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[PA Comic] Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - Vis A Vis My Lawn

DogDog Registered User, Administrator, Vanilla Staff admin
edited February 2015 in The Penny Arcade Hub

image[PA Comic] Wednesday, February 11, 2015 - Vis A Vis My Lawn

Vis A Vis My Lawn

Vis A Vis My Lawn

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2015/02/11

Read the full story here


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Posts

  • Kwisatz Haderach Kwisatz Haderach The power to destroy a thing is the absolute control over it. Registered User regular
    Open Letter to Parents of League of Legends Players: http://ow.ly/IRq2E

    Nice strip, excellent writing and artwork as always :)

  • nxmehtanxmehta Registered User regular
    rekt

    kime
  • Albino BunnyAlbino Bunny Jackie Registered User regular
    I was kinda expecting the letter to be super obnoxious but it's actually pretty reasonable (IE, don't drag your kids off of a match and if they abuse you not doing this don't let them play League).

    Which considering it's the League community is kinda shocking.

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  • RedthirstRedthirst Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Wait, so it happens that often that someone actualy wrote this letter? How do they know that those leavers are children?

    Redthirst on
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  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Apparently Tycho is at least part demon goat.

    Commander ZoomtastydonutscB557
  • QuidQuid Definitely not a banana Registered User regular
    Redthirst wrote: »
    Wait, so it happens that often that someone actualy wrote this letter? How do they know that those leavers are children?

    It was just submitted by another player. So it's probably a combination of kids in the community talking on the forums and the poster themselves likely being fairly young.

  • InvertinInvertin Registered User regular
    It is my experience with human beings that they prefer to create consistant ritualistic behaivour out of their life rather than a series of spontanious events.

    So another possibility would be don't play your once-in-a-lifetime unpausable multiplayer videogame experience at a time which you know you're about to have to fucking leave holy shit

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  • RedthirstRedthirst Registered User regular
    Invertin wrote: »
    It is my experience with human beings that they prefer to create consistant ritualistic behaivour out of their life rather than a series of spontanious events.

    So another possibility would be don't play your once-in-a-lifetime unpausable multiplayer videogame experience at a time which you know you're about to have to fucking leave holy shit

    You can't know for sure. I might have an hour of free time, which is usualy enough to play a match of Dota 2. But the match can also sometimes last for more than an hour, or someone can disconnect and the game will be paused for 10+ minutes.

    steam_sig.png
  • streeverstreever Registered User regular
    @Albino Bunny
    I think the letter starts of somewhat reasonably, but devolves at the end.
    "Let him finish the game. This sounds like you're letting your child walk all over you, but please just let the game finish normally and follow through with step 2."

    What? why would a parent give a care about some other person's "League of Legends" score? Nah, parents don't have to let their kids finish video games. The parents should absolutely have the right to say "No, I don't care, turn it off. You're eating dinner with us."

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  • trickcyclisttrickcyclist Registered User regular
    Soooooo much sex aborted indeed. How did we ever get a second child? How does anybody manage a third without risking child services getting involved because they were doing it in front of the other two, like people in medieval times or France?

    italianranmaR0n1n_76
  • [email protected]Ryan@ Registered User regular
    As someone who grew up as a gamer in the 80s and 90s, before the online coop play was even a thing, I understand the "I wanna play my game and I'm not hungry"; as a parent who is raising a very willful toddler who is showing similar signs over anything he is interested in at that particular moment, I see very well the flip side of the coin.
    I agree with Tycho 100% on this. It's a game; it's not as if you're a doctor who is scrubbing in to save a human beings life and I am saying "come eat your veggies", it is recreation. It will still be there after you eat, and most parents will be willing to let you go back to it when you can demonstrate that it does not dominate every moment of your day because they won't have to worry about you starving to death like some idiot at in internet café on a starcraft binge, or failing school because you don't do homework.
    It's about the food, yes, but it's also about learning to be a human being who can survive. I'm not raising a dependant, I'm raising a functional human being, and if that means that in order to get their attention I have to flip a breaker in the basement to completely power off their sources of entertainment and we eat by candle-light, so be it.

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  • KoopahTroopahKoopahTroopah The koopas, the troopas. Philadelphia, PARegistered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Man, some of those replies on that league board. That's ludicrous.

    Also, isn't that what Leavebuster is inadvertently meant to do? Teach time management and responsibility before starting a game so you don't start one you can't finish? How about the kids check in with their parents before queuing ranked? If the parent wants their kid to do their chores or spend time with the family, they have every right to say "Sorry no more video games today." It's called being a parent.

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  • CabezoneCabezone Registered User regular
    I'm all for teaching kids the all important "it's just a game" lesson.

    Zionad
  • AntonNULAntonNUL Registered User regular
    God, I love Tycho and his design here.

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  • LinktmLinktm Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I actually expected the original letter to be insane, and was going to share it and laugh about it with people and go "Look at these crazy League players." But, it's actually pretty fair. If as a parent (who is a gamer, because let's face it, regular parents probably don't understand or give a shit) you're able to just shit on 9 (or let's face it, the 4 people who are gonna lose) recreational experience, then you're kind of an asshole. It'd be like turning off a television everyone else is watching because Little Timmy has to go home for the day. "Oh, were you in the middle of watching that movie? Well, you need to stop watching it now."

    I totally understand real life happens and it's important, and I'd say it's more important than a Non-Ranked Match, it sucks when that stuff happens, but it's not permanently affecting you in any meaningful way. You just surrender at 20 or whatever and count your losses (it's nice that Heroes of the Storm gives you an AI character replacement, even if they're as dumb as a brick.) For ranked play, that's a little more "serious" and tempers can flare up, sure it's game, but it's something you're invested in and in theory are doing to RELAX or HAVE FUN. Not something you're able to do when you're getting bent over backwards by the enemy team and dropping in hard earned (through skill or playtime) rank. At the end of the day though, it's still the kid's responsibility to be responsible BOTH to other people AND to events they have prior commitments too. Sometimes a crazy long match happens, if it does, and it's not life or death (like having dinner at a certain time or being in bed 10 minutes earlier) just let your kid finish what they were doing. If your kid is actively queueing up for things KNOWING he won't be able to even commit the bare minimum amount of playtime, THEN they should be punished.

    I also say this all as a non-competitive MOBA player. Hell, I played from work, and I knew it was a gamble, and I had to leave any number of matches because people came in my office or whatever. But I also exclusively played Non-Ranked matches when there was a chance I'd have to leave so as to avoid royally fucking anyone over.

    All of that aside, if you're still like "Fuck you, it's a game, stop taking it so seriously, etc." teach your kid responsibility to other people who depend on them. If your kid is actively dicking people over by being irresponsible, PUNISH THEM FOR DOING SO. Please don't raise kids that're not going to be dependable, just because it starts in an online game doesn't mean it won't carry over into other more important things like work deadlines, being there for friends/family when you say you will, etc.

    Linktm on
    PuddingpiefortycB557
  • RedthirstRedthirst Registered User regular
    This is a double-edged sword, really.

    The argument that "it's just a game, so there's nothing wrong with wasting people's time there" sounds stupid to me.

    At the same time, this letter should be aimed at child gamers themselves. They know when they are going to eat or go to sleep, so it's their task to manage their time and not start the game they can't quit at any moment without fucking up 9 other people.

    steam_sig.png
    Commander ZoomPuddingpienathanaelPLAcB557
  • NeuroskepticNeuroskeptic Registered User regular
    AntonNUL wrote: »
    God, I love Tycho and his design here.

    This is my favorite "new style" art yet, by a mile. You can almost feel your screen melting from the rage in panel #2.

    kime
  • rahkeesh2000rahkeesh2000 Registered User regular
    So some want to teach kids that people on the internet aren't real?

    Obviously so are people in the house, so it doesn't mean you can put off dinner cause of your leagueing. But one way or the other, they should learn to responsibly not start team games when dinner is near. Just because your medium is "fake" doesn't mean you can't be a very real dick to other people with it.

    Puddingpieforty
  • LinktmLinktm Registered User regular
    Redthirst wrote: »
    At the same time, this letter should be aimed at child gamers themselves.

    I agree with this and don't. In theory it works, but it sort of goes into this "Well, who should be raising your kid? The community or the parent?" deal.

  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Soooooo much sex aborted indeed. How did we ever get a second child? How does anybody manage a third without risking child services getting involved because they were doing it in front of the other two, like people in medieval times or France?

    "Daddy, can I have a sleepover at -"
    "YES OH DEAR GOD LET ME PACK YOUR WEEKEND BAG."
    Linktm wrote: »
    you're able to just shit on 9 (or let's face it, the 4 people who are gonna lose) recreational experience, then you're kind of an asshole.

    The parent is not shitting on anyone. The kid, as the player, has done that by starting a game he (whether knowingly or by negligence) cannot commit to. He does not get a reward for doing this, any consequences he gets from screwing over his team is, frankly, a well deserved part of the punishment.

    Hevach on
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  • orthancstoneorthancstone TexasRegistered User regular
    Parenting tips from someone who comes across sounding like they are barely 20 with no responsibilities in life. Truly adorable.

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  • RedthirstRedthirst Registered User regular
    Linktm wrote: »
    Redthirst wrote: »
    At the same time, this letter should be aimed at child gamers themselves.

    I agree with this and don't. In theory it works, but it sort of goes into this "Well, who should be raising your kid? The community or the parent?" deal.

    Why can't we have both?

    steam_sig.png
    Linktm
  • Agent86Agent86 Registered User regular
    Hahahaha that comic is amazing.

    Parents have enough of your shit to worry about without having to worry about your video game etiquette. If a kid has to get off the game in the middle because their parent said to, that's on them. It's like blaming the electric company for disconnecting someone from League that didn't pay their bill.

    Mister KojakMenasorEl MuchocereskimeZionadRagnar DragonfyreBobbleLangly
  • LinktmLinktm Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Hevach wrote: »
    The parent is not shitting on anyone.

    Not always. It really depends on what the parent is doing. If the kid has chores, dinner, homework, bedtime, etc. that's legit.

    If you as a parent need to use the computer to watch a funny cat video your sibling told you about over the phone, or if you need to check your eBay auctions so you can snipe bid, etc. Then you're definitely shitting on your kid and being an asshole. That's more or less what I meant, and it was more so directed towards parents who aren't technologically savvy. For example, my friend and I were playing a game together, but had to take like a 15 minute interlude because his dad needed to check his eBay auctions (yes, some households still only have one computer where nobody owns smartphones or tablets, I'm surprised as you are.)
    Redthirst wrote: »
    Why can't we have both?

    I agree with you there. Nothing wrong with a joint effort.

    Linktm on
  • InvertinInvertin Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    So some want to teach kids that people on the internet aren't real?

    Considering Tryndamere is the name of a fictional character, I am fairly certain that Trynadmere is not real and illusions to the contrary are probably a bad sign.

    Invertin on
  • FaustXIIIFaustXIII Registered User new member
    edited February 2015
    Invertin wrote: »
    So some want to teach kids that people on the internet aren't real?

    Considering Tryndamere is the name of a fictional character, I am fairly certain that Trynadmere is not real and illusions to the contrary are probably a bad sign.

    First off, Tryndamere is a name and psuedonym used by the founder of Riot games, so technically, it is a real person so bad example using that name.

    Second, the character is fictional. That doesn't mean the player BEHIND the character is.

    I think the letter's being taken in the wrong context here. Sure that particular player is complaining about people leaving the game but ultimately what he's stating is true in that the leaver is affecting 9 other people in a competitive environment. Even in a non ladder environment it's frustrating. I'm in complete agreement with LINKTM and Redthirst's comments.

    Yes it's on the child but it's also on the parent. To me, a healthy parent-child relationship involves compromise and communication otherwise you as a parent are acting like a dictator. The characters aren't real but the players behind them are. What if your ally only has time for one game? It is now significantly less fun because of a disadvantage that's outside his or her control. I find this comic unwarranted and frankly I'm more and more disliking PA. "It's just a game" as an argument should not apply to competitive multi-player games as it's responsibility to the other players that you have agreed to by entering the game. I'm not saying start up a game 10 minutes before whatever. That's on the child to LEARN better time management and on the parent to TEACH better time management. That should be the message taken from the letter not this inconsiderate possessive thinking that this comic portrays.

    FaustXIII on
    LinktmPuddingpiecB557
  • HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Linktm wrote: »
    If you as a parent need to use the computer to watch a funny cat video your sibling told you about over the phone, or if you need to check your eBay auctions so you can snipe bid, etc.

    Yeah, except that's not at all the situation being laid out here.

    The open letter straight up says, "If your kid ignores the above rules and starts a game close to (bed/dinner/chores/etc) time, let him off the hook until he finishes the game. Then and only then punish him." To which I say, "No. You do not get a cookie for breaking the rules. The rule is there so you don't ruin it for everyone, and now you broke it, so you just ruined it for everyone. No 'Dad can I just' nuh-uh. No. You can go to bed."
    Yes it's on the child but it's also on the parent. To me, a healthy parent-child relationship involves compromise and communication otherwise you as a parent are acting like a dictator. The characters aren't real but the players behind them are. What if your ally only has time for one game? It is now significantly less fun because of a disadvantage that's outside his or her control. I find this comic unwarranted and frankly I'm more and more disliking PA. "It's just a game" as an argument should not apply to competitive multi-player games as it's responsibility to the other players that you have agreed to by entering the game. I'm not saying start up a game 10 minutes before whatever. That's on the child to LEARN better time management and on the parent to TEACH better time management. That should be the message taken from the letter not this inconsiderate possessive thinking that this comic portrays.

    The Open Letter to Parents, however, addresses exactly this, about establishing rules for managing time, like not starting a LoL game within one hour of a set cutoff time for playing games so it doesn't get over.

    However, it then explicitly says that if the kid shows poor time management, or breaks the rules, that you should let them finish the game (In bold caps even!) - skip dinner, skip chores, stay up late, whatever. The letter spends twice as long explaining this as it does establishing the validity of boundaries, on the justification that it's to shelter them from the consequences of letting down team mates, thus teaching them responsibility to others.

    Shelter from consequences is the opposite of teaching.

    Hevach on
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  • dennisdennis aka bingley Registered User regular
    Dat nose.

    forty
  • beetnemesisbeetnemesis Registered User regular
    On the one hand, yes. On the other hand, I still have PTSD from trying, over the course of years, to explain to my parents what a "save point" was.

    LinktmkimeTofystedethDonnictonNothingRagnar DragonfyreBobble
  • AdumbroDeusAdumbroDeus Registered User new member
    What it's somehow unreasonable to not remove your kid from group events due to impacting other people? Sure, the magic sword person isn't real, but there's an actual person behind that magic sword person, just like there is behind all internet identities. That's something that kids need to be taught, and that's the reason why it's wrong to shout racial slurs at magic sword person.

    That's why it's no different then pulling your son or daughter out of a little league game in the middle of it.

    As for the parental respect from the letter writer, it should've been fairly obvious that the letter writer was an adult who was merely frustrated at being punished for being unlucky enough to be placed with children whose parents had no conception of the fact that their kids behavior impacted 9 other people or simply don't care how their behavior impacts others.

    This isn't about the kid, it's about a. teaching the kid respect for others, and B. teaching the kid that people behind the screen are real people that need to be treated with respect. Of course with parents like you it's no wonder that the Greater Internet Dickwad Theory exists.

    LinktmPuddingpie
  • RedthirstRedthirst Registered User regular
    While I'm not a parent myself, so I can't talk from experience it still seems that the best course of action in this situation is to let the kid finish the game, and then teach him time management, and punish if needed. If you just force him to leave the game, you are being selfish and inconsiderate to 9 people.

    steam_sig.png
    Puddingpie
  • CabezoneCabezone Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    I think those people will get over having their hobby interrupted. I don't see how it's any different then a kid being called home for dinner who's in the middle of a football game down at the park.

    Cabezone on
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  • Senna1Senna1 Registered User regular
    I was kinda expecting the letter to be super obnoxious but it's actually pretty reasonable
    lolwut?

    How about: no.
    Linktm wrote: »
    I totally understand real life happens and it's important, and I'd say it's more important than a Non-Ranked Match, it sucks when that stuff happens, but it's not permanently affecting you in any meaningful way. You just surrender at 20 or whatever and count your losses (it's nice that Heroes of the Storm gives you an AI character replacement, even if they're as dumb as a brick.) For ranked play, that's a little more "serious"...
    Real life is only more important than "non-ranked" videogames?

    Again, how about: no. (and a healthy dose of: really?... Really???!)
    Parenting tips from someone who comes across sounding like they are barely 20 with no responsibilities in life. Truly adorable.
    This. 1000X this. Videogame mission/quest completion, ranked or not, is at about position, oh, 2375 on the list of "things I give a shit about as a parent". "Is my child obeying me, right now"? is in the top 10. Every time.
    FaustXIII wrote: »
    To me, a healthy parent-child relationship involves compromise and communication otherwise you as a parent are acting like a dictator.
    You don't "compromise" w/ a 10-year old or teenager. You set boundaries, then enforce them. There is a time for discussion w/ more mature children, but it isn't in the middle of them disobeying me in favor of a G-D computer game.

    How about this: if you as a ranked videogame player don't want to deal with the potential of pub players having to leave unexpectedly, don't play with them. Set up a clan. Vet your team to eliminate likely unreliable players and those who aren't capable of self-determination of their schedules (like, say, children).

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  • RedthirstRedthirst Registered User regular
    Cabezone wrote: »
    I think those people will get over having their hobby interrupted. I don't see how it's any different then a kid being called home for dinner who's in the middle of a football game down at the park.
    The difference is that a lot of people take video games(especialy complex ones, like MOBAs) seriously.

    steam_sig.png
  • GanluanGanluan Registered User regular
    I literally had this happen to me when I was a kid. At one point my family was outside swimming and wanted me to join them, and I kept refusing because I was playing some late 90s MMO. My Dad literally came inside, shut off the PC, and walked back outside.

    This was after a pattern of me getting too absorbed in a game, so I can't blame him. Now that I'm a parent, I'd likely do the same thing.

    We balance this with my son where if he's playing PvZ or something on his iPad, we let him finish it up before we eat together. But if he knowingly started something that would take an hour when dinner is being cooked? Sorry, you're shit out of luck on that one.

    Necrox
  • Rhesus PositiveRhesus Positive GNU Terry Pratchett Registered User regular
    Redthirst wrote: »
    Cabezone wrote: »
    I think those people will get over having their hobby interrupted. I don't see how it's any different then a kid being called home for dinner who's in the middle of a football game down at the park.
    The difference is that a lot of people take video games(especialy complex ones, like MOBAs) seriously.

    The response to this is a fifty-foot, gold-plated, "so what?"

    There are people that take everything seriously. Doesn't mean that a teenager is the arbiter of perspective when it comes to these things.

    [Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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  • LinktmLinktm Registered User regular
    edited February 2015
    Cabezone wrote: »
    I don't see how it's any different then a kid being called home for dinner who's in the middle of a football game down at the park.

    Because everyone involved is not the same age as the kid being called home for dinner. Because the people playing might only be able to play a single match at that moment in time, and the inconsiderate kid ruined it. Because somebody wanted to play a game in order to have fun and relax and now they're doing the exact opposite of that.
    Senna1 wrote: »
    Real life is only more important than "non-ranked" videogames?

    It depends on what that real life thing is. When you're entering a ranked game (or an MMO raid or whatever) you're signing a personal contract with other human beings to commit your time to said event/activity and give it your uninterrupted attention in order to provide maximum levels of "fun". Unexpected things happen in the real world, and if you need to bail then you bail. But, if you know you've got dinner, or Grandma is coming over, or you have a Pizza being delivered, you probably don't want to queue up for a ranked match that people play COMPETITIVELY and your actions (or lack there of) will hurt 4 other individuals on your team.
    Hevach wrote: »
    Shelter from consequences is the opposite of teaching.

    I'm pretty sure the consequences are "Hey, you're parentaly banned from League of Legends for the next week." Sure, there's that extra bit of "oomph" if you ban them from League of Legends AND make them logoff immediately, but I'm guessing just missing out on a single game and being inconsiderate to the people they were playing with is significantly lower on their totem of punishments than "knowingly playing the last League of Legends game I'll get to play for the next week because of my poor time management skills and respect for my parents' pre-scheduled activities/life events/rules."

    Linktm on
  • Agent86Agent86 Registered User regular
    Also, along the line of "teaching your kids life lessons", I would hope that when my child becomes an adult and an after hours work crisis comes up or whatever, that he knows to put down League of Legends VIII or whatever the game is and attend to real life. Those 9 other people in the game aren't gonna pay your salary when you get fired, and they'll get over it.

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  • AshiverAshiver Registered User regular
    I just want to say that life takes priority 100%, I have left ranked games due to emergencies and had friends do the same and encouraged them to go forward with it at times they have hesitated. However! As Jerry is someone who actually plays League of Legends and is a hardcore gamer at that I expect him and others like him to be aware of his sons activities prior to "Paramount Family Time Mandatory Hour". Maybe you don't let your kid que up in the hour before dinner, because you are aware you could very easily potentially be saying "fuck you" to four people. Parents are either neglectful of being aware of what their kid is doing in the time just prior to dinner, irresponsible if they are aware their kid is queuing yet don't care how that will likely impact their team in fifteen minutes time, or disconnected to the point of not understanding what playing a moba entails, i.e. committing time to completing a match with four other people.

    To me this is why games can't be considered E-sports If your kid was playing baseball or soccer or even bowling and you happened to live next door to the field/bowling alley they happened to be playing at you wouldn't pull them from their game in the middle of it and say "HEY, TIME FOR DINNER FUCK YOUR TEAM". Yet League of Legends is now the most played game in the WORLD, but people still treat it like "Who gives a shit, you are on the computer, not participating in an actual game with actual people".

    Expanding on the analogy a little more, would you let your kid go to the park to play pickup basketball with friends just before dinner? What if they said they might be late, or straight up said they would definitely be late? If you think you would say "sure" anyway but still insist on pulling the plug on League I think that's messed up. Now, if you say you wouldn't let them go to begin with then you shouldn't be letting them play League right before dinner either. It's really inconsiderate to the other players, and while you are effectively teaching them family takes precedence you are also teaching them not to give a damn about others and bad sportsmanship.

    PuddingpiefortycB557
  • Grey PaladinGrey Paladin Registered User regular
    Disclaimer: I am not a parent.
    I agree with the "Don't start what you can't finish" line of thought and that real life comes first, but I always found the insistence on eating as a family really weird. If a child has to do their chores or their homework then sure, but why the emphasis on the dinner ritual?

    "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity; but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act their dream with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence
    LinktmPLAcB557
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