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As cool as winter, as hot as summer[Harry Dresden]-Battle Grounds is out!

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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Peace Talks:
    McCoy losing it was at least built up some. Even if the end of the fight was a bit clunky, it at least started from a base that was established.

    The Blackstaff isn't even wrong. Lara is going to fuck him over sooner or later. Thomas is (probably) unique in being able to trust a White. And even he gets iffy if he gets Hungry.
    I just don't remember that much loss of control or obsession from McCoy in the past, but maybe I'm misremembering. But like.... he just committed murder with magic (I mean he got off on a technicality, but still), that seems like it should have been a Big Deal and not something that just kinda happened in this book because he was suddenly irrationally angry and wild.

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  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    when logic gets thrown out the window
    you have to look at whether the emotions make sense. we just learned about lara literally raising thomas, so is her reaction to harry THE BROTHER, that has literally been helping thomas against the wishes of the wizard council, going to do something to hurt him? It doesn't make sense emotionally, there was no previous trigger for lara to come at harry, she's not been shown to be irrationally emotion previously, and that's why it falls flat. If there had been any kind of setup in previous books or even earlier in this book, showing she makes mistakes when it comes to thomas, then yeah, it becomes "more" believable.
    this is true for most of the characters that people are complaining about. Nothing sets up the last act from previous books or events in the book that lead to the escalation of irrationality.
    if people thought it worked out, that's totally fine. i'm just explaining why it didn't feel right to me.

    RingoShadowhopeBanzai5150BlackDragon480
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Peace Talks:
    McCoy losing it was at least built up some. Even if the end of the fight was a bit clunky, it at least started from a base that was established.

    The Blackstaff isn't even wrong. Lara is going to fuck him over sooner or later. Thomas is (probably) unique in being able to trust a White. And even he gets iffy if he gets Hungry.
    I just don't remember that much loss of control or obsession from McCoy in the past, but maybe I'm misremembering. But like.... he just committed murder with magic (I mean he got off on a technicality, but still), that seems like it should have been a Big Deal and not something that just kinda happened in this book because he was suddenly irrationally angry and wild.

    About that part (peace talks and older):
    Blackstaff is a title. He is the exception to the no killing rule when the council deems it is necessary. That is job. And also why he is also considered so dangerous on top of being like ancient.

    u7stthr17eud.png
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Peace Talks:
    McCoy losing it was at least built up some. Even if the end of the fight was a bit clunky, it at least started from a base that was established.

    The Blackstaff isn't even wrong. Lara is going to fuck him over sooner or later. Thomas is (probably) unique in being able to trust a White. And even he gets iffy if he gets Hungry.
    I just don't remember that much loss of control or obsession from McCoy in the past, but maybe I'm misremembering. But like.... he just committed murder with magic (I mean he got off on a technicality, but still), that seems like it should have been a Big Deal and not something that just kinda happened in this book because he was suddenly irrationally angry and wild.

    About that part (peace talks and older):
    Blackstaff is a title. He is the exception to the no killing rule when the council deems it is necessary. That is job. And also why he is also considered so dangerous on top of being like ancient.

    I'm aware, but it's still a big deal. Or well, should be, based on everything we know about him

    Edit
    like, remember when Harry found out about the Blackstaff business. It nearly broke their relationship!

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    Ebenezar and Harry
    Leaving aside what was done to him, personally, I suspect Harry's going to spend awhile parsing the fact that Ebenezar attempted to knowingly murder Thomas and Murphy, using magic, and not using the Blackstaff, meaning there is no way he can pretend that wasn't an outcome McCoy truly believed was worth bringing about (as opposed to "the staff itself wants to do this" or "the staff overrides any ethical concerns"). At least by the end of the book I think he was still too busy being personally hurt by that fight - not without reason! - for the rest of the coins to drop.

    I dunno if they're bouncing back from this one as "easily" as the Blackstaff revelation, unless there's Actually Something Up with McCoy beyond Butcher welding the conflict ball to his head..

    kimeHeir
  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    Well:
    He didn't exactly try to murder Murphy. More like attempted incidental manslaughter via hole in boat.

    But it sure was presented like Harry will bring it up again even if not over Murphy.

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Xeddicus wrote: »
    Well:
    He didn't exactly try to murder Murphy. More like attempted incidental manslaughter via hole in boat.

    But it sure was presented like Harry will bring it up again even if not over Murphy.

    Not specific to Peace Talks, but this started from that:
    The law just says "don't kill [people] [with magic]." Murder vs Manslaughter isn't a part of it.

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  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    The White Council's interpretation of the First Law treats "manslaughter" and "murder" as the same thing - if magic was involved in the event that killed someone, they were considered murdered by magic. That kind of scenario comes up a couple of times in the books, usually making Harry limit the amount of kaboom he's willing to aim at someone until he's sure they aren't human, or even that there are humans around.

    kimeMoridin889
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    Ebenezar and Harry
    Leaving aside what was done to him, personally, I suspect Harry's going to spend awhile parsing the fact that Ebenezar attempted to knowingly murder Thomas and Murphy, using magic, and not using the Blackstaff, meaning there is no way he can pretend that wasn't an outcome McCoy truly believed was worth bringing about (as opposed to "the staff itself wants to do this" or "the staff overrides any ethical concerns"). At least by the end of the book I think he was still too busy being personally hurt by that fight - not without reason! - for the rest of the coins to drop.

    I dunno if they're bouncing back from this one as "easily" as the Blackstaff revelation, unless there's Actually Something Up with McCoy beyond Butcher welding the conflict ball to his head..
    McCoy is an anti-vampire crusader with centuries of hatred under his belt who just learned that his daughter was held captive, raped, impregnated and, eventually, killed by the head of the White Court (I don't think it was ever specified how much of that was her free will and how much was White Court Whammy, but I'm guessing McCoy's the "Fireball first, don't ask questions" type), and the daughter and heir of that vampire are in his sight.
    Given those circumstances, not nuking the entire harbor by dragging another satellite out of orbit would seem to be a considerable amount of restraint for a wizard of McCoy's skill set.

    But, yeah, I'm thinking McCoy's almost certainly dead in the next book.
    I'm guessing it'll be some kind of redemption play to save both his grandsons at the cost of his own life, buying them time to get the mcguffin and save the day. I figure a 75% percent certain that Harry picks up the Blackstaff by the end of the book. I figure 100% by the end of the series, (it's too good of a Checkov's weapon not to get into Harry's possession), but I figure there's a story where The Merlin bestows it on one of his cronies, who then goes mad with the power of being able to violate one of the laws of magic, and it's up to Harry and friends to take him/her down. Harry keeps the staff and reports it as destroyed during the struggle to the White Council.

    I'd really like to see some more history on McCoy, maybe a short story showing him and Kincaid falling out.
    But then, I'd like to see more history on almost all of the old wizards. Not that I'm tired of Dresden, but you've got a millenia long history of wizards from all over the world fighting monsters and myths and other, worse things.
    I want to know some more of that story. More stuff like Fist Full of Warlocks.

    Fake Edit: What if McCoy soulgazes Thomas and Margaret left a message there for him like she did with Harry? That could be the trigger that turns him around on Thomas, forcing McCoy to accept him as a grandson and not a complete monster that he needs to destroy.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
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  • NitsuaNitsua Gloucester, VARegistered User regular
    edited August 2020

    Concerning the White Council
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    The White Council's interpretation of the First Law treats "manslaughter" and "murder" as the same thing - if magic was involved in the event that killed someone, they were considered murdered by magic. That kind of scenario comes up a couple of times in the books, usually making Harry limit the amount of kaboom he's willing to aim at someone until he's sure they aren't human, or even that there are humans around.
    While I sort of agree with this, if this was really the case, Harry would have been tried when he set fire to Bianca’s mansion with magical fire. He knew some people, people people, were still alive when the place burnt down and he even laments about it as the firefighters are going through the wreckage and finding bodies. Absolutely nothing happened to him, he didn’t even get a stern talking to about it.

    Nitsua on
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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Concerning the White Council
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    The White Council's interpretation of the First Law treats "manslaughter" and "murder" as the same thing - if magic was involved in the event that killed someone, they were considered murdered by magic. That kind of scenario comes up a couple of times in the books, usually making Harry limit the amount of kaboom he's willing to aim at someone until he's sure they aren't human, or even that there are humans around.
    While I sort of agree with this, if this was really the case, Harry would have been tried when he set fire to Bianca’s mansion with magical fire. He knew some people, people people, were still alive when the place burnt down and he even laments about it as the firefighters are going through the wreckage and finding bodies. Absolutely nothing happened to him, he didn’t even get a stern talking to about it.
    Most of those people were already dead, vampirized and/or killed by perfectly mundane fire that was caused by magical fire.
    Completely different circumstance from killing somebody with magic.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • NitsuaNitsua Gloucester, VARegistered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Concerning the White Council
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    The White Council's interpretation of the First Law treats "manslaughter" and "murder" as the same thing - if magic was involved in the event that killed someone, they were considered murdered by magic. That kind of scenario comes up a couple of times in the books, usually making Harry limit the amount of kaboom he's willing to aim at someone until he's sure they aren't human, or even that there are humans around.
    While I sort of agree with this, if this was really the case, Harry would have been tried when he set fire to Bianca’s mansion with magical fire. He knew some people, people people, were still alive when the place burnt down and he even laments about it as the firefighters are going through the wreckage and finding bodies. Absolutely nothing happened to him, he didn’t even get a stern talking to about it.
    Most of those people were already dead, vampirized and/or killed by perfectly mundane fire that was caused by magical fire.
    Completely different circumstance from killing somebody with magic.
    Nope, notice you are even saying most, not all. Harry wouldn’t have been torn up about it at all if he didn’t notice that at least some of them were alive. The rule isn’t that it is okay if some monsters are also killed along with the humans, it’s that you must not kill any humans with magic. And Zibblsnrt is saying that the act of killing Murphy along with Thomas and Lara by using magic fire that burnt down the ship would be breaking the First Law. But I still contend that the mansion didn’t matter, this wouldn’t have either. It may have been a plot hole, but Harry keeps in mind the death of another human by fire very often since that is what got him the Sword of Damocles in the first place. Here’s a quote from Grave Peril, Ch. 30 where this occurs: “ The young people of earlier lay about, out in the darkness near the hedges, near the fires, pathetic little lumps. Some of them twitched. Some of them breathed. A few whimpered and tried to crawl away from the heat” This shows that some of them at least were still alive when the fire started. And they couldn’t get away from the fire. No one was helping them get out. They did not survive.

    And if you need any further proof, here’s Ch 31: “ “Killed them. I killed those kids. My magic, the magic that was the energy of creation and life itself had reached out and burned them to death.”

    There is even more after that, when Harry Talks with Michael who has news on how many dead were found. Michael confirms that eleven bodies were found. Now some of them may have been vampires or already dead, but the above shows that some humans were still definitely alive and trying, but failing, to escape. And Harry knew exactly what he did.

    So, if Harry didn’t get in trouble for killing those people by a fire started with his magic, what makes you think that anyone would care about what McCoy was about to do? It wouldn’t be directly, it would be just as Harry did. I do believe that the reason Harry got in trouble for Killing Justin with his magic was because he intended to kill him, he attacked him directly with it. The kids, as Harry calls them, that died in the mansion fire weren’t targeted by Harry’s fire, they did die in the same fashion that McCoy’s fire would have killed Murphy. So again, if Harry, who was under close scrutiny by the council, did not get even an admonishment by a council member for what he did, what makes you think McCoy, who has the power and job of The Blackstaff, would have suffered any repercussions?

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Nitsua wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Concerning the White Council
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    The White Council's interpretation of the First Law treats "manslaughter" and "murder" as the same thing - if magic was involved in the event that killed someone, they were considered murdered by magic. That kind of scenario comes up a couple of times in the books, usually making Harry limit the amount of kaboom he's willing to aim at someone until he's sure they aren't human, or even that there are humans around.
    While I sort of agree with this, if this was really the case, Harry would have been tried when he set fire to Bianca’s mansion with magical fire. He knew some people, people people, were still alive when the place burnt down and he even laments about it as the firefighters are going through the wreckage and finding bodies. Absolutely nothing happened to him, he didn’t even get a stern talking to about it.
    Most of those people were already dead, vampirized and/or killed by perfectly mundane fire that was caused by magical fire.
    Completely different circumstance from killing somebody with magic.
    Nope, notice you are even saying most, not all. Harry wouldn’t have been torn up about it at all if he didn’t notice that at least some of them were alive. The rule isn’t that it is okay if some monsters are also killed along with the humans, it’s that you must not kill any humans with magic. And Zibblsnrt is saying that the act of killing Murphy along with Thomas and Lara by using magic fire that burnt down the ship would be breaking the First Law. But I still contend that the mansion didn’t matter, this wouldn’t have either. It may have been a plot hole, but Harry keeps in mind the death of another human by fire very often since that is what got him the Sword of Damocles in the first place. Here’s a quote from Grave Peril, Ch. 30 where this occurs: “ The young people of earlier lay about, out in the darkness near the hedges, near the fires, pathetic little lumps. Some of them twitched. Some of them breathed. A few whimpered and tried to crawl away from the heat” This shows that some of them at least were still alive when the fire started. And they couldn’t get away from the fire. No one was helping them get out. They did not survive.

    And if you need any further proof, here’s Ch 31: “ “Killed them. I killed those kids. My magic, the magic that was the energy of creation and life itself had reached out and burned them to death.”

    There is even more after that, when Harry Talks with Michael who has news on how many dead were found. Michael confirms that eleven bodies were found. Now some of them may have been vampires or already dead, but the above shows that some humans were still definitely alive and trying, but failing, to escape. And Harry knew exactly what he did.

    So, if Harry didn’t get in trouble for killing those people by a fire started with his magic, what makes you think that anyone would care about what McCoy was about to do? It wouldn’t be directly, it would be just as Harry did. I do believe that the reason Harry got in trouble for Killing Justin with his magic was because he intended to kill him, he attacked him directly with it. The kids, as Harry calls them, that died in the mansion fire weren’t targeted by Harry’s fire, they did die in the same fashion that McCoy’s fire would have killed Murphy. So again, if Harry, who was under close scrutiny by the council, did not get even an admonishment by a council member for what he did, what makes you think McCoy, who has the power and job of The Blackstaff, would have suffered any repercussions?

    They just didn't know, and Harry didn't tell them. I don't think it's that complicated.

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  • XeddicusXeddicus Registered User regular
    I wasn't talking about how the Magic Law sees it anyway, just how Harry would interpret it.

    But the law doesn't even apply anyway as pointed out...

    "For no one - no one in this world can you trust. Not men. Not women. Not beasts...this you can trust."
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Concerning the White Council
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    The White Council's interpretation of the First Law treats "manslaughter" and "murder" as the same thing - if magic was involved in the event that killed someone, they were considered murdered by magic. That kind of scenario comes up a couple of times in the books, usually making Harry limit the amount of kaboom he's willing to aim at someone until he's sure they aren't human, or even that there are humans around.
    While I sort of agree with this, if this was really the case, Harry would have been tried when he set fire to Bianca’s mansion with magical fire. He knew some people, people people, were still alive when the place burnt down and he even laments about it as the firefighters are going through the wreckage and finding bodies. Absolutely nothing happened to him, he didn’t even get a stern talking to about it.
    Most of those people were already dead, vampirized and/or killed by perfectly mundane fire that was caused by magical fire.
    Completely different circumstance from killing somebody with magic.
    Nope, notice you are even saying most, not all. Harry wouldn’t have been torn up about it at all if he didn’t notice that at least some of them were alive. The rule isn’t that it is okay if some monsters are also killed along with the humans, it’s that you must not kill any humans with magic. And Zibblsnrt is saying that the act of killing Murphy along with Thomas and Lara by using magic fire that burnt down the ship would be breaking the First Law. But I still contend that the mansion didn’t matter, this wouldn’t have either. It may have been a plot hole, but Harry keeps in mind the death of another human by fire very often since that is what got him the Sword of Damocles in the first place. Here’s a quote from Grave Peril, Ch. 30 where this occurs: “ The young people of earlier lay about, out in the darkness near the hedges, near the fires, pathetic little lumps. Some of them twitched. Some of them breathed. A few whimpered and tried to crawl away from the heat” This shows that some of them at least were still alive when the fire started. And they couldn’t get away from the fire. No one was helping them get out. They did not survive.

    And if you need any further proof, here’s Ch 31: “ “Killed them. I killed those kids. My magic, the magic that was the energy of creation and life itself had reached out and burned them to death.”

    There is even more after that, when Harry Talks with Michael who has news on how many dead were found. Michael confirms that eleven bodies were found. Now some of them may have been vampires or already dead, but the above shows that some humans were still definitely alive and trying, but failing, to escape. And Harry knew exactly what he did.

    So, if Harry didn’t get in trouble for killing those people by a fire started with his magic, what makes you think that anyone would care about what McCoy was about to do? It wouldn’t be directly, it would be just as Harry did. I do believe that the reason Harry got in trouble for Killing Justin with his magic was because he intended to kill him, he attacked him directly with it. The kids, as Harry calls them, that died in the mansion fire weren’t targeted by Harry’s fire, they did die in the same fashion that McCoy’s fire would have killed Murphy. So again, if Harry, who was under close scrutiny by the council, did not get even an admonishment by a council member for what he did, what makes you think McCoy, who has the power and job of The Blackstaff, would have suffered any repercussions?

    They just didn't know, and Harry didn't tell them. I don't think it's that complicated.

    Yeah, It seems that wizards in this setting (and most other fantasy) love telling half truths and then acting surprised when it blows up in their faces. The third thing is they love blaming themselves when things go wrong, and then completely failing to learn anything from it.
    Reading through the books it seems like, easily, 75% of the problems could have been shut down by Harry having a long conversation with the concerned party. But that would probably make for a really dull story.
    Like, if Harry had talked to Susan about the Reds way back when, maybe she wouldn't have forged her invitation realizing that this wasn't just people playing sexy vampire, it was real danger. Maybe she would have gone in anyway though, but at least Harry would have done all he could.
    Or if Harry had talked to Murph about magic circles during the whole werewolf thing, maybe some of that unpleasantness could have been averted. Or if he had talked the the wannabe wizard who was trying to fix the circle up.
    Of if Harry had talked to Lara about what his plan on the island was.
    Or if he had mentioned to McCoy about the whole "half brother" thing.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • GiantGeek2020GiantGeek2020 Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Concerning the White Council
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    The White Council's interpretation of the First Law treats "manslaughter" and "murder" as the same thing - if magic was involved in the event that killed someone, they were considered murdered by magic. That kind of scenario comes up a couple of times in the books, usually making Harry limit the amount of kaboom he's willing to aim at someone until he's sure they aren't human, or even that there are humans around.
    While I sort of agree with this, if this was really the case, Harry would have been tried when he set fire to Bianca’s mansion with magical fire. He knew some people, people people, were still alive when the place burnt down and he even laments about it as the firefighters are going through the wreckage and finding bodies. Absolutely nothing happened to him, he didn’t even get a stern talking to about it.
    Most of those people were already dead, vampirized and/or killed by perfectly mundane fire that was caused by magical fire.
    Completely different circumstance from killing somebody with magic.
    Nope, notice you are even saying most, not all. Harry wouldn’t have been torn up about it at all if he didn’t notice that at least some of them were alive. The rule isn’t that it is okay if some monsters are also killed along with the humans, it’s that you must not kill any humans with magic. And Zibblsnrt is saying that the act of killing Murphy along with Thomas and Lara by using magic fire that burnt down the ship would be breaking the First Law. But I still contend that the mansion didn’t matter, this wouldn’t have either. It may have been a plot hole, but Harry keeps in mind the death of another human by fire very often since that is what got him the Sword of Damocles in the first place. Here’s a quote from Grave Peril, Ch. 30 where this occurs: “ The young people of earlier lay about, out in the darkness near the hedges, near the fires, pathetic little lumps. Some of them twitched. Some of them breathed. A few whimpered and tried to crawl away from the heat” This shows that some of them at least were still alive when the fire started. And they couldn’t get away from the fire. No one was helping them get out. They did not survive.

    And if you need any further proof, here’s Ch 31: “ “Killed them. I killed those kids. My magic, the magic that was the energy of creation and life itself had reached out and burned them to death.”

    There is even more after that, when Harry Talks with Michael who has news on how many dead were found. Michael confirms that eleven bodies were found. Now some of them may have been vampires or already dead, but the above shows that some humans were still definitely alive and trying, but failing, to escape. And Harry knew exactly what he did.

    So, if Harry didn’t get in trouble for killing those people by a fire started with his magic, what makes you think that anyone would care about what McCoy was about to do? It wouldn’t be directly, it would be just as Harry did. I do believe that the reason Harry got in trouble for Killing Justin with his magic was because he intended to kill him, he attacked him directly with it. The kids, as Harry calls them, that died in the mansion fire weren’t targeted by Harry’s fire, they did die in the same fashion that McCoy’s fire would have killed Murphy. So again, if Harry, who was under close scrutiny by the council, did not get even an admonishment by a council member for what he did, what makes you think McCoy, who has the power and job of The Blackstaff, would have suffered any repercussions?

    They just didn't know, and Harry didn't tell them. I don't think it's that complicated.

    Yeah, It seems that wizards in this setting (and most other fantasy) love telling half truths and then acting surprised when it blows up in their faces. The third thing is they love blaming themselves when things go wrong, and then completely failing to learn anything from it.
    Reading through the books it seems like, easily, 75% of the problems could have been shut down by Harry having a long conversation with the concerned party. But that would probably make for a really dull story.
    Like, if Harry had talked to Susan about the Reds way back when, maybe she wouldn't have forged her invitation realizing that this wasn't just people playing sexy vampire, it was real danger. Maybe she would have gone in anyway though, but at least Harry would have done all he could.
    Or if Harry had talked to Murph about magic circles during the whole werewolf thing, maybe some of that unpleasantness could have been averted. Or if he had talked the the wannabe wizard who was trying to fix the circle up.
    Of if Harry had talked to Lara about what his plan on the island was.
    Or if he had mentioned to McCoy about the whole "half brother" thing.

    Poor communication has really racked up the biggest body count in the Dresden files.

    3. A surprisingly small number of adults have attempted the largely successful, “Punch the small children to escape” tactic.
    BlackDragon480tzeentchlingHefflingHeirjjae2123Forar
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    kime wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Nitsua wrote: »
    Concerning the White Council
    Zibblsnrt wrote: »
    The White Council's interpretation of the First Law treats "manslaughter" and "murder" as the same thing - if magic was involved in the event that killed someone, they were considered murdered by magic. That kind of scenario comes up a couple of times in the books, usually making Harry limit the amount of kaboom he's willing to aim at someone until he's sure they aren't human, or even that there are humans around.
    While I sort of agree with this, if this was really the case, Harry would have been tried when he set fire to Bianca’s mansion with magical fire. He knew some people, people people, were still alive when the place burnt down and he even laments about it as the firefighters are going through the wreckage and finding bodies. Absolutely nothing happened to him, he didn’t even get a stern talking to about it.
    Most of those people were already dead, vampirized and/or killed by perfectly mundane fire that was caused by magical fire.
    Completely different circumstance from killing somebody with magic.
    Nope, notice you are even saying most, not all. Harry wouldn’t have been torn up about it at all if he didn’t notice that at least some of them were alive. The rule isn’t that it is okay if some monsters are also killed along with the humans, it’s that you must not kill any humans with magic. And Zibblsnrt is saying that the act of killing Murphy along with Thomas and Lara by using magic fire that burnt down the ship would be breaking the First Law. But I still contend that the mansion didn’t matter, this wouldn’t have either. It may have been a plot hole, but Harry keeps in mind the death of another human by fire very often since that is what got him the Sword of Damocles in the first place. Here’s a quote from Grave Peril, Ch. 30 where this occurs: “ The young people of earlier lay about, out in the darkness near the hedges, near the fires, pathetic little lumps. Some of them twitched. Some of them breathed. A few whimpered and tried to crawl away from the heat” This shows that some of them at least were still alive when the fire started. And they couldn’t get away from the fire. No one was helping them get out. They did not survive.

    And if you need any further proof, here’s Ch 31: “ “Killed them. I killed those kids. My magic, the magic that was the energy of creation and life itself had reached out and burned them to death.”

    There is even more after that, when Harry Talks with Michael who has news on how many dead were found. Michael confirms that eleven bodies were found. Now some of them may have been vampires or already dead, but the above shows that some humans were still definitely alive and trying, but failing, to escape. And Harry knew exactly what he did.

    So, if Harry didn’t get in trouble for killing those people by a fire started with his magic, what makes you think that anyone would care about what McCoy was about to do? It wouldn’t be directly, it would be just as Harry did. I do believe that the reason Harry got in trouble for Killing Justin with his magic was because he intended to kill him, he attacked him directly with it. The kids, as Harry calls them, that died in the mansion fire weren’t targeted by Harry’s fire, they did die in the same fashion that McCoy’s fire would have killed Murphy. So again, if Harry, who was under close scrutiny by the council, did not get even an admonishment by a council member for what he did, what makes you think McCoy, who has the power and job of The Blackstaff, would have suffered any repercussions?

    They just didn't know, and Harry didn't tell them. I don't think it's that complicated.

    Yeah, It seems that wizards in this setting (and most other fantasy) love telling half truths and then acting surprised when it blows up in their faces. The third thing is they love blaming themselves when things go wrong, and then completely failing to learn anything from it.
    Reading through the books it seems like, easily, 75% of the problems could have been shut down by Harry having a long conversation with the concerned party. But that would probably make for a really dull story.
    Like, if Harry had talked to Susan about the Reds way back when, maybe she wouldn't have forged her invitation realizing that this wasn't just people playing sexy vampire, it was real danger. Maybe she would have gone in anyway though, but at least Harry would have done all he could.
    Or if Harry had talked to Murph about magic circles during the whole werewolf thing, maybe some of that unpleasantness could have been averted. Or if he had talked the the wannabe wizard who was trying to fix the circle up.
    Of if Harry had talked to Lara about what his plan on the island was.
    Or if he had mentioned to McCoy about the whole "half brother" thing.

    Poor communication has really racked up the biggest body count in the Dresden files.
    I don't know, could you chalk the Bloodline Spell up to poor communication? I mean, that took out the entire Red Court, and left a subsequent power vacuum.
    Poor communication is definitely a close second.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • StraygatsbyStraygatsby Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Welp, Peace Talks was a great Prologue to a book where something actually happens.

    [I'm sorry - that's unfair]

    [But I still kinda feel that way]


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  • HeirHeir Registered User regular
    WACriminal wrote: »
    The more I think about this book today, the more I just get...kinda depressed about it. It's been 6 years since Skin Game, and instead of feeling stoked that I have new Dresden to speculate about, I just find myself hoping the next one's better. It needed an editor so badly. There's precious little narrative there in the first place, and yet Butcher wastes paragraphs and paragraphs going over the same things we already know repeatedly, sometimes even within the same chapter. He returns to the same descriptions of the same pointless things over and over again. For instance, how many times do we need
    Harry to explain to us that Lara makes him feel like a caveman? How many times do we need him to vaguely, uncomfortably imply thoughts of sexual aggression or violence? How many times do we need him casually ogling Justine or Hope Carpenter or some other random woman for us? How many times do we need him to explain that the Winter Mantle juices him up? We get it. Hell, I'm almost certain he exactly described something about Lara as "made me want to beat my chest and howl" at least twice without variance, which is precisely the kind of thing an editor is supposed to see, grab you by the collar, and rub your nose in while whispering, no.

    It'd be one thing if he hit a few of these notes once in the first half to remind us of key points since, after all, it has been 6 years. But the way he handled it all was frankly baffling to me.

    I predict that Peace Talks and Battle Ground would have made an excellent single book, if a bit long for Butcher's usual standards, by trimming out the dumb stuff and simply treating it as a huge event entry in the series, a la Changes. But then, it feels like he made the decision to split the story in two, and had to do the equivalent of when a college student makes their paper longer by adding repetitive sentences and increasing the font size.

    I was entertained. But I expect more from this series, and I didn't get it this time.

    This is a little late, as I just finished the book and am catching up on this thread, but this post pretty much sums my feelings up.


    Some of his ickiness really got to me. Especially
    When he "noticed" Ivy suddenly had hips...it came off as incredibly creepy


    Also, as others have said many times:
    Harry certainly seems to be more needly aggressive than normal, and it's just comes off as unnecessary and somewhat out of character


    That said, I have a pet theory. I could be wrong, but I hope I'm not, because the alternative is that I might just stop reading the series because of the creep factor.
    Harry hinted a couple times that the winter mantle amps him up and what not. But he also mentioned a couple times, or theorized others may think about him, that the mantle is more subtle and insidious..that he may not even realize he's being manipulated. Perhaps...maybe...he's slowly succumbing to the winter mantle and doesn't even notice.

    At least that's my theory to explain how beyond gross he was at times in this book.

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  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    i think part of the ongoing problem is that we have a very clear "hero" figure. He has flaws but we understand why he has those flaws. In the universe, they make sense. When the hero acts out of character, we need an in universe explanation and "guessing" it's something is not satisfying. Peace Talks had a whole lot of characters act outside of their expected behavioral patterns. And nothing was confirmed or denied, which is just frustrating.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    The first two chapters of the new book are up through Tor’s newsletter, and probably other sources.

    It features
    Lara and a lot of tentacles,
    so that’s a thing.

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  • RingoRingo He/Him Bury me at Lone Tree DenRegistered User regular
    Y-yay?

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Shadowhope wrote: »
    The first two chapters of the new book are up through Tor’s newsletter, and probably other sources.

    It features
    Lara and a lot of tentacles,
    so that’s a thing.
    I'm going to pretend this is handled tastefully until I read it.

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  • StraygatsbyStraygatsby Registered User regular
    Don't worry - Tor hired an intimacy consultant after The Tentacles expressed some concerns.

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  • GiantGeek2020GiantGeek2020 Registered User regular
    Don't worry - Tor hired an intimacy consultant after The Tentacles expressed some concerns.

    Yeah it's fine. The only thing I can say is that Jim apparently is trying to take the level of batshit crazy we got in Changes and make us say "Ah, so that was half-power."

    3. A surprisingly small number of adults have attempted the largely successful, “Punch the small children to escape” tactic.
    Shadowhope
  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Don't worry - Tor hired an intimacy consultant after The Tentacles expressed some concerns.

    Yeah it's fine. The only thing I can say is that Jim apparently is trying to take the level of batshit crazy we got in Changes and make us say "Ah, so that was half-power."

    Butcher has always loved his power creep. I guess it's inevitable he'd go for the over 9000 at some point.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Don't worry - Tor hired an intimacy consultant after The Tentacles expressed some concerns.

    Yeah it's fine. The only thing I can say is that Jim apparently is trying to take the level of batshit crazy we got in Changes and make us say "Ah, so that was half-power."

    Butcher has always loved his power creep. I guess it's inevitable he'd go for the over 9000 at some point.

    I fully expect Dresden to fight and dethrone a god by the end of the books.

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Don't worry - Tor hired an intimacy consultant after The Tentacles expressed some concerns.

    Yeah it's fine. The only thing I can say is that Jim apparently is trying to take the level of batshit crazy we got in Changes and make us say "Ah, so that was half-power."

    Butcher has always loved his power creep. I guess it's inevitable he'd go for the over 9000 at some point.

    I fully expect Dresden to fight and dethrone a god by the end of the books.
    Well, he beat Santa down to claim The Wild Hunt, but I guess Odin kept his throne there.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
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  • iguanacusiguanacus Desert PlanetRegistered User regular
    see317 wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Don't worry - Tor hired an intimacy consultant after The Tentacles expressed some concerns.

    Yeah it's fine. The only thing I can say is that Jim apparently is trying to take the level of batshit crazy we got in Changes and make us say "Ah, so that was half-power."

    Butcher has always loved his power creep. I guess it's inevitable he'd go for the over 9000 at some point.

    I fully expect Dresden to fight and dethrone a god by the end of the books.
    Well, he beat Santa down to claim The Wild Hunt, but I guess Odin kept his throne there.
    He threw the fight really so Harry could lead the Hunt

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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    iguanacus wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    see317 wrote: »
    Don't worry - Tor hired an intimacy consultant after The Tentacles expressed some concerns.

    Yeah it's fine. The only thing I can say is that Jim apparently is trying to take the level of batshit crazy we got in Changes and make us say "Ah, so that was half-power."

    Butcher has always loved his power creep. I guess it's inevitable he'd go for the over 9000 at some point.

    I fully expect Dresden to fight and dethrone a god by the end of the books.
    Well, he beat Santa down to claim The Wild Hunt, but I guess Odin kept his throne there.
    He threw the fight really so Harry could lead the Hunt
    Yeah, but Harry still had to make it believable. The hunt wouldn't have followed him if it was painfully obvious that Santa threw the fight.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    Battle Ground trailer is out:



    Also, Jim did a reddit AMA a week or two ago, and in it, he dropped a hint that Bob's "parents" have both appeared in the series already.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/Fantasy/comments/iekfx9/comment/g2hfi3o

    Lots to speculate.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    jimbutcherauthor AMA Author Jim Butcher 284 points 16 days ago I'm Deceased Silver

    Wow, really? I thought it was obvious.

    Both of Bob's parents have appeared in the Dresden Files. :)

    Yeah, no, not obvious.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • TarantioTarantio Registered User regular
    Jim really seems to relish trolling his readers.

    The best guess I've seen about Bob (spoilers up to Skin Game)
    revolves around Bob's mysterious past with the Winter court, Mab knowing what was growing in Harry's head and how to fix it, and Mab mentioning that Anduriel (Nicodemus' fallen angel) lent her "the services of his... associate" long ago.

    I think most people assumed that the associate was Nicodemus himself, but it could be any one of the Fallen. And since the one example of a spirit of intellect we have was born from the shade of a fallen angel in a mortal's head, Bob having resulted from some fallen angel and some character from Winter seems at least plausible.

  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Could be, though
    I wouldn't be too sure about Mab's knowledge of 'the parasite' being solid evidence. The high level immortals generally seem to have crazy amounts of knowledge about all sorts of things. It might mean that she was involved with something like this previously, it might just mean that that it's just part of stuff she knows because she's Queen freaking Mab and has been around for a few millenia.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Registered User regular
    Vague spoiler from that AMA
    Butcher wrote:
    I'm going to hold off on dragon info until we get to the dragon book. If you'd asked me this question 15 years ago I'd have answered it readily, because 20 years is just too long to wait. But now it's maybe 5 years off, and I know you guys can make it that long. :)

    Guys, we're going to get a bunch of dragon stuff in the next book!

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  • RhinocerousRhinocerous Registered User regular
    Vague spoiler from that AMA
    Butcher wrote:
    I'm going to hold off on dragon info until we get to the dragon book. If you'd asked me this question 15 years ago I'd have answered it readily, because 20 years is just too long to wait. But now it's maybe 5 years off, and I know you guys can make it that long. :)

    Guys, we're going to get a bunch of dragon stuff in the next book!

    I mean, given who was at that meeting,
    namely Ferrovax, I would be both surprised and disappointed if we didn't.

    Elvenshae
  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Vague spoiler from that AMA
    Butcher wrote:
    I'm going to hold off on dragon info until we get to the dragon book. If you'd asked me this question 15 years ago I'd have answered it readily, because 20 years is just too long to wait. But now it's maybe 5 years off, and I know you guys can make it that long. :)

    Guys, we're going to get a bunch of dragon stuff in the next book!

    I mean, given who was at that meeting,
    namely Ferrovax, I would be both surprised and disappointed if we didn't.

    Yeah
    I've been dying to know what Ferrovax's deal was since he showed up in like, book 2? 3?

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    Vague spoiler from that AMA
    Butcher wrote:
    I'm going to hold off on dragon info until we get to the dragon book. If you'd asked me this question 15 years ago I'd have answered it readily, because 20 years is just too long to wait. But now it's maybe 5 years off, and I know you guys can make it that long. :)

    Guys, we're going to get a bunch of dragon stuff in the next book!

    I mean, given who was at that meeting,
    namely Ferrovax, I would be both surprised and disappointed if we didn't.

    Yeah
    I've been dying to know what Ferrovax's deal was since he showed up in like, book 2? 3?
    I think he originally didn't have much of one besides some background and that dragons are obvious big players given how early that was - dragons haven't figured into the stories much beyond that appearance and how Michael and Charity met.

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  • RingoRingo He/Him Bury me at Lone Tree DenRegistered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    jimbutcherauthor AMA Author Jim Butcher 284 points 16 days ago I'm Deceased Silver

    Wow, really? I thought it was obvious.

    Both of Bob's parents have appeared in the Dresden Files. :)

    Yeah, no, not obvious.

    Oh it's totally obvious:
    Bob's parents are (ghost) Molly and Harry, from when Harry becomes Cowl but doesn't 'arrive' until Harry becomes Kemmler.

    Bonea and Maggie become the first Archive when Harry becomes OG Merlin and builds Demonreach, but he gets bushwhacked by Summercourt Murphy/Nimue and sent forward in time again, where he sits out fighting himself as Kemmler, annoys the Gatekeeper to no end, and pals around with Ebenezer McCoy, all under the guise of "Simon Petrovovich". His wizard's lair is called Archangel because it's the opposite of Demonreach: it's where he imprisons Uriel and company.

    Not convoluted at all!

    Sterica wrote: »
    I know my last visit to my grandpa on his deathbed was to find out how the whole Nazi werewolf thing turned out.
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  • see317see317 Registered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    daveNYC wrote: »
    jimbutcherauthor AMA Author Jim Butcher 284 points 16 days ago I'm Deceased Silver

    Wow, really? I thought it was obvious.

    Both of Bob's parents have appeared in the Dresden Files. :)

    Yeah, no, not obvious.

    Oh it's totally obvious:
    Bob's parents are (ghost) Molly and Harry, from when Harry becomes Cowl but doesn't 'arrive' until Harry becomes Kemmler.

    Bonea and Maggie become the first Archive when Harry becomes OG Merlin and builds Demonreach, but he gets bushwhacked by Summercourt Murphy/Nimue and sent forward in time again, where he sits out fighting himself as Kemmler, annoys the Gatekeeper to no end, and pals around with Ebenezer McCoy, all under the guise of "Simon Petrovovich". His wizard's lair is called Archangel because it's the opposite of Demonreach: it's where he imprisons Uriel and company.

    Not convoluted at all!
    Chances it's Nicodemus and Margaret?
    I mean, Harry's already got one half brother, may as well get him a second.

    Ringo wrote: »
    Well except what see317 said. That guy's always wrong.
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