It definately gets annoying dealing with the positioning restrictions of dagger builds. I was considering switching to combat when I had enough points to get the gladiator fist mainhand, but decided against it and went with the shanker. I realized that every build has weaknesses, and if I switched to combat I'm sure I would love not having to worry about staying behind my target or keeping poison up there. But I would miss the tons of combo points you get with a mutilate build, as well as find weakness, quick recovery, fleet footed...of course I could go with an adrenaline rush/quick recovery combat build but losing one of the most attractive combat talents (combat potency) makes it that much less appealing.
Instead I stuck with mutilate. Crip poison on your offhand and extensive shivving helps keep them from getting away. Low ping and fast reflexes help too lol. What I'm trying to say is pick the build you enjoy most and learn to overcome its weaknesses. I tried a build like yours and couldn't stand it. Not because it wasn't effective, but because I like having more sustained dps even if that means giving up burst. I felt like I was just setting up one big hit/combo, then juggling cooldowns and prep. Of course a premed-ambush followed by a 5-point cold blood evis with the berserking buff on an unsuspecting mage is a lot of fun. Its just not my style.
I've never seen anyone go stand with their back to a corner in the arena. It seems like standing still for so long would be suicide. Even with their back to the wall you can usually land a mutilate with some screwing around pressed up against the wall. But I'll deal with it if I have to.
I guess expose is a love-hate thing. I'm finding it compliments my play-style so I love it. I don't use it every fight by any means but its still very useful. Especially considering the alternatives. I could put the points in remorseless attacks (useless in arena) or one of the two poison talents. Easy choice for me.
Well I've only had the back to corner (worse than wall since back is 180) once, but it was damn annoying, esp since it was down to 2v2 at that point (did win though). Have lost a match due to BoF, and another purely because it was down to me vs a combat rogue each with a healer, both due to not getting BSs in. Admittedly that was part due to surprise attacks too, but hey.
I've heard that, as a Rogue, if you do not initiate combat(ESPECIALLY in PVP), your chances of survival take a shot to the kiwi's. How true is this?
I've also been wondering how effective is lallygagging around a Mage when they see you? As a mage myself, I know from experience that if I see a Rogue, all I do is count to 3 or 4, depending on the distance, and THEN cast Frost Nova, which usually traps him about 10 yards away from me, attempting to get behind me. Is the amount of help that standing around and letting the Mage THINK you're coming all that helpful, or should you have enough to not worry about getting fucked in the opening attack?
I've heard that, as a Rogue, if you do not initiate combat(ESPECIALLY in PVP), your chances of survival take a shot to the kiwi's. How true is this?
I've also been wondering how effective is lallygagging around a Mage when they see you? As a mage myself, I know from experience that if I see a Rogue, all I do is count to 3 or 4, depending on the distance, and THEN cast Frost Nova, which usually traps him about 10 yards away from me, attempting to get behind me. Is the amount of help that standing around and letting the Mage THINK you're coming all that helpful, or should you have enough to not worry about getting fucked in the opening attack?
Not getting the opener hurts rogue survival a lot more in duels than it does in group fights. With healers on both sides though and aoe's and stealth detection rampant in group fights I often don't get the opener. Sure the opener helps but its not a big deal if you don't land it. It's such a big deal in duels because it allows the rogue complete contol over the start of the fight. When it's more than 1v1 you don't have control over the whole fight anyway :P
I can usually land a cheapshot on a mage that knows I'm around. Whenever I stealth as soon as I know I'm out of sight I switch directions. It usually draws an arcane explosion or frost nova. I'd try and avoid using frost nova on where you think a rogue will be, as missing will waste your cooldown and arcane explosion is just as good. The standard mage tactic is to jump around spamming arcane explosion. That'll make it very hard for a rogue to close the distance.
Not getting the opener can turn the tide against you, but I still have alot of love for just charging upto them, gouging on the way through them and then proceeding to bring the hurt.
So feral druids. If a cat druid gets the jump on me (90% of the time, no MOD) they do the lolbleedstunlock thing, shift into bear, and hand me my ass. I think I got a few hits off on the last one.
I've heard that, as a Rogue, if you do not initiate combat(ESPECIALLY in PVP), your chances of survival take a shot to the kiwi's. How true is this?
I've also been wondering how effective is lallygagging around a Mage when they see you? As a mage myself, I know from experience that if I see a Rogue, all I do is count to 3 or 4, depending on the distance, and THEN cast Frost Nova, which usually traps him about 10 yards away from me, attempting to get behind me. Is the amount of help that standing around and letting the Mage THINK you're coming all that helpful, or should you have enough to not worry about getting fucked in the opening attack?
Not getting the opener hurts rogue survival a lot more in duels than it does in group fights. With healers on both sides though and aoe's and stealth detection rampant in group fights I often don't get the opener. Sure the opener helps but its not a big deal if you don't land it. It's such a big deal in duels because it allows the rogue complete contol over the start of the fight. When it's more than 1v1 you don't have control over the whole fight anyway :P
I can usually land a cheapshot on a mage that knows I'm around. Whenever I stealth as soon as I know I'm out of sight I switch directions. It usually draws an arcane explosion or frost nova. I'd try and avoid using frost nova on where you think a rogue will be, as missing will waste your cooldown and arcane explosion is just as good. The standard mage tactic is to jump around spamming arcane explosion. That'll make it very hard for a rogue to close the distance.
I tend not to jump around, as if I get Sap/Cheap Shotted mid-jump I have no idea where I'm facing till I right myself.
Speaking of Mages, here is a really nifty trick against them since they are an utter pain in the ass unless you are a dagger build. Being Hemo I used to use this technique all the damn time and it is very effective.
When you cheapshot, immediately gouge them. Most times they will insta-blink the second somebody stuns them. If you can get the gouge off right as they blink, they will be stuck gouged, unable to move. Leaving you free to have your way with them.
tCrumblyCracker: As a druid I really don't have any way to get out of stunlock aside from my pvp trinket. Hemo rogues give me a run for my money, and I'm usually 1:2 against them.
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
PvE wise, all the fights that are a challenge or actually matter are boss fights. And unless I'm mistaken, all bosses are immune to stuns. Making imp ks pretty much worthless, aside from trash. Of course there might be the rare boss thats stunnable that I don't know about, but in general they aren't.
I agree that quick recovery is very strong for pvp. I also agree that envenom has seemed underwhelming when I've used it. Requiring a five stack of deadly on your target, just to do damage that seemed about the same as evis. AND it consumes your deadly stack. Although maybe I just didn't give it a chance, as I barely use deadly as it is and thus can't use envenom often.
I contest the only way to really "screw" yourself for going PVE or PvP with Mut is deciding to go Opp or DW Spec.
EDIT- And didn't you, like, hate Mut Wavechaser?
Yes I did, but i've grown completely disgusted with sword builds having played them all into the god-damn ground. I need a change of pace and would also like to do some Arena. (If of course I can find a team....)
As a Hemo Rogue, your option of openers is limited. Garrote is Meh and they can still rape your face, Ghostly Strike is a joke, leaving you with Cheapshot.
If you can time it right, you can ruin a mages day with cheapshot if you can time that Gouge correctly.
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kaleeditySometimes science is more art than scienceRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
why wouldn't you cheapshot a mage
I mean garrote's good for a mid-vanish thing but how are you going to land a kidney shot?
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AngryThe glory I had witnessedwas just a sleight of handRegistered Userregular
edited April 2007
why do you consider garrote meh?
two second silence lets you get in atleast one more damage move before they blink and garrotes tend to hit really hard.
garrote, mutilate. mage frost novas and blinks. you have five cp on him and 20 seconds of blink free mage.
two second silence lets you get in atleast one more damage move before they blink and garrotes tend to hit really hard.
garrote, mutilate. mage frost novas and blinks. you have five cp on him and 20 seconds of blink free mage.
Hard to do that as a Hemo Rogue.
That two second silence is not even close to enough time to dish out enough damage as a Hemo Rogue. We don't have the burst DPS of a dagger build or the instant Cp generation of a single Mutilate. The only thing that keeps us on par with other builds is the length we can stunlock someone. Silencing a mage for 2 seconds as a Hemo Rogue just means you will live 2 seconds longer before he/she kills you.
Sap->Premed (if you gots it)->Garrote->Shiv->hemo = LOL FUCK YOU NOW U GOTS CRIPPLIN'.
makes it even better when you have the deadly throw gloves. He blinks right away? Fuck his ass with a Deadly Throw. He novas? CoS and sprint to him.
Yeah that works but fuck the Premed Cooldown, I use it whenever it's up so it never seems to be there when I do engage a Mage.
My method works great if you don't have shit for cooldowns up. CS > Gouge > Mage Blinks > Mage has 4 CP's on him (75% of the time) > stuck in gouge, and ready for you to go ahead and do whatever the hell you want with him. No Premed, Sprint or anything else necessary.
Sap->Premed (if you gots it)->Garrote->Shiv->hemo = LOL FUCK YOU NOW U GOTS CRIPPLIN'.
makes it even better when you have the deadly throw gloves. He blinks right away? Fuck his ass with a Deadly Throw. He novas? CoS and sprint to him.
Yeah that works but fuck the Premed Cooldown, I use it whenever it's up so it never seems to be there when I do engage a Mage.
My method works great if you don't have shit for cooldowns up. CS > Gouge > Mage Blinks > Mage has 4 CP's on him (75% of the time) > stuck in gouge, and ready for you to go ahead and do whatever the hell you want with him. No Premed, Sprint or anything else necessary.
Yeah, that's fun, but I think if you're fighting an Ice Mage and you use CoS early to force a block, that's one less block you have to worry about in the duel.
Sap->Premed (if you gots it)->Garrote->Shiv->hemo = LOL FUCK YOU NOW U GOTS CRIPPLIN'.
makes it even better when you have the deadly throw gloves. He blinks right away? Fuck his ass with a Deadly Throw. He novas? CoS and sprint to him.
Yeah that works but fuck the Premed Cooldown, I use it whenever it's up so it never seems to be there when I do engage a Mage.
My method works great if you don't have shit for cooldowns up. CS > Gouge > Mage Blinks > Mage has 4 CP's on him (75% of the time) > stuck in gouge, and ready for you to go ahead and do whatever the hell you want with him. No Premed, Sprint or anything else necessary.
Yeah, that's fun, but I think if you're fighting an Ice Mage and you use CoS early to force a block, that's one less block you have to worry about in the duel.
Yeah the addition of CloS really changes everything. God I love that skill.
That be some mightily low-hp mages there my good man. Unless all your attacks crit, I can't see that doing more than 5k dmg. And if he's frost there'd be an iceblock there.
Not that I have much trouble with mages myself, but the battles are always longer.
Also, I have to say warlocks are ridiculously easy to kill now, in 1v1. In fully prepared all CDs sac void + resummon etc duel I defeated one of the best PvP locks on the server (on the currently 2nd 5v5 team, 12k hp and 930 +dmg selfbuffed, demo) in 2 of 3 matches without breaking a sweat. The lost one was because he got a fear through CloS. This was with my 5-man combat spec (13/41//7). AR just made it faster, won our only duel with me mutilate too. I'm not a great PvPer, have very low hp for PvPing (7.4 k at the time), so I can only conclude it's almost as bad as it was before CloS (assuming you fought a decent demo lock ofc, I loled at destro before 2.0 too) only in our favor. Can't remember the last time I lost to a lock in BGs either, assuming he didn't bring a healer.
If you cant kill a mage as a hemo rogue, you either, A.) suck, or B.) have bad gear.
Garrote, shiv, CoS/sprint(sprint isnt essential) hemo hemo evis, dead mage
Yeah, seriously, don't fucking add the "hemo hemo evis". Don't patronize us by giving out some vague "lol all u do is this". It's was one of the most irritating things as a rogue to read. Just give us a basic idea of your opener, and give situational advice. Not step by step.
If you cant kill a mage as a hemo rogue, you either, A.) suck, or B.) have bad gear.
Garrote, shiv, CoS/sprint(sprint isnt essential) hemo hemo evis, dead mage
Yeah you're right, that's all there is to it.
:roll:
let's assume all his attacks crit.
garrote, shiv for 300-400? hemo for 900-1k, hemo for 900-1k, evis for 2.9k?
that's an amazing 5.5k damage if your attacks all crit. most mages that are serious into pvp will have at the very minimum 7k health unbuffed (not hard to achieve) so yeah. amazing strat you got.
If you cant kill a mage as a hemo rogue, you either, A.) suck, or B.) have bad gear.
Garrote, shiv, CoS/sprint(sprint isnt essential) hemo hemo evis, dead mage
Yeah you're right, that's all there is to it.
:roll:
let's assume all his attacks crit.
garrote, shiv for 300-400? hemo for 900-1k, hemo for 900-1k, evis for 2.9k?
that's an amazing 5.5k damage if your attacks all crit. most mages that are serious into pvp will have at the very minimum 7k health unbuffed (not hard to achieve) so yeah. amazing strat you got.
Posts
Instead I stuck with mutilate. Crip poison on your offhand and extensive shivving helps keep them from getting away. Low ping and fast reflexes help too lol. What I'm trying to say is pick the build you enjoy most and learn to overcome its weaknesses. I tried a build like yours and couldn't stand it. Not because it wasn't effective, but because I like having more sustained dps even if that means giving up burst. I felt like I was just setting up one big hit/combo, then juggling cooldowns and prep. Of course a premed-ambush followed by a 5-point cold blood evis with the berserking buff on an unsuspecting mage is a lot of fun. Its just not my style.
I've never seen anyone go stand with their back to a corner in the arena. It seems like standing still for so long would be suicide. Even with their back to the wall you can usually land a mutilate with some screwing around pressed up against the wall. But I'll deal with it if I have to.
I guess expose is a love-hate thing. I'm finding it compliments my play-style so I love it. I don't use it every fight by any means but its still very useful. Especially considering the alternatives. I could put the points in remorseless attacks (useless in arena) or one of the two poison talents. Easy choice for me.
I've also been wondering how effective is lallygagging around a Mage when they see you? As a mage myself, I know from experience that if I see a Rogue, all I do is count to 3 or 4, depending on the distance, and THEN cast Frost Nova, which usually traps him about 10 yards away from me, attempting to get behind me. Is the amount of help that standing around and letting the Mage THINK you're coming all that helpful, or should you have enough to not worry about getting fucked in the opening attack?
Not getting the opener hurts rogue survival a lot more in duels than it does in group fights. With healers on both sides though and aoe's and stealth detection rampant in group fights I often don't get the opener. Sure the opener helps but its not a big deal if you don't land it. It's such a big deal in duels because it allows the rogue complete contol over the start of the fight. When it's more than 1v1 you don't have control over the whole fight anyway :P
I can usually land a cheapshot on a mage that knows I'm around. Whenever I stealth as soon as I know I'm out of sight I switch directions. It usually draws an arcane explosion or frost nova. I'd try and avoid using frost nova on where you think a rogue will be, as missing will waste your cooldown and arcane explosion is just as good. The standard mage tactic is to jump around spamming arcane explosion. That'll make it very hard for a rogue to close the distance.
I tend not to jump around, as if I get Sap/Cheap Shotted mid-jump I have no idea where I'm facing till I right myself.
When you cheapshot, immediately gouge them. Most times they will insta-blink the second somebody stuns them. If you can get the gouge off right as they blink, they will be stuck gouged, unable to move. Leaving you free to have your way with them.
:winky:
tCrumblyCracker: As a druid I really don't have any way to get out of stunlock aside from my pvp trinket. Hemo rogues give me a run for my money, and I'm usually 1:2 against them.
Yes I did, but i've grown completely disgusted with sword builds having played them all into the god-damn ground. I need a change of pace and would also like to do some Arena. (If of course I can find a team....)
As a Hemo Rogue, your option of openers is limited. Garrote is Meh and they can still rape your face, Ghostly Strike is a joke, leaving you with Cheapshot.
If you can time it right, you can ruin a mages day with cheapshot if you can time that Gouge correctly.
I mean garrote's good for a mid-vanish thing but how are you going to land a kidney shot?
two second silence lets you get in atleast one more damage move before they blink and garrotes tend to hit really hard.
garrote, mutilate. mage frost novas and blinks. you have five cp on him and 20 seconds of blink free mage.
Hard to do that as a Hemo Rogue.
That two second silence is not even close to enough time to dish out enough damage as a Hemo Rogue. We don't have the burst DPS of a dagger build or the instant Cp generation of a single Mutilate. The only thing that keeps us on par with other builds is the length we can stunlock someone. Silencing a mage for 2 seconds as a Hemo Rogue just means you will live 2 seconds longer before he/she kills you.
makes it even better when you have the deadly throw gloves. He blinks right away? Fuck his ass with a Deadly Throw. He novas? CoS and sprint to him.
Yeah that works but fuck the Premed Cooldown, I use it whenever it's up so it never seems to be there when I do engage a Mage.
My method works great if you don't have shit for cooldowns up. CS > Gouge > Mage Blinks > Mage has 4 CP's on him (75% of the time) > stuck in gouge, and ready for you to go ahead and do whatever the hell you want with him. No Premed, Sprint or anything else necessary.
Yeah the addition of CloS really changes everything. God I love that skill.
Anyway, what're the quests like for an orc rogue? What are they, how hard, where, etc. All that fun stuff.
Garrote, shiv, CoS/sprint(sprint isnt essential) hemo hemo evis, dead mage
Not that I have much trouble with mages myself, but the battles are always longer.
Also, I have to say warlocks are ridiculously easy to kill now, in 1v1. In fully prepared all CDs sac void + resummon etc duel I defeated one of the best PvP locks on the server (on the currently 2nd 5v5 team, 12k hp and 930 +dmg selfbuffed, demo) in 2 of 3 matches without breaking a sweat. The lost one was because he got a fear through CloS. This was with my 5-man combat spec (13/41//7). AR just made it faster, won our only duel with me mutilate too. I'm not a great PvPer, have very low hp for PvPing (7.4 k at the time), so I can only conclude it's almost as bad as it was before CloS (assuming you fought a decent demo lock ofc, I loled at destro before 2.0 too) only in our favor. Can't remember the last time I lost to a lock in BGs either, assuming he didn't bring a healer.
Yeah, seriously, don't fucking add the "hemo hemo evis". Don't patronize us by giving out some vague "lol all u do is this". It's was one of the most irritating things as a rogue to read. Just give us a basic idea of your opener, and give situational advice. Not step by step.
Rogue rogue
1 2 3 4 5
"I can't stop here, this is Rogue Country"
FFBE: 838,975,107
Dokkan: 1668363315
make the shoop and I'll poast.
Yeah you're right, that's all there is to it.
:roll:
I'm sorry, I had to...
you are quite possibly the worst frost mage ever
it means for the next 20 seconds you have free reign to stun his ass
let's assume all his attacks crit.
garrote, shiv for 300-400? hemo for 900-1k, hemo for 900-1k, evis for 2.9k?
that's an amazing 5.5k damage if your attacks all crit. most mages that are serious into pvp will have at the very minimum 7k health unbuffed (not hard to achieve) so yeah. amazing strat you got.
lol wut is resilience
What are you going to do against this guy? http://armory.worldofwarcraft.com/#character-sheet.xml?r=Sargeras&n=Deaddread
basically, most of you people on this thread, are terrible at your class.
God you are so full of shit.
Why don't you shower us with some screenshots of your impossible feats of excellence? Better yet, post your armory profile while you're at it.
Did you crawl here from the official forums?
Like Wave said, SS or it didnt happen / you don't matter.
Look out for those ice mages...
THEY'RE ON THE RAPES