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As cool as winter, as hot as summer Dresden and other Books-Cinder Spires 2 is out!

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    MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Finished Battle Ground in a lovely all-nighter. Still gathering all my thoughts.

    Marcone speculation:
    I don't think his final bout with Harry will be physical fight.

    It'll be about a third party, someone their trying to influence. If the series has a running theme, it's choice. Battle Ground explicitly sets Harry and Marcone as equals and opposites within Chicago's new paradigm. My guess is that their "battle" will be over the city's soul—or maybe how humanity reacts to the supernatural.

    Either way, yet another wizard duel would be a little weak. Harry felled a god. Basic spell-slinging isn't going to cut it for a climax anymore.

    Thought on That Part of BG:
    I don't think Murphy was fridged. While her death affected Harry*, I'd argue it was also the culmination of her own character arc. She always struggled to find a balance between the mundane world (her job, her family legacy) and the supernatural (being the ally Harry and Chicago needed), and ultimately sacrificed the first for the second. You see that play out again in her final scene. She killed a giant with a bazooka—and then was killed by a panicked, idiot cop. Here's the thing: had Murphy made different choices, she could've been Rudolph. His arrogance, his corruption, and his weakness are all foils to the person she chose to be.

    By contrast, fridging Murphy would've been more like Ehtniu's false memory; brutally murdered as an afterthought specifically to make Harry weak.

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    RhinocerousRhinocerous Registered User regular
    Re: That BG Thing
    I've been thinking about the way Murph went out. She spent years fighting things way out of her weight class. Things that should have killed her. She was a lot like Harry in that way, but much more so. Even hurt and with greatly diminished capacity, she was able to slay a literal giant. Mere gods and monsters could not defeat Karrin Murphy. In the end, she fell to the the only thing that has consistently injured her throughout the series. Namely, the corruption and betrayal of the institution to which she dedicated her life. That feels right to me, and I'm okay with it.

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    zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    I think the next book title should be
    White Wedding
    And having Harry Dresden singing the hey little sister lines and grabbing his shotgun at the right moment, seams on brand.

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    GiantGeek2020GiantGeek2020 Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    I think the next book title should be
    White Wedding
    And having Harry Dresden singing the hey little sister lines and grabbing his shotgun at the right moment, seams on brand.

    Number of letters don't match.

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    jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Thought on That Part of BG:
    I don't think Murphy was fridged. While her death affected Harry*, I'd argue it was also the culmination of her own character arc. She always struggled to find a balance between the mundane world (her job, her family legacy) and the supernatural (being the ally Harry and Chicago needed), and ultimately sacrificed the first for the second. You see that play out again in her final scene. She killed a giant with a bazooka—and then was killed by a panicked, idiot cop. Here's the thing: had Murphy made different choices, she could've been Rudolph. His arrogance, his corruption, and his weakness are all foils to the person she chose to be.

    By contrast, fridging Murphy would've been more like Ehtniu's false memory; brutally murdered as an afterthought specifically to make Harry weak.
    Re: That Part
    Plus, she's an einherjar now. I bet she shows up in the Final Battle. Maybe literally as a Valkyrie this time around instead of figuratively like she was this time. Extra speculation: Harry will have no idea who she is, crying with no idea why.

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    kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Re: That BG Thing
    I've been thinking about the way Murph went out. She spent years fighting things way out of her weight class. Things that should have killed her. She was a lot like Harry in that way, but much more so. Even hurt and with greatly diminished capacity, she was able to slay a literal giant. Mere gods and monsters could not defeat Karrin Murphy. In the end, she fell to the the only thing that has consistently injured her throughout the series. Namely, the corruption and betrayal of the institution to which she dedicated her life. That feels right to me, and I'm okay with it.
    Murphy also has trained with both Valkyrie and The eirhanderIcan'tspellit berzerkers of asgard I can't imagine we don't see a valk ascended version of murph before this series is done.

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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    kaid wrote: »
    Re: That BG Thing
    I've been thinking about the way Murph went out. She spent years fighting things way out of her weight class. Things that should have killed her. She was a lot like Harry in that way, but much more so. Even hurt and with greatly diminished capacity, she was able to slay a literal giant. Mere gods and monsters could not defeat Karrin Murphy. In the end, she fell to the the only thing that has consistently injured her throughout the series. Namely, the corruption and betrayal of the institution to which she dedicated her life. That feels right to me, and I'm okay with it.
    Murphy also has trained with both Valkyrie and The eirhanderIcan'tspellit berzerkers of asgard I can't imagine we don't see a valk ascended version of murph before this series is done.

    Legit speculation on that.
    Gard, or someone, specifically said that the eirhandjrjar peeps are kept, I dunno, in storage or Valhalla or something until the time their memory has faded into legend. I think Butcher has said that Dresden will break all the laws of magic, and no time travel is one of those laws. Seems like a possible thing there.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Dresden's criminal record up to BG
    So far Dresden's only broken the First Law a few times, right? Morgan thought he violated the Fourth and Fifth laws, but the Za-Lord's Guard and Sue don't count as human souls for the Council's purposes, so...

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    ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    Quick reference to the laws of magic:

    1. Thou shalt not kill.
    2. Thou Shalt Not Transform Others
    3. Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another
    4. Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another
    5. Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life
    6. Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time
    7. Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates

    Harry has violated the fifth via loophole, and the third via proxy (having Molly wipe his memory). The banner thing from BG might count as a violation of the fourth.

    Civics is not a consumer product that you can ignore because you don’t like the options presented.
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    kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Quick reference to the laws of magic:

    1. Thou shalt not kill.
    2. Thou Shalt Not Transform Others
    3. Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another
    4. Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another
    5. Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life
    6. Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time
    7. Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates

    Harry has violated the fifth via loophole, and the third via proxy (having Molly wipe his memory). The banner thing from BG might count as a violation of the fourth.
    I don't think that would break the fourth. They are not enthralled they entered into it willingly and joined harry of their own free will in the defense of the city and people. His aura bound both ways him to them and them to him but it did not force anybody to do anything against their own free will.

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    DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    kaid wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Quick reference to the laws of magic:

    1. Thou shalt not kill.
    2. Thou Shalt Not Transform Others
    3. Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another
    4. Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another
    5. Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life
    6. Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time
    7. Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates

    Harry has violated the fifth via loophole, and the third via proxy (having Molly wipe his memory). The banner thing from BG might count as a violation of the fourth.
    I don't think that would break the fourth. They are not enthralled they entered into it willingly and joined harry of their own free will in the defense of the city and people. His aura bound both ways him to them and them to him but it did not force anybody to do anything against their own free will.

    At least those of them with free will.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
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    jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    Let's be real though, the White Council would be more than happy to put Harry on trial for violating all of them.

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    MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    Speaking of the White Council:
    They've got to be playing a long game re: Harry, because otherwise kicking him out is the worst possible choice.

    If they honestly believe Harry is a threat/should be put down, then they've just wasted their only legitimate means of doing so. Because now Harry is only the Winter Knight—there's no way they can openly move against him without personally insulting Mab. If the Harry/Lara marriage happens, you can add the White Court into the mix, and the Council is no position to fight a two-front war.

    And that's to say nothing of the stupidity inherent to going after somebody who has a fucking Titan for a Pokémon.

    Nah, if the Council was serious about stopping/killing Harry, they'd just hire Kincaid to shoot him again.

    My guess is the Merlin's using Harry as bait for the Black Council.

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Let's be even more real: The council isn't going to do shit for a number of reasons. Other than maybe get dissolved to some degree or other eventually.

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    jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    edited October 2020
    I'm at That Part again in my audiobook listen of Battle Ground. Major character spoilers.
    I know I already said this, but it bears repeating. Harry should have shot Rudolph in the fucking face. I realize the point of the scene (and most of the book), that Butcher wanted Dresden to really acknowledge what the Winter Mantle is. And that moment Harry is figuratively possessed by his literal demons (dude smells of brimstone after Butters cooks his arm), or, possibly, Butters cooks away some evil part of Harry with Fidelacchius (or maybe Harry's evil intent in the moment).

    But Dresden should have fucking shot Rudolph in the goddamn face with the coach gun.

    Edit: James Marsters is an incredible narrator.

    jdarksun on
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    DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    I'm at That Part again in my audiobook listen of Battle Ground. Major character spoilers.
    I know I already said this, but it bears repeating. Harry should have shot Rudolph in the fucking face. I realize the point of the scene (and most of the book), that Butcher wanted Dresden to really acknowledge what the Winter Mantle is. And that moment Harry is figuratively possessed by his literal demons (dude smells of brimstone after Butters cooks his arm), or, possibly, Butters cooks away some evil part of Harry with Fidelacchius (or maybe Harry's evil intent in the moment).

    But Dresden should have fucking shot Rudolph in the goddamn face with the coach gun.

    Edit: James Marsters is an incredible narrator.

    BG spoilers:
    With a year between the next book it is far past time something was done about Rudolf. So probably not murder but exposing who he's working for and getting him off the force should be pretty simple for Dresden. Hell, he could probably just sick the Little Folk on it and find out what he'd need to know.

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
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    Moridin889Moridin889 Registered User regular
    I think...

    Future Speculation
    The White Council is going to send his grandfather to execute him at some point. This fight was just the warmup. Harry is the Winter Knight. The Blackstaff is an artifact of Winter. Just seems like it'll end up in his hands. Also the running theme of Dresden having things trying to corrupt/take him over all series.

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    jdarksunjdarksun Struggler VARegistered User regular
    There is a shocking amount of foreshadowing in BG.
    * they're constantly talking about trigger discipline
    * Female sihde warriors are the ones who bear Murph's body, like Valkyries that take her later

    ...ok that's just two things but I swear the first half of the book is subtle setup for the second

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    ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Quick reference to the laws of magic:

    1. Thou shalt not kill.
    2. Thou Shalt Not Transform Others
    3. Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another
    4. Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another
    5. Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life
    6. Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time
    7. Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates

    Harry has violated the fifth via loophole, and the third via proxy (having Molly wipe his memory). The banner thing from BG might count as a violation of the fourth.

    Lawbreaking
    I don't think he or Molly are on the hook for the Third Law. Both parties were willing participants (well, one more than the other), so it was less "invading" than "inviting in to renovate." Also, Harry might loathe the White Council, but he really respects the Laws, at least in intent - if he was knowingly crossing a line like that, even given his condition in Changes, he would have made more of a big deal about it.

    Good point on the Fourth, though. Apparently nobody from the Council noticed, given Ramirez didn't mention it when he exiled Harry..

    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Speaking of the White Council:
    They've got to be playing a long game re: Harry, because otherwise kicking him out is the worst possible choice.
    It was a pretty bad choice, if understandable from the Council's point of view after the last few years, yeah.

    What it also is, though, is a destabilizing choice that sets a chunk of the Senior Council at least quietly at odds with the rest, more than usual, and completely wrecks the White Council presence in one of the places on the planet in which they really don't need to be jettisoning power and influence right now.

    It was mostly the sort of decision they've wanted to make for years anyway, but it's also in line with the Black Council anthill-kicking of the last several years.

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    MancingtomMancingtom Registered User regular
    My thing with the White Council is that
    if they're really that short-sighted, it's hard to buy that they've played ball with the likes of Mab and the vampire courts for centuries on end.

    It'd be different if the series presented wizards in a straight Puny Earthlings sense, but it's clear the Faerie Courts et. al respect the Council as a great power. You don't reach that kind of power, and you certainly don't hold it, if you consistently make bad choices.

    Somebody on reddit pointed out Redcap's admonishment to read between the lines, and I think they're on to something.

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    RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    Let's be real though, the White Council would be more than happy to put Harry on trial for violating all of them.

    Harry's not going to be violating all of them, just - oh you said White Council

    Haha, carry on

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG
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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Quick reference to the laws of magic:

    1. Thou shalt not kill.
    2. Thou Shalt Not Transform Others
    3. Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another
    4. Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another
    5. Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life
    6. Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time
    7. Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates

    Harry has violated the fifth via loophole, and the third via proxy (having Molly wipe his memory). The banner thing from BG might count as a violation of the fourth.

    RAW they're a weird combination of ironclad and loosey goosey, plus the Council's rather self-serving decision that only humans count for a lot of the rules.
    I do see that you're specifically prohibited from going against the currents of time. Which makes sense since the primary concern there is triggering a paradox and causing the universe to go poof. The wording does leave a an opening for jumping forward though.

    Seven is funny because
    there's literally the Outer Gates that a council member (or Harry, in his capacity as Winter Knight) might actually have legitimate cause to open up, while the general interpretation by the Council on that rule is mostly focused on not doing anything with Outsiders, ever.

    The first rule... really weak that one is. Harry blasting someone in the face with a fireball, sure, you killed them with magic. Lighting numerous small fires (magically, let's just imagine that Harry manages that level of control) in a building and hexing the smoke detectors and sprinkler system so that the smoke inhalation gets everyone, that's what, just physics taking it's course?

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    CatalaseCatalase Registered User regular
    Intent is a really big thing in the Dresdenverse though, is it not?

    "Life before death, strength before weakness, journey before destination."
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    daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Catalase wrote: »
    Intent is a really big thing in the Dresdenverse though, is it not?

    As far as the feedback loop from mindfuckery goes, yeah. There's definitely something about messing with people's minds that turns you into a frothing at the mouth maniac. The last speculation from Harry a few books ago about killing with magic had him musing that there was an issue with using the power of life to end a life. Thing is, there's also been a lot of words spent talking about how magic can't exactly avoid the laws of physics, the energy has to come from somewhere, either the user's will or the environment (as when he used a fire blast to freeze a chunk of water), and once the magic has been expended things run their course as usual. In one of the first encounters with Cowl, Harry used a force blast to flip a car on top of him. Would that have counted? Would it have actually had a negative effect on Harry's brain, or would something like that led to the dark side just because killing things, if you have the power, is a really easy way to solve your problems, and you're gonna start racking up a hell of a body count and likely start thinking life is pretty damn cheap. Which would be an interesting thing to consider since while Harry hasn't killed a lot of people and isn't a huge fan of that even when it's people like Nicodemus' goons, he's a veritable murder machine when it comes to fae creatures, and he's pretty damn callous about offing even the non-psychotically carnivorous types.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    Rereading Side Jobs / Brief Cases after the main series and I forgot about Carlos and Molly in the story, "Cold Case".

    Oh yeah, that's why he has a chip on his shoulder about the Winter Court.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    I really should get around to reading that set cause it gets referenced all the time apparently.

    steam_sig.png
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    MegaMan001MegaMan001 CRNA Rochester, MNRegistered User regular
    I really should get around to reading that set cause it gets referenced all the time apparently.

    The first one, Side Jobs, is mostly little interesting things (and a huge Thomas reveal which is...never brought up again?).

    The second one, Brief Cases, has a ton of pretty major developments that are particularly referenced in Peace Talks / Battle Ground.

    I am in the business of saving lives.
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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    MegaMan001 wrote: »
    I really should get around to reading that set cause it gets referenced all the time apparently.

    The first one, Side Jobs, is mostly little interesting things (and a huge Thomas reveal which is...never brought up again?).

    The second one, Brief Cases, has a ton of pretty major developments that are particularly referenced in Peace Talks / Battle Ground.

    I think I've read Side Jobs
    the Thomas thing being him and Lara being members of like, a secret society that destroys knowledge of super dangerous beings so they can fade away?
    Or at least, I've read some of the stories. Sometimes individual ones get attached to the end of a novel so hard to tell if I've hit a whole collection.

    steam_sig.png
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    ElvenshaeElvenshae Registered User regular
    That’s the one.

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    HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    It would defeat the purpose of it if it were brought up again.

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    kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    Quick reference to the laws of magic:

    1. Thou shalt not kill.
    2. Thou Shalt Not Transform Others
    3. Thou Shalt Not Invade the Mind of Another
    4. Thou Shalt Not Enthrall Another
    5. Thou Shalt Not Reach Beyond the Borders of Life
    6. Thou Shalt Not Swim Against the Currents of Time
    7. Thou Shalt Not Open the Outer Gates

    Harry has violated the fifth via loophole, and the third via proxy (having Molly wipe his memory). The banner thing from BG might count as a violation of the fourth.

    Lawbreaking
    I don't think he or Molly are on the hook for the Third Law. Both parties were willing participants (well, one more than the other), so it was less "invading" than "inviting in to renovate." Also, Harry might loathe the White Council, but he really respects the Laws, at least in intent - if he was knowingly crossing a line like that, even given his condition in Changes, he would have made more of a big deal about it.

    Good point on the Fourth, though. Apparently nobody from the Council noticed, given Ramirez didn't mention it when he exiled Harry..

    Mancingtom wrote: »
    Speaking of the White Council:
    They've got to be playing a long game re: Harry, because otherwise kicking him out is the worst possible choice.
    It was a pretty bad choice, if understandable from the Council's point of view after the last few years, yeah.

    What it also is, though, is a destabilizing choice that sets a chunk of the Senior Council at least quietly at odds with the rest, more than usual, and completely wrecks the White Council presence in one of the places on the planet in which they really don't need to be jettisoning power and influence right now.

    It was mostly the sort of decision they've wanted to make for years anyway, but it's also in line with the Black Council anthill-kicking of the last several years.
    I think one other thing I am not sure how bound to the rules of magic Harry even is any more. Now that he is kicked out of the white council and taking up more fully his winter night mantle at least for the moment is he pretty firmly outside of their purview at the moment. Now if Harry ditches his mantle at some point then that is more of an issue. I sort of suspect given how compromised the white council is he winds up making his own circle given he has been sheep dogging the paranet folks as well he has in a lot of ways already been doing this. Teaching and guarding the masses of not fully wizard but still magical humans.

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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    what has been nagging at me for the last few books is how little harry has changed since Storm Front in terms of power. Three years have passed since the biggest shake up in the world for at least a few hundred years and yet, he's slinging the same spells, with the same kind of power level, and same lack of finesse.

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    ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    White Council, Laws
    The White Council's take on "bound by the rules" is probably the one that matters more - remember they present themselves as the official human nation and claim universal jurisdiction on on the laws as a result. If Harry decided he didn't have obligations towards the Laws in the future, the Council would definitely disagree (and probably see that as proof that he's a threat that needs to lose a foot of height).

    As for Harry's take on the Laws, I don't think he respects them because of the White Council's authority. I think he respects them because he believes they're the Right Way To Go About Things.

    Definitely agreed that Harry's going to build a nation in his own right by the time the dust settles overall, though.

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    kaidkaid Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    what has been nagging at me for the last few books is how little harry has changed since Storm Front in terms of power. Three years have passed since the biggest shake up in the world for at least a few hundred years and yet, he's slinging the same spells, with the same kind of power level, and same lack of finesse.

    Well at the pace things keep happening other than his time working with molly and training her he has not had a ton of time to really develop his skills much. Hell he did not even have his lab since basically he came back to life so no time no tools = not much progress in abilities.

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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    kaid wrote: »
    Pailryder wrote: »
    what has been nagging at me for the last few books is how little harry has changed since Storm Front in terms of power. Three years have passed since the biggest shake up in the world for at least a few hundred years and yet, he's slinging the same spells, with the same kind of power level, and same lack of finesse.

    Well at the pace things keep happening other than his time working with molly and training her he has not had a ton of time to really develop his skills much. Hell he did not even have his lab since basically he came back to life so no time no tools = not much progress in abilities.

    And he definitely complained about it several times during BG. Since he's had at least 6 months of downtime since then hopefully he gets to go back to school as he put it.

    steam_sig.png
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    see317see317 Registered User regular
    edited October 2020
    Pailryder wrote: »
    what has been nagging at me for the last few books is how little harry has changed since Storm Front in terms of power. Three years have passed since the biggest shake up in the world for at least a few hundred years and yet, he's slinging the same spells, with the same kind of power level, and same lack of finesse.

    The thing I'm kind of worried about is where is there to go?
    I mean, we're on book 17 out of a planned 23-24 book series, and Harry just locked a titan up in his private super jail.
    What's left for him over the next 3-5 books before he gets to the apocalyptic trilogy finale?
    There's not much space left for him on the power scale. What's he going to for his next trick? (15 internet points for anyone that said "Lara Raith")
    It seems that the only thing really left is for him to fight a god, and then for him to attack and dethrone capital-g God.
    Maybe by that time he'll have read a book to figure out this starborn thing is all about and be ready to go slap Cthulhu and his buddies down so they back off on their "Destroy the entirety of reality" thing.

    see317 on
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    HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    Spoilers? Also...
    It's not like Harry soloed the titan. It took a combined effort of just about all of the strongest entities from the Dresdenverse to weaken her enough that Harry was able to capture her. And even that would have failed except for unexpected assistance from a Denarian.

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    ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    BG, Ethniu
    Yeah, Harry's credited with being the one to put Ethniu away, but I'm pretty sure what we saw was a glimpse at what putting Kemmler down must have been like.

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    PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    I think the argument that Harry hasn't had time is false. Again, 3 years between Red Court finale and BG. No new powers, no skillups, nothing that makes him more of a threat than he was.

    My real problem with the series and it ties into what see317 brings up is that the series started out as a guy being a detective solving mysteries in Chicago, and he's also a wizard so you get that cool world. It's never been close to that in the last few books. If the author wants to foreshadow "A"pocolypse, then there needs to be foreshadowing of how the hero can overcome that. I miss the good ol detective Harry. Maybe the books have moved on from me and that's ok. Peace Talks and BG should have been one book and it probably would have felt better especially regarding
    Justine

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    XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Harry has gone up quite the ways in power from Storm Front. Add up all the new powers and allies and favors and abilties. He just hasn't really used much of it in impressive ways. Partly to keep him in danger in thoery.

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