens in Descends. All stones are spent on the boss, unless you make a mistake in the earlier rounds anyway. That's just the breaks of 40% drop, unfortunately. Luckily I got my Hera-Is on my second try, though it took 4-5 for Hera-Ur (good thing she's so easy).
Back to the Alma grind. Hoping for some of gjaustin's skillup luck...but doubtful. 4 more Yomi skill ups to go. I'm so not looking forward to farming Hera skillups once I get my Valk team ready for that. I will be playing this damn game until I'm dead...
Is there a reason I am not seeing that people seem to like Byakko over Genbu (or any of the others, for that matter) across the board?
Byakko has access to probably the three strongest colors. The skills the team has access to are really phenomenal. Gravity = Hades, Hera-Is, Hera. Delay = Echidna, Orochi. Survivability = RK, in a pinch. Poison = SDA Neptune. Easily skilled up Orb-changers in CDK and Duke Vamp. Siegfried is Blue/Red, which makes him a great sub as well. Change the World with Yomi for huge combos. Also, Hera-Ur and Loki for color enhancing. You can even use King Baddie to make a Byakko/Devil team, though I don't think it's optimal. Also, Dark is really easy to level up and put the pieces in place (i.e. a lot of the best Byakko subs are farmable).
There's just a lot of flexibility and utility with Byakko teams that the other Chinese gods don't necessarily have.
@38thDoe, Lucifer doesn't factor at all into Byakko teams, though. You would never use him on a team because you're not trying to stall that long. I suppose you could make some pseudo-grindy Byakko team with all dark elements and a Luci friend, but that seems highly inefficient. I know you hate Lucifer, but don't hate him for Byakko They are unrelated in this case.
I was not suggesting to use Lucifer on a Chinese team. I was just blathering on about color balance. To be honest I am voice posting from my phone so we should all be glad that my posts are as intelligible as they are.
I don't hate Lucifer I'm just jealous of The good fortune of others. I really should have rerolled my account to get Lucifer or Kirin. I am probably just super cranky after another failed wasted day of not getting The blizzard Dragon.
Understood! Kirin would be a fantastic get - more so than Lucifer, imho.
Honestly I'd probably rather have Byakko than Lucifer I think. It is really hard to overstate how dull Lucifer is, even if he is really really good. If mega-cannon isn't up then you are slowly grinding things down. Byakko is both extremely good, and takes a modicum of skill to keep going.
Then again, grinding up to a decent team with Byakko seems much harder.
I agree completely. Give me Byakko over Lucifer any day (though having double Lucifer would make getting some of those descend-only gods easier, to then use on my Byakko team!!!) I have most of the ones I want now anyway. It' just almost 100% necessary to have some kind of spike lead (Kirin, Horus, Ra, Byakko, etc.). Much more fun than the grindy route. I'd take Astaroth over Luci, even though I don't have archdemon subs. She's just cooler!
I think you got the main point at some point you need to have a Rem only Spike Team leader.
That's what typically happens in Descends. All stones are spent on the boss, unless you make a mistake in the earlier rounds anyway. That's just the breaks of 40% drop, unfortunately. Luckily I got my Hera-Is on my second try, though it took 4-5 for Hera-Ur (good thing she's so easy).
Back to the Alma grind. Hoping for some of gjaustin's skillup luck...but doubtful. 4 more Yomi skill ups to go. I'm so not looking forward to farming Hera skillups once I get my Valk team ready for that. I will be playing this damn game until I'm dead...
Is there a reason I am not seeing that people seem to like Byakko over Genbu (or any of the others, for that matter) across the board?
Byakko has access to probably the three strongest colors. The skills the team has access to are really phenomenal. Gravity = Hades, Hera-Is, Hera. Delay = Echidna, Orochi. Survivability = RK, in a pinch. Poison = SDA Neptune. Easily skilled up Orb-changers in CDK and Duke Vamp. Siegfried is Blue/Red, which makes him a great sub as well. Change the World with Yomi for huge combos. Also, Hera-Ur and Loki for color enhancing. You can even use King Baddie to make a Byakko/Devil team, though I don't think it's optimal. Also, Dark is really easy to level up and put the pieces in place (i.e. a lot of the best Byakko subs are farmable).
There's just a lot of flexibility and utility with Byakko teams that the other Chinese gods don't necessarily have.
@38thDoe, Lucifer doesn't factor at all into Byakko teams, though. You would never use him on a team because you're not trying to stall that long. I suppose you could make some pseudo-grindy Byakko team with all dark elements and a Luci friend, but that seems highly inefficient. I know you hate Lucifer, but don't hate him for Byakko They are unrelated in this case.
I was not suggesting to use Lucifer on a Chinese team. I was just blathering on about color balance. To be honest I am voice posting from my phone so we should all be glad that my posts are as intelligible as they are.
I don't hate Lucifer I'm just jealous of The good fortune of others. I really should have rerolled my account to get Lucifer or Kirin. I am probably just super cranky after another failed wasted day of not getting The blizzard Dragon.
No, Lucifer is worth hating. He exhibits poor game design.
The problem with Lucifer is that he's a grind team leader. Grind teams have a very particular playstyle: survive and whittle everything down. That's fine, and that option should be out there. But it shouldn't work for everything. In fact, there are already mechanics in place to punish grind teams: monster armor (which is supposed to encourage use of offensive leader skills) and outhealable boss mechanics that kick in at low %health (which are supposed to encourage burst damage). The real problem here is that Lucifer's active skill counteracts those mechanics (to a huge degree) by providing grind teams with huge burst damage. Moreover, the skill's penalty (reducing you to 1 HP) is virtually moot, since a Lucifer team will be able to heal up right away.
Changing Lucifer's leader skill to something else would help loads, but wouldn't completely solve the problem, since he'd still fit right in as a grind team sub. Really, a burst damage active skill like his would be much better suited for, say, a skydragon -- a monster that's purely offense-oriented. If Lucifer had, say, 50 RCV, he'd be a lot less desirable on grind teams. (Also consider Satan: his active skill is even stronger than Lucifer's, but his negative RCV means you can't use him on grind teams. This is good design, though they may have overdone it a bit on the low-RCV front.)
The good news is that they have already introduced an anti-Lucifer mechanic in preemptive attacks: if you kill something with Lucifer, and the next wave has a preemptive hit, you're dead. The bad news is that this still doesn't stop you from finishing off "final bosses" with Lucifer, and that's generally the hardest part of any dungeon.
They might just have to start letting all bosses bind light. This would shut Lucifer right down. (It would also kill light teams, but when's the last time you were tempted to use a light team?) edit: yeah, kirin and valk...this was kind of a dumb thing to say
Neutering Lucifer's active skill in isolation would make him pretty medoicre. No one is going to want to grind out 100k+ bosses and sub-bosses with virtually no offensive power. All you've done is taken a fundamentally unfun, yet good leader and made them unfun and bad.
Changing mechanics is fine, it makes you switch things up to take out some content. Making Lucifer unable to clear Hyperion Lava Flow in under a half hour without a bunch of good subs is probably not a good idea.
Lucifer shouldn't be changed - there should just be more dungeons designed to counter his use. That's already happening, so I think it's a non-issue now. He's in the game, so we should adapt. I know I use him as a friend to clear descends like Valk, Hera-Ur, and will use him again for Goemon. Lucifer will be there, but so will descends where Lucifer doesn't work. Look at Athena.
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38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
Neutering Lucifer's active skill in isolation would make him pretty medoicre. No one is going to want to grind out 100k+ bosses and sub-bosses with virtually no offensive power. All you've done is taken a fundamentally unfun, yet good leader and made them unfun and bad.
Changing mechanics is fine, it makes you switch things up to take out some content. Making Lucifer unable to clear Hyperion Lava Flow in under a half hour without a bunch of good subs is probably not a good idea.
So, like the other four angels then? Two of them don't even get gravity.
Neutering Lucifer's active skill in isolation would make him pretty medoicre. No one is going to want to grind out 100k+ bosses and sub-bosses with virtually no offensive power. All you've done is taken a fundamentally unfun, yet good leader and made them unfun and bad.
Yes -- which would bring him in line with the other angels. I agree, grind teams aren't much fun, but they do work, and often that's the top priority. If someone wants to adopt that playstyle, good for them; it should be an option, but it shouldn't be viable for everything.
I don't see why Gungho would want to make Lucifer like the other angels that aren't used as team leads often. I understand you don't like Lucifer, but just nerfing him into obscurity is bad design as well. It'd be better to make those other angels more useful in non-sub positions.
They might just have to start letting all bosses bind light. This would shut Lucifer right down. (It would also kill light teams, but when's the last time you were tempted to use a light team?)
If you have a Kirin or Valk or Ra or Amaterasu team? Probably pretty recently.
Even if you removed Lucifer's active skill completely, he'd still be used as a leader due to the wide selection of strong dark subs. Dark grind teams would still be quite viable.
The point is that Lucifer's active skill simply does not belong on a grind team. One way to fix this would be to change the skill. Another way would be to change Lucifer's stats (and leader skill) to make him less suited to a grind team.
Lucifer can clear Athena with super high levels and would require stones.
I wonder if my Byakko team can do it...I doubt it, haha. Mostly due to my own failings. Need gravities skilled up.
Nah, you can do it without stones. You'd need lots of +eggs, but if you can get your HP above 100k, you can 0-stone. If you're willing to spend stones, you don't need particularly high levels or +eggs. (RGG is the only real threat, and he'll go down once you get morning star charged.)
Yeah. Work can wait, burning extra stamina is more important.
Are people rolling this godfest? I probably will due to a lack of gods in general. Plus my first pull (I didn't really know about rerolling at the time) was a Gryps Rider, so if I get Metatron I'd be pretty jazzed. Not spending money though.
Are people rolling this godfest? I probably will due to a lack of gods in general. Plus my first pull (I didn't really know about rerolling at the time) was a Gryps Rider, so if I get Metatron I'd be pretty jazzed. Not spending money though.
I'd consider it if I didn't already have a Lucifer, but since I do, I'll hold off. I'll probably save my stones until an Egyptian or Chinese godfest. (With Bastet's ultimate evolution, the Egyptian gods are all really attractive...I'd even be foolish enough to give Anubis a shot.)
Neutering Lucifer's active skill in isolation would make him pretty medoicre. No one is going to want to grind out 100k+ bosses and sub-bosses with virtually no offensive power. All you've done is taken a fundamentally unfun, yet good leader and made them unfun and bad.
Changing mechanics is fine, it makes you switch things up to take out some content. Making Lucifer unable to clear Hyperion Lava Flow in under a half hour without a bunch of good subs is probably not a good idea.
So, like the other four angels then? Two of them don't even get gravity.
Also Lucifer can clear Athena.
I have no idea why they didn't give the RGB Angels bind immunity as their awoken skills.
Not only are they weaker than Lucifer and Raphael, but they're vulnerable to getting randomly bound as a Light monster
Only one that might be considered a way to stop Lucifer would be Satans dungeon where he does pre-emptive attack and probably would use Lucifer to sweep Hades... of course no one runs a lucifer in that dungeon with it not having any hearts, anyway.
The thing that bothers me the most about Lucifer is because I did not get lucky from the Gold Dragon and get him, certain dungeons now cost me stones to complete. If I had a Lucifer instead of HQP, could 0-stone Valk instead of 4 stones. Could 0-stone Goemon instead of 1 stone (6 total over 4 runs).
I rolled at least 15 times trying to get a Lucifer the very first time he dropped in a GodFest with no luck. Got Angels of Green/Blue/Light, got Fallen Lucifer and Amon. I spent over 20$ during the chinese gods first godfest, only one I got is the Red Leader.
They can't change Lucifer stats or skills now, they probably should of thought more about it and had him get a different Leader skill. Also appears that GungHo is not trying very hard to make him useless in dungeons either, though there might be hopes with the new "Poison", though all you will need is a healer on your team to get you up past 1 HP before you move an orb.
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ugh, got gun shy on the eco dungeon and ended up not killing the boss with hera hera lucifer and now she healed and i have to grind through her
If you put an orb changer on your team should be able to sweep the boss with double gravity + Lucifer. The boss on hardest difficulty would only have 26-27,000 health left. Which would only be 14k dark damage.
Not doing the math ... but that 14k should only be about 2 dark combos and 2 other combos, if running a mono dark team.
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They can't change Lucifer stats or skills now, they probably should of thought more about it and had him get a different Leader skill. Also appears that GungHo is not trying very hard to make him useless in dungeons either, though there might be hopes with the new "Poison", though all you will need is a healer on your team to get you up past 1 HP before you move an orb.
Does poison damage apply before heart recovery, or at the same time? I had assumed they'd happen simultaneously, but if poison happens first, then it does absolutely neuter Morning Star.
They can't change Lucifer stats or skills now, they probably should of thought more about it and had him get a different Leader skill. Also appears that GungHo is not trying very hard to make him useless in dungeons either, though there might be hopes with the new "Poison", though all you will need is a healer on your team to get you up past 1 HP before you move an orb.
Does poison damage apply before heart recovery, or at the same time? I had assumed they'd happen simultaneously, but if poison happens first, then it does absolutely neuter Morning Star.
Don't think anyone knows right now how it is going to work.
It is where devil ceres will come in handy though, so can do morning star + ceres.
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Only one that might be considered a way to stop Lucifer would be Satans dungeon where he does pre-emptive attack and probably would use Lucifer to sweep Hades... of course no one runs a lucifer in that dungeon with it not having any hearts, anyway.
The thing that bothers me the most about Lucifer is because I did not get lucky from the Gold Dragon and get him, certain dungeons now cost me stones to complete. If I had a Lucifer instead of HQP, could 0-stone Valk instead of 4 stones. Could 0-stone Goemon instead of 1 stone (6 total over 4 runs).
I rolled at least 15 times trying to get a Lucifer the very first time he dropped in a GodFest with no luck. Got Angels of Green/Blue/Light, got Fallen Lucifer and Amon. I spent over 20$ during the chinese gods first godfest, only one I got is the Red Leader.
They can't change Lucifer stats or skills now, they probably should of thought more about it and had him get a different Leader skill. Also appears that GungHo is not trying very hard to make him useless in dungeons either, though there might be hopes with the new "Poison", though all you will need is a healer on your team to get you up past 1 HP before you move an orb.
All they really need is to add mobs which have 'anti-armor' so that there is a hard MAXIMUM to the amount of damage they can take.
I will never understand peoples desire to nerf monsters in a co-operative game where you have friends with that monster that share him with you.
I don't think he should be nerfed. I do think GungHo should make a dungeon where he is not useable from pre-strikes or something. But there is no reason for GungHo to make that dungeon, as long as people desire to have lucifer they will have a desire to spend more money trying to get him.... just like the whole poision thing, depending on how they do it could make it where Lucifer needs a healer (like devil ceres) which makes people pull more trying to get her.
In the end theres 2 groups of people... those who want a Lucifer and those who have him, which at some point gets bored of his slow clears.
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I will never understand peoples desire to nerf monsters in a co-operative game where you have friends with that monster that share him with you.
In theory you're correct, but practicality can have detrimental effects to the overall game, ESPECIALLY with how people tend to power-game to achieve success. If Lucifer is considered the undisputed best leader in the game, then everyone's goal is to field a Lucifer team. Even people who hate grind teams will be forced to invest in Lucifer, because that's where the majority of the players are going.
Case in point. When the game first came out, ADK was considered the game's best leaders because he was farmable and the the dual boost to dragon attacks enabled you to clear pretty much all of the normal dungeons. ADKs were everywhere, half of my friend list were ADK leaders. Then, with harder descends, the introduction of Technical dungeons, and the availability of more and better leaders, ADK faded away.
Nerfing Lucifer is something Gung-Ho likely wants to avoid (cynically, they know people are likely to pour money into REM in order to obtain him as-is) but being creative with dungeon design in order to make him less viable is key. I don't want to see 3/4 of my friends list filled with Lucifers, because I don't always to want run dark teams, much less dark grind teams.
I will never understand peoples desire to nerf monsters in a co-operative game where you have friends with that monster that share him with you.
In theory you're correct, but practicality can have detrimental effects to the overall game, ESPECIALLY with how people tend to power-game to achieve success. If Lucifer is considered the undisputed best leader in the game, then everyone's goal is to field a Lucifer team. Even people who hate grind teams will be forced to invest in Lucifer, because that's where the majority of the players are going.
Case in point. When the game first came out, ADK was considered the game's best leaders because he was farmable and the the dual boost to dragon attacks enabled you to clear pretty much all of the normal dungeons. ADKs were everywhere, half of my friend list were ADK leaders. Then, with harder descends, the introduction of Technical dungeons, and the availability of more and better leaders, ADK faded away.
Nerfing Lucifer is something Gung-Ho likely wants to avoid (cynically, they know people are likely to pour money into REM in order to obtain him as-is) but being creative with dungeon design in order to make him less viable is key. I don't want to see 3/4 of my friends list filled with Lucifers, because I don't always to want run dark teams, much less dark grind teams.
Sure, but burst teams seem just as viable as grind teams, more so for most dungeons.
ugh, got gun shy on the eco dungeon and ended up not killing the boss with hera hera lucifer and now she healed and i have to grind through her
If you put an orb changer on your team should be able to sweep the boss with double gravity + Lucifer. The boss on hardest difficulty would only have 26-27,000 health left. Which would only be 14k dark damage.
Not doing the math ... but that 14k should only be about 2 dark combos and 2 other combos, if running a mono dark team.
a normal multi combo with dark would have worked but the board didn't have any dark orbs and my light attacks did nothing, that and my d'spinos was on cooldown. i guess techincally it was an itchy trigger finger
so this upcoming GodFest is 3x drop rates and is normally 2x drop rates?
Anyone else noticed that Japan has so much better REM than we do? There machine is currently dropping ultimate evo Neptune & Kagutsuchi .... also if you have seen any of tubegameplayer's REM pulls, you will see he gets monsters coming out at different levels, the one Lucifer he pulled was lvl 49. Ours is either 30 or less than level 5.
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I will never understand peoples desire to nerf monsters in a co-operative game where you have friends with that monster that share him with you.
In theory you're correct, but practicality can have detrimental effects to the overall game, ESPECIALLY with how people tend to power-game to achieve success. If Lucifer is considered the undisputed best leader in the game, then everyone's goal is to field a Lucifer team. Even people who hate grind teams will be forced to invest in Lucifer, because that's where the majority of the players are going.
Case in point. When the game first came out, ADK was considered the game's best leaders because he was farmable and the the dual boost to dragon attacks enabled you to clear pretty much all of the normal dungeons. ADKs were everywhere, half of my friend list were ADK leaders. Then, with harder descends, the introduction of Technical dungeons, and the availability of more and better leaders, ADK faded away.
Nerfing Lucifer is something Gung-Ho likely wants to avoid (cynically, they know people are likely to pour money into REM in order to obtain him as-is) but being creative with dungeon design in order to make him less viable is key. I don't want to see 3/4 of my friends list filled with Lucifers, because I don't always to want run dark teams, much less dark grind teams.
Sure, but burst teams seem just as viable as grind teams, more so for most dungeons.
Burst teams are arguably more effective than a Lucifer grind team, but Lucifer teams are much safer. No one wants to blow 50 stam in a failed descended run - so the question becomes are you more comfortable with a high risk/reward Kirin/Ra/Goemon team or do you take it slow and steady with Lucifer? If the answer can be one or the other, that's good for the game. Hence different dungeon design that plays to the strength of burst teams, or teams with special gimmicks.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, what makes Luci so damn good is that he's a grind leader with one of the best burst skills in the game. He's the best of both worlds. It's why I think a "active skill reflection" ability for some monsters might be a good inclusion for a counter to morningstar.
Yeah. Work can wait, burning extra stamina is more important.
Are people rolling this godfest? I probably will due to a lack of gods in general. Plus my first pull (I didn't really know about rerolling at the time) was a Gryps Rider, so if I get Metatron I'd be pretty jazzed. Not spending money though.
Since orochi (and to a lesser extent susanno) are pretty necessary for higher level burst, I'm going to for my horus/kirin account anyway.
EDIT: yeah, I threw away 150 stamina (well, really only 100 since the first one was overnight so I just needed something to waste stam on) on hera-is yesterday with kirin, only to get color starved every time. I can trigger horus 80% of the time, but that one color requirement is killer
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Because I have OCD about my box and I get grumpy having things I don't want to use.
And yeah, I'll sometimes use Echidna with Freyja thanks to the Healer bonus. And I'm actually not using ADK at the moment. This is my current Wood team
Right now Odin tends to be in that empty spot, but other possibilities include Michael, Susano, Parvati, and Echidna.
Time Zone: Eastern
You shouldn't get skill-up luck too
Yeah, no need to rush it!
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I was not suggesting to use Lucifer on a Chinese team. I was just blathering on about color balance. To be honest I am voice posting from my phone so we should all be glad that my posts are as intelligible as they are.
I don't hate Lucifer I'm just jealous of The good fortune of others. I really should have rerolled my account to get Lucifer or Kirin. I am probably just super cranky after another failed wasted day of not getting The blizzard Dragon.
PaD id - 346,240,298
Marvel FF - Lil bill12
Then again, grinding up to a decent team with Byakko seems much harder.
Understood! Kirin would be a fantastic get - more so than Lucifer, imho.
I agree completely. Give me Byakko over Lucifer any day (though having double Lucifer would make getting some of those descend-only gods easier, to then use on my Byakko team!!!) I have most of the ones I want now anyway. It' just almost 100% necessary to have some kind of spike lead (Kirin, Horus, Ra, Byakko, etc.). Much more fun than the grindy route. I'd take Astaroth over Luci, even though I don't have archdemon subs. She's just cooler!
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I frequently hear how boring Lucifer is. It is kind of maddening though because not being able to do a dungeon at all is probably less fun than doing it with Lucifer.
I think you got the main point at some point you need to have a Rem only Spike Team leader.
No, Lucifer is worth hating. He exhibits poor game design.
The problem with Lucifer is that he's a grind team leader. Grind teams have a very particular playstyle: survive and whittle everything down. That's fine, and that option should be out there. But it shouldn't work for everything. In fact, there are already mechanics in place to punish grind teams: monster armor (which is supposed to encourage use of offensive leader skills) and outhealable boss mechanics that kick in at low %health (which are supposed to encourage burst damage). The real problem here is that Lucifer's active skill counteracts those mechanics (to a huge degree) by providing grind teams with huge burst damage. Moreover, the skill's penalty (reducing you to 1 HP) is virtually moot, since a Lucifer team will be able to heal up right away.
Changing Lucifer's leader skill to something else would help loads, but wouldn't completely solve the problem, since he'd still fit right in as a grind team sub. Really, a burst damage active skill like his would be much better suited for, say, a skydragon -- a monster that's purely offense-oriented. If Lucifer had, say, 50 RCV, he'd be a lot less desirable on grind teams. (Also consider Satan: his active skill is even stronger than Lucifer's, but his negative RCV means you can't use him on grind teams. This is good design, though they may have overdone it a bit on the low-RCV front.)
The good news is that they have already introduced an anti-Lucifer mechanic in preemptive attacks: if you kill something with Lucifer, and the next wave has a preemptive hit, you're dead. The bad news is that this still doesn't stop you from finishing off "final bosses" with Lucifer, and that's generally the hardest part of any dungeon.
They might just have to start letting all bosses bind light. This would shut Lucifer right down. (It would also kill light teams, but when's the last time you were tempted to use a light team?) edit: yeah, kirin and valk...this was kind of a dumb thing to say
Changing mechanics is fine, it makes you switch things up to take out some content. Making Lucifer unable to clear Hyperion Lava Flow in under a half hour without a bunch of good subs is probably not a good idea.
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So, like the other four angels then? Two of them don't even get gravity.
Also Lucifer can clear Athena.
If you have a Kirin or Valk or Ra or Amaterasu team? Probably pretty recently.
The point is that Lucifer's active skill simply does not belong on a grind team. One way to fix this would be to change the skill. Another way would be to change Lucifer's stats (and leader skill) to make him less suited to a grind team.
I wonder if my Byakko team can do it...I doubt it, haha. Mostly due to my own failings. Need gravities skilled up.
3DS Friend Code: 1821-8991-4141
PAD ID: 376,540,262
3DS Friend Code: 1821-8991-4141
PAD ID: 376,540,262
Are people rolling this godfest? I probably will due to a lack of gods in general. Plus my first pull (I didn't really know about rerolling at the time) was a Gryps Rider, so if I get Metatron I'd be pretty jazzed. Not spending money though.
I have no idea why they didn't give the RGB Angels bind immunity as their awoken skills.
Not only are they weaker than Lucifer and Raphael, but they're vulnerable to getting randomly bound as a Light monster
Only one that might be considered a way to stop Lucifer would be Satans dungeon where he does pre-emptive attack and probably would use Lucifer to sweep Hades... of course no one runs a lucifer in that dungeon with it not having any hearts, anyway.
The thing that bothers me the most about Lucifer is because I did not get lucky from the Gold Dragon and get him, certain dungeons now cost me stones to complete. If I had a Lucifer instead of HQP, could 0-stone Valk instead of 4 stones. Could 0-stone Goemon instead of 1 stone (6 total over 4 runs).
I rolled at least 15 times trying to get a Lucifer the very first time he dropped in a GodFest with no luck. Got Angels of Green/Blue/Light, got Fallen Lucifer and Amon. I spent over 20$ during the chinese gods first godfest, only one I got is the Red Leader.
They can't change Lucifer stats or skills now, they probably should of thought more about it and had him get a different Leader skill. Also appears that GungHo is not trying very hard to make him useless in dungeons either, though there might be hopes with the new "Poison", though all you will need is a healer on your team to get you up past 1 HP before you move an orb.
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If you put an orb changer on your team should be able to sweep the boss with double gravity + Lucifer. The boss on hardest difficulty would only have 26-27,000 health left. Which would only be 14k dark damage.
Not doing the math ... but that 14k should only be about 2 dark combos and 2 other combos, if running a mono dark team.
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Don't think anyone knows right now how it is going to work.
It is where devil ceres will come in handy though, so can do morning star + ceres.
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MWO: Adamski
All they really need is to add mobs which have 'anti-armor' so that there is a hard MAXIMUM to the amount of damage they can take.
I don't think he should be nerfed. I do think GungHo should make a dungeon where he is not useable from pre-strikes or something. But there is no reason for GungHo to make that dungeon, as long as people desire to have lucifer they will have a desire to spend more money trying to get him.... just like the whole poision thing, depending on how they do it could make it where Lucifer needs a healer (like devil ceres) which makes people pull more trying to get her.
In the end theres 2 groups of people... those who want a Lucifer and those who have him, which at some point gets bored of his slow clears.
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In theory you're correct, but practicality can have detrimental effects to the overall game, ESPECIALLY with how people tend to power-game to achieve success. If Lucifer is considered the undisputed best leader in the game, then everyone's goal is to field a Lucifer team. Even people who hate grind teams will be forced to invest in Lucifer, because that's where the majority of the players are going.
Case in point. When the game first came out, ADK was considered the game's best leaders because he was farmable and the the dual boost to dragon attacks enabled you to clear pretty much all of the normal dungeons. ADKs were everywhere, half of my friend list were ADK leaders. Then, with harder descends, the introduction of Technical dungeons, and the availability of more and better leaders, ADK faded away.
Nerfing Lucifer is something Gung-Ho likely wants to avoid (cynically, they know people are likely to pour money into REM in order to obtain him as-is) but being creative with dungeon design in order to make him less viable is key. I don't want to see 3/4 of my friends list filled with Lucifers, because I don't always to want run dark teams, much less dark grind teams.
Sure, but burst teams seem just as viable as grind teams, more so for most dungeons.
MWO: Adamski
a normal multi combo with dark would have worked but the board didn't have any dark orbs and my light attacks did nothing, that and my d'spinos was on cooldown. i guess techincally it was an itchy trigger finger
Anyone else noticed that Japan has so much better REM than we do? There machine is currently dropping ultimate evo Neptune & Kagutsuchi .... also if you have seen any of tubegameplayer's REM pulls, you will see he gets monsters coming out at different levels, the one Lucifer he pulled was lvl 49. Ours is either 30 or less than level 5.
PaD id - 346,240,298
Marvel FF - Lil bill12
Burst teams are arguably more effective than a Lucifer grind team, but Lucifer teams are much safer. No one wants to blow 50 stam in a failed descended run - so the question becomes are you more comfortable with a high risk/reward Kirin/Ra/Goemon team or do you take it slow and steady with Lucifer? If the answer can be one or the other, that's good for the game. Hence different dungeon design that plays to the strength of burst teams, or teams with special gimmicks.
As mentioned earlier in the thread, what makes Luci so damn good is that he's a grind leader with one of the best burst skills in the game. He's the best of both worlds. It's why I think a "active skill reflection" ability for some monsters might be a good inclusion for a counter to morningstar.
EDIT: yeah, I threw away 150 stamina (well, really only 100 since the first one was overnight so I just needed something to waste stam on) on hera-is yesterday with kirin, only to get color starved every time. I can trigger horus 80% of the time, but that one color requirement is killer