Everyone one of whom had an inherently broken kit. Sure, they're fun. I'll give you that, but all of them have been stupidly strong at release, and continue to be some of the best in breed.
Hell, just put him on support design, and he'd be fine. Just don't let him design other champs.
you realize every single one of the feralpony champions you listed have been OP at one point in time
Of them, only graves was truly broken at launch. And they had to fix him repeatedly, so minus points for that.
The rest of his heroes have ebb and flowed as the game, itemization, and metagame has shifted.
Everyone one of CertianlyTs champs has been insanely OP at release and taken many months and patches to fix (except for maybe Zed, who took season 3 itemization to shine). Even so, after repeated nerfs many of these heroes are still at the top of the food chain, and zyra is particular is worrisome because she's not even supposed to be a support at all.
i hate the whole "XXX isn't supposed to be a support" thing.
Riot has repeatedly nerfed supports, hard. Zyra has a ton of utility, does loads of damage without items, and actually scales well if she does get fed. It's the same reason that Annie and Fiddles are top tier supports right now. To fix the problem, supports need to scale appropriately, or there needs to be a magic fence that keeps everyone that isnt tagged Marksman or Support out of botlane for 10 minutes.
It's okay though, because next season traditional supports are getting their damage nerfed and some low ratios added to their utility.
I mean it's not like the average support dealt relatively low damage with items already or anything.
Everyone one of whom had an inherently broken kit. Sure, they're fun. I'll give you that, but all of them have been stupidly strong at release, and continue to be some of the best in breed.
Hell, just put him on support design, and he'd be fine. Just don't let him design other champs.
you realize every single one of the feralpony champions you listed have been OP at one point in time
Of them, only graves was truly broken at launch. And they had to fix him repeatedly, so minus points for that.
The rest of his heroes have ebb and flowed as the game, itemization, and metagame has shifted.
Everyone one of CertianlyTs champs has been insanely OP at release and taken many months and patches to fix (except for maybe Zed, who took season 3 itemization to shine). Even so, after repeated nerfs many of these heroes are still at the top of the food chain, and zyra is particular is worrisome because she's not even supposed to be a support at all.
i hate the whole "XXX isn't supposed to be a support" thing.
Riot has repeatedly nerfed supports, hard. Zyra has a ton of utility, does loads of damage without items, and actually scales well if she does get fed. It's the same reason that Annie and Fiddles are top tier supports right now. To fix the problem, supports need to scale appropriately, or there needs to be a magic fence that keeps everyone that isnt tagged Marksman or Support out of botlane for 10 minutes.
It's okay though, because next season traditional supports are getting their damage nerfed and some low ratios added to their utility.
I mean it's not like the average support dealt relatively low damage with items already or anything.
Look,
Tanks bring utility and tankiness
Mages bring damage and utility
supports bring utility and get nerfed if they display the other traits.
Everyone one of whom had an inherently broken kit. Sure, they're fun. I'll give you that, but all of them have been stupidly strong at release, and continue to be some of the best in breed.
Hell, just put him on support design, and he'd be fine. Just don't let him design other champs.
you realize every single one of the feralpony champions you listed have been OP at one point in time
Of them, only graves was truly broken at launch. And they had to fix him repeatedly, so minus points for that.
The rest of his heroes have ebb and flowed as the game, itemization, and metagame has shifted.
Everyone one of CertianlyTs champs has been insanely OP at release and taken many months and patches to fix (except for maybe Zed, who took season 3 itemization to shine). Even so, after repeated nerfs many of these heroes are still at the top of the food chain, and zyra is particular is worrisome because she's not even supposed to be a support at all.
Players not knowing how to build or play a champion doesn't make them not "truly broken" at launch.
Fizz was devastating at launch but no one played him professionally except Shushei. Likewise Rumble with TreeEskimo. The western scene was hugely resistant to change at that time though and denied their ability to lane bully and murder fools. Hecarim is the only one you could argue wasn't "op at release" but the things he could do with lane ganks didn't change with the buffs they gave him. And if you don't think Jayce was broken as FUCK at launch, then you haven't met my friend Talith, which is strange because you talk with him in thread every day.
I don't fault design and development for not understanding how strong a hero can be when piloted by the .01% of the player base, and particularly when it takes the players many iterations in the wild to figure out how strong that champion is.
I do fault design and development when champs are released and its obvious to everyone they've been overtuned in a scant few hours.
I have to take points off Volty for being responsible for me still having to listen to complaints about Silver Bolts. How could you not realize that's really going to piss people off? Of course, the funny thing is that's not even the strongest part of Vayne, but years later the NO COUNTERPLAY still continues.
SK Gaming vs CLG
SK Gaming runs Jayce (Triforce Jayce, loss)
Azubu Frost vs CLG
no Jayce
Invictus vs SK Gaming
SK Gaming runs Jayce (Triforce Jayce, loss)
Dignitas vs CLG EU
No Jayce
Najin Sword vs Saigon Jokers
Jayce pick
!!! FIRST JAYCE THAT DOES NOT BUILD TRIFORCE
MakNoon builds two Doran's, two Bloodthirsters, a Brutalizer, and Boots 1. He goes 7-1-6
Saigon Jokers vs CLG EU
Saigon Jokers pick Jayce
CLG EU is awarded the medal of first team to beat Bloodthirster Jayce
Dignitas vs Najin Sword
no jayce
GROUP STAGE OVER
Moscow 5 vs Invictus Gaming
Moscow 5 bans Jayce both games
Taipei Assassins vs Najin Sword
Game 1: TPA runs Jayce, win
Game 2: TPA ban Jayce
TSM vs Azubu Frost
Game 1: Frost runs Jayce - Infamously, Dyrus picks Darius into Jayce. He gets destroyed.
Game 2: TSM picks Jayce. Unlike Azubu Frost, they run Triforce Jayce. He gets destroyed.
CLG EU vs Team WE
Game 1: No Jayce, WE wins.
Game 2: Wickd is the first western player to run AD Jayce. CLG wins.
Game 3. Wickd continues his streak with AD Jayce. CLG wins.
SEMIFINALS
Moscow 5 vs TPA
Moscow 5 bans Jayce all 3 games
CLG EU vs Azubu Frost
Game 1: CLG EU win running AD Jayce
Game 2/3: Azubu Frost ban Jayce
FINALS:
TPA vs Azubu Frost
Game 1: Frost bans Jayce
Game 2: TPA bans Jayce
Game 3: Frost bans Jayce
Game 4: Frost pick Jayce, but TPA win
So where exactly is this "It took until Muramana for people to realize Jayce was good" coming from again? The fact that the NA style Jayce got repeatedly destroyed at the Season 2 finals, while Real Jayce was extremely successful?
since when was it "skillful" to put an E in front of you and Q from where no one could see you
Because then you're doing it wrong. You fire the Q first, then you E to give it max distance
The distance Q travels is not affected by where the E is. Q has two potential distances: Unboosted distance, and Boosted distance. The location of E does not matter, allowing you to fire a full-speed Q from your character model.
You're confusing correlation with causation. Jayce became a pick or ban monster at the end of season 2. Conveniently, the end of season 2 also introduced a bunch of new items. The two happened in sync. Out of the 31 games at the World Championships, Jayce was not picked or banned in 5 of them. That is a pick or ban monster and the only reason he wasn't picked or banned more was because such top lane monstrosities as Shen still existed back then as well.
since when was it "skillful" to put an E in front of you and Q from where no one could see you
Because then you're doing it wrong. You fire the Q first, then you E to give it max distance
The distance Q travels is not affected by where the E is. Q has two potential distances: Unboosted distance, and Boosted distance. The location of E does not matter, allowing you to fire a full-speed Q from your character model.
Sounds like I'm not the one doing it wrong.
I think we're talking past each other a bit, but we're onto the same idea. When I was first researching guides on how to play Jayce I came across this quote:
"If you don't want people to dodge your E-Q combo , you can simply fire the Q before and then E , the faster you do this the closer you can put your gate from you and the harder it will be to dodge it."
Which is what I think we both agree on. Boosted Q gives max distance, regardless of where the gate is, but you want to E->Q to reduce the time someone can dodge the Q.
Unless, I am massively misunderstanding the mechanics at play here.
Anyway because of how this conversation started don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't like Jayce's design or FeralPony's work or anything, but the idea that he was balanced on release is an incredibly NA-centric view. NA pro teams and streamers did not have a strong handle on Jayce, but other regions were starting to put him through his paces. He was very much something to be afraid of and part of the big scary toplane crew.
since when was it "skillful" to put an E in front of you and Q from where no one could see you
Because then you're doing it wrong. You fire the Q first, then you E to give it max distance
The distance Q travels is not affected by where the E is. Q has two potential distances: Unboosted distance, and Boosted distance. The location of E does not matter, allowing you to fire a full-speed Q from your character model.
Sounds like I'm not the one doing it wrong.
I think we're talking past each other a bit, but we're onto the same idea. When I was first researching guides on how to play Jayce I came across this quote:
"If you don't want people to dodge your E-Q combo , you can simply fire the Q before and then E , the faster you do this the closer you can put your gate from you and the harder it will be to dodge it."
Which is what I think we both agree on. Boosted Q gives max distance, regardless of where the gate is, but you want to E->Q to reduce the time someone can dodge the Q.
Unless, I am massively misunderstanding the mechanics at play here.
oh okay we're arguing technicalities then never mind
yeah the goal is to drop the gate close to you to speed the thing up as fast as possible while giving as little of a tell to the enemy that you're going to do it
Anyway because of how this conversation started don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you can't like Jayce's design or FeralPony's work or anything, but the idea that he was balanced on release is an incredibly NA-centric view. NA pro teams and streamers did not have a strong handle on Jayce, but other regions were starting to put him through his paces. He was very much something to be afraid of and part of the big scary toplane crew.
since when was it "skillful" to put an E in front of you and Q from where no one could see you
Because then you're doing it wrong. You fire the Q first, then you E to give it max distance
The distance Q travels is not affected by where the E is. Q has two potential distances: Unboosted distance, and Boosted distance. The location of E does not matter, allowing you to fire a full-speed Q from your character model.
Sounds like I'm not the one doing it wrong.
I think we're talking past each other a bit, but we're onto the same idea. When I was first researching guides on how to play Jayce I came across this quote:
"If you don't want people to dodge your E-Q combo , you can simply fire the Q before and then E , the faster you do this the closer you can put your gate from you and the harder it will be to dodge it."
Which is what I think we both agree on. Boosted Q gives max distance, regardless of where the gate is, but you want to E->Q to reduce the time someone can dodge the Q.
Unless, I am massively misunderstanding the mechanics at play here.
oh okay we're arguing technicalities then never mind
yeah the goal is to drop the gate close to you to speed the thing up as fast as possible while giving as little of a tell to the enemy that you're going to do it
Oh and don't get me wrong either, I don't mean to imply Jayce was balanced either - he absolutely was not for the highest caliber of players.
I'm just vastly more forgiving towards releasing an OP champion that takes the regions a couple of months to figure out, versus releasing champs that everyone pretty much agrees are OP right out of the gate.
cptruggedI think it has something to do with free will.Registered Userregular
edited November 2013
It's almost like we may go back to somewhat pre euro-lane meta. I mean the entire basis of the support role is utility with little money. If you bring the duo lane in line to even close money between the two participants then that really blows the doors off of the second spot in the duo lane.
Jayce was really rough when his E was magic damage, and did a % of HP, so even if you fucked up your combos and let some get on your face, you could still knock them back and punish them, while leaving your opponent in a difficult point when deciding which defenses to itemize for.
That's what made even bad Jayce players dangerous in top lane, and one of the many reasons why he was so powerful, including the cheaper cost and relatively short CD on his E.
I mean, you could suck super hard and just melee form, Q + auto + E and walk away and have chunked someone out. And that is not exactly a high skill cap harass combo.
jinx is da bes all adc should be like jinx and verbally inform people they're about to die when they use their ult
lucian does it too but he's usually speaking to minions
yeahhh, I mean I used to like lucian but comparing his ult to Jinx's
I mean Jinx's ult really feels like an ultimate attack, if you fight conservatively in a team fight and eat your vegetables you get a delicious nuclear ice cream multi kill if you can survive until they're all low
then you take off like a jet fighter, play kenny loggins, and scoop up a pentakill
Lee Sin takes tremendous skill and familiarity to pilot correctly, and the mind games he promotes in higher level play are some of the most interesting and rewarding out there.
He has AOE burst and AOE hard CC in his ult, and it has a laughable cooldown. Yes, he does not do very much magic damage, and he doesn't have a resistance shred. There are literally several ways that saying he does everything is an exaggeration, which should tell you how obscenely overloaded his kit is.
i'm pretty ok with champs being op out the gate because thresh was the best champion of 2013
and that is a scientific fact 100% trust
vi and jinx are the runner ups (also op at launch!)
Vi was not OP at launch, and Vi and Jinx were the best characters to come out of this year. Not close.
good news, I was mistaken and Vi actually came out in 2012 anyway, not 2013, and yes, she was op... her synergy with the ridiculous black cleaver made it worse
they nerfed black cleaver... and a couple months later, they nerfed vi!
These changes reduce her early jungle presence by slowing down her clearing speed. We reintroduced counterplay to Vault Breaker by rewarding opponents for interrupting her while she is charging up.
Base attack damage reduced to 54 from 58.
Vault Breaker
Now goes on a 3 second cooldown and refunds 50% of the Mana cost when interrupted instead of fully refreshing the cooldown and refunding 100% of the Mana cost.
Denting Blows
Damage reduced to 4/5.5/7/8.5/10% of maximum Health from 6/7/8/9/10%.
she then fell into a lull for a couple months while people were wary of her nerfs. then koreans played vi in ogn and here we are today
edit: I think I recall watching ogn and vi being played and INANTP posting "guess who's back?" with a cool pic of Vi iirc
Lee Sin takes tremendous skill and familiarity to pilot correctly, and the mind games he promotes in higher level play are some of the most interesting and rewarding out there.
He has AOE burst and AOE hard CC in his ult, and it has a laughable cooldown. Yes, he does not do very much magic damage, and he doesn't have a resistance shred. There are literally several ways that saying he does everything is an exaggeration, which should tell you how obscenely overloaded his kit is.
And he may need to be played well to make *the plays*, but he can just bully people out of the jungle by walking up and just landing everything and sheilding the retaliation.
Everyone one of whom had an inherently broken kit. Sure, they're fun. I'll give you that, but all of them have been stupidly strong at release, and continue to be some of the best in breed.
Hell, just put him on support design, and he'd be fine. Just don't let him design other champs.
Awesomely enough, last year at Pax East I met Feral Pony at the LoL bar crawl. I had just made Gold using only Fizz. I told him such. I didn't really understand why he had such a shit eating grin the whole time.
Jayce was really rough when his E was magic damage, and did a % of HP, so even if you fucked up your combos and let some get on your face, you could still knock them back and punish them, while leaving your opponent in a difficult point when deciding which defenses to itemize for.
That's what made even bad Jayce players dangerous in top lane, and one of the many reasons why he was so powerful, including the cheaper cost and relatively short CD on his E.
I mean, you could suck super hard and just melee form, Q + auto + E and walk away and have chunked someone out. And that is not exactly a high skill cap harass combo.
Jayce's hammer E still does magic damage, 20% max HP at rank 5 with a 1.0 bonus AD ratio. It was wildly broken at first because it ALSO had base damage on top of the % and ad ratio.
The only reason he wasn't immediately seen as OP as fuck is that in NA the special breed of geniuses we have in our region looked at his kit and saw 1.0 AD on his hammer Q, 1.68 bonus AD on his EQ cannon, 1.0 bonus AD on his hammer E, 3.6 total AD on his cannon W and all that and somehow missed that building nothing but AD and penetration was going to make him broken.
They had to drastically increase the CD on his E, increase his mana costs all over the place, and remove the base damage from his hammer E and he's still a strong champion.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
edited November 2013
I really need to get back into Irelia. Such a fun champ to play, just wish there were cooler skins for her. Or update her art.
Stragint on
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Posts
It took a pretty decent source of infinite mana for AD champs to make him the monster he was
since when was it "skillful" to put an E in front of you and Q from where no one could see you
It's okay though, because next season traditional supports are getting their damage nerfed and some low ratios added to their utility.
I mean it's not like the average support dealt relatively low damage with items already or anything.
Jayce would be better if his ult was a suplex.
i'm a butt
Look,
Tanks bring utility and tankiness
Mages bring damage and utility
supports bring utility and get nerfed if they display the other traits.
This is how balance works
I don't fault design and development for not understanding how strong a hero can be when piloted by the .01% of the player base, and particularly when it takes the players many iterations in the wild to figure out how strong that champion is.
I do fault design and development when champs are released and its obvious to everyone they've been overtuned in a scant few hours.
Yeah and it's really burst too! He's like a mage!
Because then you're doing it wrong. You fire the Q first, then you E to give it max distance
GAMES, IN ORDER:
Azubu Frost vs Invictus Gaming
Frost bans Jayce
Invictus Gaming vs CLG
CLG bans Jayce
SK Gaming vs Azubu Frost
No Jayce appearance
SK Gaming vs CLG
SK Gaming runs Jayce (Triforce Jayce, loss)
Azubu Frost vs CLG
no Jayce
Invictus vs SK Gaming
SK Gaming runs Jayce (Triforce Jayce, loss)
Dignitas vs CLG EU
No Jayce
Najin Sword vs Saigon Jokers
Jayce pick
!!! FIRST JAYCE THAT DOES NOT BUILD TRIFORCE
MakNoon builds two Doran's, two Bloodthirsters, a Brutalizer, and Boots 1. He goes 7-1-6
CLG EU vs Najin Sword
CLG bans Jayce
Dignitas vs Saigon Jokers
Saigon Jokers picks Jayce - Bloodthirsters! Saigon Jokers win
Saigon Jokers vs CLG EU
Saigon Jokers pick Jayce
CLG EU is awarded the medal of first team to beat Bloodthirster Jayce
Dignitas vs Najin Sword
no jayce
GROUP STAGE OVER
Moscow 5 vs Invictus Gaming
Moscow 5 bans Jayce both games
Taipei Assassins vs Najin Sword
Game 1: TPA runs Jayce, win
Game 2: TPA ban Jayce
TSM vs Azubu Frost
Game 1: Frost runs Jayce - Infamously, Dyrus picks Darius into Jayce. He gets destroyed.
Game 2: TSM picks Jayce. Unlike Azubu Frost, they run Triforce Jayce. He gets destroyed.
CLG EU vs Team WE
Game 1: No Jayce, WE wins.
Game 2: Wickd is the first western player to run AD Jayce. CLG wins.
Game 3. Wickd continues his streak with AD Jayce. CLG wins.
SEMIFINALS
Moscow 5 vs TPA
Moscow 5 bans Jayce all 3 games
CLG EU vs Azubu Frost
Game 1: CLG EU win running AD Jayce
Game 2/3: Azubu Frost ban Jayce
FINALS:
TPA vs Azubu Frost
Game 1: Frost bans Jayce
Game 2: TPA bans Jayce
Game 3: Frost bans Jayce
Game 4: Frost pick Jayce, but TPA win
Source: http://lol.gamepedia.com/Season_2_World_Championship/Picks_and_Bans/Group_Stage
So where exactly is this "It took until Muramana for people to realize Jayce was good" coming from again? The fact that the NA style Jayce got repeatedly destroyed at the Season 2 finals, while Real Jayce was extremely successful?
The distance Q travels is not affected by where the E is. Q has two potential distances: Unboosted distance, and Boosted distance. The location of E does not matter, allowing you to fire a full-speed Q from your character model.
Sounds like I'm not the one doing it wrong.
I think we're talking past each other a bit, but we're onto the same idea. When I was first researching guides on how to play Jayce I came across this quote:
"If you don't want people to dodge your E-Q combo , you can simply fire the Q before and then E , the faster you do this the closer you can put your gate from you and the harder it will be to dodge it."
Which is what I think we both agree on. Boosted Q gives max distance, regardless of where the gate is, but you want to E->Q to reduce the time someone can dodge the Q.
Unless, I am massively misunderstanding the mechanics at play here.
oh okay we're arguing technicalities then never mind
yeah the goal is to drop the gate close to you to speed the thing up as fast as possible while giving as little of a tell to the enemy that you're going to do it
Oh and don't get me wrong either, I don't mean to imply Jayce was balanced either - he absolutely was not for the highest caliber of players.
I'm just vastly more forgiving towards releasing an OP champion that takes the regions a couple of months to figure out, versus releasing champs that everyone pretty much agrees are OP right out of the gate.
I think we're ok? I don't their either INANTP or myself are upset or openly hostile here. We're just having a discussion?
That's what made even bad Jayce players dangerous in top lane, and one of the many reasons why he was so powerful, including the cheaper cost and relatively short CD on his E.
I mean, you could suck super hard and just melee form, Q + auto + E and walk away and have chunked someone out. And that is not exactly a high skill cap harass combo.
and that is a scientific fact 100% trust
vi and jinx are the runner ups (also op at launch!)
silly ole bear
Vi was not OP at launch, and Vi and Jinx were the best characters to come out of this year. Not close.
lucian does it too but he's usually speaking to minions
me too
bear hugs
yeahhh, I mean I used to like lucian but comparing his ult to Jinx's
I mean Jinx's ult really feels like an ultimate attack, if you fight conservatively in a team fight and eat your vegetables you get a delicious nuclear ice cream multi kill if you can survive until they're all low
then you take off like a jet fighter, play kenny loggins, and scoop up a pentakill
good news, I was mistaken and Vi actually came out in 2012 anyway, not 2013, and yes, she was op... her synergy with the ridiculous black cleaver made it worse
they nerfed black cleaver... and a couple months later, they nerfed vi!
she then fell into a lull for a couple months while people were wary of her nerfs. then koreans played vi in ogn and here we are today
edit: I think I recall watching ogn and vi being played and INANTP posting "guess who's back?" with a cool pic of Vi iirc
And he may need to be played well to make *the plays*, but he can just bully people out of the jungle by walking up and just landing everything and sheilding the retaliation.
PSN: BrightWing13 FFX|V:ARR Bright Asuna
Awesomely enough, last year at Pax East I met Feral Pony at the LoL bar crawl. I had just made Gold using only Fizz. I told him such. I didn't really understand why he had such a shit eating grin the whole time.
Jayce's hammer E still does magic damage, 20% max HP at rank 5 with a 1.0 bonus AD ratio. It was wildly broken at first because it ALSO had base damage on top of the % and ad ratio.
The only reason he wasn't immediately seen as OP as fuck is that in NA the special breed of geniuses we have in our region looked at his kit and saw 1.0 AD on his hammer Q, 1.68 bonus AD on his EQ cannon, 1.0 bonus AD on his hammer E, 3.6 total AD on his cannon W and all that and somehow missed that building nothing but AD and penetration was going to make him broken.
They had to drastically increase the CD on his E, increase his mana costs all over the place, and remove the base damage from his hammer E and he's still a strong champion.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
frostbooty pls
Never seen it in game, I'll look it up.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.