Blackhawk1313Demon Hunter for HireTime RiftRegistered Userregular
I don't know what to say Darth, the best I've got is there is nothing wrong with feeling that way. You can't put any of this on yourself at all. For all the good he may have been responsible toxic is still toxic and there is no overcoming that sometimes. Nor is you acknowledging that toxicity and regardless of your own transgressions it does not invalidate it. A spade is still a spade no matter who calls it that. Much love bro.
It's okay to recognize when a person's toxic, even if they're old and dying.
It's okay to not feel anything when a toxic person is sick and dying, as long as your recognize and respect the feelings of any people mourning the loss.
Which you are. You wrote yourself that he was your mother's guardian angel and protected her from a bunch of stuff. So you understand this is hard for her, which isn't even slightly surprising to me.
My mom is a fairly conservative looking middle aged woman in her late 50's. Fairly quiet, tries really hard to hold the family together and everything. When I started playing video games, she was deeply concerned about them. I had to spend years begging for a Pokemon cartridge and at first she only let me rent one. The first time I played it, she sat next to me and asked all kinds of questions to figure out if anything "bad" was happening and was deeply concerned it might be too violent or scary for 11 year old me.
Mom's gotten seriously into Pokemon Go. She got the game over a month after I did, and she's a level 28. Her pokemon are better than mine. She's in four gyms.
And yesterday, she growled "Fucker!" at a pidgey that escaped her pokeball and flipped it off.
My aunt reached out to me last year (or maybe even the year prior, now that it's 2017!) from my estranged father's side of the family. I've always really really liked her and she's always been great to me. She found my art-related email through my website and sent me a heartfelt "hope you're well" message. We ended up connecting on Facebook and she just sent me an old picture of me with one of her cats from way back in the day, and wished me a Happy New Year. I realized afterwards that I didn't have any feeling of my heart skipping a beat when I saw her message, which is great. I had that when she first contacted me awhile back because I wasn't sure if she was going to bring up my father or not....so I wasn't sure, before reading, if I had to classify her message in my head as "threatening and something you need to steel yourself against" beforehand.
Because she's been so nice and warm, I asked her if we could maybe catch up over the phone at some point. I'd like to hear how everybody on that side of the family is doing, and I feel like it's a safe enough thing to do. I probably wouldn't give her my number, and I'd call her while blocking my number (just in case...I really have to be insanely cautious about my number to prevent either of my parents having access to it).
I'm a little nervous, but it would be really great to reconnect with her. I miss her a lot.
I also sent a mass message to my much larger, extended family on my estranged mother's side, because I also would like to stay in contact with them somehow. I got some very nice messages back as well. It's hard because none of these people live especially close to me. The closest is a 4+ hour drive. The farthest is 2,500 miles away...so it's not too often that I get to see any of them, but it would be amazing if I could have SOME family in my life now and then, while not having to include my parents in that mix. I'm not entirely sure how it would (or will) go if one of these extended family members asks me about one or both of my parents, but I'm going to be very honest about it. I didn't have the confidence of self to defend my choices when I was younger, but I know now that keeping both of my parents out of my life is by far one of the healthiest things I've ever done for myself, and that is backed by a huge number of people, including therapists. So if anybody tries to tell me differently or shame me into trying to bring them back into my life, I'm going to hold nothing back in explaining how that would be a poisonous decision, and how they need to respect my choice. Because fuck it, I'm done! I'm SO FUCKING DONE with those abusive fucking people. The only way for me to continue to become a healthier person and live my life to the fullest is by keeping those assholes out of my life. So anybody who doesn't like it will just have to deal with it.
I never understood the whole "you must always keep a relationship with your parents" type thought.
If a person is toxic, they're toxic, doesn't matter if they were your best friend, or your parents, or your worst enemy, you cut them out of your life all the same.
It still sucks to read about that shit here, since family was kind of a big deal for me growing up and right now, and that a lot of you don't have that, and I wish others could have that.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I've decided to ask people a question if they tell me I need to keep a relationship with my parents. I'd ask, "What level of abuse crosses the line where you feel it would make sense for me to cut them out?"...I might follow that up by asking if they'd have to break a bone, if the abuse would have to happen more often than half the week, if I was raped, if I was punched in the face, if I was stabbed, if I was killed...etc. Because it puts the person in the very uncomfortable position of having to admit that yes, there is absolutely a line in their heads as to when abuse isn't okay, but there must also be some abuse before that line that they are suggesting "isn't bad enough". And getting the person to admit that they think SOME abuse should be "okay" will hopefully make them be a bit more introspective.
I might follow it up by asking, "if I had a boyfriend who publicly choked me and then blamed me for it, would you tell me to stay with him because 'he says he loves me'?" because that is the exact scenario my father put me through, and it would be pretty fucked up if the boyfriend scenario was "wrong" to them, but if a parent does it, it's suddenly something they think I should forgive.
I sometimes wonder if a lot of people rationalize abuse away as normal too, and then when someone like you is empowered to break the ties, they feel "cheated" I guess. It makes them internalize their own conflict that no matter what the abuse is, it wasn't okay but they somehow rationalized it as okay because, well, "it's my family and I have to love them".
My ex was like that, her mother was a narcissist (and emotionally manipulative) and her step father was physically abusive, yet she would always say "they're my family, I have to love them". It's like stockholms or something.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
It's deeply embedded in culture, too. A lot of people who have functioning families also don't seem to really understand what familial abuse is...they categorize it as "just the same old, normal family drama!". They'll say things like "oh, EVERY family fights" or "EVERY family has problems", or something along those lines. It's almost like they can't imagine a family member - from anybody's family - being dangerous. Because all those things you hear about on the news and see in documentaries are so separate from their own experience, they don't understand how commonplace that behavior might actually be in the world...or even, say, down the street from them.
there is a difference between arguing about trump at the dinner table and getting threatened with legal action or getting beat, you're right though, getting people to draw that line and understand where you drew yours is hard
people suck
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
It used to be "The blood of conflict is thicker than the water of the womb", i.e. your true companions are those you fight alongside in your life, not just the people who you are related to
Now it's "Blood is thicker than water" so everyone's all, "Ooo, blood relations are so important, friends come and go but family is forever"
Never feel bad for cutting toxic people out of your life, whether they had anything to do with your birth or not
On a slightly related note, it's surprising how much things change when you stop covering for relative's awfulness.
Right now, things are kind of sucky because my mom is staying in Susan's campus town while she does some sorority thing. (This ended up actually being important, because Susan's roommate just up and disappeared, without telling Susan anything, and because Susan's GPA took a huge hit when she had mono, she can only get into 1 sorority now and she is super stressed out about all this.)
Dad hates it when Mom's gone. For Reasons, he's taking it out on me. He hasn't been so much of a jerk that I'm packing my car and driving back to Champaign. But enough that I can't just make plans freely- I have to do it in a way that won't put Dad in a worse mood.
I was making plans last night, but Dad caught the later train and would have been walking in the door while I was out picking up a friend. Dad does not like coming home to an empty house. Dad does not like eating alone. Dad does not like it when guests show up while he's eating. I needed to push my plans back an hour, to keep things tolerable until Mom gets back.
Four years ago, I'd have either canceled my plans completely, claimed to suddenly be "busy," or made up some reason why I needed to wait an hour to get my friend. The other party was typically irritated with me afterwards, because it sounded like I was just being flaky or flat-out avoiding them.
This time, I explained what was going on. I didn't make any attempts to excuse my dad's behavior. I just explained what was going on. And I got sympathy.
I met my husband ages ago because his brother married my sister, OK
fast forward to now, they've split up for a variety of reasons
but my sister is bffs with my husband's sister so now my husband's sister is not speaking to my brother in law, it's been over a year and the only time she's said anything to him is this past Christmas and I'm actually not sure they exchanged words now that I think about it
anyway there's a birthday party tomorrow and I forgot there's apparently some crazy vendetta going on and I mentioned it in Christmas chat and my husband got a snarky message about how my brother in law isn't invited and that's why there's a secret chat (that I'm not in) to talk about this party
like for fuck's sake with this cloak and dagger shit
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
I met my husband ages ago because his brother married my sister, OK
fast forward to now, they've split up for a variety of reasons
but my sister is bffs with my husband's sister so now my husband's sister is not speaking to my brother in law, it's been over a year and the only time she's said anything to him is this past Christmas and I'm actually not sure they exchanged words now that I think about it
anyway there's a birthday party tomorrow and I forgot there's apparently some crazy vendetta going on and I mentioned it in Christmas chat and my husband got a snarky message about how my brother in law isn't invited and that's why there's a secret chat (that I'm not in) to talk about this party
like for fuck's sake with this cloak and dagger shit
Ok so just so I have this straight
Your sister and husband's brother married. Then they split up. But your sister and your husband's sister are now friends and your husband's sister took sides against her brother. Now that brother is shut out of family functions because of this petty bullshit?
knitdan on
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
I met my husband ages ago because his brother married my sister, OK
fast forward to now, they've split up for a variety of reasons
but my sister is bffs with my husband's sister so now my husband's sister is not speaking to my brother in law, it's been over a year and the only time she's said anything to him is this past Christmas and I'm actually not sure they exchanged words now that I think about it
anyway there's a birthday party tomorrow and I forgot there's apparently some crazy vendetta going on and I mentioned it in Christmas chat and my husband got a snarky message about how my brother in law isn't invited and that's why there's a secret chat (that I'm not in) to talk about this party
like for fuck's sake with this cloak and dagger shit
Ok so just so I have this straight
Your sister and husband's brother married. Then they split up. But your sister and your husband's sister are now friends and your husband's sister took sides against her brother. Now that brother is shut out of family functions because of this petty bullshit?
yup
it's extra awkward because we aren't speaking to my sister - she's super abusive, manipulative, and controlling - so by siding with her my sister in law has also sort of inadvertantly (or not? she knows why we don't talk) excluded us from events that she's been inviting my sister to, like this birthday party apparently
I met my husband ages ago because his brother married my sister, OK
fast forward to now, they've split up for a variety of reasons
but my sister is bffs with my husband's sister so now my husband's sister is not speaking to my brother in law, it's been over a year and the only time she's said anything to him is this past Christmas and I'm actually not sure they exchanged words now that I think about it
anyway there's a birthday party tomorrow and I forgot there's apparently some crazy vendetta going on and I mentioned it in Christmas chat and my husband got a snarky message about how my brother in law isn't invited and that's why there's a secret chat (that I'm not in) to talk about this party
like for fuck's sake with this cloak and dagger shit
This is like Survivor: The Home Game where the only winning move is to cattleprod them into therapy.
Puppy has an upset stomach and woke me up at 3am to poop. We knew he had an upset stomach and so left him an outside access point near where he sleeps, but apparently 3am puppy brain couldn't figure that one out, despite his usual Houdini tendencies.
Anyway while this is annoying, it did let me hear a giant 3am puppy shart, which was fairly impressive.
Puppy has an upset stomach and woke me up at 3am to poop. We knew he had an upset stomach and so left him an outside access point near where he sleeps, but apparently 3am puppy brain couldn't figure that one out, despite his usual Houdini tendencies.
Anyway while this is annoying, it did let me hear a giant 3am puppy shart, which was fairly impressive.
About fifteen years ago, my kid brothers got a black lab pupper for Christmas; she was the softest, sweetest little thing but we were worried about her fat little belly and whether or not to take her to the vet to see if she had some sort of blockage in her guts. Five hours after we discussed getting her to the vet, all of us are coming home from lunch and a movie to a house that ... well, it smelled pretty bad.
Puppers was happy and no longer bloated.
Both of my kid brothers threw up, my stepmom refused to go in the house, Dad tried to get me to handle it and all I could say was, "Your house, your dog, get to fucking work, I'm going to the bar."
Incidentally, this was the black lab that my stepmom wanted to call 'Tar Baby' and I had to explain to her in no uncertain terms that it wasn't a good thing to use Uncle Remus as a source for a dog's name.
Puppers ended up as 'Tinkerbell' because of her habit of pirouetting on her tippy-toes when she got excited.
My first dog apparently smelled awful, like all the time. And had a habit of intentionally farting in my sibling's faces during car rides. At least I think it was intentional. He never did it to me, almost like he knew I can't smell and wouldn't give him a reaction.
That, or he knew if my sibs complained enough, I'd pull him into my lap to keep him from grossing out anybody else.
I sometimes wonder if a lot of people rationalize abuse away as normal too, and then when someone like you is empowered to break the ties, they feel "cheated" I guess. It makes them internalize their own conflict that no matter what the abuse is, it wasn't okay but they somehow rationalized it as okay because, well, "it's my family and I have to love them".
My ex was like that, her mother was a narcissist (and emotionally manipulative) and her step father was physically abusive, yet she would always say "they're my family, I have to love them". It's like stockholms or something.
I always thought it wasn't so much Stockholm's as it was afraid to be alone. I'm very little to no contact with my parents but I went through a huge stage where I felt incredibly alone and the people that were supposed to be there for me, weren't. It's like a giant betrayal. I kept going back and forth but I was incredibly lost at the thought that "They were supposed to be there for me". I've seen it to where even when the signs of abuse are there and the most obvious thing is to keep moving forward and not look back, well some people don't know that there's a forward. In my experience, the younger the age the more prominent this mind set it. To some, the people that raised you are all there is.
I'm not advocating to stay with abusers (regardless of if they're your parents) but I realized that the reason I put up with so much was because I didn't know what came next or who to go to when I needed help. That fear was enough for me to put up with a lot of stuff before I finally moved forward with my life. Thought I'd offer some perspective but I can't imagine being the only person who has ever felt this way.
It's sad but it also isn't a huge shock. She's been in a nursing home for about a year now, for the last half a year she's been sleeping for 24 hours a day minus the 30-40 minutes it took to feed her, and the last few months she didn't even wake up to be fed. Two days ago she stopped eating and drinking as well, and they couldn't force her because she doesn't have a gag reflex anymore and would choke I think? That was at least the general description I was told.
She managed to make it to I think 94 or 95 years, and was able to live at home up until about a year ago. She was one of the first women in the province to go to school, and she and my grandfather were drastically out of the norm in that she was the primary breadwinner (as a teacher), while my grandfather stayed home tending their small farm and looking after the kids.
Amazing cook, very loving grandmother, going to miss her
I sometimes wonder if a lot of people rationalize abuse away as normal too, and then when someone like you is empowered to break the ties, they feel "cheated" I guess. It makes them internalize their own conflict that no matter what the abuse is, it wasn't okay but they somehow rationalized it as okay because, well, "it's my family and I have to love them".
My ex was like that, her mother was a narcissist (and emotionally manipulative) and her step father was physically abusive, yet she would always say "they're my family, I have to love them". It's like stockholms or something.
I always thought it wasn't so much Stockholm's as it was afraid to be alone. I'm very little to no contact with my parents but I went through a huge stage where I felt incredibly alone and the people that were supposed to be there for me, weren't. It's like a giant betrayal. I kept going back and forth but I was incredibly lost at the thought that "They were supposed to be there for me". I've seen it to where even when the signs of abuse are there and the most obvious thing is to keep moving forward and not look back, well some people don't know that there's a forward. In my experience, the younger the age the more prominent this mind set it. To some, the people that raised you are all there is.
I'm not advocating to stay with abusers (regardless of if they're your parents) but I realized that the reason I put up with so much was because I didn't know what came next or who to go to when I needed help. That fear was enough for me to put up with a lot of stuff before I finally moved forward with my life. Thought I'd offer some perspective but I can't imagine being the only person who has ever felt this way.
If you do reconnect with abusive or narcissistic parents, though, treat them like you would any other acquaintance you don't want to get too involved in.
"Oh I'm an awful child? Oh well, must suck to be you."
It's the same way you defeat most bullies, don't give into their shit, don't let it bother you, and pretend like nothing they say matters, because it really doesn't. Sticks and stones, and all that.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I sometimes wonder if a lot of people rationalize abuse away as normal too, and then when someone like you is empowered to break the ties, they feel "cheated" I guess. It makes them internalize their own conflict that no matter what the abuse is, it wasn't okay but they somehow rationalized it as okay because, well, "it's my family and I have to love them".
My ex was like that, her mother was a narcissist (and emotionally manipulative) and her step father was physically abusive, yet she would always say "they're my family, I have to love them". It's like stockholms or something.
I always thought it wasn't so much Stockholm's as it was afraid to be alone. I'm very little to no contact with my parents but I went through a huge stage where I felt incredibly alone and the people that were supposed to be there for me, weren't. It's like a giant betrayal. I kept going back and forth but I was incredibly lost at the thought that "They were supposed to be there for me". I've seen it to where even when the signs of abuse are there and the most obvious thing is to keep moving forward and not look back, well some people don't know that there's a forward. In my experience, the younger the age the more prominent this mind set it. To some, the people that raised you are all there is.
I'm not advocating to stay with abusers (regardless of if they're your parents) but I realized that the reason I put up with so much was because I didn't know what came next or who to go to when I needed help. That fear was enough for me to put up with a lot of stuff before I finally moved forward with my life. Thought I'd offer some perspective but I can't imagine being the only person who has ever felt this way.
If you do reconnect with abusive or narcissistic parents, though, treat them like you would any other acquaintance you don't want to get too involved in.
"Oh I'm an awful child? Oh well, must suck to be you."
It's the same way you defeat most bullies, don't give into their shit, don't let it bother you, and pretend like nothing they say matters, because it really doesn't. Sticks and stones, and all that.
Sometimes this works, but I want to add a caveat that there's a certain class of toxic people that will interpret that as the initiation of a power struggle. So ignoring the bully/abuser will just result in them escalating infinitely in the search for a reaction.
With that class of toxic, the healthiest options are to either permanently cut contact (being prepared to enforce that legally,) or to end the cycle of endless escalation by reacting immediately in a way they don't want.
I realize this isn't a super popular approach, but at this point I'm pretty sure that's only because Infinite Escalators are fairly rare and often mistaken for your average bully pulling an extinction burst. But the Infinite Escalator's extinction burst never ends.
An Infinate Escalator is energized by the hunt for a reaction, while you are worn down by their behavior. Eventually, you will react, because they can continue the fight for years. Probably the way they want, teaching them if they push hard enough they get what you want. An immediate, but undesired reaction ends the escalation cycle and forces the toxic to try something else. Basically it saves a lot of time and stress, which is why I consider it the best course of action if you can't cut contact.
Sometimes this works, but I want to add a caveat that there's a certain class of toxic people that will interpret that as the initiation of a power struggle. So ignoring the bully/abuser will just result in them escalating infinitely in the search for a reaction.
With that class of toxic, the healthiest options are to either permanently cut contact (being prepared to enforce that legally,) or to end the cycle of endless escalation by reacting immediately in a way they don't want.
I realize this isn't a super popular approach, but at this point I'm pretty sure that's only because Infinite Escalators are fairly rare and often mistaken for your average bully pulling an extinction burst. But the Infinite Escalator's extinction burst never ends.
An Infinate Escalator is energized by the hunt for a reaction, while you are worn down by their behavior. Eventually, you will react, because they can continue the fight for years. Probably the way they want, teaching them if they push hard enough they get what you want. An immediate, but undesired reaction ends the escalation cycle and forces the toxic to try something else. Basically it saves a lot of time and stress, which is why I consider it the best course of action if you can't cut contact.
[furiously mashes "Agree" button]
It can be extremely easy for somebody to unknowingly fall back into the narcissist's many traps unless they're able to build and maintain in the moment a 5-foot-thick barrier of solid lead between them and the abuser. The abused is often "trained" for years that their opinions are wrong, their perceptions are incorrect, that their memories are imagined, etc. Ultimately, the purpose is to wear down the abused so they can no longer trust their own perceptions of reality, and can be "molded" into the obedient person the narcissist requires.
Distance from the abuser is sometimes (often!?) the best and only way to truly begin to heal from it.
It sounds super easy to just let everything pass over you because "it's only words, right?" Words can be dangerous. Words coming out of an abuser's mouth - an abuser who knows and understands how to manipulate their target, having done so for many years prior - can be especially dangerous and extremely hard to ignore or not take to heart. The abused also may not understand where the line is drawn between "healthy interactions" and "abusive interactions" or manipulative comments. It can be very, very subtle...until it builds in the background into an extremely crushing and oppressive weight.
Oh yeah absolutely, if you even want to reconnect you have to be super careful. I just can't fathom family members acting like that, it's so alien to me. But I realize I'm incredibly lucky there. Aside from my brothers being nutjobs in re: politics, my family is pretty on the level, and it's still shocking to me reading all these stories. Especially since these are supposed to be your kids and siblings.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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MariisunIn the plains of NefirRegistered Userregular
Oh yeah absolutely, if you even want to reconnect you have to be super careful. I just can't fathom family members acting like that, it's so alien to me. But I realize I'm incredibly lucky there. Aside from my brothers being nutjobs in re: politics, my family is pretty on the level, and it's still shocking to me reading all these stories. Especially since these are supposed to be your kids and siblings.
visit /r/raisedbynarcissists on reddit and you can see what real crazy looks like. As @Creagan mentioned before, Unfortunately just ignoring people sometimes isn't enough. @NightDragon Sometimes it's not just words, and sometimes it's not words being said to you. I've read about Narcissist family that have gone above and beyond to destroy their children's lives because it's another way to continue abuse. Calling jobs and spreading rumors, for some abusers it's not just words but actions and even violence.
@NightDragon Sometimes it's not just words, and sometimes it's not words being said to you. I've read about Narcissist family that have gone above and beyond to destroy their children's lives because it's another way to continue abuse. Calling jobs and spreading rumors, for some abusers it's not just words but actions and even violence.
Oh I'm (unfortunately) very much aware! My mother is an abusive narcissist.
Oh yeah absolutely, if you even want to reconnect you have to be super careful. I just can't fathom family members acting like that, it's so alien to me. But I realize I'm incredibly lucky there. Aside from my brothers being nutjobs in re: politics, my family is pretty on the level, and it's still shocking to me reading all these stories. Especially since these are supposed to be your kids and siblings.
visit /r/raisedbynarcissists on reddit and you can see what real crazy looks like. As @Creagan mentioned before, Unfortunately just ignoring people sometimes isn't enough. @NightDragon Sometimes it's not just words, and sometimes it's not words being said to you. I've read about Narcissist family that have gone above and beyond to destroy their children's lives because it's another way to continue abuse. Calling jobs and spreading rumors, for some abusers it's not just words but actions and even violence.
My sisters actually act closer to the Mother In Laws on the JustNoMIL sub than the sisters on RBN.
I get a lot of flack from other people for responding to things more than I should, or occasionally opting to behave in a way that looks like I'm playing the game. But I'm not in a position to cut my sisters and father out of my life. Not if I want to see my mom on holidays. (She'd support me, but also wouldn't refuse to let my sisters come home over Christmas. And at this point I don't believe she and Dad are going to get a divorce.)
And ignoring my family members just doesn't work. Ignoring = starting a power struggle. Silence = agreement. If you aren't complaining, you are enjoying yourself. If you have a medical condition and don't remind people about it, you're actually fine. If you fail to correct somebody who said something incorrect, you're letting them embarrass yourself.
Responding when you can, in a way the toxic doesn't want, is frequently safer. Argue with the insults. Call out the behavior. Disagree when people are wrong. Whatever you can comfortably do.
Oh yeah absolutely, if you even want to reconnect you have to be super careful. I just can't fathom family members acting like that, it's so alien to me. But I realize I'm incredibly lucky there. Aside from my brothers being nutjobs in re: politics, my family is pretty on the level, and it's still shocking to me reading all these stories. Especially since these are supposed to be your kids and siblings.
visit /r/raisedbynarcissists on reddit and you can see what real crazy looks like. As @Creagan mentioned before, Unfortunately just ignoring people sometimes isn't enough. @NightDragon Sometimes it's not just words, and sometimes it's not words being said to you. I've read about Narcissist family that have gone above and beyond to destroy their children's lives because it's another way to continue abuse. Calling jobs and spreading rumors, for some abusers it's not just words but actions and even violence.
My sisters actually act closer to the Mother In Laws on the JustNoMIL sub than the sisters on RBN.
I get a lot of flack from other people for responding to things more than I should, or occasionally opting to behave in a way that looks like I'm playing the game. But I'm not in a position to cut my sisters and father out of my life. Not if I want to see my mom on holidays. (She'd support me, but also wouldn't refuse to let my sisters come home over Christmas. And at this point I don't believe she and Dad are going to get a divorce.)
And ignoring my family members just doesn't work. Ignoring = starting a power struggle. Silence = agreement. If you aren't complaining, you are enjoying yourself. If you have a medical condition and don't remind people about it, you're actually fine. If you fail to correct somebody who said something incorrect, you're letting them embarrass yourself.
Responding when you can, in a way the toxic doesn't want, is frequently safer.
I'm still learning the art of low-contact. It's a balance for everyone. I'm just now getting passed the point where I resent them, and for me that's huge! I hope you all find your own form of freedom. @NightDragon I'm sorry. I've found that finding family and making family outside of my biological family has been better for me. If you ever need a listening ear (Even though I'm a stranger) I'm all ears
I'm still learning the art of low-contact. It's a balance for everyone. I'm just now getting passed the point where I resent them, and for me that's huge! I hope you all find your own form of freedom. @NightDragon I'm sorry. I've found that finding family and making family outside of my biological family has been better for me. If you ever need a listening ear (Even though I'm a stranger) I'm all ears
Thank you, I appreciate it! And making up my own family outside of my immediate family is definitely something that I've been working on as well. Surrounding myself with friends and people I trust (and as many friends' dogs as possible) has been great.
Oh yeah absolutely, if you even want to reconnect you have to be super careful. I just can't fathom family members acting like that, it's so alien to me. But I realize I'm incredibly lucky there. Aside from my brothers being nutjobs in re: politics, my family is pretty on the level, and it's still shocking to me reading all these stories. Especially since these are supposed to be your kids and siblings.
visit /r/raisedbynarcissists on reddit and you can see what real crazy looks like. As @ Creagan mentioned before, Unfortunately just ignoring people sometimes isn't enough. @ NightDragon Sometimes it's not just words, and sometimes it's not words being said to you. I've read about Narcissist family that have gone above and beyond to destroy their children's lives because it's another way to continue abuse. Calling jobs and spreading rumors, for some abusers it's not just words but actions and even violence.
Oh yeah one of my favorite subs. Those stories. Jesus christ.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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MalReynoldsThe Hunter S Thompson of incredibly mild medicinesRegistered Userregular
edited January 2017
Story time!
Spoilered for language/DC March
My youngest sister went to the Women's March in DC this weekend. She was thrilled, overjoyed, ecstatic; she also still lives with Rita, our Mom, who is a staunch conservative. Rita has also been pretty emotionally abusive/manipulative to all her children throughout our lives - when she and my Dad seperated, she made it sound like it would be a nightmare living with him, that we would have to change school districts, but if we lived with her we got to keep the same friends. Also, whenever he would call we would end the call with, "Love you, Dad!" but as soon as we hung up, she forced us to say we, "But we love you more." One time, my other sister didn't get a role in a high school play and was crying quietly in her room when in bursts Rita, telling my other sister that our dog Maggie had died. She let my sister cry over that for a few minutes before breaking the news that Maggie isn't dead, but there are 'more important things in life to be worried about.' One time when I was eight, I had the hiccups and it annoyed her so she pretended our house was being broken in to and that she had been shot. Got rid of the hiccups.
Anyway.
She's not great.
So, my youngest sister posted on FaceBook 'The pussy grabs back!' and it received a ton of positive attention. Except from Rita, who went on her own FaceBook page to apologize for my sister's bad language. They then got into a very public fight, which ended with Rita draining my sister's savings account, stealing her stash, and my sister unfriending Rita.
Rita's reaction was to tell my youngest sister that she was going to take her whole bottle of Ambien if she didn't take the status down.
I get a call from my sister in tears, because she's stuck on a train that's literally going nowhere and she doesn't know what to do because Rita is threatening to kill herself and she won't answer any calls from me, my other sister, or my brother.
I call her about four times in a row until she finally messages me, "I'm fine."
We enter into a polite discourse; she asks me not to send poison control, because she was just bluffing with my sister so that my sister would take the word pussy off Facebook. I tell Rita that that's kind of unacceptable and that my sister has been crying and vomiting thinking that she'd taken a bottle of pills.
'She's on her period. She always cries when she's on her period.'
I then very politely ask her to never, ever threaten suicide, that some of us take it quite personally - I'm two days out from the four year anniversary of my ex-fiance killing herself - and she sends me the FaceBook Thumbs Up.
I unfriended her.
What a fucking monster.
Edit: that was on Saturday. I haven't really been able to sleep due to the anniversary of my ex coming up, which always stresses me out every year, and now I'm having recurring nightmares where I have to plan Rita's funeral.
I'm so very pissed.
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My youngest sister went to the Women's March in DC this weekend. She was thrilled, overjoyed, ecstatic; she also still lives with Rita, our Mom, who is a staunch conservative. Rita has also been pretty emotionally abusive/manipulative to all her children throughout our lives - when she and my Dad seperated, she made it sound like it would be a nightmare living with him, that we would have to change school districts, but if we lived with her we got to keep the same friends. Also, whenever he would call we would end the call with, "Love you, Dad!" but as soon as we hung up, she forced us to say we, "But we love you more." One time, my other sister didn't get a role in a high school play and was crying quietly in her room when in bursts Rita, telling my other sister that our dog Maggie had died. She let my sister cry over that for a few minutes before breaking the news that Maggie isn't dead, but there are 'more important things in life to be worried about.' One time when I was eight, I had the hiccups and it annoyed her so she pretended our house was being broken in to and that she had been shot. Got rid of the hiccups.
Anyway.
She's not great.
So, my youngest sister posted on FaceBook 'The pussy grabs back!' and it received a ton of positive attention. Except from Rita, who went on her own FaceBook page to apologize for my sister's bad language. They then got into a very public fight, which ended with Rita draining my sister's savings account, stealing her stash, and my sister unfriending Rita.
Rita's reaction was to tell my youngest sister that she was going to take her whole bottle of Ambien if she didn't take the status down.
I get a call from my sister in tears, because she's stuck on a train that's literally going nowhere and she doesn't know what to do because Rita is threatening to kill herself and she won't answer any calls from me, my other sister, or my brother.
I call her about four times in a row until she finally messages me, "I'm fine."
We enter into a polite discourse; she asks me not to send poison control, because she was just bluffing with my sister so that my sister would take the word pussy off Facebook. I tell Rita that that's kind of unacceptable and that my sister has been crying and vomiting thinking that she'd taken a bottle of pills.
'She's on her period. She always cries when she's on her period.'
I then very politely ask her to never, ever threaten suicide, that some of us take it quite personally - I'm two days out from the four year anniversary of my ex-fiance killing herself - and she sends me the FaceBook Thumbs Up.
I unfriended her.
What a fucking monster.
Edit: that was on Saturday. I haven't really been able to sleep due to the anniversary of my ex coming up, which always stresses me out every year, and now I'm having recurring nightmares where I have to plan Rita's funeral.
I'm so very pissed.
Next time call the police and show them screenshits of the messages. Your mother won't stop unlesd there are consequences.
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It's okay to not feel anything when a toxic person is sick and dying, as long as your recognize and respect the feelings of any people mourning the loss.
Which you are. You wrote yourself that he was your mother's guardian angel and protected her from a bunch of stuff. So you understand this is hard for her, which isn't even slightly surprising to me.
Mom's gotten seriously into Pokemon Go. She got the game over a month after I did, and she's a level 28. Her pokemon are better than mine. She's in four gyms.
And yesterday, she growled "Fucker!" at a pidgey that escaped her pokeball and flipped it off.
Guess who's going to try to introduce the term 'senpai' to their little three year old first cousin, once removed?
Ain't I a stinker?
Because she's been so nice and warm, I asked her if we could maybe catch up over the phone at some point. I'd like to hear how everybody on that side of the family is doing, and I feel like it's a safe enough thing to do. I probably wouldn't give her my number, and I'd call her while blocking my number (just in case...I really have to be insanely cautious about my number to prevent either of my parents having access to it).
I'm a little nervous, but it would be really great to reconnect with her. I miss her a lot.
I also sent a mass message to my much larger, extended family on my estranged mother's side, because I also would like to stay in contact with them somehow. I got some very nice messages back as well. It's hard because none of these people live especially close to me. The closest is a 4+ hour drive. The farthest is 2,500 miles away...so it's not too often that I get to see any of them, but it would be amazing if I could have SOME family in my life now and then, while not having to include my parents in that mix. I'm not entirely sure how it would (or will) go if one of these extended family members asks me about one or both of my parents, but I'm going to be very honest about it. I didn't have the confidence of self to defend my choices when I was younger, but I know now that keeping both of my parents out of my life is by far one of the healthiest things I've ever done for myself, and that is backed by a huge number of people, including therapists. So if anybody tries to tell me differently or shame me into trying to bring them back into my life, I'm going to hold nothing back in explaining how that would be a poisonous decision, and how they need to respect my choice. Because fuck it, I'm done! I'm SO FUCKING DONE with those abusive fucking people. The only way for me to continue to become a healthier person and live my life to the fullest is by keeping those assholes out of my life. So anybody who doesn't like it will just have to deal with it.
If a person is toxic, they're toxic, doesn't matter if they were your best friend, or your parents, or your worst enemy, you cut them out of your life all the same.
It still sucks to read about that shit here, since family was kind of a big deal for me growing up and right now, and that a lot of you don't have that, and I wish others could have that.
I might follow it up by asking, "if I had a boyfriend who publicly choked me and then blamed me for it, would you tell me to stay with him because 'he says he loves me'?" because that is the exact scenario my father put me through, and it would be pretty fucked up if the boyfriend scenario was "wrong" to them, but if a parent does it, it's suddenly something they think I should forgive.
My ex was like that, her mother was a narcissist (and emotionally manipulative) and her step father was physically abusive, yet she would always say "they're my family, I have to love them". It's like stockholms or something.
people suck
It used to be "The blood of conflict is thicker than the water of the womb", i.e. your true companions are those you fight alongside in your life, not just the people who you are related to
Now it's "Blood is thicker than water" so everyone's all, "Ooo, blood relations are so important, friends come and go but family is forever"
Never feel bad for cutting toxic people out of your life, whether they had anything to do with your birth or not
Right now, things are kind of sucky because my mom is staying in Susan's campus town while she does some sorority thing. (This ended up actually being important, because Susan's roommate just up and disappeared, without telling Susan anything, and because Susan's GPA took a huge hit when she had mono, she can only get into 1 sorority now and she is super stressed out about all this.)
Dad hates it when Mom's gone. For Reasons, he's taking it out on me. He hasn't been so much of a jerk that I'm packing my car and driving back to Champaign. But enough that I can't just make plans freely- I have to do it in a way that won't put Dad in a worse mood.
I was making plans last night, but Dad caught the later train and would have been walking in the door while I was out picking up a friend. Dad does not like coming home to an empty house. Dad does not like eating alone. Dad does not like it when guests show up while he's eating. I needed to push my plans back an hour, to keep things tolerable until Mom gets back.
Four years ago, I'd have either canceled my plans completely, claimed to suddenly be "busy," or made up some reason why I needed to wait an hour to get my friend. The other party was typically irritated with me afterwards, because it sounded like I was just being flaky or flat-out avoiding them.
This time, I explained what was going on. I didn't make any attempts to excuse my dad's behavior. I just explained what was going on. And I got sympathy.
I met my husband ages ago because his brother married my sister, OK
fast forward to now, they've split up for a variety of reasons
but my sister is bffs with my husband's sister so now my husband's sister is not speaking to my brother in law, it's been over a year and the only time she's said anything to him is this past Christmas and I'm actually not sure they exchanged words now that I think about it
anyway there's a birthday party tomorrow and I forgot there's apparently some crazy vendetta going on and I mentioned it in Christmas chat and my husband got a snarky message about how my brother in law isn't invited and that's why there's a secret chat (that I'm not in) to talk about this party
like for fuck's sake with this cloak and dagger shit
Ok so just so I have this straight
Your sister and husband's brother married. Then they split up. But your sister and your husband's sister are now friends and your husband's sister took sides against her brother. Now that brother is shut out of family functions because of this petty bullshit?
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
yup
it's extra awkward because we aren't speaking to my sister - she's super abusive, manipulative, and controlling - so by siding with her my sister in law has also sort of inadvertantly (or not? she knows why we don't talk) excluded us from events that she's been inviting my sister to, like this birthday party apparently
This is like Survivor: The Home Game where the only winning move is to cattleprod them into therapy.
Anyway while this is annoying, it did let me hear a giant 3am puppy shart, which was fairly impressive.
About fifteen years ago, my kid brothers got a black lab pupper for Christmas; she was the softest, sweetest little thing but we were worried about her fat little belly and whether or not to take her to the vet to see if she had some sort of blockage in her guts. Five hours after we discussed getting her to the vet, all of us are coming home from lunch and a movie to a house that ... well, it smelled pretty bad.
Puppers was happy and no longer bloated.
Both of my kid brothers threw up, my stepmom refused to go in the house, Dad tried to get me to handle it and all I could say was, "Your house, your dog, get to fucking work, I'm going to the bar."
Incidentally, this was the black lab that my stepmom wanted to call 'Tar Baby' and I had to explain to her in no uncertain terms that it wasn't a good thing to use Uncle Remus as a source for a dog's name.
Puppers ended up as 'Tinkerbell' because of her habit of pirouetting on her tippy-toes when she got excited.
our vet suggested we go back to feeding Kanji fish oil but said that "farting like death" is just an inevitable side effect
it was a great comfort to young me
That, or he knew if my sibs complained enough, I'd pull him into my lap to keep him from grossing out anybody else.
I always thought it wasn't so much Stockholm's as it was afraid to be alone. I'm very little to no contact with my parents but I went through a huge stage where I felt incredibly alone and the people that were supposed to be there for me, weren't. It's like a giant betrayal. I kept going back and forth but I was incredibly lost at the thought that "They were supposed to be there for me". I've seen it to where even when the signs of abuse are there and the most obvious thing is to keep moving forward and not look back, well some people don't know that there's a forward. In my experience, the younger the age the more prominent this mind set it. To some, the people that raised you are all there is.
I'm not advocating to stay with abusers (regardless of if they're your parents) but I realized that the reason I put up with so much was because I didn't know what came next or who to go to when I needed help. That fear was enough for me to put up with a lot of stuff before I finally moved forward with my life. Thought I'd offer some perspective but I can't imagine being the only person who has ever felt this way.
It's sad but it also isn't a huge shock. She's been in a nursing home for about a year now, for the last half a year she's been sleeping for 24 hours a day minus the 30-40 minutes it took to feed her, and the last few months she didn't even wake up to be fed. Two days ago she stopped eating and drinking as well, and they couldn't force her because she doesn't have a gag reflex anymore and would choke I think? That was at least the general description I was told.
She managed to make it to I think 94 or 95 years, and was able to live at home up until about a year ago. She was one of the first women in the province to go to school, and she and my grandfather were drastically out of the norm in that she was the primary breadwinner (as a teacher), while my grandfather stayed home tending their small farm and looking after the kids.
Amazing cook, very loving grandmother, going to miss her
If you do reconnect with abusive or narcissistic parents, though, treat them like you would any other acquaintance you don't want to get too involved in.
"Oh I'm an awful child? Oh well, must suck to be you."
It's the same way you defeat most bullies, don't give into their shit, don't let it bother you, and pretend like nothing they say matters, because it really doesn't. Sticks and stones, and all that.
Sometimes this works, but I want to add a caveat that there's a certain class of toxic people that will interpret that as the initiation of a power struggle. So ignoring the bully/abuser will just result in them escalating infinitely in the search for a reaction.
With that class of toxic, the healthiest options are to either permanently cut contact (being prepared to enforce that legally,) or to end the cycle of endless escalation by reacting immediately in a way they don't want.
I realize this isn't a super popular approach, but at this point I'm pretty sure that's only because Infinite Escalators are fairly rare and often mistaken for your average bully pulling an extinction burst. But the Infinite Escalator's extinction burst never ends.
An Infinate Escalator is energized by the hunt for a reaction, while you are worn down by their behavior. Eventually, you will react, because they can continue the fight for years. Probably the way they want, teaching them if they push hard enough they get what you want. An immediate, but undesired reaction ends the escalation cycle and forces the toxic to try something else. Basically it saves a lot of time and stress, which is why I consider it the best course of action if you can't cut contact.
[furiously mashes "Agree" button]
It can be extremely easy for somebody to unknowingly fall back into the narcissist's many traps unless they're able to build and maintain in the moment a 5-foot-thick barrier of solid lead between them and the abuser. The abused is often "trained" for years that their opinions are wrong, their perceptions are incorrect, that their memories are imagined, etc. Ultimately, the purpose is to wear down the abused so they can no longer trust their own perceptions of reality, and can be "molded" into the obedient person the narcissist requires.
Distance from the abuser is sometimes (often!?) the best and only way to truly begin to heal from it.
It sounds super easy to just let everything pass over you because "it's only words, right?" Words can be dangerous. Words coming out of an abuser's mouth - an abuser who knows and understands how to manipulate their target, having done so for many years prior - can be especially dangerous and extremely hard to ignore or not take to heart. The abused also may not understand where the line is drawn between "healthy interactions" and "abusive interactions" or manipulative comments. It can be very, very subtle...until it builds in the background into an extremely crushing and oppressive weight.
visit /r/raisedbynarcissists on reddit and you can see what real crazy looks like. As @Creagan mentioned before, Unfortunately just ignoring people sometimes isn't enough. @NightDragon Sometimes it's not just words, and sometimes it's not words being said to you. I've read about Narcissist family that have gone above and beyond to destroy their children's lives because it's another way to continue abuse. Calling jobs and spreading rumors, for some abusers it's not just words but actions and even violence.
Oh I'm (unfortunately) very much aware! My mother is an abusive narcissist.
My sisters actually act closer to the Mother In Laws on the JustNoMIL sub than the sisters on RBN.
I get a lot of flack from other people for responding to things more than I should, or occasionally opting to behave in a way that looks like I'm playing the game. But I'm not in a position to cut my sisters and father out of my life. Not if I want to see my mom on holidays. (She'd support me, but also wouldn't refuse to let my sisters come home over Christmas. And at this point I don't believe she and Dad are going to get a divorce.)
And ignoring my family members just doesn't work. Ignoring = starting a power struggle. Silence = agreement. If you aren't complaining, you are enjoying yourself. If you have a medical condition and don't remind people about it, you're actually fine. If you fail to correct somebody who said something incorrect, you're letting them embarrass yourself.
Responding when you can, in a way the toxic doesn't want, is frequently safer. Argue with the insults. Call out the behavior. Disagree when people are wrong. Whatever you can comfortably do.
I'm still learning the art of low-contact. It's a balance for everyone. I'm just now getting passed the point where I resent them, and for me that's huge! I hope you all find your own form of freedom. @NightDragon I'm sorry. I've found that finding family and making family outside of my biological family has been better for me. If you ever need a listening ear (Even though I'm a stranger) I'm all ears
Thank you, I appreciate it! And making up my own family outside of my immediate family is definitely something that I've been working on as well. Surrounding myself with friends and people I trust (and as many friends' dogs as possible) has been great.
My parents decided to use their usual argumentative attitude with eachother.
Just tried my best to shield my kid.
I mean, not a huge deal, but just so tired of it. Have watched it for 37 years now.
My mom has seemed to take her place as part time antagonizer but that doesn't mean I don't know why she wants to get back at him. But i'm so tired.
I just want to be away from their fucked up life and reasoning.
Oh yeah one of my favorite subs. Those stories. Jesus christ.
Spoilered for language/DC March
Anyway.
She's not great.
So, my youngest sister posted on FaceBook 'The pussy grabs back!' and it received a ton of positive attention. Except from Rita, who went on her own FaceBook page to apologize for my sister's bad language. They then got into a very public fight, which ended with Rita draining my sister's savings account, stealing her stash, and my sister unfriending Rita.
Rita's reaction was to tell my youngest sister that she was going to take her whole bottle of Ambien if she didn't take the status down.
I get a call from my sister in tears, because she's stuck on a train that's literally going nowhere and she doesn't know what to do because Rita is threatening to kill herself and she won't answer any calls from me, my other sister, or my brother.
I call her about four times in a row until she finally messages me, "I'm fine."
We enter into a polite discourse; she asks me not to send poison control, because she was just bluffing with my sister so that my sister would take the word pussy off Facebook. I tell Rita that that's kind of unacceptable and that my sister has been crying and vomiting thinking that she'd taken a bottle of pills.
'She's on her period. She always cries when she's on her period.'
I then very politely ask her to never, ever threaten suicide, that some of us take it quite personally - I'm two days out from the four year anniversary of my ex-fiance killing herself - and she sends me the FaceBook Thumbs Up.
I unfriended her.
What a fucking monster.
Edit: that was on Saturday. I haven't really been able to sleep due to the anniversary of my ex coming up, which always stresses me out every year, and now I'm having recurring nightmares where I have to plan Rita's funeral.
I'm so very pissed.
"Readers who prefer tension and romance, Maledictions: The Offering, delivers... As serious YA fiction, I’ll give it five stars out of five. As a novel? Four and a half." - Liz Ellor
My new novel: Maledictions: The Offering. Now in Paperback!
Next time call the police and show them screenshits of the messages. Your mother won't stop unlesd there are consequences.