My favorite solution to non-combat skills is simply siloing them away from combat skills, so they don't draw from the same pool of resouces. Your healer gets better at healing and at killing fools with a hammer and those aren't competing priorities. I think this is perfectly fair and viable.
It's worth remembering that Original Original Original D&D didn't have a rogue class because the idea of a dude who would be useless in a fight seemed silly to the designers (wizards, by contrast, are weak, but they are far from useless). And indeed, there are still hardcore old-school players who don't include the Thief because it is like a fantasy version of the Decker Problem from Shadowrun: you have a guy perfectly adapted to deal with all these non-combat challenges that you're likely to encounter (much more so than the fighty guy) but has to sit on his hands and whistle during the fights. That often ends up being boring for the party in the first instance and for the player in the second.
oh my god old d&d is so bad
well, you know, my point in this instance was that it was smarter than people give it credit for
because they were designing around a certain playstyle (go out and kill stuff, this is basically a wargame after all) and excluding options that didn't make sense in that context
which is actually a rudiment of good design. you might not be a fan of "go out and kill stuff" but the point is that if one's game is going to involve that then it is probably best to let players be good at the going out and the killing things and not trap them with choices that they will only learn are bad when it is too late to do anything about it.
oh, no i'm not knocking the concept (c'mon kosh you know that i love Torchbearer, which is like old D&D with better rules)
but AD&D (which I understand is different than OD&D) is so, so convoluted. I don't think anyone actually played that game by the book. I've skimmed OD&D and it seems like a much cleaner document, definitely well suited, within its time, to accomplish its goals.
OD&D is by today's standards completely ridiculous. The Rules Cyclopedia was pretty much the final evolution of that game and is still good though.
In some printings of OD&D (it's history is complicated) the entirety of the combat rules is "See: Chainmail" (which was a separate tabletop wargame)
Attacked by tweeeeeeees!
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No-QuarterNothing To FearBut Fear ItselfRegistered Userregular
JEEZ LOUISE. I rented Evil Within and you can only sprint for three seconds. If your stamina runs out, detective dude puts his hands on his knees and huffs and puffs while the cleaver wielding monsters catch up to him. There is a pricey upgrade you can buy that lets you sprint for four seconds.
That aside is at any good? Everyone's been hyping that one up, but it just looks like another generic 2rd person horror game. Not that that's a problem, it just doesn't seem very revolutionary.
I'm two hours in. It's a generic horror game with a really good, tense opening. I do like playing with the traps, though.
Cool. If it has a solid story then that's fine.
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Element BrianPeanut Butter ShillRegistered Userregular
I'd like a traditional procedural permadeath roguelike, but with Dark Souls-style combat.
But why.
Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Further along your point @Jacobkosh I am so glad that we seem to have graduated from the period where every TRPG is trying to compete with D&D and be this all purpose game. So many of the sacred cows from the older era of game design have been slain and people who roleplay have not only more options, but better options than ever before.
DayZ is literally the first game ever where item maintenance felt right and actually enhanced my experience.
Cleaning my gun after an especially brutal firefight had a sort of serenity to it, and seeing it's condition improve made me happy because it was a gun I had heavily customized and had grown attached to.
And finding a sewing kit was a kinda quiet bright spot, it meant I could mend the ugly tear that zed put in my jacket a while back. Which was nice, I like this jacket. Is good jacket. Warm.
I thought ME1's system for guns was good. Limited ammo leads to hoarding (as noted by Couscous) but having reload / cooldown times allows for interesting ways to differentiate weapons.
JEEZ LOUISE. I rented Evil Within and you can only sprint for three seconds. If your stamina runs out, detective dude puts his hands on his knees and huffs and puffs while the cleaver wielding monsters catch up to him. There is a pricey upgrade you can buy that lets you sprint for four seconds.
Is it like Zelda where you should sprint for like 1 second and then run and then sprint and then run and then sprint
you know what i'm talking about
with the carrots
Yeah, it's like that. Except your horse didn't stop to take a breather when she ran out of carrots.
I'd like a traditional procedural permadeath roguelike, but with Dark Souls-style combat.
But why.
I enjoy difficult permadeath games. It's gratifying to learn from your mistakes and make a better run later.
In part, I think, Dark Souls is fun because the world is so big and deadly that it feels pretty similar to old roguelikes until you've learned the game.
kedinik on
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
my last skyrim playthrough I used the mod that basically adds the dark souls death system
I feel it adds quite a bit
like all my dicks if the next bethesda game steals dark souls' death system (even if they do away with respawning NPCs) and third person combat with lock on/actual some depth to combat
like I don't particularly care for some of the features of dark souls that feel designed to artificially lengthen the game or just toss a trollface at the player, but anything to do away with the quicksave/quickload lollercaust would be nice
the Dark Souls death system in an Elder Scrolls game would be horrible
Elder Scrolls games are buggy. That's just going to be a thing. And if I had to put up with death penalties because a wolf was clipping through the floor and killed me when I couldn't even see it (let alone hit it) I'd throw my controller through a window
I've not had this happen much in skyrim, even with a billion trillion mods
although the humanity system and max hp loss can suck a dick
Bioware discovered what poultices actually were sometime between Awakening and DA2 so DA2 has actual health potions instead of poultices that you drink.
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I'd like a traditional procedural permadeath roguelike, but with Dark Souls-style combat.
But why.
I enjoy difficult permadeath games. It's gratifying to learn from your mistakes and make a better run later.
In part, I think, Dark Souls is fun because the world is so big and deadly that it feels pretty similar to old roguelikes until you've learned the game.
I guess I should have asked "what do you mean by dark souls combat"
because...I don't think the combat is very good or interesting? It's a very simple system and the strategy to beat almost every enemy is "Wait for them to do attack that leaves them vulnerable. Counter with defensive option you built for (block, dodge, parry). Get a limited window to attack. Repeat." and the only time it really gets at all interesting is when it throws multiple difficult enemies at you (e.g: Ruin Sentinels*). Even then, you are just waiting for the 'vulnerable periods' to overlap so that you don't get smacked while punishing one dude.
And then the stuff that dark souls does well - atmosphere, dickish level design, etc. would be really really hard to replicate if procedurally generated.
I'm a bit down on games where you spec heavily into weapon types, it always sucks when you get an item that is potentially good but you can't use effectively.
I'd like a traditional procedural permadeath roguelike, but with Dark Souls-style combat.
But why.
I enjoy difficult permadeath games. It's gratifying to learn from your mistakes and make a better run later.
In part, I think, Dark Souls is fun because the world is so big and deadly that it feels pretty similar to old roguelikes until you've learned the game.
I cant find the mod I use for skyrim right now, but basically you die and are dumped at the last shrine you bound your soul to, you're naked and have to recover your gear. It made having spare gear handy in my house (which had a shrine) useful
granted I play skyrim with infinite carry weight because fuck the alternative
games with permadeath or even death penalties have to pass a really high bar in terms of how good their controls are and how stable the game is in order to not suck
people often say of Dark Souls it is "hard but fair". That "but fair" part is neither easy nor cheap.
Unless a developer is willing to invest enough time and effort into polishing their game just give us a fucking save system and stop guilting players for using it. Then the occasional game glitch becomes an annoyance instead of a complete game killer.
I guess I should have asked "what do you mean by dark souls combat"
because...I don't think the combat is very good or interesting? It's a very simple system and the strategy to beat almost every enemy is "Wait for them to do attack that leaves them vulnerable. Counter with defensive option you built for (block, dodge, parry). Get a limited window to attack. Repeat." and the only time it really gets at all interesting is when it throws multiple difficult enemies at you (e.g: Ruin Sentinels*). Even then, you are just waiting for the 'vulnerable periods' to overlap so that you don't get smacked while punishing one dude.
And then the stuff that dark souls does well - atmosphere, dickish level design, etc. would be really really hard to replicate if procedurally generated.
*assuming you don't co-op and turn it into 2 1v1s
Ah, I see.
I just don't care about combat much, and something more like Dark Souls would at least be more interesting than comparing numbers and rolling dice like in traditional roguelikes.
I made a game! Hotline Maui. Requires mouse and keyboard.
A roguelike action game would definitely be interesting but could very easily be a shitshow
*glares at Abyss Odyssey*
Only some kind of mad genius would attempt to make such a game :bz :rotate: :bz :bz
P10 on
Shameful pursuits and utterly stupid opinions
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
Ammo scarcity ensures I will never use the superweapon with like five shots total except during boss fights.
let me tell you about health potions
Games should either make rationing a central mechanic, if that's the sort of experience they're going for (e.g. survival horror), or should make it abundantly clear that you don't need to sweat that stuff. Some games appear to have realized that and opted for the latter, which gives me joy, as the sort of person who hordes potions but doesn't enjoy doing it.
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simonwolfi can feel a differencetoday, a differenceRegistered Userregular
I guess I should have asked "what do you mean by dark souls combat"
because...I don't think the combat is very good or interesting? It's a very simple system and the strategy to beat almost every enemy is "Wait for them to do attack that leaves them vulnerable. Counter with defensive option you built for (block, dodge, parry). Get a limited window to attack. Repeat." and the only time it really gets at all interesting is when it throws multiple difficult enemies at you (e.g: Ruin Sentinels*). Even then, you are just waiting for the 'vulnerable periods' to overlap so that you don't get smacked while punishing one dude.
And then the stuff that dark souls does well - atmosphere, dickish level design, etc. would be really really hard to replicate if procedurally generated.
*assuming you don't co-op and turn it into 2 1v1s
pretty much all action game combat is "wait for opponent to attack, use defense option, attack when they are vulnerable."
the challenge is in successfully defending against attacks (which is execution and reaction) and identifying when they're vulnerable (which is pattern recognition), and sometimes weighing risk/reward in terms of committing to attacks.
like any other action game, the complications are multiple enemies, difficult or changing behaviour patterns, higher execution/reaction challenges due to faster attacks or narrower defense windows, etc.
dark souls does it perfectly well
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
Dark Souls is basically a video game version of shaving.
I definitely do not understand the appeal. I've watched some people stream it, and it just looks... uggo and boring. "But it's super hard!" doesn't help sell me on it.
I like it when games make dying and making mistakes part of the game instead of something you just reload over.
Fable 2, Dark Souls and Shadow of Mordor all do this well.
dark souls is the game where i find dying least stressful, really
the game is built to accommodate failure states as a component of gameplay. that's really important, both for a sense of immersion (to me at least) and to support a mastery-based, fight-this-encounter-until-you-can-beat-it style of gameplay without being frustrating
1 out of 100 deaths not being my fault in a game where dying really hurts is enough to cause major problems for me, especially if dying is supposed to be common.
Couscous on
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21stCenturyCall me Pixel, or Pix for short![They/Them]Registered Userregular
wow, this creepypasta is so bad it's actually funny...
I definitely do not understand the appeal. I've watched some people stream it, and it just looks... uggo and boring. "But it's super hard!" doesn't help sell me on it.
It is uggo and boring. You're in the land of the dead so everything is dead and withered and crumbling.
There's a lot of weapon and enemy variety.
Enemies are placed with care around the levels.
There's high difficulty and a high sense of achievement when you beat a boss.
Posts
OD&D is by today's standards completely ridiculous. The Rules Cyclopedia was pretty much the final evolution of that game and is still good though.
In some printings of OD&D (it's history is complicated) the entirety of the combat rules is "See: Chainmail" (which was a separate tabletop wargame)
Cool. If it has a solid story then that's fine.
what about lead pipe scarcity where it was only good after one zombie in dead island
that was some bullllllllllllllllllllllshit
Arch,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
Cleaning my gun after an especially brutal firefight had a sort of serenity to it, and seeing it's condition improve made me happy because it was a gun I had heavily customized and had grown attached to.
And finding a sewing kit was a kinda quiet bright spot, it meant I could mend the ugly tear that zed put in my jacket a while back. Which was nice, I like this jacket. Is good jacket. Warm.
Yeah, it's like that. Except your horse didn't stop to take a breather when she ran out of carrots.
let me tell you about health potions
I enjoy difficult permadeath games. It's gratifying to learn from your mistakes and make a better run later.
In part, I think, Dark Souls is fun because the world is so big and deadly that it feels pretty similar to old roguelikes until you've learned the game.
I've not had this happen much in skyrim, even with a billion trillion mods
although the humanity system and max hp loss can suck a dick
What's weird about that?
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
Permadeath scares me. I've never tried it.
because it would be super fun!
because...I don't think the combat is very good or interesting? It's a very simple system and the strategy to beat almost every enemy is "Wait for them to do attack that leaves them vulnerable. Counter with defensive option you built for (block, dodge, parry). Get a limited window to attack. Repeat." and the only time it really gets at all interesting is when it throws multiple difficult enemies at you (e.g: Ruin Sentinels*). Even then, you are just waiting for the 'vulnerable periods' to overlap so that you don't get smacked while punishing one dude.
And then the stuff that dark souls does well - atmosphere, dickish level design, etc. would be really really hard to replicate if procedurally generated.
*assuming you don't co-op and turn it into 2 1v1s
Fable 2, Dark Souls and Shadow of Mordor all do this well.
I'm a bit down on games where you spec heavily into weapon types, it always sucks when you get an item that is potentially good but you can't use effectively.
Part of it, too, is that you tell a unique story each time. Often with your luckless hero dying young, but
granted I play skyrim with infinite carry weight because fuck the alternative
but this mod looks neat as well
people often say of Dark Souls it is "hard but fair". That "but fair" part is neither easy nor cheap.
Unless a developer is willing to invest enough time and effort into polishing their game just give us a fucking save system and stop guilting players for using it. Then the occasional game glitch becomes an annoyance instead of a complete game killer.
Ah, I see.
I just don't care about combat much, and something more like Dark Souls would at least be more interesting than comparing numbers and rolling dice like in traditional roguelikes.
I mean you can't be invaded by hackers in skyrim
in fact fairness doesn't really overlap dark souls' venn diagram
*glares at Abyss Odyssey*
Only some kind of mad genius would attempt to make such a game :bz :rotate: :bz :bz
Games should either make rationing a central mechanic, if that's the sort of experience they're going for (e.g. survival horror), or should make it abundantly clear that you don't need to sweat that stuff. Some games appear to have realized that and opted for the latter, which gives me joy, as the sort of person who hordes potions but doesn't enjoy doing it.
pretty much all action game combat is "wait for opponent to attack, use defense option, attack when they are vulnerable."
the challenge is in successfully defending against attacks (which is execution and reaction) and identifying when they're vulnerable (which is pattern recognition), and sometimes weighing risk/reward in terms of committing to attacks.
like any other action game, the complications are multiple enemies, difficult or changing behaviour patterns, higher execution/reaction challenges due to faster attacks or narrower defense windows, etc.
dark souls does it perfectly well
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
Define "fair"? I define it as meaning "99 of 100 deaths are your own fault".
I hear the new one on ps4 is difficult though
I definitely do not understand the appeal. I've watched some people stream it, and it just looks... uggo and boring. "But it's super hard!" doesn't help sell me on it.
dark souls is the game where i find dying least stressful, really
the game is built to accommodate failure states as a component of gameplay. that's really important, both for a sense of immersion (to me at least) and to support a mastery-based, fight-this-encounter-until-you-can-beat-it style of gameplay without being frustrating
Horde a bunch of good shit: Boss fight has unlimited ammo @_@
Except not really funny, just dumb.
Check out my site, the Bismuth Heart | My Twitter
It is uggo and boring. You're in the land of the dead so everything is dead and withered and crumbling.
There's a lot of weapon and enemy variety.
Enemies are placed with care around the levels.
There's high difficulty and a high sense of achievement when you beat a boss.