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Fellow Groomsmen using casual anti-gay hate speech
Botznoy
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So, I'm a groomsman for a good friends wedding but one of the other groomsmen is constantly using 'gay' as a derogatory to refer to something being bad or otherwise not good as well as just as casually using a-British-term-for-a-cigarette for the same purpose and it really makes me clench my jaw and get really fucking pissed. I've refrained from calling him out on it and otherwise causing a bust up because we are the groomsmen and creating a hostile atmosphere in the build up to my friends would be a huge disservice. At the same time I find it personally abhorrent and I really want to address.
So I'm stuck between just letting sleeping dogs lie and putting it aside for my friends wedding, or potentially causing a bust up by calling him out on it.
So I'm stuck between just letting sleeping dogs lie and putting it aside for my friends wedding, or potentially causing a bust up by calling him out on it.
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There are some situation you could do something about this but the answers to those questions might make it impossible.
Whatever you do either do it well before the wedding (like, now before) or let it go until after the festivities (including reception) are all finished with.
I'm sure this is frustrating to have to explain it at all, but the good news is 10 years ago asking someone not to say those things would have been outre and an example of thought policing.
In an era of widespread LGBT acceptance, lots of people use those words not out of a real animus towards gay people but to police behavior of straight men when they are seen as too "feminine" - see e.g. http://faculty.ucc.edu/psysoc-stokes/masculinity.pdf. So one thing he might say is that he doesn't have any [conscious] anti-LGBT feelings and be 100% honest when he says it.
Productive engagement there would be to acknowledge what he said, but explain the problem is the words are inherently hateful, and other people don't always get that they're not meant to be harmful, and unless you're among friends only and the context is 100% clear, the word itself is hateful and you never know who your words impact and how. Which is why using n****r isn't okay even in 99% of situations as a non-black person even if you're not racist.
I'm there for my friend and I don't have to deal with this person basically at all after the wedding
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I agree with everyone that if you choose to say something, do it one on one and away from people.
As for whether you should ignore it, I would say that no, you shouldn't. You should say something, because behaviour like that going unchecked allows it to continue. Eventually, someone will say something. It might as well be you. If you're heterosexual, this is one of those "with great privilege comes great responsibility" moments.
I find that addressing it directly and succinctly goes a really long way. It usually ends in mild embarrassment and apology. Rarely does it end it more fighting if it is someone you are acquainted with or know personally.
I get why people would say that, but the reason stuff like this goes on forever is because everyone is too worried about someone being upset at them if they say anything. Botznoy shouldn't make a scene about it, shouldn't get into an argument about it, but a casual and as friendly as possible request that he not say those things should be done. The guy will respond how he's going to respond, and then Botznoy can drop it.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
Gotta weigh it with your personal relationship with the guy. If he's the kind of person who blows up and acts passive aggressive, you should wait until after the wedding.
If he's the guy that gets taken aback because he didn't want to offend anyone, then by all means, bring it up in a private setting so he's not put on the spot and feels trapped and attacked.
There's some finesse in this situation that can only really be answered by OP on the type of person that the other groomsman is.
Using someone else's wedding as a narrative to push a pro/con debate is a pretty shitty thing to do to the innocent third parties here, so think about it pretty carefully. If you feel like this is going to cause a ton of problems in general, it might be better to just bow out as a member of the wedding party.
I'm not saying let it go on forever.
I'm saying let it go on until one of the most stressful/important days of your friends life goes by. As a groomsman, you are responsible for ensuring that that day goes by as smoothly as possible.
I guess where the disagreement comes in between us is what constitutes "smoothly."
If you say something casually, privately, and politely about "please don't say that in front of me, thank you!" and his response will be to ruin the day of the bride and groom over it, then he's an incredibly unstable individual who was primed to make a scene about something anyway. Events with people like that, to quote someone more intelligent than me, come pre-ruined. If he doesn't have Botznoy's comment to wig out over, he's going to wig out that one of the bridesmaid's didn't respond to his flirting, or that he thought one of the other guests wasn't nice enough to him or that the food wasn't as good as he though it should be. If he's a regular adult, though, then he'll feel either angry or embarrassed about it, might say something rude to Botznoy about it and/or hate Botznoy forever, but isn't going to make a big deal to his friend the bride or groom over it.
I dunno. I get that it's a nerve wracking situation. I get that you'd want to put your personal feelings behind the feelings of the bride and groom. I guess I just wonder where that politeness ends? If he were saying those words to your actual gay friend standing there, would it be OK to say nothing? If other people besides Botznoy heard him say this stuff, do we know that none of them were gay? What if it were a different word? What if he said that ethnic slur for black people in front of you? Would you say nothing then?
I'm not going to condemn Botznoy if he says nothing (god knows I've been too afraid of the reaction at times to say things when I wanted to say them). I just think that if there's a right choice here, it's to say something.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
I'm torn because you never know who's going to be in the crowd and shit like that's going to ostracize them too. But the groom and bride didn't seem bothered by it so it's not really anyone else's call to make here I don't think.
Right after the reception. Because that's when the groomsman's responsibility to the bride and groom is over.
Well I guess I didn't communicate very well. I'm not asking "what point in time do you bring it up?" I was asking "how far does a person have to go in breaking the social contract before speaking out is acceptable in this situation?" The situation as given is that someone is using abusive language for a particular group of people, and Botznoy is being negatively affected by it, and for all you know many others in the room are also being made uncomfortable. Well, you're going to let that slide, for the sake of the bride and groom. But what if your gay friend is right there, and groomsman is actually saying this directly to your friend, he's being subject to abuse? Well, you're going to let it slide, for the sake of the bride and groom. What if it's your girlfriend is right there, being abused by the groomsman with words like "bitch" and "cunt"? Well, you're going to let it slide, for the sake of the bride and groom. What if he were being violent with someone in the room? Nothing too harsh, he just shoved someone much smaller than him, and the shoved person fell to the floor. Well, you're going to let it slide, for the sake of the bride and groom. What if the violence were more pronounced, what if he were viciously beating someone right in front of you, and you could see actual blood on this hands? Well...
That's the question I was asking. At what point does this become something you can't just overlook for the sake of the bride and groom? To me, someone breaking the social contract is the one who's harming the bride and groom. If you act like a mature adult and ask them to stop, you are not the one who has transgressed.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
I sort of feel the entire question is moot because if the statement were breaking social contract it would actually be the groom's responsibility to tell the guy to knock it off as it is his shindig.
There are gradients here that are pretty simple. Casual response would be a safe bet "dude, not cool" is not something that is going to ruin the wedding and if the guy makes it an issue it's entirely on him and the groom to resolve. Calling the guy out incessantly, however, is probably making it into more of a problem than the situation should allow for given that the purpose of the event is to support the groom, not the harmed party by the vulgar guy's words. That doesn't mean be a doormat, but a more tactful situation would be (if it were repeated and the guy refuses to knock it off) to then quietly bring it up with the groom and, if the groom doesn't make an effort to get the guy to knock it off or supports the guy making the comments, then quietly extract yourself from the ceremony.
The guy has a tendency to get really shitty when things dont go his way and act kinda explosively but he's not completely terrible person but he's the only member.of the groomsmen that uses that language at least when I'm there.
We've got a few more casual events in the build up to the wedding if it continues I'll have a quiet word to him because ultimately making a scene is not productive for the wedding and especially for the groom if he knows two of his groomsmen are going at each other.
They're also very much unaware of their own privelage and I'm scared they'll just react with its PC gone mad or some other silliness and that'll just end negatively but at the same time saying nothing is perpetuating the behaviour which I find incredibly offensive to the point where I get squicked about it
Want to play co-op games? Feel free to hit me up!
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
As a groomsman, you do important things like calm your buddy down, make sure no one is screwing with anything important and making smoothing over any issues that crop up. I'm all for social justice, but major events (planned or accidental/traumatic) are the one time you suck it up if it's going to mess with all sorts of other things.
Christ, or just wait for a few hours/days/whatever until the whole thing is done and bring it up to your hearts content.
Weddings aren't cheap or easy. You're there because the groom thought enough of you that he wants you to be a very important part of one of the biggest days of his life.
The caveat is that you need to help make it run as smoothly as possible, and possibly help seat old relatives and friends.
The unspoken caveat is that you don't add additional stress to his already stressful day!
unless the other groomsman is Houdini, you can still bring all of this up after the reception! I encourage you to!
I agree with this. When I was young, up until my early twenties actually, I used "gay" as a negative thing. It was just so burned into my brain as a child. When playing a game or experiencing some random disappointment, it was always "Oh man, that's so gay." I never even equated that to homosexuality, it was just a word that meant "lame" to me. It wasn't until someone pointed it out to me what I was doing and saying that I began to train myself not to say it anymore.
Maybe this guy is a doofus like me and doesn't realize what he's actually saying. Mentioning something to him might help him figure it out.
Want to play co-op games? Feel free to hit me up!
Possibly, possibly not. Again context is pretty important here. If the guy is making people who are trying to support the groom uncomfortable your obligation to the groom may or may not be greater than your right to not be treated like garbage. In most cases, yeah I'd probably make Cambiata's casual comment style of response and try to ignore that one guy. But that's me as a white, straight male not directly being targeted by the speech assuming no one there is part of the LGBTQ community. In a different context, where it wasn't only socially tactless and offensive but actually directed at someone there (myself or others as a member(s) of the LGBTQ community) I probably would not just roll over because hateful speech isn't acceptable at any time and while the groom has a lot going on, part of what is going on is his responsibility to the guests there to support his wedding.
As a former groom my ownself, if this shit were going down even casually I would have Gibbs-smacked the guy on the back of the head and told him to knock it off or leave, because all of the people I invited to my wedding deserved to be there and not feel like shit. Because those you invite are your friends, are there to support you, but are also there because you support them. The role of groom goes both ways and it's essentially your responsibility to set the tone of the event.
The reason I think that's a bad idea is because what you're suggesting actually sounds like making a scene, and I don't agree that making a scene will help anything. "yes, I held on tightly to this thing you said three weeks ago, letting it fester, so that I could accuse you publicly that you may understand your transgression, sinner!!"
Whereas the drama-free way of doing it would similar to the way you'd address it if he talking about how all employees of Verizon are idiots as kind of a joke, and then you laughingly let him know "hey, I work at Verizon though!". You're not trying to embarrass him, you don't want to hold on to it for a month before vomiting it out at him in the accusation parlor. You just address the thing casually as it comes up, one time only, and move on.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
I'm on the fence because this has a very real chance of fucking over the wedding and costing people money at the expense of some hurt feelings for a few hours.
If anything it exposes this guy as a jerk to all his friends and family and he'll face the very real ramification of this.
One has to ask, what is gained by outing this right now, and right there? Are you correcting someone? At what expense? There's a time and place for this stuff, someone's wedding isn't a soapbox, I don't think. Even if the soapbox is privately between the two people, if he has a tendency to act like a douche, it's probably best to avoid it for the sake of your friend's wedding (they obviously have history and are friends).
How would any one feel if their best friend was outed during their pre-wedding stuff and no longer wanted to be in the wedding party?
You would be amazed, bowen, at how one small word from someone, a stranger even, making it seem like that person thinks you deserve to exist, can make your life somehow brighter and more hopeful than before. We don't know if there's anyone gay in the party hearing these things. But there might be. And they might be feeling hopeless and depressed about how they can never let their friends know that they're gay or bisexual, because look at the casual way they all except the slurs from this man.
Hey, maybe there aren't any gay people in the party. But even planting the seed in that man's mind that not everyone agrees 100% with using that slur will help in some way. Just knowing there is opposition to a concept you believed blindly goes a long way towards opening your mind to different ways of thinking.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
If it was my wedding, and I hadn't realized that a member of my wedding party was in a position to make my guests feel hurt and uncomfortable, I'd absolutely want someone to politely bring that to my attention.
I would tell the groom in private, in as polite and compassionate a way possible, that this guy is consistently using language that you, as well as many wedding guests, feel falls somewhere between extremely rude and legitimately upsetting. Make sure it's clear that either way, you've got his back and aren't gonna let it effect your role in everything. But, it's his friend (or brother in law, or whatever), and his wedding, so he gets to decide if this is problem that needs to be addressed.
Edited to add: if he doesn't feel it's worth addressing, I agree with everyone else about telling him it's not cool after it's all over, if you still feel like it.
Basically yeah. Once in a while I catch myself doing this. It's embarrassing.
I feel like if you've got to make a thread about it or take him aside, the ship on being casual about it has sailed. I've never sat in a room, for instance, of people saying causally racist things where 1)It wasn't understood that I was uncomfortable, its always fucking obvious, or 2)Me saying "Dude.", as I'm likely to do, causes a huge scene. What you don't want to do is try and sit him down and tell him how sad and uncomfortable you feel because he says gay in the derogatory, because that is causing a huge scene, and clearly he doesn't care.
Basically, you don't have to sit and pretend to laugh with him about it. But making this guy you don't know see the light is a fantasy, even after the wedding is over. If hes directly antagonizing you or someone else at the wedding, then sure, your friends special day isn't an excuse for him to harass people. If hes just an idiot baby that's in your friends wedding party then you have to know when to cool your jets. Just don't be a pain in the ass by bristling the whole wedding over it, and have a good time. If you have to say "Bro, chill" just to allow yourself to do that, sure, but don't lecture him, and then actually have a good time.
Oh no not surprised, I agree though.
It just seems it would likely cause more trouble. Maybe, like Holler says, bring it up with the groom instead.
I'd be afraid douchebag McGee would just tell you to buzz off, but the groom might have more power.
It's shitty because this might cause some rifts on what should, otherwise be, a pretty happy day.
I hope it does work out because this is one of those damned if you do, you feel like absolute ass if you don't situations.
... I change my stance to at least bring it up to the bride and groom's attention. Don't make it a thing, just inform them both in private that the other groomsmen might offend someone at the wedding that's already struggling.
"Hey can I talk to you both in private really quick?" sort of things. Edit: then follow through with, "I don't like (dude)'s language in some of his speeches, is there anyway we can have a talk to him? I don't want anyone upset or ostracized on your wedding day, this is so all of us can get together and celebrate you as a couple."
Such a shitty situation, other people suck.
Reading other people's opinions on it has changed my mind a bit as well, I also think just bringing it up with the groom would probably be the best way to go, and then accepting whatever they want to do (including if what they want to do is nothing).
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"
See I worry about that aspect too.
Honestly, I think people are overly-worried about what the slur-using groomsman will do to the bride and groom over a "not cool, dude." The far more likely outcome is that the groomsman will make Botznoy his target. Unless he's a real piece of work, he won't see bride and groom as to blame for him being made momentarily uncomfortable by Botznoy's words, he'll blame Botznoy. And if he is the kind of person who unilaterally distributes blame, then like I said earlier there was absolutely going to be something that didn't go perfectly for him that he would have pinned on the bride and groom anyway, it was just a roll of the dice as to what that thing would be.
But fuck you — no, fuck y'all, that's as blunt as it gets"
- Kendrick Lamar, "The Blacker the Berry"