Issue fatigue is overshadowed by "oppression fatigue"?
What does that even mean?
That's why I put it in quotes! I really don't know how to state it properly in a context that compares/contrasts the two, and I apologize.
A black person, even a successful black person, in the US is presented EVERY day of his life that he is black, that he will have to endure the stereotypes of being black in his daily interactions. He has no choice in the matter. When you are minority, you get tired of being in that minority because it means that you have to live every day under those conditions.
With issue fatigue, it's basically "I'm just tired of having this same-sex marriage/racial inquality/1% Occupy shit thrown in my face all the time!", in my mind. They are tired of discussing it, but they have the power to NOT discuss it if they wish. There's a huge difference there, in my mind. If someone doesn't want all that gay shit thrown in their face, they could, you know, just turn off the news from time to time. They don't have to deal with cultural stereotypes of being gay because hey, they're not gay! No one is treating them as gay! Or black or female, etc.
I'm just saying that the comparison of the two is kind of absurd because issue fatigue is not somebody suffering because they don't want all that gay shit thrown in their face
it just describes something that works against getting support for an issue. Saying "get over it" is just really weird for that reason.
What you describe is probably one definition of issue fatigue, I acknowledge, and the definition of issue fatigue used by my circle of peers IRL (what I am describing) is probably a different definition entirely. Which is probably where our disconnect lies. My coworkers use the phrase "issue fatigue" with regards to social issues in the manner that I described "I'm tired of all these gay rights activists bringing up gay this, and gay that". Etc.
I don't mind being wrong about things! I think I achieved a better understanding of your point.
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Blameless Cleric An angel made of sapphires each more flawlessly cut than the last Registered Userregular
if you don't understand or appreciate the value of humanities stuff then, that's correct, it literally has no value to you
like there's no reason you shouldn't just ignore it forever
but people sort of conflate that with "this has no value, objectively"? like the kind of value critical theory has is invisible to a lot of people and has no claim on those people's time or attention and that's all fine, it's cool for people not to care about things, but then they arrive at this idea where that value doesn't exist and anyone who says it exists for them is lying and they should shut up and it should all be abolished
and then the humanities start trying to counter this by claiming they do have objective value and waving around their marxism and it all becomes an enormous headache
Well, for my part it is due to the clash of analytic and continental philosophy and its bastard children.
The latter, of which critical theory is a part, is amongst other things anti-rational, and thus, nonsense.
There is legitimately academically beef between the disciplines, they cannot both be right.
fair enough
i definitely used to be a True Believer in analytic philosophy and then started trying to do literary criticism and came to the conclusion that it was actually of very limited utility and once you strained most of the crap out of Foucault & co. they were much better for most practical purposes
but since i used to be a True Believer in analytic philosophy it makes sense to me that your immediate response to that is along the lines of "hahaha fuck off"
That IS my response!
But really, analytic philosophy isn't a tool for literary criticism, unless you're entirely unclear about what a sentence actually says it's not going to cut a lot of ice.
On the other hand, critical theory pretends to be a lot more than a framework to understand literature and art (specifically in that it contends to illustrate the unacknowledged power plays within all manner of things in a subversive and revolutionary way and the contention that 'everything is a text').
In addition to which, this has hallmarks of "something must be done, this is something, therefore this must be done". Which is to say that it is perfectly plausible to me that neither are useful or informative a ways to understand art and literature,
there are a lot of bros who think that, but it is a subset
not all analysis is foucauldian analysis etc
im not willing to place the whole project in the dumpster because it has a stupid end
analytic philosophy has the philosophy of consciousness as its useless rump
I ...don't know what you are saying here.
you are focusing on the silly things in the field and ignoring the things that are valuable
#notalldiscourses
I disagree. That is a very odd interpretation of my post.
Yes, you think you are justifiably rejecting the entire body of work because it is all inherently flawed and there is no actual value, I know
well, yes.
But that doesn't make yours or scheck's posts any clearer.
Wait, I think I get it.
And it is based on miscomprehension of which you spoke earlier.
Specifically, that critical theory doesn't restrict itself to questions the understanding of art and language doesn't assume that all litcrit is Foulcaldian in nature, even if that is one such example. In retrospect "specifically "was probably not the best way to begin a non-exhaustive and non-universal list.
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BeNarwhalThe Work Left UnfinishedRegistered Userregular
Issue fatigue is overshadowed by "oppression fatigue"?
What does that even mean?
That's why I put it in quotes! I really don't know how to state it properly in a context that compares/contrasts the two, and I apologize.
A black person, even a successful black person, in the US is presented EVERY day of his life that he is black, that he will have to endure the stereotypes of being black in his daily interactions. He has no choice in the matter. When you are minority, you get tired of being in that minority because it means that you have to live every day under those conditions.
With issue fatigue, it's basically "I'm just tired of having this same-sex marriage/racial inquality/1% Occupy shit thrown in my face all the time!", in my mind. They are tired of discussing it, but they have the power to NOT discuss it if they wish. There's a huge difference there, in my mind. If someone doesn't want all that gay shit thrown in their face, they could, you know, just turn off the news from time to time. They don't have to deal with cultural stereotypes of being gay because hey, they're not gay! No one is treating them as gay! Or black or female, etc.
I'm just saying that the comparison of the two is kind of absurd because issue fatigue is not somebody suffering because they don't want all that gay shit thrown in their face
it just describes something that works against getting support for an issue. Saying "get over it" is just really weird for that reason.
What you describe is probably one definition of issue fatigue, I will admit, and the definition of issue fatigue used by my circle of peers IRL (what I am describing) is probably a different definition entirely. Which is probably where our disconnect lies. My coworkers use the phrase "issue fatigue" with regards to social issues in the manner that I described "I'm tired of all these gay rights activists bringing up gay this, and gay that". Etc.
few people go like "man I am out of shits to give". Honest, at least.
Specifically, that critical theory doesn't restrict itself to questions the understanding of art and language doesn't assume that all litcrit is Foulcaldian in nature, even if that is one such example. In retrospect "specifically "was probably not the best way to begin a non-exhaustive and non-universal list.
My coworker has asked and I quote "what is the best way for a poor person to get around london"
For tourism the big double decker tourism buses are good. They are a flat fee for 24 hours and go to most of the big tourist areas.
For regular as well as tourism, the Tube is good and should be used. Oyster card should be obtained
pls its spelled tuboid
The first time I was in London my wife and I were walking (by the Tate Modern I think) and there was this California grandma becoming upset because she asked two pedestrians in a row if they could direct her to the subway and they pointed to a nearby walkway under another road (I kinda think they were probably just being dicks but whatever). We explained they didn't call it that there and helped her get on a train to her hotel because she had been separated from her family and had no phone or money.
Oyster Cards are the shit. I promise you this: if you do not get an oyster card and put an appropriate amount of money on it for your stay in London (I think it's like 2.80 per stop in zone 1), everyone will hate you with rage unbound as you fumble to put your ticket in the goddamn thing that only works half the time. Oyster card is the #1 way to make Londoners sigh less.
(V) ( ;,,; ) (V)
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TehSlothHit Or MissI Guess They Never Miss, HuhRegistered Userregular
I think we have hit critical mass of attractive ladies and chicken wings places near my office.
If you go up to a southerner and say "You know southerners are horrible racists"
You're an asshole you know that right?
Contrary to what you might think, I don't typically initiate conversations that way, much like 100% of all other people on earth.
And your response was strawmanning not just a little bit
How is One man was a jerk to me so all men are assholes functionally different?
Because in the example Jill wasn't lamenting just the single instance of Chad being a sexist dick, she was by association lamenting the patriarchal social structure that informed Chad of the assumed veracity of his belief and propagated and disseminated that belief among other men with little meaningful repercussion, thus significantly increasing the likelihood of the continuation of similar encounters and problems for the rest of her life.
But that's a really long thing to say, full of nuance, and Jill is really just hoping she can vent to a friend the frustration that yet another man she has to interact with is part of this bullshit cabal of senseless gender-based oppression that she's had to deal with every fucking day she's roamed this earth without that friend revealing himself to be just another self-absorbed asshole who doesn't understand her or what she's talking about at all.
Maybe Jill should be less fuckin' vague.
Yes, in this situation, Jill should have said, "Gah, I hate the way the institutions of the patriarchy bestow oblivious privilege upon men who, in turn, perpetuate this cycle of discrimination and discredit by existing within it at its benefit apex while being ignorant of its machinations!"
That way, her male friend wouldn't get his feelings hurt.
Hurting your friend's feelings is not trivial! Ever!
I guess I'm having a lot of trouble imagining a scenario where someone who is a good friend to Jill listens to her vent about the way someone levied an oppressive gender assumption in attempts to limit her agency . . . and his first instinct is to make it about himself.
That's not what a friend does, and by context alone only a real jerk would even jump to that conclusion.
You've never dealt with someone who was upset and told them maybe the things they were saying were hurtful?
This is a conversation, not a Samaritan helpline. Jill doesn't have carte blanche to say whatever she wants just because she's sad.
No, Tav, Jill has carte blanche to say whatever she wants just because she's a woman and Jack is a man.
We still haven't resolved what happens if Jack is a black man, however.
No one is suggesting this at all and you're not advancing the discussion in any helpful way by keeping this up
You're welcome to respond to Houn's post about how if you were to put any ethnic or religious prefix in front of "man" Jill would be, obviously, totally in the wrong
What I'm taking from that is that without such a qualifier, man has no value otherwise and apparently isn't worthy of courtesy from Jill to be more precise with her language
The black man addendum was for someone else (mobile, don't remember who) using Scalzi 's "lowest difficulty setting" terminology to say Jack didn't have the necessary moral capital as a (white, of course) man to challenge Jill's generalization.
I'm on mobile so quotes are unavailable, sorry.
SummaryJudgment on
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
On the one hand, people on tumblr say hurtful things that I don't agree with
On the other hand, there is a systemic dismantling of women's healthcare access and biological self determination occurring in many states
But I for one am glad that we are paying more attention to the highly relevant people on tumblr who must wield incredible political power for us to be do concerned about what they're tweeting about
Also they say privilege a lot and that makes me feel bad
Given that most of what people call SJW on tumblr tend to talk about trivial things and make little actual change this seems unintentionally ironic.
Like do you think Elizabeth Warren has spent 5 seconds contemplating what Daniel Tosh said during a standup act?
the point is that social justice is incredibly necessary and people complaining about tumblr echo chambers, and the echo chambers themselves, are often missing the point: there are real, tangible, large-scale issues that are very important and need to be addressed
Then perhaps people on tumblr (and more importantly, jezebel or polygon) shouldn't waste time complaining about issues that are unimportant?
I don't think that's the problem. the complainers about the trivial, and the complainers about the complainers, can spiral into obscurity and frustration as much as they want
the problem is that people say "let's fix this real, major social women's issue" and the response is, somehow, "but someone on tumblr said something that made me feel bad!", a total non-sequitur that derails the conversation into that spiral rather than an actual discussion of the issue
I don't think its a non sequitur. I think that it behooves a social movement to enforce discipline in the ranks. Issue fatigue has a real negative impact on important issues. Its a major problem with third wave feminism, I think.
I don't think you meant to present it this way, but I think that this comment makes it sound like "those uppity (insert oppressed minority) need to tell their followers to toe the line."
I used to joke when people talk about Asians like we are some sort of big monolithic group that "I'll be sure to mention that at the next big meeting". :-P
I also feel that the "issue fatigue" of the ones with the power is overshadowed by the "oppression fatigue" of those without power. You have the choice to disengage and to not talk about it (whether or not you do is your own prerogative). If you don't have power, and you are being oppressed, you have no choice. "Why don't you just act more white?" Something like that.
This is correct as a point of fairness, but not really as a strategic matter. The bolded may be very good advice to an oppressed minority trying to convince the majority to change the status quo, as a strategic matter.
I think part of the point is that people shouldn't need elaborate strategy to be accepted by society. It's not really their job to conform to make themselves societally acceptable, it's society's job to stop measuring everyone in degrees of whiteness.
Understood, but following that as a strategy is basically conceding.
On the one hand, people on tumblr say hurtful things that I don't agree with
On the other hand, there is a systemic dismantling of women's healthcare access and biological self determination occurring in many states
But I for one am glad that we are paying more attention to the highly relevant people on tumblr who must wield incredible political power for us to be do concerned about what they're tweeting about
Also they say privilege a lot and that makes me feel bad
Given that most of what people call SJW on tumblr tend to talk about trivial things and make little actual change this seems unintentionally ironic.
Like do you think Elizabeth Warren has spent 5 seconds contemplating what Daniel Tosh said during a standup act?
the point is that social justice is incredibly necessary and people complaining about tumblr echo chambers, and the echo chambers themselves, are often missing the point: there are real, tangible, large-scale issues that are very important and need to be addressed
Then perhaps people on tumblr (and more importantly, jezebel or polygon) shouldn't waste time complaining about issues that are unimportant?
I don't think that's the problem. the complainers about the trivial, and the complainers about the complainers, can spiral into obscurity and frustration as much as they want
the problem is that people say "let's fix this real, major social women's issue" and the response is, somehow, "but someone on tumblr said something that made me feel bad!", a total non-sequitur that derails the conversation into that spiral rather than an actual discussion of the issue
I don't think its a non sequitur. I think that it behooves a social movement to enforce discipline in the ranks. Issue fatigue has a real negative impact on important issues. Its a major problem with third wave feminism, I think.
I don't think you meant to present it this way, but I think that this comment makes it sound like "those uppity (insert oppressed minority) need to tell their followers to toe the line."
I used to joke when people talk about Asians like we are some sort of big monolithic group that "I'll be sure to mention that at the next big meeting". :-P
I also feel that the "issue fatigue" of the ones with the power is overshadowed by the "oppression fatigue" of those without power. You have the choice to disengage and to not talk about it (whether or not you do is your own prerogative). If you don't have power, and you are being oppressed, you have no choice. "Why don't you just act more white?" Something like that.
This is correct as a point of fairness, but not really as a strategic matter. The bolded may be very good advice to an oppressed minority trying to convince the majority to change the status quo, as a strategic matter.
I think part of the point is that people shouldn't need elaborate strategy to be accepted by society. It's not really their job to conform to make themselves societally acceptable, it's society's job to stop measuring everyone in degrees of whiteness.
Understood, but following that as a strategy is basically conceding.
concessions are kind of made either way, i suppose
Allegedly a voice of reason.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
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perfect
You and I both know that's gonna take quite a lady.
The Kraken!
<_<
It totally is!
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I don't mind being wrong about things! I think I achieved a better understanding of your point.
68% of which Republicans
how was question asked
pls to see source
skeptical eyebrow
I'd love it if you took a look at my art and my PATREON!
twitch.tv/tehsloth
I feel like prepaying really locks you in
BC, please
It was a poll on a website
Like gospel, those things
Above reproach
pls its spelled tuboid
my oyster card gives me mussel points rewards
that does seem a bit low yeah....
I'd love it if you took a look at my art and my PATREON!
Wait, I think I get it.
And it is based on miscomprehension of which you spoke earlier.
Specifically, that critical theory doesn't restrict itself to questions the understanding of art and language doesn't assume that all litcrit is Foulcaldian in nature, even if that is one such example. In retrospect "specifically "was probably not the best way to begin a non-exhaustive and non-universal list.
Oooh, it's one of those gifs where you can just sorta HEAR it, y'know? :P
few people go like "man I am out of shits to give". Honest, at least.
indeed!
The first time I was in London my wife and I were walking (by the Tate Modern I think) and there was this California grandma becoming upset because she asked two pedestrians in a row if they could direct her to the subway and they pointed to a nearby walkway under another road (I kinda think they were probably just being dicks but whatever). We explained they didn't call it that there and helped her get on a train to her hotel because she had been separated from her family and had no phone or money.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
It was between that one and
b/c Kyon is usually a good representation of my emotions
but that one was just like... audible, so it won
I'd love it if you took a look at my art and my PATREON!
Running nerds might find this interesting.
@Hakkekage @BEAST! @desc @Casual
I'm okay with this
twitch.tv/tehsloth
every morning I wake up with a small number of shits to give about work stuff
and that storehouse is depleted by like, 8:15am
I feel like my job should be better about rationing this precious resource
In like a... good way, or a "how long have those socks been on my floor??" way
I'd love it if you took a look at my art and my PATREON!
You're thinking of "Change at Baker Street".
Bakerloo, interestingly enough, is also not a euphemism.
You're welcome to respond to Houn's post about how if you were to put any ethnic or religious prefix in front of "man" Jill would be, obviously, totally in the wrong
What I'm taking from that is that without such a qualifier, man has no value otherwise and apparently isn't worthy of courtesy from Jill to be more precise with her language
The black man addendum was for someone else (mobile, don't remember who) using Scalzi 's "lowest difficulty setting" terminology to say Jack didn't have the necessary moral capital as a (white, of course) man to challenge Jill's generalization.
I'm on mobile so quotes are unavailable, sorry.
Her bangs make her look like a Cthulhu
Understood, but following that as a strategy is basically conceding.
If we work hard, together, we can make sure that you wake up giving absolutely no shits
@Hakkekage
A Cute-thulhu.
concessions are kind of made either way, i suppose
penn alla vodka