What's the spoiler policy here for like, Battleground and earlier?
Also, use spoilers for major events or twist. If you are discussing the new book put everything in spoilers for the newest book, some folks gotta work for a livin'. For older books try to keep it to minor stuff unspoiled and major stuff spoiled. You may discuss relationships unspoiled, if and only if it isn't breaking any of the previous rules. And the same goes for speculatin'. Other than that enjoy the thread.
Its in the OP which I guess at this point I wrote a decade ago. Don't spoil the newest full book. Try to be good around big stuff because there are folks who do wander in who aren't through the series and just reading it. This isn't a fully open spoiler thread.
Did you all know there's a new novella out? Called "The Law" that takes place after the battle of Chicago? It's a delightful little read, I just finished it and really enjoyed it.
Is it better than the Toot story in Heroic Hearts?
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38thDoelets never be stupid againwait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered Userregular
Ugh release another anthology I haven’t heard of either of those. What books are they in?
Did you all know there's a new novella out? Called "The Law" that takes place after the battle of Chicago? It's a delightful little read, I just finished it and really enjoyed it.
Is it better than the Toot story in Heroic Hearts?
Toot's story was fine and a nice break from all of the grimdark stuff happening to Dresden.+
Okay so I liked Peace Talks and Battle Ground for the most part. The power creep has gotten a little silly, but whatever.
I thought that Justine and Marcone reveals were uninteresting. Justine as a portal for Nemesis was....whatever, but dedicating an entire book to how we cannot permit Marcone to become a Denarian and his great character explanation how he would never submit to a Fallen only to find out he's been carrying one in his head for like five books was lame as hell.
It invalidates one of Marcone's best moments when Nicodemus offers him a job and Marcone responds that he was about to say the same thing to Nick.
Okay so I liked Peace Talks and Battle Ground for the most part. The power creep has gotten a little silly, but whatever.
I thought that Justine and Marcone reveals were uninteresting. Justine as a portal for Nemesis was....whatever, but dedicating an entire book to how we cannot permit Marcone to become a Denarian and his great character explanation how he would never submit to a Fallen only to find out he's been carrying one in his head for like five books was lame as hell.
It invalidates one of Marcone's best moments when Nicodemus offers him a job and Marcone responds that he was about to say the same thing to Nick.
Battle Grounds/Peace Talks:
The Denarians aren't a united front and Marcone sure as fuck doesn't work for Niccodemus. At this point I'm pretty sure half the Denarians are pissed as fuck at what Nicco did in Skin Game.
At the time the books came out it prompted me to go and reread the book where he gets the coin and it is clearly foreshadowed. That's been in the works for a long while.
Okay so I liked Peace Talks and Battle Ground for the most part. The power creep has gotten a little silly, but whatever.
I thought that Justine and Marcone reveals were uninteresting. Justine as a portal for Nemesis was....whatever, but dedicating an entire book to how we cannot permit Marcone to become a Denarian and his great character explanation how he would never submit to a Fallen only to find out he's been carrying one in his head for like five books was lame as hell.
It invalidates one of Marcone's best moments when Nicodemus offers him a job and Marcone responds that he was about to say the same thing to Nick.
Battle Grounds/Peace Talks:
The Denarians aren't a united front and Marcone sure as fuck doesn't work for Niccodemus. At this point I'm pretty sure half the Denarians are pissed as fuck at what Nicco did in Skin Game.
At the time the books came out it prompted me to go and reread the book where he gets the coin and it is clearly foreshadowed. That's been in the works for a long while.
No, I get all that. I've reread the series everytime a new book has come out since Ghost Story.
I still think it's lame as hell.
I am in the business of saving lives.
+1
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Okay so I liked Peace Talks and Battle Ground for the most part. The power creep has gotten a little silly, but whatever.
I thought that Justine and Marcone reveals were uninteresting. Justine as a portal for Nemesis was....whatever, but dedicating an entire book to how we cannot permit Marcone to become a Denarian and his great character explanation how he would never submit to a Fallen only to find out he's been carrying one in his head for like five books was lame as hell.
It invalidates one of Marcone's best moments when Nicodemus offers him a job and Marcone responds that he was about to say the same thing to Nick.
Battle Grounds/Peace Talks:
The Denarians aren't a united front and Marcone sure as fuck doesn't work for Niccodemus. At this point I'm pretty sure half the Denarians are pissed as fuck at what Nicco did in Skin Game.
At the time the books came out it prompted me to go and reread the book where he gets the coin and it is clearly foreshadowed. That's been in the works for a long while.
The Denarians
were sorta united in the sense that Nicodemus and Anduriel were professionals who were generally successful at advancing the group's vague apocalypse related goals. There was factionalism between him and Tessa, but the general vibe I got was that Nicky and Andy could call on the others to get stuff done if needed. After Skin Game though he's just covered with looser stink. He sacrificed his daughter, achieved none of his goals, his actions led to the recreation of one of the swords, and he ran from it. None of that looks good on the CV, and that's not even counting that his wife wants him dead. I'd guess that the current state of the Denarians is basically a Team Tessa and then just every Fallen for themselves.
I do sort of wonder what the Denarians' goal(s) are. Spreading pain and misery and generally doing evil things is what they do, but as beings as old as creation it'd be nice if they had something that was a little more fleshed out.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I'm assuming Nicodemus, and maybe even Anduriel, believe deep down in their heart-and-heart-equivalent that whatever they're up to is the Right Thing being done for the Right Reason. It makes sense that Nick's going to be playing his cards close to his chest given the goal is "literally the apocalypse," but given how many books we've had with him it's a little frustrating that about the only things we know past that are that he's worried about the Black Council and considered destroying the Red Court a requirement for his long-term goals.
Post-Skin Game Nickelheads
I'm pretty sure Skin Game broke the Denarians. After that fiasco they're likely in a miniature civil war between anyone still loyal to Nicodemus and anyone on Team Tessa, and as a few others might just go "fuck this I'm out" generally. Given that's not just the Fallen still at large but their network of servants, that will probably get quite messy.
As it will get quite messy, you know Harry's going to be dropped into the middle of it eventually!
I assume Beelzemarcone will stay independent and/or kick off his own faction within them; his taking a coin was dodgy enough and I really can't see Butcher just reducing him to yet another coin transportation device should the Fallen take the driver's seat.
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Yeah, like let's acknowledge the fact that (re: marcone post Battle Grounds)
Marcone didn't just have the coin, he also had a relic weapon like harry. He was literally the Plan B for this battle if Harry fell. Marcone is still an asshat but he's not working with Nick
I have to say, just finished reading The Law and it was pretty great. Reads like one of the side threads that goes with a main story (like the mundane things he’s having to trace along with the supernatural). It’s better written than I expected and I feel like Harry’s actually grown some because of what he’s gone through. 100% worth purchasing - or getting a trial to Kindle Unlimited, which is what I did.
I have to say, just finished reading The Law and it was pretty great. Reads like one of the side threads that goes with a main story (like the mundane things he’s having to trace along with the supernatural). It’s better written than I expected and I feel like Harry’s actually grown some because of what he’s gone through. 100% worth purchasing - or getting a trial to Kindle Unlimited, which is what I did.
I have missed Harry tackling what should be an utterly mundane problem and finding himself suddenly over his head.
Seems like lately he's started his books over his head, skipping that first bit.
Yeah, like let's acknowledge the fact that (re: marcone post Battle Grounds)
Marcone didn't just have the coin, he also had a relic weapon like harry. He was literally the Plan B for this battle if Harry fell. Marcone is still an asshat but he's not working with Nick
No he didn't? It was just a knife. It worked because it was being driven by infernal power.
Harry's entire life, from his family, to how he learned magic, until current times, is just Harry being over his head and answering the question "What the hell do I do now?!?"
Harry's entire life, from his family, to how he learned magic, until current times, is just Harry being over his head and answering the question "What the hell do I do now?!?"
Yeah but a lot of that has been hinted at or outright revealed that he's been a pawn in other people's plans from before he was born. "I don't know how I got into this mess" or "I haven't a clue what to do next" is a lot less meaningful when the answer is, "Someone put you there, specifically, to fill a purpose"
At least for me it has shifted my perceptions of Harry over time
my review of The Law
Non-spoiler review: It's very good, not perfect but 4.5 out of 5 level. It calls back to the old novels where it's closer to a detective story with magic and potential romance (that never pays off). There are some flubs and you definitely should be familiar with the books up to this point to understand all the things it has going on. It's rough in places, but it felt like a step up from the writing in battle grounds/peace talks.
spoiler review
I was glad to see a small story that tied in Bob and Mab and Marcone and even acknowledged the aftermath. Introducing two new powerful forces, the unnamed and the lawyer who just happens to probably be someone magical/special but we don't know for sure, was nice. I was also glad that harry didn't end up with another potential romance so quickly. I think it's great that jim is acknowledging how messed up losing Murphy is to Harry. It shouldn't last forever but it shouldn't be tossed out at the first chance. I was worried that we were going to have Lara stuff so i'm glad that is postponed.
all in all, i'd love to see more mystery/detective work going on. This one was maybe just a smidge too short and wrapped up "cleanly".
Well how he got it to wrap up that way was well done - for the novellas at least. I have read the Majority of them (Maybe 2-3 I have not) and yet vary greatly in quality and don’t have much substance, even for a short story. The feel more like writing obligations for a job rather than something enjoyable to read. This was at least on par with how his books feel - in my opinion at least.
Well how he got it to wrap up that way was well done - for the novellas at least. I have read the Majority of them (Maybe 2-3 I have not) and yet vary greatly in quality and don’t have much substance, even for a short story. The feel more like writing obligations for a job rather than something enjoyable to read. This was at least on par with how his books feel - in my opinion at least.
I felt like a lot of Butcher's short stories were written for fun more than publication. One of his biggest strengths in writing is pacing novel-length stuff, but sometimes a novelist is going to get smaller-scale ideas they want out of their head even if the result isn't going to be as strong. A lot of the shorts I've read feel a lot more, well, self-indulgent than the main stories, but that's the kind of thing that happens if you get a smaller idea and write it out for kicks.
His novella-length stuff, like The Law or Aftermath, starts feeling solid again, probably because he's got what's to him enough room to comfortably work with compared to the short stories.
my review of The Law
Non-spoiler review: It's very good, not perfect but 4.5 out of 5 level. It calls back to the old novels where it's closer to a detective story with magic and potential romance (that never pays off). There are some flubs and you definitely should be familiar with the books up to this point to understand all the things it has going on. It's rough in places, but it felt like a step up from the writing in battle grounds/peace talks.
spoiler review
I was glad to see a small story that tied in Bob and Mab and Marcone and even acknowledged the aftermath. Introducing two new powerful forces, the unnamed and the lawyer who just happens to probably be someone magical/special but we don't know for sure, was nice. I was also glad that harry didn't end up with another potential romance so quickly. I think it's great that jim is acknowledging how messed up losing Murphy is to Harry. It shouldn't last forever but it shouldn't be tossed out at the first chance. I was worried that we were going to have Lara stuff so i'm glad that is postponed.
all in all, i'd love to see more mystery/detective work going on. This one was maybe just a smidge too short and wrapped up "cleanly".
Yes. More mystery/detective work.
Less breaking into Hades bank vault and stealing holy relics to protect the world against ancient gods.
I love the low stakes of this story.
If Harry fails, yeah, it sucks for the tutors and their kids, but it's not the end of the world.
But it brings to mind one of the older short stories where Harry does a day doing seemingly inconsequential good deeds and Michael points how that these minor good deeds have literally changed the world for the better for a lot of people.
Power creep seems inevitable in longer running book series, but Butcher seems particularly susceptible to it. If you've read his Codex Alera series...
+3
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amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
Yeah, like let's acknowledge the fact that (re: marcone post Battle Grounds)
Marcone didn't just have the coin, he also had a relic weapon like harry. He was literally the Plan B for this battle if Harry fell. Marcone is still an asshat but he's not working with Nick
No he didn't? It was just a knife. It worked because it was being driven by infernal power.
I mean the spear of destiny was just a flat leaf shape on a wooden handle driven by divine power. I'm saying Marcone went straight to the source and made a deal with Lucifer itself.
I often feel like Butcher sometimes just ignores the basic Harry is Scary Powerful thing. It was nice for the story to take the time to deal with how it didn't matter here. It was hilarious to see Harry being stymied by all these subtle alliances and obligations for awhile before solving it by making the situation MORE complicated with alliances and obligations.
Still uncertain how far Mab not caring if Harry gets himself merced is something she wants him to believe rather than something that is actually true.
I often feel like Butcher sometimes just ignores the basic Harry is Scary Powerful thing. It was nice for the story to take the time to deal with how it didn't matter here. It was hilarious to see Harry being stymied by all these subtle alliances and obligations for awhile before solving it by making the situation MORE complicated with alliances and obligations.
Still uncertain how far Mab not caring if Harry gets himself merced is something she wants him to believe rather than something that is actually true.
Mab is full of shit with the whole "I don't care if you die or not" shtick. She's gone out of her way more than once, using Fae Law as tissue paper thin justification. A lot of her strength is entirely predicated on Harry.
I often feel like Butcher sometimes just ignores the basic Harry is Scary Powerful thing. It was nice for the story to take the time to deal with how it didn't matter here. It was hilarious to see Harry being stymied by all these subtle alliances and obligations for awhile before solving it by making the situation MORE complicated with alliances and obligations.
Still uncertain how far Mab not caring if Harry gets himself merced is something she wants him to believe rather than something that is actually true.
Mab is full of shit with the whole "I don't care if you die or not" shtick. She's gone out of her way more than once, using Fae Law as tissue paper thin justification. A lot of her strength is entirely predicated on Harry.
Yeah but,
while I agree it's more schtick than truth (she's shown signs she likes Harry personally and if she really didn't care she wouldn't have spent months keeping his mortally wounded body going. Plus she needs him for whatever she has in mind for his destiny. Buuut, Mab is still Mab. If she thought Harry dying would keep the world safe from outsiders, then she'd kill him/send him to his doom/ ritually sacrifice him, etc. Outside of not killing Maeve, Mab is very much the kind of person who will shoot old yeller if need be.
But it is mostly a schtick to keep him from relying too much on her. Mab has no use for a knight she has to coddle. Mab helps those who help themselves.
Butcher has always played with Harry's POV being a POV and him getting things wrong.
The Law Specifics:
So let's examine the initial Winter Winter confrontation. Harry completely misunderstood how serious a fight he was picking there but was he really out of his weight class? Sure, Harry wasn't expecting a demigod on the other end but we know at least partly gods like that are powered by belief/awe of mortals and not having a name is a huge PR hit. Harry wasn't packing all his tools but if he was, if he'd prepped Demonreach and had a relic or two on him, if he actually took this fight seriously...do you really think Nameless wasn't going to sweat it?
I'd actually love to see that scene from the opposite POV. Even if WW thought he could win the immediate fight he has got to be worried about consequences for him from Mab, Marcone, and just like half the supernatural world who inexplicably like Harry.
amateurhourOne day I'll be professionalhourThe woods somewhere in TennesseeRegistered Userregular
I don't think he's gonna stick to the original plan of another 3-4 books plus a final trilogy.
I think there might be one or two more books and then it's endgame. Shit's kinda ramped up now to the point that I don't think Butcher has another decade of Dresden stories.
I kinda hope Dresden Files gets adapted into an animated series some day.
I say animated because you don't have to worry as much about aging actors. Also, if they tried to do it live-action I get the feeling we'd just end up with a lot of fights happening off-screen or getting significantly toned down because "Harry throws a fireball" wasn't in the budget for that episode.
We got Harry weirding a hockey stick last time they did live action. Some people loved it, I couldn’t stand it. Only a couple episodes even followed any of the book plot. Felt like a real mess.
Yeah I didn't really even make it past the first episode of the live-action Dresden files.
The hockey stick thing just seemed dumb as hell to me, too. Dresden never tries to disguise the fact that he's a fucking wizard. It could've even been a running joke for the series where people are like "What's with the big stick?" and Harry's just, "It's my wizard staff." Queue awkward pause, long stare, etc. etc.
Honestly, what turned me off from the show wasn’t the hockey stick itself, that was part of it though, it was what they did to Bob. He no longer was a wise cracking Know it all, they turned him British and proper and into a human Spirit with a horrible name.
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Its in the OP which I guess at this point I wrote a decade ago. Don't spoil the newest full book. Try to be good around big stuff because there are folks who do wander in who aren't through the series and just reading it. This isn't a fully open spoiler thread.
And spoil the new novella please.
Is it better than the Toot story in Heroic Hearts?
The Law's a standalone.
Toot's story was fine and a nice break from all of the grimdark stuff happening to Dresden.+
It invalidates one of Marcone's best moments when Nicodemus offers him a job and Marcone responds that he was about to say the same thing to Nick.
Battle Grounds/Peace Talks:
At the time the books came out it prompted me to go and reread the book where he gets the coin and it is clearly foreshadowed. That's been in the works for a long while.
No, I get all that. I've reread the series everytime a new book has come out since Ghost Story.
I still think it's lame as hell.
The Denarians
I do sort of wonder what the Denarians' goal(s) are. Spreading pain and misery and generally doing evil things is what they do, but as beings as old as creation it'd be nice if they had something that was a little more fleshed out.
Post-Skin Game Nickelheads
As it will get quite messy, you know Harry's going to be dropped into the middle of it eventually!
I assume Beelzemarcone will stay independent and/or kick off his own faction within them; his taking a coin was dodgy enough and I really can't see Butcher just reducing him to yet another coin transportation device should the Fallen take the driver's seat.
Seems like lately he's started his books over his head, skipping that first bit.
The editing in this one feels off. For example, “Bob burbled” was used twice in the span of three lines.
Yeah but a lot of that has been hinted at or outright revealed that he's been a pawn in other people's plans from before he was born. "I don't know how I got into this mess" or "I haven't a clue what to do next" is a lot less meaningful when the answer is, "Someone put you there, specifically, to fill a purpose"
At least for me it has shifted my perceptions of Harry over time
Non-spoiler review: It's very good, not perfect but 4.5 out of 5 level. It calls back to the old novels where it's closer to a detective story with magic and potential romance (that never pays off). There are some flubs and you definitely should be familiar with the books up to this point to understand all the things it has going on. It's rough in places, but it felt like a step up from the writing in battle grounds/peace talks.
spoiler review
all in all, i'd love to see more mystery/detective work going on. This one was maybe just a smidge too short and wrapped up "cleanly".
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I felt like a lot of Butcher's short stories were written for fun more than publication. One of his biggest strengths in writing is pacing novel-length stuff, but sometimes a novelist is going to get smaller-scale ideas they want out of their head even if the result isn't going to be as strong. A lot of the shorts I've read feel a lot more, well, self-indulgent than the main stories, but that's the kind of thing that happens if you get a smaller idea and write it out for kicks.
His novella-length stuff, like The Law or Aftermath, starts feeling solid again, probably because he's got what's to him enough room to comfortably work with compared to the short stories.
Yes. More mystery/detective work.
Less breaking into Hades bank vault and stealing holy relics to protect the world against ancient gods.
I love the low stakes of this story.
But it brings to mind one of the older short stories where Harry does a day doing seemingly inconsequential good deeds and Michael points how that these minor good deeds have literally changed the world for the better for a lot of people.
Still uncertain how far Mab not caring if Harry gets himself merced is something she wants him to believe rather than something that is actually true.
Yeah but,
But it is mostly a schtick to keep him from relying too much on her. Mab has no use for a knight she has to coddle. Mab helps those who help themselves.
The Law Specifics:
I'd actually love to see that scene from the opposite POV. Even if WW thought he could win the immediate fight he has got to be worried about consequences for him from Mab, Marcone, and just like half the supernatural world who inexplicably like Harry.
Might get rolled into another short story anthology at some point.
edit: or it'll just be added to the next book like the last short story was.
I think there might be one or two more books and then it's endgame. Shit's kinda ramped up now to the point that I don't think Butcher has another decade of Dresden stories.
I say animated because you don't have to worry as much about aging actors. Also, if they tried to do it live-action I get the feeling we'd just end up with a lot of fights happening off-screen or getting significantly toned down because "Harry throws a fireball" wasn't in the budget for that episode.
The hockey stick thing just seemed dumb as hell to me, too. Dresden never tries to disguise the fact that he's a fucking wizard. It could've even been a running joke for the series where people are like "What's with the big stick?" and Harry's just, "It's my wizard staff." Queue awkward pause, long stare, etc. etc.
See for yourself:
Probably trying to evade automated copyright detection.