To make a non-flame post, subtlety is capable of topping dmg meters, but you have to be way more skilled to pull it off. Whereas anybody can hop on a combat rogue and do good dmg. Just gotta constantly have rupture running, and its much more gear dependent. You also would want your +hit as high as can manage, because with your AP being generally much higher than combat rogues, your white dmg should be in their same range(dw spec). Premed also makes you a valid emergency tank if need be, for evasion purposes.
with 1600 crit hemo's standard it's probobly pretty easy to top the charts.
you have to be way more skilled to pull it off
spamming a different cycle would indeed take skill, but considering that im comparing my own dps with two different specs, how can i possibly hope to OUTSKILL MYSELF?!
Well, to play devil's advocate you're going to be more skilled at the spec you're used to playing. Even given equal gear I'm a much better resto druid than feral. I know the difference isn't nearly as pronounced but I assume it's there.
Different specs recquire different playstyles. One person who is skilled in combat, wouldn't necessarily know how to excel in a sublety spec. That's all I was saying there, sorry for not being more specific. Combat is probably still a little more dps in a raiding format, but I wouldn't say 35% more dmg.
BlueBaron on
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
edited April 2007
haha isn't this the guy that claimed he consistently got 1600 hemos and that ice mages were easy to kill?
I sure hope so, dirty tricks sucks.
But ohhh my god, imp. sap is finally stock. I thought I'd never see the day.
Dirty Tricks is LEET. the biggest problem with sap is that its basically begging for an AE even if you stay stealthed, and your opener on the next target is nerfed hard.... you lose the first few seconds of your sap regening what you spent to throw it up before you open on target 2. Dirty Deeds looks solid to me.
Mm, alright, I guess saying it sucks was a bit much, but I definitely don't think I'd call it leet either.
My spec atm is http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-talents.xml?r=Detheroc&n=Krensa so I could see myself throwing those two points into either Dirty Tricks or Elusiveness. The sap changes + 15 energy blind (I'm a target switcher extraordinare, seriously, do not even try to cast a heal standing near me you god damn paladins) could be pretty useful in arena, but then again, so could a 1.5 minute blind.
Different specs recquire different playstyles. One person who is skilled in combat, wouldn't necessarily know how to excel in a sublety spec. That's all I was saying there, sorry for not being more specific. Combat is probably still a little more dps in a raiding format, but I wouldn't say 35% more dmg.
No matter your build, raiding is generally a cycle of generating and spending CP's in attempt to maximize DPS. what you're saying may be true for pvpv, but in a raid swapping hemo with ss and adding more Ruptures into your cycle isnt difficult.
i agree that combat probobly isnt/shouldnt be 35% more than subt, i hope to do more testing with subt in the future as i said ;p
haha isn't this the guy that claimed he consistently got 1600 hemos and that ice mages were easy to kill?
why yes, it is
Subt = Peeveepee imho
You might do well in a 5-man, and as the only rogue in a Kara group no one wil notice as long as the tank and healers dont out DPS you...but in a raid with other rogues, you better hope they aren't combat as they will rape you on the meters.
I don't care however, because as said above, combat is teh boring.
i'm going to give him a break I just find it weird to see a 1600 hemo.
It's definitely possible with arena weapons (and probably BS), but I doubt it would be an average. Just the top end.
Aren't the Arena weapons 2.6 speed? Yeah I don't think it's possible to hit those crits unless you have some insane gear to back that up. That 2.6 speed is just too fast to see super Hemo crits for like 1600.
i'm going to give him a break I just find it weird to see a 1600 hemo.
It's definitely possible with arena weapons (and probably BS), but I doubt it would be an average. Just the top end.
Aren't the Arena weapons 2.6 speed? Yeah I don't think it's possible to hit those crits unless you have some insane gear to back that up. That 2.6 speed is just too fast to see super Hemo crits for like 1600.
I'm not Hemo any more, but with Fool's Bane, I'd occasionally see a 1300-1400, mostly on Blindeye. In PvP gear, I'd say it's extremely unlikely, at best, to ever see a 1600 Hemo on a Frost Mage, let alone have that be an average.
Even so, he was given the benefit of the doubt; even assuming everything crit, it's still no where near enough to drop a Mage as fast as they claim.
i'm going to give him a break I just find it weird to see a 1600 hemo.
It's definitely possible with arena weapons (and probably BS), but I doubt it would be an average. Just the top end.
Aren't the Arena weapons 2.6 speed? Yeah I don't think it's possible to hit those crits unless you have some insane gear to back that up. That 2.6 speed is just too fast to see super Hemo crits for like 1600.
I've got the fist weapon, I've seen a couple hemo crits that were around 1,500-1,550ish, so just shy of 1.6k. My gear is pretty solid but you could do better. I'm not saying that I average crit on mages (or anything) that high, just saying that it's possible.
But by then his point is moot anyway. "Oh yeah, if you are one of the top 0,5% geared rogues in the world and fight mages that aren't frost, and are at best wearing PvP blues/PvE epics, you can totally crit 1600 all the time, and kill them easily. Obviously mages are ezmode."
A mage has what, ~10% damage reduction at most? Maybe 12-13% with Ice Armor ? One would need a ~1800 hemo crit to do that kind of damage. That's what, with Lethality, ~780 hemo or so (780*2.3 = 1794).
Without any damage buffs (like the +5% damage from world pvp), you would need about 2500 ap for that kind of hit with say Dragonmaw which is a decent hemo weapon, and not that difficult to attain if you can run heroics. 2500 AP is not too hard to get with decent gear and teamed with the right classes, though it would be more likely a group/raid environment than pvp. Especially with Deadliness.
I actually do not believe there is nothing wrong with a Hemo spec for a raid environment, though you do need the gear and focus on the right stats (such as focus more on AP and hit, than crit). I also believe it relies more on the player and how they play, then the spec, for the most part.
I also believe the "35% more damage in combat" to be very exaggerated. As long as you pick up some key talents, know how to play your class well, use your trinkets and abilities at the right time, most rogue builds should do comparable damage (within 10%, at most)*. Most of the time when people say this build sucks, or they tried the build and it blows, usually means they actually did not know what they were doing with that build, or did not have the right gear to test it out.
You wanna compare Hemo builds to combat sword/fists? Stop comparing with 1300 AP. Having unbuffed AP at 1700-1900, 15-20% hit, you can do quite well.
*note: I did say you have to have key talents, so you are not totally free on chosing builds, just it's not set in stone like most believe.
Didn't realize I was going to anger everyone so much. I just personally find frost mages easy, and I do routinely crit them in the 1600's...I never said I crit warriors or anyone not wearing cloth that high. I am also lucky enough to have some really excellent gear, and recently had surgery so I don't work right now. I basically have been sitting around and playing WoW nonstop for the past month.
Well, define "deep" raiding. I doubt anyone mucking around in TK or killing Vashj right now is hemo specced or anything, but it's not exactly a big deal to be doing Karazhan or Gruul as a non-combat spec.
I am bout to make a horde rogue, having a tough time choosing between female troll or a female orc... I already have 2 trolls already (70 hunter, 40 mage) both are males though... so I have no idea what rogue I would like better.
When I'm hemo, I roll 1700 AP and Drakefist Hammer. My hemos on mages average 1400 and my record unbuffed was 1527, on an exposed lock (so 0 reduction). With the shitty upgrades in raiding so far, I doubt you can jump another 100 top dmg frmo KZ/Gruul, especially since the only weapons better than Drakefist are the upgraded weapons (25 top upgrade for first, noone has 2nd yet), the Spiteblade (purely due to stats), and the Talon of Azshara (25 dmg top end again).
With Talon/T2 crafted, he needs 2032 AP (unbuffed ofc since we're talking normally) to average 1600 crits on 0 armor. Prob another 100 - 200 to account for armor. Possible? Yes. Without raiding SSC a fair bit? Not really.
But this is really not a very important topic...We should be busy celebrating the patch.
1700 ap is not a lot for a hemo spec'd rogue, and why would you use one of those crafted weapons. When it comes to WoW, anything someone "recommends" for a class to spec, dont believe a damn word they say until you test it out for yourself. That's how it was on my priest pre-BC, and that's how it is now.
1700 ap is not a lot for a hemo spec'd rogue, and why would you use one of those crafted weapons. When it comes to WoW, anything someone "recommends" for a class to spec, dont believe a damn word they say until you test it out for yourself. That's how it was on my priest pre-BC, and that's how it is now.
I'm sure some of the people here would be interested to see your armory page.
1700 ap is not a lot for a hemo spec'd rogue, and why would you use one of those crafted weapons. When it comes to WoW, anything someone "recommends" for a class to spec, dont believe a damn word they say until you test it out for yourself. That's how it was on my priest pre-BC, and that's how it is now.
I'm sure some of the people here would be interested to see your armory page.
Yes, please! See, cause I've got around 1200 AP and I'd love to see how I could up it another 500 points or so with ease.
I can't see 1700 AP being anything to disbelieve for hemo. I have 1352 AP as a combat build and I've cherry picked crit and agi over AP. Someone who went for AP/agi shouldn't have any problem hitting 1700 seeing as how I was in the high 1500s when I briefly went Hemo. You have to realize a subtlety build is going to have at least 10% AP talent and possibly 15% agi.
Is a Mutilate spec viable for PvE solo grinding and 5-mans? I'd like to try something different when 2.1 hits and I won't be so tempted to spec as heavily in Sub anymore.
korodullin on
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Mutilate is fine for soloing, with one exception. Elementals will annoy you to no end for being immune to poisons and making your Mutilate damage shitty.
It works for 5 mans too, so long as your tank is decent.
I can't see 1700 AP being anything to disbelieve for hemo. I have 1352 AP as a combat build and I've cherry picked crit and agi over AP. Someone who went for AP/agi shouldn't have any problem hitting 1700 seeing as how I was in the high 1500s when I briefly went Hemo. You have to realize a subtlety build is going to have at least 10% AP talent and possibly 15% agi.
and my gear is far from impressive - please note my amazing boots.
I was combat forever and thought I'd be getting the glad. fist for sure...until I tried shadowstep for kicks.
All I do currently is arena, and it's amazing for pvp. Shadowstep + sap is killer in 5v5, especially when you pop cloak first and the shaman totems/consecration/whatever dont save them.
well in my raiding spec is 23/0/48, quick recovery helps a lot. Usually have 1821 AP, 192hit, 23%crit, and about 8.2k hp unbuffed. Not the best gear, but its pretty good and required a lot of work. Don't really feel like linking my page because I don't really know any of you, and having frequented these forums a long time...some people here are dicks.
well in my raiding spec is 23/0/48, quick recovery helps a lot. Usually have 1821 AP, 192hit, 23%crit, and about 8.2k hp unbuffed. Not the best gear, but its pretty good and required a lot of work. Don't really feel like linking my page because I don't really know any of you, and having frequented these forums a long time...some people here are dicks.
You're afraid that we're going to steal your gear via armory?
well in my raiding spec is 23/0/48, quick recovery helps a lot. Usually have 1821 AP, 192hit, 23%crit, and about 8.2k hp unbuffed. Not the best gear, but its pretty good and required a lot of work. Don't really feel like linking my page because I don't really know any of you, and having frequented these forums a long time...some people here are dicks.
people still won't believe you until you post either a rupture page or armory page. you'll be having to deal with the dicks either way now. sorry bluebaron, you're now damned if you do and damned if you don't.
the top rogue in my guild has decent armor and weapons but i haven't raided with him since he specced hemo to know what he hits for. i know my rogue alt with a dragonfist thingie is only critting hemoes for 1200 while dueling but i only have 1300AP on him.
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Well, to play devil's advocate you're going to be more skilled at the spec you're used to playing. Even given equal gear I'm a much better resto druid than feral. I know the difference isn't nearly as pronounced but I assume it's there.
Mm, alright, I guess saying it sucks was a bit much, but I definitely don't think I'd call it leet either.
My spec atm is http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-talents.xml?r=Detheroc&n=Krensa so I could see myself throwing those two points into either Dirty Tricks or Elusiveness. The sap changes + 15 energy blind (I'm a target switcher extraordinare, seriously, do not even try to cast a heal standing near me you god damn paladins) could be pretty useful in arena, but then again, so could a 1.5 minute blind.
One-eyed chicks are hot.
No matter your build, raiding is generally a cycle of generating and spending CP's in attempt to maximize DPS. what you're saying may be true for pvpv, but in a raid swapping hemo with ss and adding more Ruptures into your cycle isnt difficult.
i agree that combat probobly isnt/shouldnt be 35% more than subt, i hope to do more testing with subt in the future as i said ;p
why yes, it is
Subt = Peeveepee imho
You might do well in a 5-man, and as the only rogue in a Kara group no one wil notice as long as the tank and healers dont out DPS you...but in a raid with other rogues, you better hope they aren't combat as they will rape you on the meters.
I don't care however, because as said above, combat is teh boring.
He's must be Hemo'ing with a two-hander. I really should train up my two-handed weapons so I can get 1600 Hemo's consistently.
One-eyed chicks are hot.
Aren't the Arena weapons 2.6 speed? Yeah I don't think it's possible to hit those crits unless you have some insane gear to back that up. That 2.6 speed is just too fast to see super Hemo crits for like 1600.
I'm not Hemo any more, but with Fool's Bane, I'd occasionally see a 1300-1400, mostly on Blindeye. In PvP gear, I'd say it's extremely unlikely, at best, to ever see a 1600 Hemo on a Frost Mage, let alone have that be an average.
Even so, he was given the benefit of the doubt; even assuming everything crit, it's still no where near enough to drop a Mage as fast as they claim.
I've got the fist weapon, I've seen a couple hemo crits that were around 1,500-1,550ish, so just shy of 1.6k. My gear is pretty solid but you could do better. I'm not saying that I average crit on mages (or anything) that high, just saying that it's possible.
One-eyed chicks are hot.
Who has hemo with deep raiding gear anyway?
A mage has what, ~10% damage reduction at most? Maybe 12-13% with Ice Armor ? One would need a ~1800 hemo crit to do that kind of damage. That's what, with Lethality, ~780 hemo or so (780*2.3 = 1794).
Without any damage buffs (like the +5% damage from world pvp), you would need about 2500 ap for that kind of hit with say Dragonmaw which is a decent hemo weapon, and not that difficult to attain if you can run heroics. 2500 AP is not too hard to get with decent gear and teamed with the right classes, though it would be more likely a group/raid environment than pvp. Especially with Deadliness.
I actually do not believe there is nothing wrong with a Hemo spec for a raid environment, though you do need the gear and focus on the right stats (such as focus more on AP and hit, than crit). I also believe it relies more on the player and how they play, then the spec, for the most part.
I also believe the "35% more damage in combat" to be very exaggerated. As long as you pick up some key talents, know how to play your class well, use your trinkets and abilities at the right time, most rogue builds should do comparable damage (within 10%, at most)*. Most of the time when people say this build sucks, or they tried the build and it blows, usually means they actually did not know what they were doing with that build, or did not have the right gear to test it out.
You wanna compare Hemo builds to combat sword/fists? Stop comparing with 1300 AP. Having unbuffed AP at 1700-1900, 15-20% hit, you can do quite well.
*note: I did say you have to have key talents, so you are not totally free on chosing builds, just it's not set in stone like most believe.
One-eyed chicks are hot.
With Talon/T2 crafted, he needs 2032 AP (unbuffed ofc since we're talking normally) to average 1600 crits on 0 armor. Prob another 100 - 200 to account for armor. Possible? Yes. Without raiding SSC a fair bit? Not really.
But this is really not a very important topic...We should be busy celebrating the patch.
I FORGIVE YOU BLUEBARON.
JAEF, however, is a fag.
I'm sure some of the people here would be interested to see your armory page.
Yes, please! See, cause I've got around 1200 AP and I'd love to see how I could up it another 500 points or so with ease.
Lollers
Sorry I never play my rogue anymore so I had to contribute to this thread at least a little.
Um.
GO MUTILATE?
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
It works for 5 mans too, so long as your tank is decent.
Also they are changing the animation to make it THAT MUCH COOLER.
with your hp being?
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Lightning%27s+Blade&n=Synonym
and my gear is far from impressive - please note my amazing boots.
I was combat forever and thought I'd be getting the glad. fist for sure...until I tried shadowstep for kicks.
All I do currently is arena, and it's amazing for pvp. Shadowstep + sap is killer in 5v5, especially when you pop cloak first and the shaman totems/consecration/whatever dont save them.
and priest...make sure you have inner fire on:
http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Korgath&n=Gnull
/shrug
You're afraid that we're going to steal your gear via armory?
people still won't believe you until you post either a rupture page or armory page. you'll be having to deal with the dicks either way now. sorry bluebaron, you're now damned if you do and damned if you don't.
the top rogue in my guild has decent armor and weapons but i haven't raided with him since he specced hemo to know what he hits for. i know my rogue alt with a dragonfist thingie is only critting hemoes for 1200 while dueling but i only have 1300AP on him.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)