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Ferguson

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Posts

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    They also didn't detain his friend walking with him, which you'd think they would do if they were suspects in a robbery.

    The whole story smacks of bullshit.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Lethal force should be the absolute last option for a cop encountering a suspect. Lethal force should be used to counter a deadly threat to the officer or others. Lethal force should not be used on people running AWAY, on people who are UNARMED, on people who have their HANDS UP, or in a situation where a deadly threat to the officer has subsided. Officers should NOT be excited to use their guns while on patrol.

    Note that use of lethal force has nothing to do with what crime the suspect may or may not have recently committed.

    A cop who reaches for his gun before his taser or using his own two feet to chase a suspect is a poorly trained, dangerous cop.

    Inkstain82L Ron HowardHakkekageErin The RedQuidMartini_PhilosopherMrVyngaardArdolTaranisShadowenWraith260ElldrenForarMan in the MistsshrykeRhan9Kristmas Kthulhu
  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    It was about $50 or so, and the lawyer for the two kids has stated that it was them.

    Doesn't change the fact that a police officer ran down and shot an unarmed 18 year-old multiple times and left him to die in the street. All it does is muddy the waters, which was obviously the intention.

  • notdroidnotdroid Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    The alleged robbery may be pertinent to determine what initiated the initial police intervention (asking Brown to step off the street) but is entirely irrelevant if he was killed in the manner reported by witnesses.

    Summary execution is not a suitable punishment for robbery.

    notdroid on
  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    Doesn't help that this is the standard police story for when they shoot unarmed black men.


    Agreed, which takes us back to "Even if this specific killing was justified, they happen far too often and the victims are far too disproportionately black."

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    I've seen one story where the lawyer for Dorian Johnson (the friend with Michael Brown) stated that either Brown or Johnson did take cigarillos from the store, but I can't find much else stating that?

  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular

    And that's exactly why small-town police departments like to take their time releasing information. Because the information that comes out immediately is frequently inaccurate.

    Delmain
  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    notdroid wrote: »
    The alleged robbery may be pertinent to determine what initiated the initial police intervention (asking Brown to step off the street) but is entirely irrelevant if he was killed in the manner reported by witnesses.

    Summary execution is not a suitable punishment for robbery.

    Absolutely agreed.

    But that's a big "if." The reports of eyewitnesses, especially interested eyewitnesses, are completely unreliable. Short of video, the only way to really determine what happened would be the kind of long, slow investigation that a) would never have been undertaken if the police were left to their own devices and not subject to outside scrutiny but b) nobody is willing to wait for because we've all already picked sides and are just yelling "scoreboard!" each time a new piece of information comes out.

    Yall
  • TenekTenek Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    I've seen one story where the lawyer for Dorian Johnson (the friend with Michael Brown) stated that either Brown or Johnson did take cigarillos from the store, but I can't find much else stating that?

    ... his lawyer publicly stated that his client committed a crime he hasn't even been detained for?

    DehumanizedDelmainElvenshaeErin The RedStollsArdolShadowenGnome-InterruptusPolaritieMrVyngaardElldrenMan in the Mists
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Tenek wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    I've seen one story where the lawyer for Dorian Johnson (the friend with Michael Brown) stated that either Brown or Johnson did take cigarillos from the store, but I can't find much else stating that?

    ... his lawyer publicly stated that his client committed a crime he hasn't even been detained for?

    Yeah I'd like to see more sources of this statement, I could only find a half-quote in one story.

    ElvenshaeHakkekageSurfpossum
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Brown's family's lawyers were pretty angry about the statement by police this morning.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    If true the family needs to fire that lawyer, stat

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  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
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  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Tenek wrote: »
    So It Goes wrote: »
    I've seen one story where the lawyer for Dorian Johnson (the friend with Michael Brown) stated that either Brown or Johnson did take cigarillos from the store, but I can't find much else stating that?

    ... his lawyer publicly stated that his client committed a crime he hasn't even been detained for?

    Yeah I'd like to see more sources of this statement, I could only find a half-quote in one story.


    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-police-name-michael-brown

    “We see that there’s tape, that they claim they got a tape that shows there was some sort of strong-armed robbery,” said Freeman Bosley, Johnson’s attorney. “We need to see that tape, my client did tell us and told the FBI that they went into the store. He told FBI that [Brown] did take cigarillos. He told that to the DOJ and the St. Louis County Police.”

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Brown's family has a different lawyer than Dorian Johnson.

    Anyway here's more details:
    In an interview with msnbc shortly after the report was released, Johnson’s lawyer confirmed that Brown had taken cigars from the store.

    “We see that there’s tape, that they claim they got a tape that shows there was some sort of strong-armed robbery,” said Freeman Bosley, Johnson’s attorney. “We need to see that tape, my client did tell us and told the FBI that they went into the store. He told FBI that [Brown] did take cigarillos. He told that to the DOJ and the St. Louis County Police.”

    In an interview earlier this week, Johnson described the events of the shooting but did not mention that he and Brown had been in a convenience store just before, or that Brown had stolen anything.

    http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/ferguson-police-name-michael-brown

  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That legal theory would be 100% ridiculous. It has to happen during the commission of the felony. The cop shot Brown after they were walking down the street later. It's is an incredible stretch if you want to try to say they were still "committing" a felony.

    Elldren
  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »

    Eh, it's a little bit conspiracy theoristy. "There's slight confusion in the official story, so obviously it's all a big coverup!"


    "Why would/did Brown reach into the vehicle to grab a gun as the police allege?"

    Maybe he didn't and the cop made it up to justify losing his temper and committing a murder? Maybe he was trying to win the fight with the cop?

    "Why did the officer fire after Brown was already down and bleeding out?"

    IANAexpert, but I believe police officers are trained to essentially empty their guns once the determination to use deadly force has been made. There's no "shooting to get him down and then stopping."

    "And why did the Ferguson PD not signal that there was a convenience store robbery and that Brown was a suspect before today?"

    Because small-town police departments suck at handling getting information to the public. That's why they like to take their time.

  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    I wonder how the public in Ferguson would respond if Johnson were found guilty of and sentenced to death for the murder of Brown.

  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That legal theory would be 100% ridiculous. It has to happen during the commission of the felony. The cop shot Brown after they were walking down the street later. It's is an incredible stretch if you want to try to say they were still "committing" a felony.

    Uh, isn't $50 way below the limit of felony robbery?

    Or does the use of intimidation bump it up?

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That legal theory would be 100% ridiculous. It has to happen during the commission of the felony. The cop shot Brown after they were walking down the street later. It's is an incredible stretch if you want to try to say they were still "committing" a felony.

    Let me back off on this a little, since Missouri law includes "flight from" the felony:

    Second degree murder, penalty.
    565.021. 1. A person commits the crime of murder in the second degree if he:

    (1) Knowingly causes the death of another person or, with the purpose of causing serious physical injury to another person, causes the death of another person; or

    (2) Commits or attempts to commit any felony, and, in the perpetration or the attempted perpetration of such felony or in the flight from the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony, another person is killed as a result of the perpetration or attempted perpetration of such felony or immediate flight from the perpetration of such felony or attempted perpetration of such felony.


    However, it's still an incredible legal stretch to say Brown or Johnson CAUSED the homicide, i.e. that the homicide was a RESULT OF the perpetration of a felony. Because they didn't cause it. The cop did.

  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That legal theory would be 100% ridiculous. It has to happen during the commission of the felony. The cop shot Brown after they were walking down the street later. It's is an incredible stretch if you want to try to say they were still "committing" a felony.

    Uh, isn't $50 way below the limit of felony robbery?

    Or does the use of intimidation bump it up?
    It's because he pushed the lady. If he hadn't then it would have been a lesser crime.

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  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That legal theory would be 100% ridiculous. It has to happen during the commission of the felony. The cop shot Brown after they were walking down the street later. It's is an incredible stretch if you want to try to say they were still "committing" a felony.

    Uh, isn't $50 way below the limit of felony robbery?

    Or does the use of intimidation bump it up?

    yeah, the use of force to take the cigars could possibly bump it up to felony robbery

  • Inkstain82Inkstain82 Registered User regular
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That's unlikely, to say the least.

    Harry Dresden
  • YallYall Registered User regular
    From that LGF article:

    Why would/did Brown reach into the vehicle to grab a gun as the police allege?
    Why did the officer fire after Brown was already down and bleeding out?


    Is the second point known? I feel like I need to know a lot more about the actual shooting details (or at least have some expert opinions on bullet trajectories, number of shots, etc.) before I can even begin to say that either the officer or the witnesses have credible accounts.

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  • TaramoorTaramoor Registered User regular
    It doesn't matter anymore anyway. The seed of "he deserved it" has been planted, and if the cop is even charged I'll be surprised. He'll never be convicted.

    SyphonBluehippofantHarry DresdenEthan SmithMrVyngaardShadowenBYToady
  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    The autopsy would confirm it.

    Pretty hard to hide shit like that from good forensic techs.

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That's unlikely, to say the least.

    here are the relevant MO statutes

    first degree robbery
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5690000020.HTM (section 3 - dangerous instrument could be your fists/arms)

    second degree murder
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5650000021.HTM (section 2)

    Elvenshae
  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    So It Goes wrote: »
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That legal theory would be 100% ridiculous. It has to happen during the commission of the felony. The cop shot Brown after they were walking down the street later. It's is an incredible stretch if you want to try to say they were still "committing" a felony.

    Uh, isn't $50 way below the limit of felony robbery?

    Or does the use of intimidation bump it up?

    Usually a theft with force becomes a felony. From the video "strongarm robbery" doesn't seem an apt description.

    Robbery in Missouri is defined here: http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/c569.htm

    So It Goes on
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Yeah none of it matters anymore. The entire media has moved on from "unarmed black teen shot to death" to "Michael Brown robbed someone".

    They've successfully covered their asses now.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    If Brown handled the cop's gun and it went off(like in struggle) wouldn't he have gun powder residue on his hands?

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That's unlikely, to say the least.

    here are the relevant MO statutes

    first degree robbery
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5690000020.HTM (section 3 - dangerous instrument could be your fists/arms)

    second degree murder
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5650000021.HTM (section 2)

    I doubt that would hold up as a first degree robbery. Sounds like second degree to me.

  • YallYall Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    If Brown handled the cop's gun and it went off(like in struggle) wouldn't he have gun powder residue on his hands?

    That's not what's being claimed AFAIK, at least not that the gun went off during a struggle.

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  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    If Brown handled the cop's gun and it went off(like in struggle) wouldn't he have gun powder residue on his hands?

    In astruggle over a gun there would likely be gunpowder residue on him yeah

  • DehumanizedDehumanized Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That's unlikely, to say the least.

    here are the relevant MO statutes

    first degree robbery
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5690000020.HTM (section 3 - dangerous instrument could be your fists/arms)

    second degree murder
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5650000021.HTM (section 2)

    I doubt that would hold up as a first degree robbery. Sounds like second degree to me.

    Still a class B felony, which could lead to a second degree murder charge.

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    If Brown handled the cop's gun and it went off(like in struggle) wouldn't he have gun powder residue on his hands?

    He would have to have his hands on or incredibly near the gun when it fired for that to happen.

  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    So, like I said in the SE++ thread.

    This is pretty much going to come down to how Mike Brown was killed. Because his use of force in that video will make it easy enough for the cop to say force was used in their encounter.

  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    Inkstain82 wrote: »
    In Missouri law, if someone dies while a felony is being committed, the suspect can be charged with murder. So it's entirely possible that the Ferguson PD is attempting to lay the groundwork to hold Johnson and Brown liable for Brown's murder.

    That's unlikely, to say the least.

    here are the relevant MO statutes

    first degree robbery
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5690000020.HTM (section 3 - dangerous instrument could be your fists/arms)

    second degree murder
    http://www.moga.mo.gov/statutes/C500-599/5650000021.HTM (section 2)

    I doubt that would hold up as a first degree robbery. Sounds like second degree to me.

    Still a class B felony, which could lead to a second degree murder charge.
    For whom? Brown? By running away he caused his own murder? By Johnson? Who stood there and did nothing?

    The second degree murder charge is the stretchiest of stretches

This discussion has been closed.