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[Hiberno-Britannic Politics] You Brexit, You Buy It
RMS Oceanic
Registered User regular
Registered User regular
So this archipelago
Has these nations.
These nations are almost completely not unique in that they're run by a system known as Politics!
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Run by this Lady.
These folk would rather she didn't.
The Issues
So after the most unrepresentative general election in history, as I'll let CGP Grey explain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9rGX91rq5I
A major constitutional decision was put to a straight up/down vote for questionable reasons of internal party politics, and it backfired cataclysmically because of milquetoast Remain campaigning and relentless criminally irresponsible bullshit. I'll also let CGP Grey explain what the current situation is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3_I2rfApYk
There are some other issues like Theresa May's downplaying of Climate Change as part of her reshuffle and Jeremy Hunt still being a dick to the NHS, but Brexit dominates the political landscape.
There's also an attempt to oust Robespierre from the National Convention, but the sans-culottes seem to be rallying to protect him even if he won't actually give them Bread and the Constitution of 1793 because his own sense of virtue is more important. This risks a Federalist Revolt.
A spiffing place to keep up to date with the latest developments.
An Poblacht na hÉireann
Okay, as someone who actually lives in the Republic of Ireland Desktop Hippie did an infinitely better job than I did explaining things, so I'm gonna pilfer this goldmine of a post to give you a lay of the land.
A shockin' good place to see what the feck the craic is.
So, discuss the goings on in the Dail and the Commons!
Has these nations.
These nations are almost completely not unique in that they're run by a system known as Politics!
The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland
Run by this Lady.
These folk would rather she didn't.
The Issues
So after the most unrepresentative general election in history, as I'll let CGP Grey explain:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9rGX91rq5IA major constitutional decision was put to a straight up/down vote for questionable reasons of internal party politics, and it backfired cataclysmically because of milquetoast Remain campaigning and relentless criminally irresponsible bullshit. I'll also let CGP Grey explain what the current situation is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3_I2rfApYkThere are some other issues like Theresa May's downplaying of Climate Change as part of her reshuffle and Jeremy Hunt still being a dick to the NHS, but Brexit dominates the political landscape.
There's also an attempt to oust Robespierre from the National Convention, but the sans-culottes seem to be rallying to protect him even if he won't actually give them Bread and the Constitution of 1793 because his own sense of virtue is more important. This risks a Federalist Revolt.
A spiffing place to keep up to date with the latest developments.
An Poblacht na hÉireann
Okay, as someone who actually lives in the Republic of Ireland Desktop Hippie did an infinitely better job than I did explaining things, so I'm gonna pilfer this goldmine of a post to give you a lay of the land.
Desktop Hippie wrote: »Okay then, let's add a little Hiberno to the Hiberno-Britannic Politics thread! Because I've been keeping quiet lately but there's actually a fair bit happening over here.
As @RMS Oceanic Said in the OP, this chap
is Enda Kenny, An Taoiseach, the Irish version of Prime Minister of An Poblacht na hÉireann. However, he's had a pretty bad week and is facing calls to step down, because quitting is all the rage these days.
To understand the situation better, I need to go over the last Irish General Election.
It was a mess.
Here's a rundown of the main contenders:
You had Fianna Gael, who were in power and very unpopular due to their mismanagement of a number of different austerity measures and because they pushed ahead with the EU stipulation that Ireland had to bring in water charges, something most other European countries have (including the UK.) The issue of water charges has been a huge one in Ireland, with many who have been struggling with lower wages, higher taxes and an increased cost of living seeing it as the final straw and refusing outright to pay.
You had Labour, who helped Fianna Gael with all this, despite the fact that they're SUPPOSED TO BE A FUCKING LABOUR PARTY!
You had Fianna Fáil, arch enemies of Fianna Gael and the party who were in power before and during the 2008 financial crisis, who also drove our economy headlong into the worst of it, which lead to all the crap Fianna Gael has done since - something Fianna Gael are very keen to point out.
You had The Green Party, who helped Fianna Fáil to do all this, despite the fact that they're SUPPOSED TO BE A FUCKING GREEN PARTY!
You had Sinn Féin, growing in popularity in working class Dublin and various areas of the country by setting themselves up as the anti-corruption "honest" party, railing against the politicians who took bribes from Ben Dunne while hoping nobody pointed out that they had kidnapped him.
You had the Social Democrats, a small left wing outfit who are quickly becoming the choice for voters sick of the irony of having a right of center Labour party.
You had Renua, who were... honestly, Mrs. Lovejoy pretty much covers it.
You had People Before Profit and the Anti Austerity Alliance. Both parties do exactly what it says on the tin.
And you had independents. Lots and lots and LOTS of independents, who range from this guy...
Shane Ross, voice of the middle-to-upper-middle class who see themselves as the real victims of the 2008 financial crisis. To be fair, they're not entirely wrong. The collapse in the value of bank shares meant that many who had spent their entire lives working and were getting ready for a nice, comfy retirement saw their pensions obliterated overnight and instead find themselves having to grind through their golden years clinging to their jobs and living hand-to-mouth. They absolutely have caused to be pissed off, but they do tend to wear a bit on the nerves of someone who has to sit in a sodden adult nappy in their wheelchair for hours on end because their home care visits have been cut back to two half hours every day.
...to this guy
Mick Wallace, voice of lower-to-middle class who campaigns against austerity, against overpunitive drug policy and against discrimination against women - making him one of the few who will tackle the abortion issue head on - while quietly hoping that nobody remembers that he's a well off property developer.
Oh and you also had these guys
Michael and Danny Healy-Rae, who represent the all important Kerry farmers vote. Because of course they do.
"Gosh, Desktop Hippie!" you say! "What a web of interests and intrigue! Who won the election?"
That's the problem. Nobody.
Well, Fianna Gael juuuuust about managed to keep a majority despite losing a bunch of seats, but it wasn't enough to form a government and while many other parties gained significant ground, none of them had enough to form a government either. After the longest gap between an election and the formation of a government in the history of the Irish State (lasting over 50 days!) Fianna Gael eventually hammered out a deal with Shane Ross and his Independent Alliance, a group of six independent TDs (the Irish version of MPs) who agreed to club together as a sort of minority party in exchange for focus on their various raisons d'être and seats on the cabinet. This is exactly as stable a government as you're probably imagining it to be.
So, the election was in February of this year and we finally got a government at the end of April. What's happened since then?
Well, Fianna Fáil have continued to gain ground with people who are willing to forgive the whole destroying-the-economy thing if they promise to be good TDs and never do it again, especially since Fianna Gael are coming across as dangerously unstable in the fragile post-Brexit days. To tackle Brexit head on, Enda Kenny decided to set up an all-island forum focusing entirely on Brexit and the fallout. However, he sort of forgot to tell First Minister and DUP Leader Arlene Foster about it in advance. Needless to say, this went down like a lead balloon. Adding to this, there was a vote on the hugely controversial issue of abortion (still illegal in Ireland, don't get me started) in which Enda allowed his Independent ministers a free vote, which drew sharp criticism.
The biggest problem though? He fired the Deputy Leader of Fianna Gael, went through a selection process to choose a new Deputy Leader and has decided to go with... the guy he fired.
Feeling better about Theresa May yet?
A shockin' good place to see what the feck the craic is.
So, discuss the goings on in the Dail and the Commons!
+12
This discussion has been closed.
Posts
Well they definitely push an agenda wrt to voting systems - that perfectly representing the voting will is most desirable rather than having cut offs in support for representation or representatives making informed choices on on behalf of the voters.
Which worked out just great with the Brexit referendum.
Thought that isn't to say I don't think the UK system couldn't be made much better, but I think you have to comprise somewhere before the platonic ideal of representation in favour of things that allow effective governance.
A decision of constitutional importance was made by a government that represents 37% of the electorate.
Setting aside the debate about the referendum and how good of an idea that was at all, I think a system that allows such low thresholds is in desperate need of reform.
He's also shown dishonesty with numbers - I remember getting disgusted with him trying to argue that shifting the US to a national popular vote wouldn't shift the weight heavily towards the cities by using city populations as opposed to metropolitan statistical area populations.
Dishonesty implies he knew the choice between them and made it. Could he maybe have based his argument on a flawed premise?
However the Brexit referendum implies if you had gone all the way to perfect representation of the population you would have had a leave government anyway!
Ta da!
Don't worry, as long as you're not young, ordinary, old or sick this shouldn't affect you!
Yes, I can't see that going badly, with continual corporate vehicle restructuring at all.
To be fair, I can imagine someone writing a position paper nominally in favour of these things, knowing they'd never have to put their money where their mouth was. But still. Why are they all, always*, prats?
*Except maybe Ken Clarke and I'm scared to look into him.
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EVERYBODY WANTS TO SIT IN THE BIG CHAIR, MEG!
But look, Labour has more members than before.
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Mandate!
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Jesus Christ. Labour, either sort your shit out or pass the opposition baton to the Lib Dems, please.
Why not both? :P
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Holding steady I think
Even given the Corbyn factor these numbers are still surprising. What do the Tories have to do to lose the trust of voters?
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Nutter, Disgrace, Tory Boy, Idiot Who Didn't Even Run and Gay Cure Who Wants To Kiss You All Over all displayed their wares during the political equivalent of the swimsuit round and Britain shuddered in horror.
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Not as depressing as a Brexit voter genuinely believing that trade details with New Zealand are a better alternative to the single market.
they have some quality sheep.
Unfortunately quality sheep is one of the few things we also have!
We really should be selling our sheep with a large, nay continental sized, consumer base who have the wealth to want high quality high expense meat and wool products.
Not sure where we'd find one of those though.
This is my point though, the Tories have spent the last year being unbelievably evil/incompetent. Like even if you don't follow politics much it's hard not to notice that they've brought the country to ruin. There is a very good chance chance that five years from now there will not BE a United Kingdom and any idiot can see it's all their fault. In the face of this people still think they're the best choice? To the casual observer Corbyns Labour may be underwhelming but there's underwhelming and then there is the cataclysmic stupidity the Tories have shown in governance.
I guess what I'm saying is most the stuff that's wrong with Corbyn it takes someone who actually follows politics to notice or know about, so I'm not sure why Joe Average hates Labour more than the Tories right now.
All new PMs have a polling bounce. Brown's Labour posted multiple double digit leads over Cameron's Conservatives after he took over.
And then he fucking bottled it and failed to call a snap general election.
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I don;t really recall the Lib Dems making any kind of waves in the last 3 weeks apart from promising to not invoke Article 50, so their numbers won't change until they get a bit more outspoken.
Farron also got slapped down (unnecessarily) hard by May in PMQs.
Is there a clip?
Basically someone who can't stand up to May leading the party means it will remain as dead as it ever was.
I get that it's easy to look good when you haven't had time to fuck up yet but this still doesn't explain how the Tories are so teflon coated now. I mean Labour got tainted by the lingering stink of the 2008 global crash despite a new leader, and that wasn't even their fault. The just as dismal economic forecast we're facing now is absolutely 100% the fault of the Conservatives but a new Leader somehow absolves them of all sins?
Is the Tory reputation for economic competence that strong that people cling to it in the face of all evidence to the contrary?
Somehow it feels like Labour have to fight an uphill battle for the smallest gain while all the Tories have to do is... well I was going to say "not fuck up" but apparently not even that.
Unnecessary is definitely the word.
This pretty much highlights the problem with politics in this country - the tories get far too much undeserved credit. When it comes to economic competence I'd argue they've shown anything but throughout at least the past 30 years, possibly even as far back as WW2 (but I haven't looked into that specifically). Compare this with Labour having a pretty damned good run of the economy from 1997 to 2008 - instead they get blamed for it going wrong. The tories and their austerity policies prove to be completely deficient compared to other developed economies - not a word said about it other than the mantra of "balance the books" which ironically just shows they have no bloody idea about national level economics.
I'd also like to extend it to defense. Again something that the tories get credit for being "strong" on - despite the fact that although it might not have been the outright cause, defense cuts played a major role in the start of the falklands war (which again, the tories get credit for!). It's utterly absurd.
from here, it really looks/sounds like they're just the least incompetent lately?
like, the part of the shambles that is least on fire?
Control of the media (aside from the BBC who wouldn't point out these sort of issues for fear of being partisan) is a hell of a thing.
Plus the Tories say Serious Things about economic policy that ring with truthiness amongst the minds of the voters - factual evidence can't compete with that.
yeah, when we're only a week or two past a real danger of Farage, Gove or Johnson getting the position, you look at May and think, well at least she's competent. She might , and most probably will, fuck me over on purpose, but at least she won't do it several more times simply because she's too stupid to realise she's doing it
Try as i might there is no part of me that can look at May and think "phew, I'm glad she's in charge". To me she's just a different flavour of bad.