You know I think I'm going to do my first play through of this on classic. For EU, my first was normal, to learn the beats of the game, and then classic. At the time I didn't know how repetitive EU was, so it was a true disservice in hindsight.
It's already apparent it won't be as big an issue this time around, but still.
0
Options
WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
I'm going to start on Legend.
After I have wept sufficiently, I'll move to...whatever they're calling Classic this time.
I actually think incorporating gambler's fallacy, or some equivalent is really good game design, because it helps normalize results towards expected values. It has been used with resounding success in MOBA/MMO critical hits, which often deliberately aim for a 25% crit rate happening once every 4 hits or so, rather than it being a streaky crit-crit-crit-crit-crit, which is likely enough over large numbers of games, and can ruin a PVP fight.
The Normal mode calculation was too player biased for a non-easy mode, but I think it is a good idea.
And for Aegeri since I know you come from a pen and paper background, a lot of successful systems have things like Fate points, action points, narrative control, etc. that help mitigate pure RNG. Of course, such a thing would be very in theme with XCOM, as instead of the gambler's fallacy system to normalize hits over a single mission, you could have pure RNG, but then use a Commander Point system for those really important rolls.
In my experience, "let the dice fall where they may!" sounds more fun than it actually is, and can mess up other gameplay systems when it delivers weird results.
In general I super agree with you (and I loooove systems that implement the gambler's fallacy) though I'm not sure a system like that belongs in XCOM.
XCOM has (among others) two major overarching mechanical themes.
1. Being attacked by an enemy on the enemy turn is a BIG deal
2. Mistakes will be punished harshly, and weaknesses will be exploited just as harshly
This isn't news to anyone in this thread of course. However, the whole XCOM MO of "make sure you kill the aliens before they can shoot, or, worst case scenario, smoke, flashbang, hunker behind cover, give them the biggest hit penalty you possibly can" also relies on purity of the RNG to work.
I think you can do both, but this is a really good post.
As a practical example:
a. The actual existing XCOM :EU system where only >50% chance shots increase your aim upon missing.
b. On the reverse, only applying the opposite to aliens when they are shooting at people in cover.
Normalized crits do not work in MOBAs or in games like xcom. I can explain in depth later but the crux of the issue is that order matters and so no amount of normalization can work but it simultaneously modified enouncter math in ways that are not particularly valuable. It would be especially bad to give this mechanic to aliens (because it modified the risk/reward given that you know prior events)
Using an AP system or vats type crits for xcom (with no aliens crits) would work just fine though.
I'm not sure how I feel about the fact that they've tweaked the accuracy formula such that a point blank shot is no longer 100% to hit. Hell, even swords can miss from the sound of it. Don't give my guys more opportunities to miss! I guess the other side of the coin is that Chrysalid and Zombie attacks can also miss now, which is something.
"Welcome to earf style stogies" got me to the the OP on a slow work day. That led me to both of Beagles I/I seasons. Now I'm a $15 dollar backer of the humble bundle downloading EU. Well played thread, well played.
So like I mentioned a few pages ago, decided to fire up EW after not playing it for almost...2 years? Wow...to fiddle around with in anticipation of 2's impending arrival.
I've dropped 12 hours into this in two days.
...fuck
XBL: Jhnny Cash PSN: Jhnny_Cash Steam ID: http://steamcommunity.com/id/hypephb 3DS: 0619-4582-9630 Nintendo Network ID: DBrickashaw
You might know me as D'Brickashaw on Steam.
+4
Options
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I did the same thing. It's terrible guys. Don't do it.
So apparently, on the Abductor, with the big corridors leading in and out of the ship that have the energy fields on both sides, if you put two snipers flanking the door on the top side and a sectopod smack-dab outside the door on the outside, the snipers can't see the sectopod. Despite the fact that it's a GIANT-FUCKING-ASS robot standing right in a GIANT-FUCKING-ASS doorway. But as soon as your sniper steps on to the ramp, the sectopod can see them and blow them away!
This learning moment came after a reload when the sectopod teleported inside the ship and killed both my snipers. So yeah. I don't know how any of you play this game on Ironman.
So apparently, on the Abductor, with the big corridors leading in and out of the ship that have the energy fields on both sides, if you put two snipers flanking the door on the top side and a sectopod smack-dab outside the door on the outside, the snipers can't see the sectopod. Despite the fact that it's a GIANT-FUCKING-ASS robot standing right in a GIANT-FUCKING-ASS doorway. But as soon as your sniper steps on to the ramp, the sectopod can see them and blow them away!
This learning moment came after a reload when the sectopod teleported inside the ship and killed both my snipers. So yeah. I don't know how any of you play this game on Ironman.
I just accept that bullshit bugs are going to sometimes kill my mans.
I can't play without Ironman on because the temptation to just reload after a bad turn or mistake is too high, and then I begin to wonder what the point is to playing the game if my squad is effectively invincible because I'll just reload whenever a bad thing happens.
With Love and Courage
+4
Options
wiltingI had fun once and it was awfulRegistered Userregular
The worst is when you discover alt tab can save you. So hard to maintain the discipline. It's a good thing you have to do it quickly.
I play on ironman because I think there is a lot of fun to be had on trying to save everything after disasters. When all your senior dudes get wiped out in a shitty mission but a few middling dudes on the bench can rise up and save the day it can be pretty great. If it weren't Ironman I would probably just reload in those situations.
I'm a save scumming bitch. I wouldn't get through the tutorial mission in even Easy Ironman. Well, OK, I probably would in Easy.
And I probably could do an Ironman if I lived alone. Most of my reloads happen after I take one more turn after the husband or kids interrupt me with something trivial like pleas for food or reminders that it's 1 AM and I have work in the morning.
I'm a save scumming bitch. I wouldn't get through the tutorial mission in even Easy Ironman. Well, OK, I probably would in Easy.
And I probably could do an Ironman if I lived alone. Most of my reloads happen after I take one more turn after the husband or kids interrupt me with something trivial like pleas for food or reminders that it's 1 AM and I have work in the morning.
I assume you have a plan in place so that on the 4th you can provide them with a fortnight of rations and lock them in a cellar?
I'm a save scumming bitch. I wouldn't get through the tutorial mission in even Easy Ironman. Well, OK, I probably would in Easy.
And I probably could do an Ironman if I lived alone. Most of my reloads happen after I take one more turn after the husband or kids interrupt me with something trivial like pleas for food or reminders that it's 1 AM and I have work in the morning.
I assume you have a plan in place so that on the 4th you can provide them with a fortnight of rations and lock them in a cellar?
Hah. Grandma's house for the kids and a weekend out of town convention for the spouse, my timing is good.
+5
Options
DuriniaEvolved from Space PotatoesRegistered Userregular
We're nearing the end of this thread (97 pages) - just in time for XCOM 2. I'm prepping an overhaul of the OP to focus on the new one - If you've got stuff I should include (links, videos, tools, etc.), send me a PM.
For business reasons, I must preserve the outward sign of sanity.
--Mark Twain
+2
Options
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
And for @Aegeri since I know you come from a pen and paper background, a lot of successful systems have things like Fate points, action points, narrative control, etc. that help mitigate pure RNG. Of course, such a thing would be very in theme with XCOM, as instead of the gambler's fallacy system to normalize hits over a single mission, you could have pure RNG, but then use a Commander Point system for those really important rolls.
XCOM already does this though and its "Normalization" are the abilities of your soldiers. Things like squadsight (Shooting without the chance of being shot at in return), CCS (free shot if an enemy gets within 4 tiles), rapid fire (shoot twice, which is the second level feature of heavies), the sheer reliability of explosives and similar are all doing this. In fact, one of the core differences between early game in XCOM and late game is the number of ways you have of basically ensuring something dies this turn, from shooting more often (Double Tap on snipers, In the Zone etc), to being invisible so you can get closer or specifically engage the aliens you want (Ghost Armor, Battlescanners) the game is already letting you pick the best possible circumstances.
It doesn't need to, in any way, fuck with the RNG for anybody. XCOM2 demonstrates this nicely, where Normal just functions and when someone like NL takes a bunch of dreadful sub 60% shots to hit, they miss consistently. Instead of thinking 44% to hit will hit more than 80% of the time. Northernlion is actually my case model for why the RNG being manipulated on Normal completely makes it impossible for someone to adapt to higher difficulties. He's regularly thinking that a sub 60% shot to hit will hit regularly, because on Normal, it will. So instead of learning how the game actually works, like using flanking and tactics, Normal taught him he can sit somewhere and take pot-shots with a shit chance to hit and win.
Then he tries classic and just gets wrecked repeatedly, because Normal has in no way taught him how to play the game properly. This is all due to the cheating the game does being far too extreme and breaking the core concepts of the tactical gameplay. Many of the posters from the "Normal is fair, but why does classic and above cheat" type rants are in the same boat.
What beagle would do, is basically have a guy stand in the open and end his turn with overwatch. The aliens walk into the guy, people get their overwatch shots as they run for cover, and then the alien turn ends. It basically gives Xcom a free turn.
There's a lot of chatter on the official 2k forums about how it's a design issue that makes the game too easy.
But... isn't this basically the entire point of the concealment mechanic? Letting your soldiers get into optimal position before initiating combat? Is the idea that getting good positions is the intended effect, but your soldiers getting free overwatch shots when concealment is broken is an unintended effect? I wonder how they'll get around one while keeping the other.
There's a lot of chatter on the official 2k forums about how it's a design issue that makes the game too easy.
It also goes pretty hard against their admitted goal of getting players to not creep along at a snail's pace, since setting up an ambush Beaglerush style can take a lot of turns if you misjudge their patrol path.
0
Options
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Probably waiting for a patrol to walk into Overwatch, based on the ambush wording
Which... Seems like a weird thing to "fix"
Because it completely breaks the game in that you basically always exterminate the first group of aliens for free every turn, without any significant risk to you. As you can pick your engagements, you can always try to find the most "valuable" looking group - or those closest to the objective - to kill them very fast. Then you can set up in a more ideal spot to basically get the others as they come. It's a big deal to basically guarantee killing 25% of the aliens on the map first turn without them being able to do anything.
Personally, solutions like Itchy Trigger Tentacle or even my preference - aliens with grenades can chuck them at exposed soldiers before moving - would completely negate this being a viable strategy late game. I am kind of okay with it being a thing early on, but the aliens should adjust and be able to counter it (effectively at that) in the mid to late game once they are "Aware" of it. Remember that the stated design intent for concealment was getting a free shot before they could scatter on YOUR turn. This tactic breaks the design intent by giving you a free shot on THEIR turn and then a second entire turn to kill them.
Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
edited January 2016
1. This is for the first patrol, which ceases to be an advantage after being discovered. I fail to see how this makes the game "too easy."
2. Good luck doing this for dozens of turns on timed missions.
There's a lot of chatter on the official 2k forums about how it's a design issue that makes the game too easy.
But... isn't this basically the entire point of the concealment mechanic? Letting your soldiers get into optimal position before initiating combat? Is the idea that getting good positions is the intended effect, but your soldiers getting free overwatch shots when concealment is broken is an unintended effect? I wonder how they'll get around one while keeping the other.
Basically, the idea is like this.
The way Fraxis designed concealment was that you spot a pod, set up an ambush, put soldiers on overwatch, then have one shoot at the pod, and everyone's overwatch would trigger when the pod scattered, and then (if everyone's turn was done) enemy turn would start and any survivors would have a chance to shoot back.
The way most of the streamers who got their hands on the preview build have been doing it is the same for the first 3 steps, but instead of shooting and breaking concealment on their turn, they would set the final soldier in the patrol path of the pod, and put them on overwatch. On the enemy turn, they would spot the soldier, scatter, trigger everyone's overwatch, and the alien turn would end without them ever taking a shot, giving the player two whole turns worth of shots to take out a squad without any returning fire from the enemy, and that was what Fraxis has decided was making the game (or at least the first contact part) too easy.
There's a lot of chatter on the official 2k forums about how it's a design issue that makes the game too easy.
But... isn't this basically the entire point of the concealment mechanic? Letting your soldiers get into optimal position before initiating combat? Is the idea that getting good positions is the intended effect, but your soldiers getting free overwatch shots when concealment is broken is an unintended effect? I wonder how they'll get around one while keeping the other.
Maybe when you break concealment the squad you ambushed calls for a nearby squad to rapidly assist, so the ambush isn't quite made with impunity?
I think one fairly likely solution is to punish an ambush that's too bold.
[edit] Foefaller with the dunk
Rend on
0
Options
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
There's a lot of chatter on the official 2k forums about how it's a design issue that makes the game too easy.
But... isn't this basically the entire point of the concealment mechanic? Letting your soldiers get into optimal position before initiating combat? Is the idea that getting good positions is the intended effect, but your soldiers getting free overwatch shots when concealment is broken is an unintended effect? I wonder how they'll get around one while keeping the other.
They don't have to. This is about taking concealment overwatch shots on the ALIENS turn, not your own. Beagle is letting the aliens blunder into exposed XCOM soldiers so they trigger the scatter and get an overwatch shot on the aliens turn. Then it goes to his turn and he mops them up.
Like if a pod discovers you, they dive for cover and ... OH you mean like they dive for cover, you get overwatch shots, then you get a turn? Wow, yeah alright.
I thought it was like EU/EW where you get overwatch, then the alien turn starts.
1. This is for the first patrol, which ceases to be an advantage after being discovered. I fail to see how this makes the game "too easy."
Because in the earliest parts of the game, where soldiers are most likely to die, are most valuable and gaining ranks/experience is essential, being able to kill 1/3 to 1/4 of the initial opposition on the early game maps is a massive head start. If I told you "You can kill 25% or 33% of all the aliens in the map, pretty much guaranteed, without any threat to you early on" wouldn't you say "Yes sir, I will absolutely do that".
This makes it the defacto best tactical choice and that's a bad thing if you want the game to have depth.
It was, but you couldn't get anywhere near as close to them as you can in XCOM2. XCOM 2 also lets you pick your fight first - XCOM doesn't let you see a bunch of aliens, what they are, where they are and decide how best to engage them before you trigger the pod.
Like if a pod discovers you, they dive for cover and ... OH you mean like they dive for cover, you get overwatch shots, then you get a turn? Wow, yeah alright.
I thought it was like EU/EW where you get overwatch, then the alien turn starts.
Actually in EU/EW you could sometimes get this effect, but only if the alien pod was moving, and it pretty much always happened at max sight range. If you managed to set the trap up however it was the best possible outcome for the turn.
More often than not you ended up activating the aliens on your turn though because that situation is somewhat difficult to engineer and can be extremely time consuming.
1. This is for the first patrol, which ceases to be an advantage after being discovered. I fail to see how this makes the game "too easy."
2. Good luck doing this for dozens of turns on timed missions.
edit: oh, and 3. JAKE SOLOMAN FIX YOUR GAME
1. Because taking out a pod without any chance of it firing back (even if it has something really nasty like a berserker or MEC in the squad) means all your soldiers will always be healthy and unharmed (and probably still have most all their nades/medkit/tools as well) for the next one?
2. Not all missions are timed, and if you do it right, it doesn't take any extra time at all.
Ah, okay that makes more sense now. Right, so if a pod moves into your troops who are all overwatched, they've already expended their turn moving, they get shot at, you get a turn.
Like if your team Gold-moved into a bunch of alien overwatch fire all at once. Just now you can do that with the aliens within a couple tiles, and also flanked.
Yeah I can see this being a thing that they'd want to address, it seems like it might be a bit strong.
AegeriTiny wee bacteriumsPlateau of LengRegistered Userregular
Yeah I was about to add that this also means you can guarantee taking out a group of aliens without needing to use any limited resources like grenades or similar. That's also a huge advantage, because it guarantees you have them for the other groups later on and makes those engagements much easier as well.
Also note you can do this multiple times in a mission later as well. The Ranger gets the ability "Phantom" which means they retain concealment even after the rest of the squad has lost it. So you can actually set up multiple ambushes later on using Phantom Rangers.
Posts
It's already apparent it won't be as big an issue this time around, but still.
After I have wept sufficiently, I'll move to...whatever they're calling Classic this time.
I think you can do both, but this is a really good post.
As a practical example:
a. The actual existing XCOM :EU system where only >50% chance shots increase your aim upon missing.
b. On the reverse, only applying the opposite to aliens when they are shooting at people in cover.
Using an AP system or vats type crits for xcom (with no aliens crits) would work just fine though.
I've dropped 12 hours into this in two days.
...fuck
You might know me as D'Brickashaw on Steam.
(Do it.)
This learning moment came after a reload when the sectopod teleported inside the ship and killed both my snipers. So yeah. I don't know how any of you play this game on Ironman.
I just accept that bullshit bugs are going to sometimes kill my mans.
I can't play without Ironman on because the temptation to just reload after a bad turn or mistake is too high, and then I begin to wonder what the point is to playing the game if my squad is effectively invincible because I'll just reload whenever a bad thing happens.
And I probably could do an Ironman if I lived alone. Most of my reloads happen after I take one more turn after the husband or kids interrupt me with something trivial like pleas for food or reminders that it's 1 AM and I have work in the morning.
I assume you have a plan in place so that on the 4th you can provide them with a fortnight of rations and lock them in a cellar?
Hah. Grandma's house for the kids and a weekend out of town convention for the spouse, my timing is good.
--Mark Twain
XCOM already does this though and its "Normalization" are the abilities of your soldiers. Things like squadsight (Shooting without the chance of being shot at in return), CCS (free shot if an enemy gets within 4 tiles), rapid fire (shoot twice, which is the second level feature of heavies), the sheer reliability of explosives and similar are all doing this. In fact, one of the core differences between early game in XCOM and late game is the number of ways you have of basically ensuring something dies this turn, from shooting more often (Double Tap on snipers, In the Zone etc), to being invisible so you can get closer or specifically engage the aliens you want (Ghost Armor, Battlescanners) the game is already letting you pick the best possible circumstances.
It doesn't need to, in any way, fuck with the RNG for anybody. XCOM2 demonstrates this nicely, where Normal just functions and when someone like NL takes a bunch of dreadful sub 60% shots to hit, they miss consistently. Instead of thinking 44% to hit will hit more than 80% of the time. Northernlion is actually my case model for why the RNG being manipulated on Normal completely makes it impossible for someone to adapt to higher difficulties. He's regularly thinking that a sub 60% shot to hit will hit regularly, because on Normal, it will. So instead of learning how the game actually works, like using flanking and tactics, Normal taught him he can sit somewhere and take pot-shots with a shit chance to hit and win.
Then he tries classic and just gets wrecked repeatedly, because Normal has in no way taught him how to play the game properly. This is all due to the cheating the game does being far too extreme and breaking the core concepts of the tactical gameplay. Many of the posters from the "Normal is fair, but why does classic and above cheat" type rants are in the same boat.
I already had Invisible, Inc. installed and haven't seen the new endgame granted by the Contingency Plan DLC so that's serving as my XCOM 2 warm-up.
This is awesome, but I have to confess I'm not sure what maneuver he's referring to that beagle evidently invented to crush this new game?
Which... Seems like a weird thing to "fix"
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
But... isn't this basically the entire point of the concealment mechanic? Letting your soldiers get into optimal position before initiating combat? Is the idea that getting good positions is the intended effect, but your soldiers getting free overwatch shots when concealment is broken is an unintended effect? I wonder how they'll get around one while keeping the other.
It also goes pretty hard against their admitted goal of getting players to not creep along at a snail's pace, since setting up an ambush Beaglerush style can take a lot of turns if you misjudge their patrol path.
Because it completely breaks the game in that you basically always exterminate the first group of aliens for free every turn, without any significant risk to you. As you can pick your engagements, you can always try to find the most "valuable" looking group - or those closest to the objective - to kill them very fast. Then you can set up in a more ideal spot to basically get the others as they come. It's a big deal to basically guarantee killing 25% of the aliens on the map first turn without them being able to do anything.
Personally, solutions like Itchy Trigger Tentacle or even my preference - aliens with grenades can chuck them at exposed soldiers before moving - would completely negate this being a viable strategy late game. I am kind of okay with it being a thing early on, but the aliens should adjust and be able to counter it (effectively at that) in the mid to late game once they are "Aware" of it. Remember that the stated design intent for concealment was getting a free shot before they could scatter on YOUR turn. This tactic breaks the design intent by giving you a free shot on THEIR turn and then a second entire turn to kill them.
2. Good luck doing this for dozens of turns on timed missions.
edit: oh, and 3. JAKE SOLOMAN FIX YOUR GAME
Maybe the first pod activation death triggers a second pod activation? Improve the 'call for help' mechanic?
Basically, the idea is like this.
The way Fraxis designed concealment was that you spot a pod, set up an ambush, put soldiers on overwatch, then have one shoot at the pod, and everyone's overwatch would trigger when the pod scattered, and then (if everyone's turn was done) enemy turn would start and any survivors would have a chance to shoot back.
The way most of the streamers who got their hands on the preview build have been doing it is the same for the first 3 steps, but instead of shooting and breaking concealment on their turn, they would set the final soldier in the patrol path of the pod, and put them on overwatch. On the enemy turn, they would spot the soldier, scatter, trigger everyone's overwatch, and the alien turn would end without them ever taking a shot, giving the player two whole turns worth of shots to take out a squad without any returning fire from the enemy, and that was what Fraxis has decided was making the game (or at least the first contact part) too easy.
Maybe when you break concealment the squad you ambushed calls for a nearby squad to rapidly assist, so the ambush isn't quite made with impunity?
I think one fairly likely solution is to punish an ambush that's too bold.
[edit] Foefaller with the dunk
They don't have to. This is about taking concealment overwatch shots on the ALIENS turn, not your own. Beagle is letting the aliens blunder into exposed XCOM soldiers so they trigger the scatter and get an overwatch shot on the aliens turn. Then it goes to his turn and he mops them up.
This is the exact opposite design intent.
Like if a pod discovers you, they dive for cover and ... OH you mean like they dive for cover, you get overwatch shots, then you get a turn? Wow, yeah alright.
I thought it was like EU/EW where you get overwatch, then the alien turn starts.
Because in the earliest parts of the game, where soldiers are most likely to die, are most valuable and gaining ranks/experience is essential, being able to kill 1/3 to 1/4 of the initial opposition on the early game maps is a massive head start. If I told you "You can kill 25% or 33% of all the aliens in the map, pretty much guaranteed, without any threat to you early on" wouldn't you say "Yes sir, I will absolutely do that".
This makes it the defacto best tactical choice and that's a bad thing if you want the game to have depth.
It was, but you couldn't get anywhere near as close to them as you can in XCOM2. XCOM 2 also lets you pick your fight first - XCOM doesn't let you see a bunch of aliens, what they are, where they are and decide how best to engage them before you trigger the pod.
Actually in EU/EW you could sometimes get this effect, but only if the alien pod was moving, and it pretty much always happened at max sight range. If you managed to set the trap up however it was the best possible outcome for the turn.
More often than not you ended up activating the aliens on your turn though because that situation is somewhat difficult to engineer and can be extremely time consuming.
1. Because taking out a pod without any chance of it firing back (even if it has something really nasty like a berserker or MEC in the squad) means all your soldiers will always be healthy and unharmed (and probably still have most all their nades/medkit/tools as well) for the next one?
2. Not all missions are timed, and if you do it right, it doesn't take any extra time at all.
Like if your team Gold-moved into a bunch of alien overwatch fire all at once. Just now you can do that with the aliens within a couple tiles, and also flanked.
Yeah I can see this being a thing that they'd want to address, it seems like it might be a bit strong.
Also note you can do this multiple times in a mission later as well. The Ranger gets the ability "Phantom" which means they retain concealment even after the rest of the squad has lost it. So you can actually set up multiple ambushes later on using Phantom Rangers.