Did the pm scene lose a lot of size to smash 4? I never followed it too closely, I don't know that it did
Once Nintendo started to take an active interest in promoting Smash 4 by being an official sponsor of some high-profile tournaments (and I mean community-driven ones, not official Nintendo ones), Project M didn't have a lot of room to breathe. Whether or not it was because Nintendo representatives sat on the tournament organizers, it stopped showing up at large-scale tournaments.
Unrelated, I feel that this quote from one of the P:M devs is relevant and illuminating:
We weren't contacted by anyone to prompt this. We weren't issued a C&D, threatened with one or a lawsuit or had legal action taken against us in any way, but we want it to stay that way. Taking down the full site was of course part of this
I'm not part of the conspiracy set that's been all "we can't take the devs at their word, obviously Nintendo drowned them in lawyers so fuck them I'm pirating all their games forever", so I take this to mean exactly what it says. These guys poured a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into something that was in a legal gray area at best and developed a lot of useful game-development skills in the process, but so long as they were actively supporting it anything of their own they tried to produce would also be at risk.
EDIT: Which, after reading further on, now strikes me as a mildly naive view. But I'm still not one to say "A-haaaa, it's actually exactly the opposite!" without further proof.
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It's extremely weird that they would say they're done with development on the mod, but also take down the whole site along with downloads to 3.6. Especially since they had apparently been showing off costumes for a future build back in October, so something happened. What exactly is unknown; it could simply a large number of the dev team saying "You know what? This is a lot of work for nothing. We're out." and a failure to replace them led to just axing future development.
But really, the total removal of the site makes me think Nintendo had a hand in this. It's not a "fuck them I'm pirating it all!" but more "Wow, this is a poor decision that does nothing but net bad PR for them."
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CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
edited December 2015
In non-PM news, it's time to spin up the old rumor mill:
Did the pm scene lose a lot of size to smash 4? I never followed it too closely, I don't know that it did
Once Nintendo started to take an active interest in promoting Smash 4 by being an official sponsor of some high-profile tournaments (and I mean community-driven ones, not official Nintendo ones), Project M didn't have a lot of room to breathe. Whether or not it was because Nintendo representatives sat on the tournament organizers, it stopped showing up at large-scale tournaments.
Unrelated, I feel that this quote from one of the P:M devs is relevant and illuminating:
We weren't contacted by anyone to prompt this. We weren't issued a C&D, threatened with one or a lawsuit or had legal action taken against us in any way, but we want it to stay that way. Taking down the full site was of course part of this
I'm not part of the conspiracy set that's been all "we can't take the devs at their word, obviously Nintendo drowned them in lawyers so fuck them I'm pirating all their games forever", so I take this to mean exactly what it says. These guys poured a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into something that was in a legal gray area at best and developed a lot of useful game-development skills in the process, but so long as they were actively supporting it anything of their own they tried to produce would also be at risk.
EDIT: Which, after reading further on, now strikes me as a mildly naive view. But I'm still not one to say "A-haaaa, it's actually exactly the opposite!" without further proof.
I don't feel like its as gray an area as people think. Nintendo tried to sue galoob for the Game Genie back in the NES days for copyright infringement, claiming it created derivative works or something. And while PM is pretty well derivative of brawl, its still only a temporary change that is undone as soon as power is cut, and with it requiring a physical copy of the game, still doesn't really support a piracy model at all.
But I'd still be able to understand if they wanted to make something unique and possibly be able to monetize it. But in the same vein, im curious how well a smash game without smash characters would actually do. So far we only really have rivals of Aether to look at for that, but I cant say I've heard of a lot of RoAE tournaments happening or drawing the hype.
From what I've been able to put together it seems like the reason may have been that they saw some similar project get taken apart and the devs hit with ruinous damages and decided they couldn't shoulder the risk, and they may have received some credible inside heads up that legal action was becoming imminent. Seems that they are trying to get people to not continue their work re:evolution project.
But, even though I understand that they're trying to keep a low profile, a request from them to not use their code to make a derivative work is maybe the most hilarious thing ever
In one of their tweets they said they were working on something else. Either the project M people are making their own smash-like game, or they will be working with nintendo on smash4. Or maybe something weird like sony or microsoft trying to get in on the genre.
In one of their tweets they said they were working on something else. Either the project M people are making their own smash-like game, or they will be working with nintendo on smash4. Or maybe something weird like sony or microsoft trying to get in on the genre.
The idea of the Project M team making their own Smash-like does really seem like the most reasonable assumption to make, and it would make total sense from their point of view to take down Project M: not only would it sort of jeopardize their attempts to sell their own fighting game if they came to legal blows with Nintendo somehow, but it's a competitor to their own game if they try to sell it :P.
I think it's actually super reasonable for them to all of a sudden go "You know what...we could be getting paid for this."
Moreover, if they want their project to be taken as a serious tournament-competitive game, standing in Nintendo's shadow does them no favors. Better to make it into its own thing.
I could very easily see them deciding they're going to "Dota 2" this.
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CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
Yeah, I'm definitely down for more good Smash-likes in the field. Hell, I'm down for a second PSABR. I'm excited about Rivals of Aether, but kind of waiting for it to get out of it's Early Access/Beta phase.
Fighting games didn't just stop at Street Fighter II, no reason this genre should just stop at Smash Bros. In fact, a standalone Smash-like by the Project M team has me way more interested than a mod of Brawl.
I've been considering doing some prototyping of a smashlike in Unreal Engine 4 myself, actually. It's just daunting because fighting games are deceptively content-heavy, and content is the most expensive component of game development on average.
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CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
Deceptively content heavy is right. It's why making a new character takes 6 months to a year with a pretty sizeable budget.
There have been indie Smash clones before and nobody has ever cared about them. Smash isn't Smash without Nintendo characters.
That's not necessarily true. There are other cool characters. Like, the Playstation one totally had potential! Half their roster was just really stupid, and the mechanics were also kind of bad. But I wouldn't say that it's not theoretically impossible w/o Nintendo characters.
The gameplays got to be good AND you need the right characters. I'm long for a throwdown between Meatboy and Lilac against Papyrus and *Hyun-Ae
I'd say that sounded unfair, since Papyrus would never kill anybody, but then you team him with *Hyun-Ae, and that kind of balances out the murder equation.
There have been indie Smash clones before and nobody has ever cared about them. Smash isn't Smash without Nintendo characters.
That's not necessarily true. There are other cool characters. Like, the Playstation one totally had potential! Half their roster was just really stupid, and the mechanics were also kind of bad. But I wouldn't say that it's not theoretically impossible w/o Nintendo characters.
I mean yeah, there are a few other developers/franchises that have similarly beloved characters. But creating a fighting game community from scratch with original characters is a really tall order when your competition is Smash.
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CokomonOur butts are worth fighting for!Registered Userregular
Just for fun, I thought I'd talk about what I would want to see if Isaac from Golden Sun got into Smash.
Going by the recent trend of newcomers having something unique to their game or a special mechanic, I was thinking it'd be cool if Isaac used an approximation of his games' Djinn system, where you have little companion spirits that you can Set to yourself to boost stats, Unleash to perform special attacks, or move to Recovery to summon monsters. But to avoid making things too complex, he'd only have four Venus (earth-element) Djinn with him, to avoid having to deal with class changing mechanics.
So, Isaac would have four Venus Djinn with him in battle, represented by four sprites looking like this guy below Isaac's damage tracker. They can be Set (fully-colored), Standby (yellow-tinted), or Recovery (red-tinted). A Djinni that is Set will improve some of Isaac's moves; mainly those related to Psynergy:
Forward Smash: An overhead chop with his sword, similar-looking to Roy's flare blade animation. With at least one Djinni set, it becomes Ragnarok, causing a big energy blade to drop down in front of Isaac. More Djinn Set makes the energy sword do more damage. At four Djinn set, it becomes Odyssey (which I don't have a proper video for). Odyssey sumons more blades, causing a 3-hit combo if the enemy is in range. Down Smash: A downward swing that only hits in front of Isaac. With any Djinn, it becomes Quake, causing a shockwave to pulse around Isaac, hitting everything around him simultaneously. More Djinn means a more damaging wave, and possibly a bigger one? Up Smash: Thrusting the blade upwards while holding it sideways, kind of like a smash version of Ike's up-tilt. Any Djinn equipped turns it into Gaia, which makes a beam of energy erupt from the ground around Isaac, aimed straight up. Grab: Growth. A tether grab using vines. More Djinn means longer range, including for a tether recovery. No Djinn means no vines at all; just a normal grab. Side B: Move. Just the same thing as the Isaac assist trophy in Brawl: a ghostly hand that shoves people in one direction. More Djinn means a taller hand. Up B: Spire. A floating stalactite is summoned, and Isaac jumps off it, sending it falling downwards. More Djinn means more spires to jump off of in succession, meaning higher recovery and more attacks to below.
The Djinn would all be set by default, but four of Isaac's normals can be extended by hitting A a second time while they're being used. That will Unleash the Djinni associated with the move, adding an extra effect to the move and moving the Djinni to Standby mode:
Forward Tilt: A horizontal swipe. Unleasing Geode makes the swing throw a stone forward as a projectile. Up Tilt: a wide upward swing. Unleashing Echo adds a second swipe with much more launch power. Down Tilt: a low sweep. Unleashing Ground makes the swing bury the enemy. Dash attack: A sword swing with his full weight behind it. Unleashing Flint will boost the speed and power of the dash attack, making it a lot better at surprise cross-ups.
A Standby Djinn isn't powering up any special moves, and can't be unleashed again, but the Down B is used to work with that.
Down B: Set: Moves a Djinni back to Set from Standby. Last in first out. The animation slows your fall for a brief moment.
Though, there's another move that can be used with Standby Djinn.
Neutral B: Summon: Moves all Standby Djinn to Recovery, and summons a creature to attack. The summon attack is dependent on how many Djinn are in Standby.
0 Djinn: nothing
1 Djinni: Venus: The Djinn swirls around in front of Isaac to attack
2 Djinn: Ramses: Isaac summons the fist of a giant stone pharaoh and launches it forward
3 Djinn: Cybelle: Seeds are scattered in front of Isaac and grow into a patch of damaging vines that cling to the floor.
4 Djinn: Judgement: A big lion arm cannon is summoned, and Isaac uses it to fire a big energy ball in front of himself.
Djinn on Recovery can't be Set, and will eventually move themselves back to Set after a few seconds. Each. It goes one at a time.
Finally, Final Smash: Megiddo: Isaac leaps into the air and bats a massive fireball downward toward the stage, causing a big explosion where it lands.
So, what do you think? Maybe a bit too complex, but I would love to see that kind of detail paid to the character.
Wasn't the TMNT Smash-like game, made by many of the people who did Brawl, pretty good?
It wasn't terrible, but it was far from good. The stages were boring and the character selection was horrible. Three rabbids instead of any of the dozens of great TMNT characters was a crime.
In the end, all it did was make you wish you were just playing Smash Bros.
It's not really THAT Smash like, but I'm fond of Bari Bari ball from Sports Friends. Similar but different. I'd be up for more Smash games, much like I'd be up for more Powerstone style games.
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Once Nintendo started to take an active interest in promoting Smash 4 by being an official sponsor of some high-profile tournaments (and I mean community-driven ones, not official Nintendo ones), Project M didn't have a lot of room to breathe. Whether or not it was because Nintendo representatives sat on the tournament organizers, it stopped showing up at large-scale tournaments.
Unrelated, I feel that this quote from one of the P:M devs is relevant and illuminating:
I'm not part of the conspiracy set that's been all "we can't take the devs at their word, obviously Nintendo drowned them in lawyers so fuck them I'm pirating all their games forever", so I take this to mean exactly what it says. These guys poured a lot of blood, sweat, and tears into something that was in a legal gray area at best and developed a lot of useful game-development skills in the process, but so long as they were actively supporting it anything of their own they tried to produce would also be at risk.
EDIT: Which, after reading further on, now strikes me as a mildly naive view. But I'm still not one to say "A-haaaa, it's actually exactly the opposite!" without further proof.
But really, the total removal of the site makes me think Nintendo had a hand in this. It's not a "fuck them I'm pirating it all!" but more "Wow, this is a poor decision that does nothing but net bad PR for them."
It's all based on this post:
The same guy made the following post right before Cloud's reveal in the Nintendo Direct happened:
Edit: And it looks like GameXplain is already on the case:
Twitter: Cokomon | dA: Cokomon | Tumblr: Cokomon-art | XBL / NNID / Steam: Cokomon
We're gonna go back in time! *queue BttF theme*
I don't feel like its as gray an area as people think. Nintendo tried to sue galoob for the Game Genie back in the NES days for copyright infringement, claiming it created derivative works or something. And while PM is pretty well derivative of brawl, its still only a temporary change that is undone as soon as power is cut, and with it requiring a physical copy of the game, still doesn't really support a piracy model at all.
But I'd still be able to understand if they wanted to make something unique and possibly be able to monetize it. But in the same vein, im curious how well a smash game without smash characters would actually do. So far we only really have rivals of Aether to look at for that, but I cant say I've heard of a lot of RoAE tournaments happening or drawing the hype.
But, even though I understand that they're trying to keep a low profile, a request from them to not use their code to make a derivative work is maybe the most hilarious thing ever
Project M had Isaac, Lyn, Knuckles and Sami in the works. Isaac would've been my dream character.
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The idea of the Project M team making their own Smash-like does really seem like the most reasonable assumption to make, and it would make total sense from their point of view to take down Project M: not only would it sort of jeopardize their attempts to sell their own fighting game if they came to legal blows with Nintendo somehow, but it's a competitor to their own game if they try to sell it :P.
I think it's actually super reasonable for them to all of a sudden go "You know what...we could be getting paid for this."
I could very easily see them deciding they're going to "Dota 2" this.
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Fighting games didn't just stop at Street Fighter II, no reason this genre should just stop at Smash Bros. In fact, a standalone Smash-like by the Project M team has me way more interested than a mod of Brawl.
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That's not necessarily true. There are other cool characters. Like, the Playstation one totally had potential! Half their roster was just really stupid, and the mechanics were also kind of bad. But I wouldn't say that it's not theoretically impossible w/o Nintendo characters.
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I'd say that sounded unfair, since Papyrus would never kill anybody, but then you team him with *Hyun-Ae, and that kind of balances out the murder equation.
Why I fear the ocean.
I mean yeah, there are a few other developers/franchises that have similarly beloved characters. But creating a fighting game community from scratch with original characters is a really tall order when your competition is Smash.
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So, Isaac would have four Venus Djinn with him in battle, represented by four sprites looking like this guy below Isaac's damage tracker. They can be Set (fully-colored), Standby (yellow-tinted), or Recovery (red-tinted). A Djinni that is Set will improve some of Isaac's moves; mainly those related to Psynergy:
Forward Smash: An overhead chop with his sword, similar-looking to Roy's flare blade animation. With at least one Djinni set, it becomes Ragnarok, causing a big energy blade to drop down in front of Isaac. More Djinn Set makes the energy sword do more damage. At four Djinn set, it becomes Odyssey (which I don't have a proper video for). Odyssey sumons more blades, causing a 3-hit combo if the enemy is in range.
Down Smash: A downward swing that only hits in front of Isaac. With any Djinn, it becomes Quake, causing a shockwave to pulse around Isaac, hitting everything around him simultaneously. More Djinn means a more damaging wave, and possibly a bigger one?
Up Smash: Thrusting the blade upwards while holding it sideways, kind of like a smash version of Ike's up-tilt. Any Djinn equipped turns it into Gaia, which makes a beam of energy erupt from the ground around Isaac, aimed straight up.
Grab: Growth. A tether grab using vines. More Djinn means longer range, including for a tether recovery. No Djinn means no vines at all; just a normal grab.
Side B: Move. Just the same thing as the Isaac assist trophy in Brawl: a ghostly hand that shoves people in one direction. More Djinn means a taller hand.
Up B: Spire. A floating stalactite is summoned, and Isaac jumps off it, sending it falling downwards. More Djinn means more spires to jump off of in succession, meaning higher recovery and more attacks to below.
The Djinn would all be set by default, but four of Isaac's normals can be extended by hitting A a second time while they're being used. That will Unleash the Djinni associated with the move, adding an extra effect to the move and moving the Djinni to Standby mode:
Forward Tilt: A horizontal swipe. Unleasing Geode makes the swing throw a stone forward as a projectile.
Up Tilt: a wide upward swing. Unleashing Echo adds a second swipe with much more launch power.
Down Tilt: a low sweep. Unleashing Ground makes the swing bury the enemy.
Dash attack: A sword swing with his full weight behind it. Unleashing Flint will boost the speed and power of the dash attack, making it a lot better at surprise cross-ups.
A Standby Djinn isn't powering up any special moves, and can't be unleashed again, but the Down B is used to work with that.
Down B: Set: Moves a Djinni back to Set from Standby. Last in first out. The animation slows your fall for a brief moment.
Though, there's another move that can be used with Standby Djinn.
Neutral B: Summon: Moves all Standby Djinn to Recovery, and summons a creature to attack. The summon attack is dependent on how many Djinn are in Standby.
0 Djinn: nothing
1 Djinni: Venus: The Djinn swirls around in front of Isaac to attack
2 Djinn: Ramses: Isaac summons the fist of a giant stone pharaoh and launches it forward
3 Djinn: Cybelle: Seeds are scattered in front of Isaac and grow into a patch of damaging vines that cling to the floor.
4 Djinn: Judgement: A big lion arm cannon is summoned, and Isaac uses it to fire a big energy ball in front of himself.
Djinn on Recovery can't be Set, and will eventually move themselves back to Set after a few seconds. Each. It goes one at a time.
Finally, Final Smash: Megiddo: Isaac leaps into the air and bats a massive fireball downward toward the stage, causing a big explosion where it lands.
So, what do you think? Maybe a bit too complex, but I would love to see that kind of detail paid to the character.
Well it was made by the people who made Brawl, so no.
It was very mediocre. It didn't really play all that much like Smash and the roster was disappointing. Seriously, we didn't need THREE rabbids.
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It wasn't terrible, but it was far from good. The stages were boring and the character selection was horrible. Three rabbids instead of any of the dozens of great TMNT characters was a crime.
In the end, all it did was make you wish you were just playing Smash Bros.
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It is.
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If this Direct also announces that DLC for Smash is wrapping up, at least it means the end of so many goddamn rumors and "leaks."
The broadcast is on December 16th in Japan.
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They might want to avoid patching the game before the direct, since the last time that pretty much spoiled Roy and Ryu.
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