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Ferguson

13567112

Posts

  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Replacing Chief Belmar with Captain Johnson was illegal, disgraceful. Nixon denigrated the men and women of the County Police Department and what they've done. I have great respect for Captain Johnson. And I hope I'm wrong but I think Nixon's action put a lot of people in danger.

    So that's the guy who gets to decide whether or not to file charges. He seems... unsympathetic to the community.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • TOGSolidTOGSolid Chief Mixologist of the Shatterdome Tiki Bar Seattle, WashingtonRegistered User regular
    "Oh the billy clubs, those are to spread democracy! Those are democracy sticks!"

  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Replacing Chief Belmar with Captain Johnson was illegal, disgraceful. Nixon denigrated the men and women of the County Police Department and what they've done. I have great respect for Captain Johnson. And I hope I'm wrong but I think Nixon's action put a lot of people in danger.

    So that's the guy who gets to decide whether or not to file charges. He seems... unsympathetic to the community.

    wow what a douche bag

    TOGSolidHakkekageEthan SmithKetBraTaranisElldrenHarry DresdenMsAnthropyjoshofalltradesSyphonBlueShadowenXaquinRegina FongArdolshoeboxjeddyMrVyngaardyossarian_livesJihadJesusGnome-InterruptusshrykeKristmas KthulhufrandelgearslipMoridin889override367SyrdonKipling217VanguardRchanenJusticeforPlutowazillaCogL Ron HowardRhan9Arsenic CanaryCaptainPeacockWraith260Man in the MistsTofystedethMikey CTSAPODionysusSquigieKadoken
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    CNN says the name of the officer who shot Mike Brown will be released tomorrow. Hopefully protective detailed as well, as I would still describe the atmosphere as "charged" to say the least. And then charged and let a jury decide. Feds say it would be very hard for them to do that, as hate crimes are incredibly difficult to prove.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • HakkekageHakkekage Space Whore Academy summa cum laudeRegistered User regular
    CNN says the name of the officer who shot Mike Brown will be released tomorrow. Hopefully protective detailed as well, as I would still describe the atmosphere as "charged" to say the least. And then charged and let a jury decide. Feds say it would be very hard for them to do that, as hate crimes are incredibly difficult to prove.

    I do not see the need to grasp for a hate crime charge except to force a plea by upping the potential sentence. I think a regular ol' crime is a good start to charge him with.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Hakkekage wrote: »
    CNN says the name of the officer who shot Mike Brown will be released tomorrow. Hopefully protective detailed as well, as I would still describe the atmosphere as "charged" to say the least. And then charged and let a jury decide. Feds say it would be very hard for them to do that, as hate crimes are incredibly difficult to prove.

    I do not see the need to grasp for a hate crime charge except to force a plea by upping the potential sentence. I think a regular ol' crime is a good start to charge him with.

    The reason for the hate crimes statute is basically if an asshole local DA refuses to file charges. Which seems like it could be a potential thing that's happening here, so I brought it up.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • TOGSolidTOGSolid Chief Mixologist of the Shatterdome Tiki Bar Seattle, WashingtonRegistered User regular
    "There are so many police out here you'd think they were shooting unarmed black people." God damn, the guy doing this stream from New York has had some great zingers.

  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    This might be the funniest Tweet yet from Ferguson (not that it has a lot of competition):

    spool32ShadowfireHappylilElfShadowenArdolFlying CouchMrVyngaardStollsPolaritieJihadJesusMillGnome-InterruptusshrykeDoodmannMvrckEddyQuidDerrickRchanenTL DRMagellRhan9KwoaruWraith260ForarBlackDragon480Man in the MistscB557Albino Bunny
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    LxX6eco.jpg
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    spool32Eddy
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    They shot an unarmed black man earlier this week. Who totally went for the officer's gun you guys.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    They shot an unarmed black man earlier this week. Who totally went for the officer's gun you guys.

    and is apparently Mr Fantastic's long lost brother because he managed to do it from 35 feet away

    VanguardMsAnthropy
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    They shot an unarmed black man earlier this week. Who totally went for the officer's gun you guys.

    LAPD : Exceeding Expectations

    LxX6eco.jpg
    PSN/Steam/NNID: SyphonBlue | BNet: SyphonBlue#1126
    shrykeL Ron HowardWraith260
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Couple notes on McCulloch:

    1) He's a Democrat
    2) He's running unopposed for his seventh term in November
    3) His father was a cop who was shot and killed in the line of duty

    From this editorial in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Replacing Chief Belmar with Captain Johnson was illegal, disgraceful. Nixon denigrated the men and women of the County Police Department and what they've done. I have great respect for Captain Johnson. And I hope I'm wrong but I think Nixon's action put a lot of people in danger.

    So that's the guy who gets to decide whether or not to file charges. He seems... unsympathetic to the community.

    Couldn't the state AG take it before the grand jury (who, per the 6th and 14th amendments, actually decides whether charges are brought, if memory serves) regardless?

    Polaritie on
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    So It Goes
  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Grand juries usually won't indict if the AD doesn't want to. And usually that's a local issue and the state can't intercede. Certainly the coverage I was reading indicated it was either McCulloch or some kind of federal hate crimes as your only options.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • yossarian_livesyossarian_lives Registered User regular
    Yeesh, Lawrence O'donnell had an eyewitness to the shooting on his show tonight. Based on what she described it's apparent that a trial is in order. The county prosecutor might not feel compelled to bring charges but I'm pretty sure he's got a boss that can override him.

    "I see everything twice!"


  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Yeesh, Lawrence O'donnell had an eyewitness to the shooting on his show tonight. Based on what she described it's apparent that a trial is in order. The county prosecutor might not feel compelled to bring charges but I'm pretty sure he's got a boss that can override him.

    That boss is known as the electorate and he's running unopposed.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
    DehumanizedKristmas KthulhuEddy
  • Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    If you guys didn't see Capt Johnson on CNN tonight, he had a pretty good interview.

  • ButtcleftButtcleft Registered User regular
    Pony wrote: »

    Yeah, cops haven't been this in a very long time.

    And it has everything to do with the fact that, during training, they are indoctrinated to the cult of blue. That its them vs. Us, and that they must have absolute loyalty not to the people but to eachother.
    also thanks for not using me as an example @Pony‌ @ :heart:

    that's it, I'm shutting this entire forum down, everyone thank buttcleft
    SyrdonKonphujunMan in the Mists
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    TOGSolid wrote: »
    And on a nice note, more Captain Johnson being awesome:

    I like that Captain Johnson was put in charge. I like that this actions have resolved some of the problems, and seems indicative of a better future. So, yes. Good decision.

    The issue I have is that yesterday we couldn't go six posts without insinuating, or flat out saying, that most of the problems were racially based, that this is a problem with whites dominating blacks, etc. Which, you know, it was. Or, at least, there was a lot of strong evidence to support that narrative.

    But now that Captain Johnson, who happens to be black, is in charge, that whole theme of racism seems to have fallen out of the reporting. Or, when it appears, it is less prominent than yesterday.

    That seems, to me, to be odd. A black individual is in charge, so no more talking about racism.

    If there was a genuine problem between white police officers and black civilians, that problem needs to be solved. And it is not solved by simply adding some more black police officers.

    I worry that folks might skip over that problem.

    Kinda like the sentiment of "President Obama is black, so racism is fixed!" It distracts from a genuine conversation on issues of race by clinging to symbolic gestures rather than actual progress.

    It would be cool if race were not a factor, in the end.

    DaenrisL Ron Howard
  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Putting Ron Johnson in charge has been a masterful PR stroke by Nixon. He has completely changed the current narrative, and the media's fucking hungry for the feel-good conclusion to the story. Because honestly, nobody* in the United States wants to talk about racism, not after Trayvon Martin, and Donald Sperling, and the Civil Rights Act, and heavens know what else I've missed because I wasn't paying attention because I'm not an African-American.

    I mean honestly, even before Ron Johnson hit the scene, there were already racism apologists. And we saw how some news ops portrayed the situation; to some extent, a number of them framed it as, "Oh, yet another protest turned violent." Some of the news ops, to give them credit, have done incredible diligence in following this story, but they're largely the traditional paper-based sort or the newfangled social media sort. The "mainstream" news has been looking for an out on this story, and stories like this, for a long time now, so they can get back to talking about Robin Williams and Hilary Clinton and Rand Paul. Somehow shit that isn't happening for 2 years (2016 elections) and random events that happened months ago (MH 370) are "news", but things that are happening and continue to happen aren't (institutional racism in America, violent overreach of police forces, etc,) because they're not "events". They're complex issues with deep histories that take people hours and days and weeks of investigating, reading, and reflecting to understand, and ain't nobody got time for that!

    * Hyperbole

    hippofant on
  • LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Well, the issue is still about cops and black men. Probably more broadly, authoritative establishments and black men. And then to put it into a phrase, institutional racism. I think it's good to move the conversation away from single people who are racist and towards a system that has been designed to be racist.

    And I think having a black man in a leader position is a good thing for the racism conversation. On the surface, people might want to claim we are post-racial (like your Obama example), but now we can shift the discussion away from crazy individuals who are racist and finally start talking about an entire system that has been designed to be racist (legal system, jobs, school, etc.). Meaning, we can finally start talking about cystic institutional racism.


    edit: hippofant's post above seems a bit more cynical than mine, but I can't disagree, so maybe also more realistic.

    Lilnoobs on
    Geth
  • Just_Bri_ThanksJust_Bri_Thanks Seething with rage from a handbasket.Registered User, ClubPA regular
    edited August 2014
    _J_ wrote: »
    TOGSolid wrote: »
    And on a nice note, more Captain Johnson being awesome:

    I like that Captain Johnson was put in charge. I like that this actions have resolved some of the problems, and seems indicative of a better future. So, yes. Good decision.

    The issue I have is that yesterday we couldn't go six posts without insinuating, or flat out saying, that most of the problems were racially based, that this is a problem with whites dominating blacks, etc. Which, you know, it was. Or, at least, there was a lot of strong evidence to support that narrative.

    But now that Captain Johnson, who happens to be black, is in charge, that whole theme of racism seems to have fallen out of the reporting. Or, when it appears, it is less prominent than yesterday.

    That seems, to me, to be odd. A black individual is in charge, so no more talking about racism.

    If there was a genuine problem between white police officers and black civilians, that problem needs to be solved. And it is not solved by simply adding some more black police officers.

    I worry that folks might skip over that problem.

    Kinda like the sentiment of "President Obama is black, so racism is fixed!" It distracts from a genuine conversation on issues of race by clinging to symbolic gestures rather than actual progress.

    It would be cool if race were not a factor, in the end.

    I think it has more to do with the fact that even if the state police are also racist there have been no overt racist actions to report on, and since it has only been a day people have had to start over on data collection so nothing much has come out yet.

    The fact that the state police are not up armored and are keeping their hands off their weapons solves MUCH of the public perception about a racist response to a public protest.

    Are there racists in the state police? Probably. Are they being kept in check by their leadership? Apparently.

    Just_Bri_Thanks on
    Some days I just want to smack people with a rolled up newspaper. Or a phone book.
    A folding chair is looking like an attractive option right now too...
    Gnome-InterruptusMarathonQuidRchanenDarkPrimusShadowenshryke
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    is kettling now an unacceptable response to large protests, because that definitely wasn't the tenor in yesterday's brief spiel of remarks on riot policing in [chat]

    aRkpc.gif
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    To be clear: Solving the immediate problem is obviously terrific. I am glad Captain Johnson's presence seems to have improved the situation.

    The bigger problem of "We're having racial problems. Send in some authority-blacks!" is maybe making some other, deeper, problems worse.

    If that's what it takes to address the immediate harm? Sure, go for it.

    It would simply be nice if we could have an authority-latino or an authority-white or authority-jew* accomplish the same thing.

    Yoinking "Us vs. Them" out of the human psyche is a dilly of a pickle.


    *This is mostly joking, and included because I am amused by the idea of some governor yelling, "Quick! Dispatch our authority-jew!"

  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    ronya wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    is kettling now an unacceptable response to large protests, because that definitely wasn't the tenor in yesterday's brief spiel of remarks on riot policing in [chat]

    I think kettling is completely unacceptable, since it's clearly detention without probable cause (or at least, the manner in which it usually is effected it is, since the police usually don't end up arresting everybody and charging them), but somehow the fucking European Court of Human Rights ruled it legal, and it's pretty hard to go, "Well, even though the Europeans think their police should be allowed to do it, ours shouldn't!" (Though the British courts eventually ruled its usage acceptable only as a last resort, and considered the London police's usage of it in 2009 illegal, and there's been some back-and-forth of its legality before the courts. Dunno of any such cases in NA though.)

    hippofant on
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Johnson being sent in isn't the only change. The police under his command are behaving in a completely different way, more akin to, well, actual police that are people you would want to show up if trouble occurs, and not dudes auditioning for the Dredd sequel I want but apparently can't have.

    How would Johnson be making deeper problems worse? Are all the other police officers under his command black as well? If not, then people are seeing white officers behave reasonably as well as black, which is surely a help and not a hindrance.

    MsAnthropyKadoken
  • _J__J_ Pedant Registered User, __BANNED USERS regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Johnson being sent in isn't the only change. The police under his command are behaving in a completely different way, more akin to, well, actual police that are people you would want to show up if trouble occurs, and not dudes auditioning for the Dredd sequel I want but apparently can't have.

    How would Johnson be making deeper problems worse? Are all the other police officers under his command black as well? If not, then people are seeing white officers behave reasonably as well as black, which is surely a help and not a hindrance.

    If Johnson was sent in because they needed a reasonable person in charge, then my worries are abated.
    If Johnson was sent in because they needed a black person in charge, then I am worried, because that seems like a problematic basis for decision making.

    Then there's the other side: How Johnson is interpreted and explained by the media.

    Ideally, no one cares about anyone's skin color, and we just select sane people to do sane things.

    But we hardly ever do the ideal thing.

  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    ronya wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    Gosling wrote: »
    Ummmm... guys? You may want to look at what's going on in the sympathetic protest in New York.

    Basically, the protestors have been collared by the NYPD, let out a few at a time, and then being arrested.
    Great I see we've learned absolutely nothing from this

    Now all we need is the LAPD to gun down some motorists because they were driving a car that looked vaguely like Michael Brown's car (ie, a car)

    is kettling now an unacceptable response to large protests, because that definitely wasn't the tenor in yesterday's brief spiel of remarks on riot policing in [chat]

    I think kettling is completely unacceptable, since it's clearly detention without probable cause (or at least, the manner in which it usually is effected it is, since the police usually don't end up arresting everybody and charging them), but somehow the fucking European Court of Human Rights ruled it legal, and it's pretty hard to go, "Well, even though the Europeans think their police should be allowed to do it, ours shouldn't!" (Though the British courts eventually ruled its usage acceptable only as a last resort, and considered the London police's usage of it in 2009 illegal, and there's been some back-and-forth of its legality before the courts. Dunno of any such cases in NA though.)

    the line of argument from the UK Court of Appeal, the House of Lords, and the ECHR is bluntly that the duty of police to preserve public order trumps the right of peaceful protesters to avoid being confused with non-peaceful protesters, if there is no reasonable way for the police - again, not the protester, but the police - to make that distinction during the protest itself
    Moreover, even by 2001, advances in communications technology had made it possible to mobilise protesters rapidly and covertly on a hitherto unknown scale. Police forces in the Contracting States face new challenges, perhaps unforeseen when the Convention was drafted, and have developed new policing techniques to deal with them, including containment or “kettling”. Article 5 cannot be interpreted in such a way as to make it impracticable for the police to fulfil their duties of maintaining order and protecting the public, provided that they comply with the underlying principle of Article 5, which is to protect the individual from arbitrariness (see Saadi v. the United Kingdom [GC], no. 13229/03, §§ 67‑74, ECHR 2008)....

    that is (glibly speaking), the duty is not on the police to find some way to pick out only the naughty protesters and only arrest those, rather the duty is on someone else to illustrate that there is such a reasonable way, in the absence of which the police can get right ahead

    this seems fairly normal for establishment liberal-democratic jurisprudence, although I have observed that there is a sphere of activists who appear to have no knowledge that this is the status quo and find it both baffling and outrageous when they learn of it (in a manner faintly reminiscent of the xkcd comic starring the $5 wrench).

    aRkpc.gif
    Elvenshae
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    They needed someone reasonable. Being black didn't hurt either. Why does it have to be a binary choice?

    And, well, yes, ideally race doesn't matter. But that isn't the case at all in a society where institutionalised racism is a thing and also militarisation of law enforcement agencies is a thing and unofficial ghettoisation and residential segregation is a thing and so forth.

    Johnson isn't making anything worse at all. How he's interpreted by the media seems far less of a problem than police officers stomping around in jackboots carrying military hardware arresting reporters.

  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    There is also the issue that if symbolic gestures are untenable like the right wing reaction to Obama then it is extremely difficult to address the actual issues.

    steam_sig.png
    MWO: Adamski
  • ronyaronya Arrrrrf. the ivory tower's basementRegistered User regular
    there seems to be a great deal of civic mythology about the state police or national guard interceding in such disputes, which I think trumps Cpt Johnson being technically a black American from north St. Louis County. but perhaps that is just me

    aRkpc.gif
  • QuidQuid I don't... what... hnnng Registered User regular
    _J_ wrote: »
    To be clear: Solving the immediate problem is obviously terrific. I am glad Captain Johnson's presence seems to have improved the situation.

    The bigger problem of "We're having racial problems. Send in some authority-blacks!" is maybe making some other, deeper, problems worse.

    If that's what it takes to address the immediate harm? Sure, go for it.

    It would simply be nice if we could have an authority-latino or an authority-white or authority-jew* accomplish the same thing.

    Yoinking "Us vs. Them" out of the human psyche is a dilly of a pickle.


    *This is mostly joking, and included because I am amused by the idea of some governor yelling, "Quick! Dispatch our authority-jew!"

    Just to be clear then, you're questioning his appointment based on his race. You're not saying that's what happened. You're just... concerned.

    enlightenedbum
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    I get what J is saying.

    Was the awesome Captain Johnson chosen because he was known to be an awesome dude who has his head in the right place or was he picked because you got a bunch of blacks rioting they need some black guy to make them feel comfortable.

    Was it purely a political PR stunt or was it "this situation is fucked we need the best guy for the job"

    Trace on
    Nitsua
  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    Again, why is it a binary choice between those things?

    VanguardOneAngryPossumQuidShadowenCentipede DamascusWraith260
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Bogart wrote: »
    Again, why is it a binary choice between those things?

    How many days did the Governor let this go again?

    Let's just say I'm not confident that Nixon himself isn't a racist bag of shit who only started to care about Ferguson after people started getting pissed at him for not doing a fucking thing in the first place.

  • BogartBogart Streetwise Hercules Fighting The Rising Odds Registered User, Moderator mod
    That doesn't make it one or the other, though. Maybe Nixon is a racist who wanted a PR stunt. He's also probably not an idiot, and understands that he also needed to knock the situation down a notch of tension or ten, so he needed someone competent. So what he really needs is a competent black police officer to restore order.

    So the answer is, 'both, probably, but definitely the second one'.

    Centipede DamascusWraith260
  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    edited August 2014
    Bogart wrote: »
    That doesn't make it one or the other, though. Maybe Nixon is a racist who wanted a PR stunt. He's also probably not an idiot, and understands that he also needed to knock the situation down a notch of tension or ten, so he needed someone competent. So what he really needs is a competent black police officer to restore order.

    So the answer is, 'both, probably, but definitely the second one'.

    Honestly I just want to know what Nixon saw when he saw Captain Johnson for the first time.

    Did he see a respected well oriented and mentally sound officer of the law, or did he see a black guy with all the right traits?

    Trace on
This discussion has been closed.