But I had a buddy who's a cop try to convince me that the shooting of John T. Williams here a few years back was justified. Not on the merits, but because "if he knows how to write it, it's justified." And he actually seemed to think I'd agree with this, like it was obvious. That's the bubble he lived in.
Every cop knows the boilerplate they have to put to get the nod. And the always have. And it's finally coming back to bite them.
Sorry, I'm at a point now where I just assume all cops are lying now. Maybe that'll change sometime soon.
Is "If he knows how to write it, it's justified" better or worse than "We'll all say that we saw it and he had his hands up"?
There are bad cops out there. There are also bad black men out there. Saying "some cops are bad so I assume they're all bad" is no different from saying "some black men are bad so I assume they're all bad".
Well except that the cops are using their authority to get away with killing people for no good reason.
Or put them in jail for no good reason.
Or kill them once they're in jail for no good reason, for bonus points.
Also, from extensive personal experience, it's not that some cops are bad. It's that most cops are bad. Assuming "covering for other cops that act unethically" is considered "bad."
Maybe I've just been really unlucky when it comes to the cops I know and have had dealings with. But given the stories I've seen about what happens to those that cross the Blue Line, I suspect not. The Blue Line is, arguably, made almost entirely of bad cops. It's what makes them bad.
So yeah, I'm much more forgiving when a community jumps to conclusions when the Blue Line takes somebody from them under suspicious circumstances. Even if it results in some civil unrest.
RE: most cops are bad, I find, much like racism, this is an easy attitude to maintain when you don't have friends or family associated with them. It's a humanizing factor. There are plenty of good ones and plenty of bad ones, many shitty ones and some truly heroic ones and many just... normal people trying to do a hard and stressful job the best way they can.
In short, I'd hope a thread about racism can see the bias and dangers included in painting a whole group of people with one broad brush.
One of my family friends since I was like 10 is a
cop. My neighbor is a cop. I worked with cops very closely and for a long period of time. I have plenty I could call a friend, and I have no need to worry about getting into trouble in certain parts of town since I am friends with the police chief.
Most cops are bad under his construct. They will always cover for bad cops and punish anyone who doesn't play ball. A friend of mine refused to illegally falsify a report in a way that would imply he was present at the time of the arrest. He was suddenly transfered to a new supervisor, had past performance reviews changed to be negative, got dinged for every minor offense and then fired. Cops need a huge reform.
But I had a buddy who's a cop try to convince me that the shooting of John T. Williams here a few years back was justified. Not on the merits, but because "if he knows how to write it, it's justified." And he actually seemed to think I'd agree with this, like it was obvious. That's the bubble he lived in.
Every cop knows the boilerplate they have to put to get the nod. And the always have. And it's finally coming back to bite them.
Sorry, I'm at a point now where I just assume all cops are lying now. Maybe that'll change sometime soon.
Is "If he knows how to write it, it's justified" better or worse than "We'll all say that we saw it and he had his hands up"?
There are bad cops out there. There are also bad black men out there. Saying "some cops are bad so I assume they're all bad" is no different from saying "some black men are bad so I assume they're all bad".
Well except that the cops are using their authority to get away with killing people for no good reason.
Or put them in jail for no good reason.
Or kill them once they're in jail for no good reason, for bonus points.
Also, from extensive personal experience, it's not that some cops are bad. It's that most cops are bad. Assuming "covering for other cops that act unethically" is considered "bad."
Maybe I've just been really unlucky when it comes to the cops I know and have had dealings with. But given the stories I've seen about what happens to those that cross the Blue Line, I suspect not. The Blue Line is, arguably, made almost entirely of bad cops. It's what makes them bad.
So yeah, I'm much more forgiving when a community jumps to conclusions when the Blue Line takes somebody from them under suspicious circumstances. Even if it results in some civil unrest.
RE: most cops are bad, I find, much like racism, this is an easy attitude to maintain when you don't have friends or family associated with them. It's a humanizing factor. There are plenty of good ones and plenty of bad ones, many shitty ones and some truly heroic ones and many just... normal people trying to do a hard and stressful job the best way they can.
In short, I'd hope a thread about racism can see the bias and dangers included in painting a whole group of people with one broad brush.
One of my family friends since I was like 10 is a
cop. My neighbor is a cop. I worked with cops very closely and for a long period of time. I have plenty I could call a friend, and I have no need to worry about getting into trouble in certain parts of town since I am friends with the police chief.
Most cops are bad under his construct. They will always cover for bad cops and punish anyone who doesn't play ball. A friend of mine refused to illegally falsify a report in a way that would imply he was present at the time of the arrest. He was suddenly transfered to a new supervisor, had past performance reviews changed to be negative, got dinged for every minor offense and then fired. Cops need a huge reform.
I would argue that "cops need a huge reform" is markedly different from "all/most cops are bad cops/people".
Putting how many of them are actually in the United States vs how many you have seen, met, interacted with or seen in the news... yeah that's some pretty gross generalization.
Putting how many of them are actually in the United States vs how many you have seen, met, interacted with or seen in the news... yeah that's some pretty gross generalization.
No small amount of ink has been spilled in this country talking about whether or not law enforcement culture has issues with dealing with malfeasance within their ranks.
I'll take two sides to the coin over a side where both sides are "cops can shoot people for no good reason and nobody gives a shit."
Instead we've moved to "As soon as a cop shoots a black man for any reason we immediately assume it was unjustified, take to the streets, and shut the city down".
This doesn't strike me as improvement.
Yes. It's as though people identifying there's a problem and trying to get the government to do something about it doesn't automatically and immediately solve that same problem.
They may be two sides of the same coin, but previously, the coin was one-sided. That is, it wasn't even a coin. Now that we're actually having a debate, one which involves TWO sides, you seem to be upset that the debate is happening at all. Somehow, for some reason, you expect BLM to be the ones to have all the solutions, to be their own saviours from y'on hither, to be better than the police, and then somehow magically convince those in power with authority to implement all their brilliant reform ideas through the magical power of persuasion, and that's just pants-on-head backwards.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
Putting how many of them are actually in the United States vs how many you have seen, met, interacted with or seen in the news... yeah that's some pretty gross generalization.
No small amount of ink has been spilled in this country talking about whether or not law enforcement culture has issues with dealing with malfeasance within their ranks.
I don't get why the police don't get the same rules-of-engagement training as the army does. It's not like that training is especially expensive. I believe it was elsewhere on this forum i heard it described as a piece of paper that every soldier was required to carry around with them to remind them of the steps they had to take before opening fire, every time.
It should be that simple for cops. Unless they have *already* been shot at, they have to exhaust the de-escalation steps, or it's an administrative punishment or a termination depending on the results of an unlawful discharge.
But I had a buddy who's a cop try to convince me that the shooting of John T. Williams here a few years back was justified. Not on the merits, but because "if he knows how to write it, it's justified." And he actually seemed to think I'd agree with this, like it was obvious. That's the bubble he lived in.
Every cop knows the boilerplate they have to put to get the nod. And the always have. And it's finally coming back to bite them.
Sorry, I'm at a point now where I just assume all cops are lying now. Maybe that'll change sometime soon.
Is "If he knows how to write it, it's justified" better or worse than "We'll all say that we saw it and he had his hands up"?
There are bad cops out there. There are also bad black men out there. Saying "some cops are bad so I assume they're all bad" is no different from saying "some black men are bad so I assume they're all bad".
It is different. You can choose not to be a cop. You can choose not to cover for bad cops and regain the trust you have lost. You can choose not to fight every effort to hold you accountable to even a basic standard of decency.
I personally hate this logic train as it portrays minorities as slaves to their perceived ethnicity and removes any choice or free will in their actions.
But I had a buddy who's a cop try to convince me that the shooting of John T. Williams here a few years back was justified. Not on the merits, but because "if he knows how to write it, it's justified." And he actually seemed to think I'd agree with this, like it was obvious. That's the bubble he lived in.
Every cop knows the boilerplate they have to put to get the nod. And the always have. And it's finally coming back to bite them.
Sorry, I'm at a point now where I just assume all cops are lying now. Maybe that'll change sometime soon.
Is "If he knows how to write it, it's justified" better or worse than "We'll all say that we saw it and he had his hands up"?
There are bad cops out there. There are also bad black men out there. Saying "some cops are bad so I assume they're all bad" is no different from saying "some black men are bad so I assume they're all bad".
It is different. You can choose not to be a cop. You can choose not to cover for bad cops and regain the trust you have lost. You can choose not to fight every effort to hold you accountable to even a basic standard of decency.
I personally hate this logic train as it portrays minorities as slaves to their perceived ethnicity and removes any choice or free will in their actions.
Yup. That is what racism does.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Perhaps another way to put it is, a police officer can choose to not be viewed as a police officer, if they wish. When they are not on duty, they remove their uniform and people do not still immediately look at them and think "police officer." If things got tough enough, they could quit being a police officer and forever remove themselves from judgement as such.
No such luxury when it comes to others judging you based on the color of your skin.
But I had a buddy who's a cop try to convince me that the shooting of John T. Williams here a few years back was justified. Not on the merits, but because "if he knows how to write it, it's justified." And he actually seemed to think I'd agree with this, like it was obvious. That's the bubble he lived in.
Every cop knows the boilerplate they have to put to get the nod. And the always have. And it's finally coming back to bite them.
Sorry, I'm at a point now where I just assume all cops are lying now. Maybe that'll change sometime soon.
Is "If he knows how to write it, it's justified" better or worse than "We'll all say that we saw it and he had his hands up"?
There are bad cops out there. There are also bad black men out there. Saying "some cops are bad so I assume they're all bad" is no different from saying "some black men are bad so I assume they're all bad".
It is different. You can choose not to be a cop. You can choose not to cover for bad cops and regain the trust you have lost. You can choose not to fight every effort to hold you accountable to even a basic standard of decency.
I personally hate this logic train as it portrays minorities as slaves to their perceived ethnicity and removes any choice or free will in their actions.
My ethnicity is Chinese. People look at me and think I'm good at math. It takes me considerable effort to disabuse people of that notion. I'm not a slave to my ethnicity; I'm burdened by people's perceptions of my ethnicity, perceptions that are forced upon me against my will and require significant effort on my part to counteract (if I even can).
That is to say, racism makes other people's ignorance my burden involuntarily. Being a police officer would make other people's crimes my burden, but that is a burden that I (do not) take up voluntarily, and one that I would also be financially compensated for.
And you know what, I can live with that burden personally. Usually, people thinking I'm good at math because of my race is of benefit to me. That's not the same as racism aimed at black people. They don't get to just ignore the racism aimed at them without facing the consequences. To avoid those consequences requires more effort on their part, effort that white people don't have to expend, which closes off opportunities when they can't expend the effort, or when they're punished for expending the effort, or when no amount of effort could be enough. They're not slaves to their perceived ethnicity, but that's because some of them can and do fight it off, and they are, regardless, subject to having to fight that fight in the first place.
But I had a buddy who's a cop try to convince me that the shooting of John T. Williams here a few years back was justified. Not on the merits, but because "if he knows how to write it, it's justified." And he actually seemed to think I'd agree with this, like it was obvious. That's the bubble he lived in.
Every cop knows the boilerplate they have to put to get the nod. And the always have. And it's finally coming back to bite them.
Sorry, I'm at a point now where I just assume all cops are lying now. Maybe that'll change sometime soon.
Is "If he knows how to write it, it's justified" better or worse than "We'll all say that we saw it and he had his hands up"?
There are bad cops out there. There are also bad black men out there. Saying "some cops are bad so I assume they're all bad" is no different from saying "some black men are bad so I assume they're all bad".
It is different. You can choose not to be a cop. You can choose not to cover for bad cops and regain the trust you have lost. You can choose not to fight every effort to hold you accountable to even a basic standard of decency.
I personally hate this logic train as it portrays minorities as slaves to their perceived ethnicity and removes any choice or free will in their actions.
Yup. That is what racism does.
And rather than break it or resist it, I hear this train promote it.
If one's choice makes them have less authority than one's birth, then....
I dunno, I reject privilege as a measure of justice.
Tulsa citizen was clearly unarmed and while the Charlotte citizen was in the vicinity of a gun, no evidence has come to light that it was in his hand.
Those are facts and evidence, not privilege and race.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops when he was shot.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not. It's about lost faith in a broken system. It doesn't matter that some times, American air strikes actually do kill the terrorist they're targeting cleanly; they still burn American flags in the Middle East. It doesn't matter that some times, the Cleveland Browns lose a game due to circumstances outside of their control; they're still considered perennial losers. It doesn't matter that some Chinese Communist Party officials aren't always behaving corruptly at all times; China's still #83 on the global corruption index.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal disciplinary action. It's been two months, and the only Google News hit for him in the last month is protesters going to a city council meeting and demanding that he be fired.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal discplinary action.
At some point it will have to be, everything ends.
Still, no data to support the rioters, history gives decent odds something will turn up.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal discplinary action.
At some point it will have to be, everything ends.
Still, no data to support the rioters, history gives decent odds something will turn up.
Yeah, for sure, if one day we get to that point. But when you're dying of a thousand cuts, you're not going to be particularly concerned about whether one was well-deserved or not. The perception isn't that the clock is inaccurate, but that it's downright broken, so who cares if it gets one right every 12 hours?
Do BLM-esque protesters go too far? Frequently, like when many voiced support for the sovereign citizen who fired a shotgun at NYPD (I think?). And this does, in turn, spin injustices back upon individual police officers at times. But they're responding to a situation that was very much not their creation; they are not the ones in power; they are not the ones with responsibility. Those who do, our society's leaders, should be the ones taking up that cross, standing between the two sides who are too far deep in their own entrenched interests, and forging a new path for us all.
We're not all in this together. We're not all equally responsible. Some of us are more responsible.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not. It's about lost faith in a broken system. It doesn't matter that some times, American air strikes actually do kill the terrorist they're targeting cleanly; they still burn American flags in the Middle East. It doesn't matter that some times, the Cleveland Browns lose a game due to circumstances outside of their control; they're still considered perennial losers. It doesn't matter that some Chinese Communist Party officials aren't always behaving corruptly at all times; the Chinese government is still known for being incredibly corrupt.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal disciplinary action. It's been two months, and the only Google News hit for him in the last month is protesters going to a city council meeting and demanding that he be fired.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
By all mean, when evidence pops up showing that it was a bad shooting or that the individual did nothing, protest. Point to it and say this is a problem and demand that it be fixed. But wait until that is known first.
I will admit that I was late to admitting that there was a problem, and a big part of that had to do with several of the incidents that gave rise to BLM being centered around individuals who were, or had just committed a crime at the time as opposed to incidents where it occurred to actual innocent victims such as Philando Castille, who I knew were out there.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
No, this right here is what you've getting wrong. Why is one side supposed to be better? And if any side is supposed to be better, why is it the side that's been aggrieved rather than the side that's been aggrieving?
If you punch me in the face, why am I supposed to be better and not punch you back? And if you've been punching me in the face every day for years, why is stopping that incumbent upon me not punching you back? Especially when my not punching you back hasn't stopped it yet?
We are NOT all the same here. This is NOT a conflict between equals. The oppressed should not bear the burden of rising up over their oppression, to win over their oppressors' hearts with their grace and fortitude. This is that Magical N---- bullshit.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not. It's about lost faith in a broken system. It doesn't matter that some times, American air strikes actually do kill the terrorist they're targeting cleanly; they still burn American flags in the Middle East. It doesn't matter that some times, the Cleveland Browns lose a game due to circumstances outside of their control; they're still considered perennial losers. It doesn't matter that some Chinese Communist Party officials aren't always behaving corruptly at all times; the Chinese government is still known for being incredibly corrupt.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal disciplinary action. It's been two months, and the only Google News hit for him in the last month is protesters going to a city council meeting and demanding that he be fired.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
By all mean, when evidence pops up showing that it was a bad shooting or that the individual did nothing, protest. Point to it and say this is a problem and demand that it be fixed. But wait until that is known first.
I will admit that I was late to admitting that there was a problem, and a big part of that had to do with several of the incidents that gave rise to BLM being centered around individuals who were, or had just committed a crime at the time as opposed to incidents where it occurred to actual innocent victims such as Philando Castille, who I knew were out there.
Couple things:
While the problem is much more obvious when somebody is legitimately innocent, you do agree that even some of those who were committing some crime didn't necessarily give justification for deadly force, right? Maybe Michael Brown's shooting was justified, for instance. But in other cases...like Eric Garner's...the fact that he was perhaps guilty of some petty crime doesn't suddenly make the force used against him justified.
As for waiting for evidence of a bad shooting, I hate to put it so callously but once the body's cold often the public at large stops giving a shit. It's no longer news. Plus that just gives plenty of time for the department to find a rug big enough to sweep it all under. If we actually had any faith in a fair and impartial investigation of these incidents, we probably wouldn't be at the "burn shit down" stage to begin with.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
No, this right here is what you've getting wrong. Why is one side supposed to be better? And if any side is supposed to be better, why is it the side that's been aggrieved rather than the side that's been aggrieving?
If you punch me in the face, why am I supposed to be better and not punch you back? And if you've been punching me in the face every day for years, why is stopping that incumbent upon me not punching you back?
We are NOT all the same here. This is NOT a conflict between equals. The oppressed should not bear the burden of rising up over their oppression. This is that Magical Negro bullshit.
Who said they shouldn't be equal, or that one side was supposed to be better? I don't know how you got that from what I said.
To go with your metaphor, if I punch you in the face, punch me back; if you walk in in the middle of a fight though, don't punch me assuming I started it.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not. It's about lost faith in a broken system. It doesn't matter that some times, American air strikes actually do kill the terrorist they're targeting cleanly; they still burn American flags in the Middle East. It doesn't matter that some times, the Cleveland Browns lose a game due to circumstances outside of their control; they're still considered perennial losers. It doesn't matter that some Chinese Communist Party officials aren't always behaving corruptly at all times; the Chinese government is still known for being incredibly corrupt.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal disciplinary action. It's been two months, and the only Google News hit for him in the last month is protesters going to a city council meeting and demanding that he be fired.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
By all mean, when evidence pops up showing that it was a bad shooting or that the individual did nothing, protest. Point to it and say this is a problem and demand that it be fixed. But wait until that is known first.
I will admit that I was late to admitting that there was a problem, and a big part of that had to do with several of the incidents that gave rise to BLM being centered around individuals who were, or had just committed a crime at the time as opposed to incidents where it occurred to actual innocent victims such as Philando Castille, who I knew were out there.
Couple things:
While the problem is much more obvious when somebody is legitimately innocent, you do agree that even some of those who were committing some crime didn't necessarily give justification for deadly force, right? Maybe Michael Brown's shooting was justified, for instance. But in other cases...like Eric Garner's...the fact that he was perhaps guilty of some petty crime doesn't suddenly make the force used against him justified.
As for waiting for evidence of a bad shooting, I hate to put it so callously but once the body's cold often the public at large stops giving a shit. It's no longer news. Plus that just gives plenty of time for the department to find a rug big enough to sweep it all under. If we actually had any faith in a fair and impartial investigation of these incidents, we probably wouldn't be at the "burn shit down" stage to begin with.
First: Yes I agree with that. The Michael Brown shooting was pretty much solely what I was referencing there and was what jaded my acceptance of the problem for a long time.
Second: This doesn't lead to a productive discussion, it just makes everyone hunker down more firmly in their corners and solves nothing. There's a reason why at the base of our judicial system is the assumption of innocence.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not. It's about lost faith in a broken system. It doesn't matter that some times, American air strikes actually do kill the terrorist they're targeting cleanly; they still burn American flags in the Middle East. It doesn't matter that some times, the Cleveland Browns lose a game due to circumstances outside of their control; they're still considered perennial losers. It doesn't matter that some Chinese Communist Party officials aren't always behaving corruptly at all times; the Chinese government is still known for being incredibly corrupt.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal disciplinary action. It's been two months, and the only Google News hit for him in the last month is protesters going to a city council meeting and demanding that he be fired.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
By all mean, when evidence pops up showing that it was a bad shooting or that the individual did nothing, protest. Point to it and say this is a problem and demand that it be fixed. But wait until that is known first.
I will admit that I was late to admitting that there was a problem, and a big part of that had to do with several of the incidents that gave rise to BLM being centered around individuals who were, or had just committed a crime at the time as opposed to incidents where it occurred to actual innocent victims such as Philando Castille, who I knew were out there.
Couple things:
While the problem is much more obvious when somebody is legitimately innocent, you do agree that even some of those who were committing some crime didn't necessarily give justification for deadly force, right? Maybe Michael Brown's shooting was justified, for instance. But in other cases...like Eric Garner's...the fact that he was perhaps guilty of some petty crime doesn't suddenly make the force used against him justified.
As for waiting for evidence of a bad shooting, I hate to put it so callously but once the body's cold often the public at large stops giving a shit. It's no longer news. Plus that just gives plenty of time for the department to find a rug big enough to sweep it all under. If we actually had any faith in a fair and impartial investigation of these incidents, we probably wouldn't be at the "burn shit down" stage to begin with.
First: Yes I agree with that. The Michael Brown shooting was pretty much solely what I was referencing there and was what jaded my acceptance of the problem for a long time.
Second: This doesn't lead to a productive discussion, it just makes everyone hunker down more firmly in their corners and solves nothing. There's a reason why at the base of our judicial system is the assumption of innocence.
The problem is that the base of our cops-shooting-people system seems to be s presumption of guilt.
That and having institutions investigate themselves doesn't seem to work. Nor does having them investigated by somebody with a stake in the outcome. Presumption of innocence is great when you have an adversarial system (not really, there are still issues, but we'll go with it). The issue here is that more often than not it seems that we don't have any "prosecutor.". So, unsurprisingly, when "the results of the investigation" finally come, everybody's innocent. Shocker!
This has only very recently started to change. And not by much.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not. It's about lost faith in a broken system. It doesn't matter that some times, American air strikes actually do kill the terrorist they're targeting cleanly; they still burn American flags in the Middle East. It doesn't matter that some times, the Cleveland Browns lose a game due to circumstances outside of their control; they're still considered perennial losers. It doesn't matter that some Chinese Communist Party officials aren't always behaving corruptly at all times; the Chinese government is still known for being incredibly corrupt.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal disciplinary action. It's been two months, and the only Google News hit for him in the last month is protesters going to a city council meeting and demanding that he be fired.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
By all mean, when evidence pops up showing that it was a bad shooting or that the individual did nothing, protest. Point to it and say this is a problem and demand that it be fixed. But wait until that is known first.
I will admit that I was late to admitting that there was a problem, and a big part of that had to do with several of the incidents that gave rise to BLM being centered around individuals who were, or had just committed a crime at the time as opposed to incidents where it occurred to actual innocent victims such as Philando Castille, who I knew were out there.
Couple things:
While the problem is much more obvious when somebody is legitimately innocent, you do agree that even some of those who were committing some crime didn't necessarily give justification for deadly force, right? Maybe Michael Brown's shooting was justified, for instance. But in other cases...like Eric Garner's...the fact that he was perhaps guilty of some petty crime doesn't suddenly make the force used against him justified.
As for waiting for evidence of a bad shooting, I hate to put it so callously but once the body's cold often the public at large stops giving a shit. It's no longer news. Plus that just gives plenty of time for the department to find a rug big enough to sweep it all under. If we actually had any faith in a fair and impartial investigation of these incidents, we probably wouldn't be at the "burn shit down" stage to begin with.
First: Yes I agree with that. The Michael Brown shooting was pretty much solely what I was referencing there and was what jaded my acceptance of the problem for a long time.
Second: This doesn't lead to a productive discussion, it just makes everyone hunker down more firmly in their corners and solves nothing. There's a reason why at the base of our judicial system is the assumption of innocence.
The problem is that the base of our cops-shooting-people system seems to be s presumption of guilt.
That and having institutions investigate themselves doesn't seem to work. Nor does having them investigated by somebody with a stake in the outcome. Presumption of innocence is great when you have an adversarial system (not really, there are still issues, but we'll go with it). The issue here is that more often than not it seems that we don't have any "prosecutor.". So, unsurprisingly, when "the results of the investigation" finally come, everybody's innocent. Shocker!
This has only very recently started to change. And not by much.
I agree with this, but how does rioting before that investigation, or even any information about the incident, assuming guilt help with this? I think being wrong in these case loses more than being right gains. If they are right and it is a wrongful shooting the movement gains nothing that it wouldn't have gotten had everyone waited; but if they are wrong, police the think it doesn't matter what they do they are guilty, and they stop caring, and the bad ones just get the affirmation that their racist beliefs are right.
And to be clear, I am drawing a clear line between rioting and a protest. I think much can be gained from a focused protest demanding that the investigation be as open and transparent as possible.
Watching Charlotte via MSNBC, just saw a guy sitting down in the street get pulled to his feet and dragged behind a line of police, blocking the cameras from seeing anything
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not. It's about lost faith in a broken system. It doesn't matter that some times, American air strikes actually do kill the terrorist they're targeting cleanly; they still burn American flags in the Middle East. It doesn't matter that some times, the Cleveland Browns lose a game due to circumstances outside of their control; they're still considered perennial losers. It doesn't matter that some Chinese Communist Party officials aren't always behaving corruptly at all times; the Chinese government is still known for being incredibly corrupt.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal disciplinary action. It's been two months, and the only Google News hit for him in the last month is protesters going to a city council meeting and demanding that he be fired.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
By all mean, when evidence pops up showing that it was a bad shooting or that the individual did nothing, protest. Point to it and say this is a problem and demand that it be fixed. But wait until that is known first.
I will admit that I was late to admitting that there was a problem, and a big part of that had to do with several of the incidents that gave rise to BLM being centered around individuals who were, or had just committed a crime at the time as opposed to incidents where it occurred to actual innocent victims such as Philando Castille, who I knew were out there.
Couple things:
While the problem is much more obvious when somebody is legitimately innocent, you do agree that even some of those who were committing some crime didn't necessarily give justification for deadly force, right? Maybe Michael Brown's shooting was justified, for instance. But in other cases...like Eric Garner's...the fact that he was perhaps guilty of some petty crime doesn't suddenly make the force used against him justified.
As for waiting for evidence of a bad shooting, I hate to put it so callously but once the body's cold often the public at large stops giving a shit. It's no longer news. Plus that just gives plenty of time for the department to find a rug big enough to sweep it all under. If we actually had any faith in a fair and impartial investigation of these incidents, we probably wouldn't be at the "burn shit down" stage to begin with.
First: Yes I agree with that. The Michael Brown shooting was pretty much solely what I was referencing there and was what jaded my acceptance of the problem for a long time.
Second: This doesn't lead to a productive discussion, it just makes everyone hunker down more firmly in their corners and solves nothing. There's a reason why at the base of our judicial system is the assumption of innocence.
The problem is that the base of our cops-shooting-people system seems to be s presumption of guilt.
That and having institutions investigate themselves doesn't seem to work. Nor does having them investigated by somebody with a stake in the outcome. Presumption of innocence is great when you have an adversarial system (not really, there are still issues, but we'll go with it). The issue here is that more often than not it seems that we don't have any "prosecutor.". So, unsurprisingly, when "the results of the investigation" finally come, everybody's innocent. Shocker!
This has only very recently started to change. And not by much.
I agree with this, but how does rioting before that investigation, or even any information about the incident, assuming guilt help with this? I think being wrong in these case loses more than being right gains. If they are right and it is a wrongful shooting the movement gains nothing that it wouldn't have gotten had everyone waited; but if they are wrong, police the think it doesn't matter what they do they are guilty, and they stop caring, and the bad ones just get the affirmation that their racist beliefs are right.
And to be clear, I am drawing a clear line between rioting and a protest. I think much can be gained from a focused protest demanding that the investigation be as open and transparent as possible.
People don't riot to fix things, it's to lash out and get attention. Putting a spotlight on the issue so that the public and the government notice and maybe decide y'know what - something needs to be done here.
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
We'll have 200,000 retweets before anyone even thinks to take a look at the test he turned in to see what his answers were.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not. It's about lost faith in a broken system. It doesn't matter that some times, American air strikes actually do kill the terrorist they're targeting cleanly; they still burn American flags in the Middle East. It doesn't matter that some times, the Cleveland Browns lose a game due to circumstances outside of their control; they're still considered perennial losers. It doesn't matter that some Chinese Communist Party officials aren't always behaving corruptly at all times; the Chinese government is still known for being incredibly corrupt.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal disciplinary action. It's been two months, and the only Google News hit for him in the last month is protesters going to a city council meeting and demanding that he be fired.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
By all mean, when evidence pops up showing that it was a bad shooting or that the individual did nothing, protest. Point to it and say this is a problem and demand that it be fixed. But wait until that is known first.
I will admit that I was late to admitting that there was a problem, and a big part of that had to do with several of the incidents that gave rise to BLM being centered around individuals who were, or had just committed a crime at the time as opposed to incidents where it occurred to actual innocent victims such as Philando Castille, who I knew were out there.
Couple things:
While the problem is much more obvious when somebody is legitimately innocent, you do agree that even some of those who were committing some crime didn't necessarily give justification for deadly force, right? Maybe Michael Brown's shooting was justified, for instance. But in other cases...like Eric Garner's...the fact that he was perhaps guilty of some petty crime doesn't suddenly make the force used against him justified.
As for waiting for evidence of a bad shooting, I hate to put it so callously but once the body's cold often the public at large stops giving a shit. It's no longer news. Plus that just gives plenty of time for the department to find a rug big enough to sweep it all under. If we actually had any faith in a fair and impartial investigation of these incidents, we probably wouldn't be at the "burn shit down" stage to begin with.
First: Yes I agree with that. The Michael Brown shooting was pretty much solely what I was referencing there and was what jaded my acceptance of the problem for a long time.
Second: This doesn't lead to a productive discussion, it just makes everyone hunker down more firmly in their corners and solves nothing. There's a reason why at the base of our judicial system is the assumption of innocence.
The problem is that the base of our cops-shooting-people system seems to be s presumption of guilt.
That and having institutions investigate themselves doesn't seem to work. Nor does having them investigated by somebody with a stake in the outcome. Presumption of innocence is great when you have an adversarial system (not really, there are still issues, but we'll go with it). The issue here is that more often than not it seems that we don't have any "prosecutor.". So, unsurprisingly, when "the results of the investigation" finally come, everybody's innocent. Shocker!
This has only very recently started to change. And not by much.
I agree with this, but how does rioting before that investigation, or even any information about the incident, assuming guilt help with this? I think being wrong in these case loses more than being right gains. If they are right and it is a wrongful shooting the movement gains nothing that it wouldn't have gotten had everyone waited; but if they are wrong, police the think it doesn't matter what they do they are guilty, and they stop caring, and the bad ones just get the affirmation that their racist beliefs are right.
And to be clear, I am drawing a clear line between rioting and a protest. I think much can be gained from a focused protest demanding that the investigation be as open and transparent as possible.
Rioting is not a measured, calculated or logical response. It's an autonomic response, the way a body forcibly reacts to adverse environmental conditions, such as gasping for breath in a room with no oxygen. In certain conditions you're going to fight blindly to breathe, and if you are underwater or in space that may not help, it may even hurt you further. At best it may alert others to your need for a drastic change in your environment, and maybe they can help you. But whether it helps or not, it's an inevitable reaction of which you are not in control and for which you are not responsible.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I think it's important to remember the meaning of the saying that "A few bad apples spoils the bunch." It's not saying that there's some bad apples but the rest are good so clearly the whole is fine, it's saying that those few bad apples are going to ruin the entirety of them. They will corrupt them and make them into bad apples too. The only way to save the bunch is to get rid of the bad apples entirely.
I think it's important to remember the meaning of the saying that "A few bad apples spoils the bunch." It's not saying that there's some bad apples but the rest are good so clearly the whole is fine, it's saying that those few bad apples are going to ruin the entirety of them. They will corrupt them and make them into bad apples too. The only way to save the bunch is to get rid of the bad apples entirely.
Posts
One of my family friends since I was like 10 is a
cop. My neighbor is a cop. I worked with cops very closely and for a long period of time. I have plenty I could call a friend, and I have no need to worry about getting into trouble in certain parts of town since I am friends with the police chief.
Most cops are bad under his construct. They will always cover for bad cops and punish anyone who doesn't play ball. A friend of mine refused to illegally falsify a report in a way that would imply he was present at the time of the arrest. He was suddenly transfered to a new supervisor, had past performance reviews changed to be negative, got dinged for every minor offense and then fired. Cops need a huge reform.
I would argue that "cops need a huge reform" is markedly different from "all/most cops are bad cops/people".
Putting how many of them are actually in the United States vs how many you have seen, met, interacted with or seen in the news... yeah that's some pretty gross generalization.
No small amount of ink has been spilled in this country talking about whether or not law enforcement culture has issues with dealing with malfeasance within their ranks.
Maybe we're wrong. I don't know. I'm not a cop.
Yes. It's as though people identifying there's a problem and trying to get the government to do something about it doesn't automatically and immediately solve that same problem.
They may be two sides of the same coin, but previously, the coin was one-sided. That is, it wasn't even a coin. Now that we're actually having a debate, one which involves TWO sides, you seem to be upset that the debate is happening at all. Somehow, for some reason, you expect BLM to be the ones to have all the solutions, to be their own saviours from y'on hither, to be better than the police, and then somehow magically convince those in power with authority to implement all their brilliant reform ideas through the magical power of persuasion, and that's just pants-on-head backwards.
Like, how dare these students overreact to their teacher's gross and disproportionate disciplinary measures! They should be mature and responsible enough to respond civilly and constructively when faced with abuse from authority figures who should know better! They should take on the responsibility of fixing their teacher's behaviour, and of rectifying the missing oversight that enabled that teacher in the first place, as well as fixing the cultural problems amongst teachers in their school. Shock, horror, pearls clutched, children thought of. No, it's not an improvement; it's not their job to improve things!
That I was not arguing about.
It should be that simple for cops. Unless they have *already* been shot at, they have to exhaust the de-escalation steps, or it's an administrative punishment or a termination depending on the results of an unlawful discharge.
I personally hate this logic train as it portrays minorities as slaves to their perceived ethnicity and removes any choice or free will in their actions.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Yup. That is what racism does.
No such luxury when it comes to others judging you based on the color of your skin.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
My ethnicity is Chinese. People look at me and think I'm good at math. It takes me considerable effort to disabuse people of that notion. I'm not a slave to my ethnicity; I'm burdened by people's perceptions of my ethnicity, perceptions that are forced upon me against my will and require significant effort on my part to counteract (if I even can).
That is to say, racism makes other people's ignorance my burden involuntarily. Being a police officer would make other people's crimes my burden, but that is a burden that I (do not) take up voluntarily, and one that I would also be financially compensated for.
And you know what, I can live with that burden personally. Usually, people thinking I'm good at math because of my race is of benefit to me. That's not the same as racism aimed at black people. They don't get to just ignore the racism aimed at them without facing the consequences. To avoid those consequences requires more effort on their part, effort that white people don't have to expend, which closes off opportunities when they can't expend the effort, or when they're punished for expending the effort, or when no amount of effort could be enough. They're not slaves to their perceived ethnicity, but that's because some of them can and do fight it off, and they are, regardless, subject to having to fight that fight in the first place.
And rather than break it or resist it, I hear this train promote it.
If one's choice makes them have less authority than one's birth, then....
I dunno, I reject privilege as a measure of justice.
Tulsa citizen was clearly unarmed and while the Charlotte citizen was in the vicinity of a gun, no evidence has come to light that it was in his hand.
Those are facts and evidence, not privilege and race.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
The student got an F? Let's immediately assume he got an F because he was black, get a group of people to lie in court swearing that they saw him study, and then light our desks on fire.
Straw man.
How? There have been incidents where this was the case. Not the lying in court, but there was an incident in Minneapolis last winter where the claim was the the individual was handcuffed and then shot executioner style. After months of protest, the videos were released clearly showing the individual (Jamar Clark if you'd like to
look it up http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jamar-clark-shooting-no-charges-against-2-minneapolis-cops-involved-n547941 ) was not handcuffed, and was wrestling on the ground with one of the cops when he was shot.
It's not a straw man when there are precedents of it happening.
Those citizens are rioting because of the deceased's skin color and a history of police violence.
Because while nothing damming has come out against the CPD in this case, historical gives the rioters being right better odds than powerball.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Because people aren't protesting the one and only black man who has ever been shot by police.
As much as SmokeStacks wants to make this about ONE person and ONE police officer and ONE shooting, it's not. It's about lost faith in a broken system. It doesn't matter that some times, American air strikes actually do kill the terrorist they're targeting cleanly; they still burn American flags in the Middle East. It doesn't matter that some times, the Cleveland Browns lose a game due to circumstances outside of their control; they're still considered perennial losers. It doesn't matter that some Chinese Communist Party officials aren't always behaving corruptly at all times; China's still #83 on the global corruption index.
By the by, I happened to look it up today: Jonathan Aledda, the North Miami police officer who shot the behavioural therapist lying on the ground next to his autistic patient, has yet to receive any formal disciplinary action. It's been two months, and the only Google News hit for him in the last month is protesters going to a city council meeting and demanding that he be fired.
At some point it will have to be, everything ends.
Still, no data to support the rioters, history gives decent odds something will turn up.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Yeah, for sure, if one day we get to that point. But when you're dying of a thousand cuts, you're not going to be particularly concerned about whether one was well-deserved or not. The perception isn't that the clock is inaccurate, but that it's downright broken, so who cares if it gets one right every 12 hours?
Do BLM-esque protesters go too far? Frequently, like when many voiced support for the sovereign citizen who fired a shotgun at NYPD (I think?). And this does, in turn, spin injustices back upon individual police officers at times. But they're responding to a situation that was very much not their creation; they are not the ones in power; they are not the ones with responsibility. Those who do, our society's leaders, should be the ones taking up that cross, standing between the two sides who are too far deep in their own entrenched interests, and forging a new path for us all.
We're not all in this together. We're not all equally responsible. Some of us are more responsible.
That's the problem, it should be. The assumption that everytime that there is a police involved shooting it's because the police are corrupt and racist is no better than the police assuming every black man they see is a criminal. They are both grossly untrue assumptions and as long as both sides are coming at it like that, nothing is going to be fixed.
By all mean, when evidence pops up showing that it was a bad shooting or that the individual did nothing, protest. Point to it and say this is a problem and demand that it be fixed. But wait until that is known first.
I will admit that I was late to admitting that there was a problem, and a big part of that had to do with several of the incidents that gave rise to BLM being centered around individuals who were, or had just committed a crime at the time as opposed to incidents where it occurred to actual innocent victims such as Philando Castille, who I knew were out there.
Edit: joke sounded better in my head.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
No, this right here is what you've getting wrong. Why is one side supposed to be better? And if any side is supposed to be better, why is it the side that's been aggrieved rather than the side that's been aggrieving?
If you punch me in the face, why am I supposed to be better and not punch you back? And if you've been punching me in the face every day for years, why is stopping that incumbent upon me not punching you back? Especially when my not punching you back hasn't stopped it yet?
We are NOT all the same here. This is NOT a conflict between equals. The oppressed should not bear the burden of rising up over their oppression, to win over their oppressors' hearts with their grace and fortitude. This is that Magical N---- bullshit.
This isn't a fight, a war, or a revolution.
It's evolution and the purging of old ideas.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
Couple things:
While the problem is much more obvious when somebody is legitimately innocent, you do agree that even some of those who were committing some crime didn't necessarily give justification for deadly force, right? Maybe Michael Brown's shooting was justified, for instance. But in other cases...like Eric Garner's...the fact that he was perhaps guilty of some petty crime doesn't suddenly make the force used against him justified.
As for waiting for evidence of a bad shooting, I hate to put it so callously but once the body's cold often the public at large stops giving a shit. It's no longer news. Plus that just gives plenty of time for the department to find a rug big enough to sweep it all under. If we actually had any faith in a fair and impartial investigation of these incidents, we probably wouldn't be at the "burn shit down" stage to begin with.
Who said they shouldn't be equal, or that one side was supposed to be better? I don't know how you got that from what I said.
To go with your metaphor, if I punch you in the face, punch me back; if you walk in in the middle of a fight though, don't punch me assuming I started it.
Ugh I really hate metaphors in these threads...
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
First: Yes I agree with that. The Michael Brown shooting was pretty much solely what I was referencing there and was what jaded my acceptance of the problem for a long time.
Second: This doesn't lead to a productive discussion, it just makes everyone hunker down more firmly in their corners and solves nothing. There's a reason why at the base of our judicial system is the assumption of innocence.
http://www.fallout3nexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=16534
The problem is that the base of our cops-shooting-people system seems to be s presumption of guilt.
That and having institutions investigate themselves doesn't seem to work. Nor does having them investigated by somebody with a stake in the outcome. Presumption of innocence is great when you have an adversarial system (not really, there are still issues, but we'll go with it). The issue here is that more often than not it seems that we don't have any "prosecutor.". So, unsurprisingly, when "the results of the investigation" finally come, everybody's innocent. Shocker!
This has only very recently started to change. And not by much.
I agree with this, but how does rioting before that investigation, or even any information about the incident, assuming guilt help with this? I think being wrong in these case loses more than being right gains. If they are right and it is a wrongful shooting the movement gains nothing that it wouldn't have gotten had everyone waited; but if they are wrong, police the think it doesn't matter what they do they are guilty, and they stop caring, and the bad ones just get the affirmation that their racist beliefs are right.
And to be clear, I am drawing a clear line between rioting and a protest. I think much can be gained from a focused protest demanding that the investigation be as open and transparent as possible.
People don't riot to fix things, it's to lash out and get attention. Putting a spotlight on the issue so that the public and the government notice and maybe decide y'know what - something needs to be done here.
Rioting is not a measured, calculated or logical response. It's an autonomic response, the way a body forcibly reacts to adverse environmental conditions, such as gasping for breath in a room with no oxygen. In certain conditions you're going to fight blindly to breathe, and if you are underwater or in space that may not help, it may even hurt you further. At best it may alert others to your need for a drastic change in your environment, and maybe they can help you. But whether it helps or not, it's an inevitable reaction of which you are not in control and for which you are not responsible.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
And because decades of not rioting didn't seem to work.
Particularly when they're in the leadership.