H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited September 2017
@This with regards to the NX-01, I believe Asmodeus was just talking about the interiors (particularly the bridge).
I was just recently thinking about what were my favorite ships in the franchise; generally speaking I prefer the external designs of the original crew's film era (esp. Reliant, Enterprise-A, Excelsior, and the Klingon Bird of Prey). But my favorite Federation design in the franchise is the Enterprise-E from the Next Generation films. And it clicked for the first time (for me) in the two decades since its introduction... The Sovereign class totally looks like an update of the Excelsior profile, the biggest change being the thing I was most iffy about in the old design (the right-angle Nacelle arms).
God I hate the current thing of shooting action in such a hectic way that you can't actually tell what's happening. The most impressive bits of the space battle were the rare bits where it lingered on a wide shot and gave you a chance to appreciate the scale of what was happening like when the ships initially open fire on eachother, the rest was very messy.
A lot will come down to what the rest of the Discovery crew is like. SciFi in general and Trek especially lives or dies on the main cast.
I agree very strongly on these two points.
The former is something I've been saying for like a decade now (not remotely specific to Trek). It worked for Saving Private Ryan and Gladiator, but they both made fairly limited use of it (mostly in the opening sequences for impact, then tapered off as the films progress IIRC), but note that those were infantry on ground or large-scale, hectic melee fights. When a film has giant robots (Transformers) or spaceships fighting, the filmmakers really do themselves a disservice by not giving the audience the opportunity to really take in the spectacle of what's going on. I've seen it suggested that it is popular with filmmakers as a way to try and cheat special effects limitations or choreography that might be a bit wonky, but if its being used as a cop-out that just makes it worse in my opinion.
On the latter, at the risk of repeating myself; regardless of anything else I have to say about it, whether I actually like a series or film comes down to writing, direction, and acting.
Personally, I tend to believe that the reason there hasn't been anything post-Voyager is just simply the Federation is getting too powerful. They can beat the borg, they won the dominion war. It's just getting harder and harder to relate to as they advance more and more. It gets to that point where it doesn't seem like advanced technology a few hundred years in the future, it might as well be magic.
They also goosed everything up with the transphasic torpedoes and replicator-armor. You just really can't sweep that stuff under the rug. Not to mention all the other tech they gained while in the delta quadrant that can be put into full use now that they have the resources of the federation. It's just a bad monty haul D&D campaign now. Feature creep to the extreme.
They kinda take their utopian society for granted too. It's easy to just wave your hands and say everyone gets along now and we solved all these huge societal problems. like magic. It's tougher to take a stand and maybe give some commentary on HOW those problems got solved, you stray too close to politics, which hey, Star Trek used to have no problem doing that, but there has been a definite trend towards dumbing down Trek.
Personally, I tend to believe that the reason there hasn't been anything post-Voyager is just simply the Federation is getting too powerful. They can beat the borg, they won the dominion war. It's just getting harder and harder to relate to as they advance more and more. It gets to that point where it doesn't seem like advanced technology a few hundred years in the future, it might as well be magic.
They also goosed everything up with the transphasic torpedoes and replicator-armor. You just really can't sweep that stuff under the rug. Not to mention all the other tech they gained while in the delta quadrant that can be put into full use now that they have the resources of the federation. It's just a bad monty haul D&D campaign now. Feature creep to the extreme.
They kinda take their utopian society for granted too. It's easy to just wave your hands and say everyone gets along now and we solved all these huge societal problems. like magic. It's tougher to take a stand and maybe give some commentary on HOW those problems got solved, you stray too close to politics, which hey, Star Trek used to have no problem doing that, but there has been a definite trend towards dumbing down Trek.
The idea that you cannot merely retcon or sweep under the rug canonical events or discoveries that one feels are an impediment to the story or aesthetic you want to effect seems to run highly counter to what I've been hearing from certain other segments of the fanbase, some in this thread in particular! I can't help but think that the people who are alright with the changes made in service of creating Discovery as it is wouldn't have been too upset if they had overlooked or downplayed certain canon technological accomplishments to make a future trek.
Also I think that there is still room for the Federation to grow, indeed in 100 years one could explore a lot of themes opened up by the end of Voyager and what that might mean for the far future of the Federation after they had fought the Borg and the Dominion and more or less won. And space is vast. Maybe if they wanted to go all SFX and weird alien heavy they could have had the next Star Trek be about exploring a new galaxy, with basically no humanoids at all since, IIRC, the Humanoid race which seeded all of the humanoids we know of in Trek were mostly limited to this galaxy, unless they implied they had a universal reach that I don't recall.
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
Star Trek has been forgetting about super tech for a while now. Remember the super weapon that can turn an entire nebula into a planet in a matter of days? Remember how they can easily travel through time by slingshotting around a star? Remember when they found a way to use the transporter to de-age people, effectively creating a way to make people immortal? Remember when they created a shield that lets a ship survive in the corona of a star? Remember how they can create mines that can replicate endlessly?
i think i made it like, ten minutes into the episode? if that, before I just bailed hard
the writing was so fucking bad. I just couldn't handle it. Set design, costume design, all of the aesthetic side of it looked really good. I was even cool with the new Klingons! But the writing, good lord, it was so fucking bad.
it's one of those "you only have one chance to make a first impression" things. Maybe someone will grow a beard later and it will get its shit together but for now
i think i made it like, ten minutes into the episode? if that, before I just bailed hard
I am absolutely certain that I could give you a random episode of any previous star trek series and you would have absolutely the same response.
I do appreciate that you recognize this could be the case but I think you're doing a fledgling disservice by dropping such vehement disapproval.
i feel that the bar for television writing is higher than it was well
literally 30 years ago when encounter at farpoint came out, for example
at least it is for me
i could sit here and grouse about how it was just a storm of like, everything that drives me up the wall about bad star trek writing condensed into a shotgun blast, but that doesn't seem particularly constructive?
to be frank, agents of shield was poopypants when it came out too, it took like, 14 episodes into its first season to find what the hell it was doing and figure its shit out
sometimes that just is how it is, and i might come back around again on this show if like season 2 comes around and people are like "no dude honest it's totally good now"
but for now, as someone who sat there smashing myself in the face with years of bad Voyager and Enterprise episodes hoping it would get better, no thanks man
i think i made it like, ten minutes into the episode? if that, before I just bailed hard
I am absolutely certain that I could give you a random episode of any previous star trek series and you would have absolutely the same response.
I do appreciate that you recognize this could be the case but I think you're doing a fledgling disservice by dropping such vehement disapproval.
i feel that the bar for television writing is higher than it was well
literally 30 years ago when encounter at farpoint came out, for example
at least it is for me
i could sit here and grouse about how it was just a storm of like, everything that drives me up the wall about bad star trek writing condensed into a shotgun blast, but that doesn't seem particularly constructive?
to be frank, agents of shield was poopypants when it came out too, it took like, 14 episodes into its first season to find what the hell it was doing and figure its shit out
sometimes that just is how it is, and i might come back around again on this show if like season 2 comes around and people are like "no dude honest it's totally good now"
but for now, as someone who sat there smashing myself in the face with years of bad Voyager and Enterprise episodes hoping it would get better, no thanks man
not again
To be fair, Discovery had a better episode quality in its 2 part premiere than the entire first season of AoS pre-Winter Soldier.
i think i made it like, ten minutes into the episode? if that, before I just bailed hard
I am absolutely certain that I could give you a random episode of any previous star trek series and you would have absolutely the same response.
I do appreciate that you recognize this could be the case but I think you're doing a fledgling disservice by dropping such vehement disapproval.
i feel that the bar for television writing is higher than it was well
literally 30 years ago when encounter at farpoint came out, for example
at least it is for me
i could sit here and grouse about how it was just a storm of like, everything that drives me up the wall about bad star trek writing condensed into a shotgun blast, but that doesn't seem particularly constructive?
to be frank, agents of shield was poopypants when it came out too, it took like, 14 episodes into its first season to find what the hell it was doing and figure its shit out
sometimes that just is how it is, and i might come back around again on this show if like season 2 comes around and people are like "no dude honest it's totally good now"
but for now, as someone who sat there smashing myself in the face with years of bad Voyager and Enterprise episodes hoping it would get better, no thanks man
not again
Yes we do have higher bars and less time but that does not mean that all things will immediately clear those bars or prove themselves worthy of our time upon initial impression. The same can be said for shows that start off strong and end without fanfare.
It's appropriate that you mention Agents of Shield because I thought that show was garbage after viewing some episodes of the first season. I did not project that opinion but I did tune out.
I respect wanting a curated selection of episodes to watch but I don't think it's necessarily fair to say anything more than "i didn't like the first 10 minutes"
you did not try to watch star trek discovery. i think that's an inaccuracy and also I apologize for the other trek stuff that burnt you.
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H3KnucklesBut we decide which is rightand which is an illusion.Registered Userregular
edited September 2017
Um, what the hell? What's with the indignation?
"You did not try, sir, unless you watched unto completion, and how dare you publicly air displeasure with a show's pilot in a thread for having discussions about the series!"
The first detail they gave was that they only watched partway, and then gave a very basic summation of what they did and did not like from that portion. I don't see what the problem is?
Pony is a very good writer with an infectious and casual style of speaking that is both intelligent and authoritative.
He admitted to only watching the first ten minutes of the episode and then proceeded to paint a critical Pollock from the shit he took on the entire new series.
It just seems a bit hypercritical and insincere while feeding into current dogma surrounding the series.
He's under no actual obligation to watch X hours before making up his mind. I find myself switching off shows that are obviously bad more quickly these days as well.
I've been defending the show from criticism (without having actually watched anything more than a trailer olol) in this thread because a lot of it is of the "this isn't REAL Star Trek" or "they never would have done this on TNG" variety, and I find a great deal of that unconvincing or simply untrue (they did A on TNG all the damn time, or Star Trek has always done , but if someone just straight up thinks the writing is dumb, well, godspeed brother.
He's under no actual obligation to watch X hours before making up his mind. I find myself switching off shows that are obviously bad more quickly these days as well.
I've been defending the show from criticism (without having actually watched anything more than a trailer olol) in this thread because a lot of it is of the "this isn't REAL Star Trek" or "they never would have done this on TNG" variety, and I find a great deal of that unconvincing or simply untrue (they did A on TNG all the damn time, or Star Trek has always done , but if someone just straight up thinks the writing is dumb, well, godspeed brother.
Dumber than Picard playing a weird ass flute or Wesley tripping over a garden and having to be MURDERED for it? I think critically evaluating Trek episodes is dangerous because one can peel back the onion on ever series and find some real dumb shit.
He's under no actual obligation to watch X hours before making up his mind. I find myself switching off shows that are obviously bad more quickly these days as well.
I've been defending the show from criticism (without having actually watched anything more than a trailer olol) in this thread because a lot of it is of the "this isn't REAL Star Trek" or "they never would have done this on TNG" variety, and I find a great deal of that unconvincing or simply untrue (they did A on TNG all the damn time, or Star Trek has always done , but if someone just straight up thinks the writing is dumb, well, godspeed brother.
Dumber than Picard playing a weird ass flute or Wesley tripping over a garden and having to be MURDERED for it? I think critically evaluating Trek episodes is dangerous because one can peel back the onion on ever series and find some real dumb shit.
Not critically evaluating things sounds like a worse idea. Science fiction shows aren't so rare these days that fans of the genre need to be happy with whatever the studios deign to send our way.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
He's under no actual obligation to watch X hours before making up his mind. I find myself switching off shows that are obviously bad more quickly these days as well.
I've been defending the show from criticism (without having actually watched anything more than a trailer olol) in this thread because a lot of it is of the "this isn't REAL Star Trek" or "they never would have done this on TNG" variety, and I find a great deal of that unconvincing or simply untrue (they did A on TNG all the damn time, or Star Trek has always done , but if someone just straight up thinks the writing is dumb, well, godspeed brother.
Dumber than Picard playing a weird ass flute or Wesley tripping over a garden and having to be MURDERED for it? I think critically evaluating Trek episodes is dangerous because one can peel back the onion on ever series and find some real dumb shit.
Not critically evaluating things sounds like a worse idea. Science fiction shows aren't so rare these days that fans of the genre need to be happy with whatever the studios deign to send our way.
I guess my point is that Star Trek fans really love to pick apart anything post TNG but are very unwilling to put that critical lens back on their nostalgia skewed experience of TNG. I mean, lots of TOS are quite bad. Season one of TNG is terrible. I just don´t get the cognitive dissonance.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
He's under no actual obligation to watch X hours before making up his mind. I find myself switching off shows that are obviously bad more quickly these days as well.
I've been defending the show from criticism (without having actually watched anything more than a trailer olol) in this thread because a lot of it is of the "this isn't REAL Star Trek" or "they never would have done this on TNG" variety, and I find a great deal of that unconvincing or simply untrue (they did A on TNG all the damn time, or Star Trek has always done , but if someone just straight up thinks the writing is dumb, well, godspeed brother.
Dumber than Picard playing a weird ass flute or Wesley tripping over a garden and having to be MURDERED for it? I think critically evaluating Trek episodes is dangerous because one can peel back the onion on ever series and find some real dumb shit.
Not critically evaluating things sounds like a worse idea. Science fiction shows aren't so rare these days that fans of the genre need to be happy with whatever the studios deign to send our way.
I guess my point is that Star Trek fans really love to pick apart anything post TNG but are very unwilling to put that critical lens back on their nostalgia skewed experience of TNG. I mean, lots of TOS are quite bad. Season one of TNG is terrible. I just don´t get the cognitive dissonance.
I'm pretty sure everyone here is open about TNG's growing pains, and we also realize that TOS had crap like space hippies. But TOS and TNG were 50 and 30 years ago respectively, and expectations have increased since then. Even DS9 and Voyager had better first seasons than TNG, and that's not even getting into more recent high end television like The Wire and Breaking Bad; or 'genre' type stuff like The Expanse, the Netflix Marvel shows, or GoT. A series doesn't have to come out hitting home runs, but when I'm talking about weak first seasons, I'm looking at actors getting comfortable with their characters and the writers trying to dial in the themes, personalities and setting. Things have come along to the point where I'm not going to forgive another The Naked Now type episode, no matter how much Denise Crosby underboob they stick in there.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
He's under no actual obligation to watch X hours before making up his mind. I find myself switching off shows that are obviously bad more quickly these days as well.
I've been defending the show from criticism (without having actually watched anything more than a trailer olol) in this thread because a lot of it is of the "this isn't REAL Star Trek" or "they never would have done this on TNG" variety, and I find a great deal of that unconvincing or simply untrue (they did A on TNG all the damn time, or Star Trek has always done , but if someone just straight up thinks the writing is dumb, well, godspeed brother.
Dumber than Picard playing a weird ass flute or Wesley tripping over a garden and having to be MURDERED for it? I think critically evaluating Trek episodes is dangerous because one can peel back the onion on ever series and find some real dumb shit.
Not critically evaluating things sounds like a worse idea. Science fiction shows aren't so rare these days that fans of the genre need to be happy with whatever the studios deign to send our way.
I guess my point is that Star Trek fans really love to pick apart anything post TNG but are very unwilling to put that critical lens back on their nostalgia skewed experience of TNG. I mean, lots of TOS are quite bad. Season one of TNG is terrible. I just don´t get the cognitive dissonance.
I'm pretty sure everyone here is open about TNG's growing pains, and we also realize that TOS had crap like space hippies. But TOS and TNG were 50 and 30 years ago respectively, and expectations have increased since then. Even DS9 and Voyager had better first seasons than TNG, and that's not even getting into more recent high end television like The Wire and Breaking Bad; or 'genre' type stuff like The Expanse, the Netflix Marvel shows, or GoT. A series doesn't have to come out hitting home runs, but when I'm talking about weak first seasons, I'm looking at actors getting comfortable with their characters and the writers trying to dial in the themes, personalities and setting. Things have come along to the point where I'm not going to forgive another The Naked Now type episode, no matter how much Denise Crosby underboob they stick in there.
Okie doke. We are at two episodes of season one so....
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
He's under no actual obligation to watch X hours before making up his mind. I find myself switching off shows that are obviously bad more quickly these days as well.
I've been defending the show from criticism (without having actually watched anything more than a trailer olol) in this thread because a lot of it is of the "this isn't REAL Star Trek" or "they never would have done this on TNG" variety, and I find a great deal of that unconvincing or simply untrue (they did A on TNG all the damn time, or Star Trek has always done , but if someone just straight up thinks the writing is dumb, well, godspeed brother.
Dumber than Picard playing a weird ass flute or Wesley tripping over a garden and having to be MURDERED for it? I think critically evaluating Trek episodes is dangerous because one can peel back the onion on ever series and find some real dumb shit.
Not critically evaluating things sounds like a worse idea. Science fiction shows aren't so rare these days that fans of the genre need to be happy with whatever the studios deign to send our way.
I guess my point is that Star Trek fans really love to pick apart anything post TNG but are very unwilling to put that critical lens back on their nostalgia skewed experience of TNG. I mean, lots of TOS are quite bad. Season one of TNG is terrible. I just don´t get the cognitive dissonance.
I'm pretty sure everyone here is open about TNG's growing pains, and we also realize that TOS had crap like space hippies. But TOS and TNG were 50 and 30 years ago respectively, and expectations have increased since then. Even DS9 and Voyager had better first seasons than TNG, and that's not even getting into more recent high end television like The Wire and Breaking Bad; or 'genre' type stuff like The Expanse, the Netflix Marvel shows, or GoT. A series doesn't have to come out hitting home runs, but when I'm talking about weak first seasons, I'm looking at actors getting comfortable with their characters and the writers trying to dial in the themes, personalities and setting. Things have come along to the point where I'm not going to forgive another The Naked Now type episode, no matter how much Denise Crosby underboob they stick in there.
Okie doke. We are at two episodes of season one so....
There's only 15 episodes in the season and there's a lot of other good shows out there. Plus that walk through the desert bit wasn't that great.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Well, as a life long star trek fan who found other SF loves lately, I enjoyed the episodes.
Burnham makes much more sense when you realize she's basically having extreme Klingon PTSD, and was raised in a society that really doesn't deal with emotions at all.
Well, as a life long star trek fan who found other SF loves lately, I enjoyed the episodes.
Burnham makes much more sense when you realize she's basically having extreme Klingon PTSD, and was raised in a society that really doesn't deal with emotions at all.
I loved the little Vulcan school sphere scene. Also I want a Vulcan school sphere.
Why is it that anyone even remotely affiliated with Vulcans is filled with murderous rage ready to freak out at the drop of a hat?
Because when a Vulcan says they act only on rationality and logic, they're mostly lying, and repression to that degree is unhealthy?
I think it's the case that emotional control is very hard for Vulcan, but they can do it and eventually become very good at it. For non Vulcan, or half Vulcans, their emotional control techniques don't work so well and are always hard.
i would think that for actual, full-blooded vulcans, their emotional control culture (which is a culture, not their biology, see: romulans) is not super damaging necessarily just difficult for most of them
but for half-vulcans or humans being raised in that culture it's actually kinda toxic and awful?
like young spock in Abrams Trek was actually a pretty fucked up person, although he seems to have chilled the fuck out some as he got older and more in tune with his vulcan identity
there's also a straight up brain disease that afflicts some elder vulcans (Sarek had it) and it is not clear whether that disease is caused by a life of doing that shit, which if so.... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Half-Vulcans having a harder time controlling their emotions was a thing even in TOS, though perhaps not quite as ridiculously dramatic as Abrams'. Spock has been shown to break his demeanor on occasion during particularly emotional moments; Usually just through slight facial gestures during moments of levity that a full Vulcan wouldn't let themselves make, but Amok Time is probably the most famous example of showing his emotions, giving the viewer a brief but significant glimpse into just how much Spock actually cared for Jim.
Why is it that anyone even remotely affiliated with Vulcans is filled with murderous rage ready to freak out at the drop of a hat?
Because when a Vulcan says they act only on rationality and logic, they're mostly lying, and repression to that degree is unhealthy?
But dem aliens got different brainy majigs den you
This may actually be true, Vulcans are a psychic race so their minds and bodies aren't entirely identical to humans. They've managed to do some weird, crazy shit with those abilities in canon. IIRC a long, long time ago they were super powerful psychics.
Vulcans are an emotional race (which is echoed in their cousins, the Romulans) - what's changed is that their culture has spent untold millennia controlling their emotions.
i would think that for actual, full-blooded vulcans, their emotional control culture (which is a culture, not their biology, see: romulans) is not super damaging necessarily just difficult for most of them
but for half-vulcans or humans being raised in that culture it's actually kinda toxic and awful?
like young spock in Abrams Trek was actually a pretty fucked up person, although he seems to have chilled the fuck out some as he got older and more in tune with his vulcan identity
there's also a straight up brain disease that afflicts some elder vulcans (Sarek had it) and it is not clear whether that disease is caused by a life of doing that shit, which if so.... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
I thought i actually caught a reference to sareks eventual brain disease. When he was doing the super long range telepathy he said something like "this can be damaging" (i cant remember the exact line he said). I noticed it and wondered if it was referencing his eventual disease.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
I'm fuzzy on the details, but I'm fairly certain that Vulcan self-control was explained as being the result of their super-strong super-smart race ending up with a brutal and vicious world because they acted on their emotions too much instead of controlling them. It was only when they developed the current "emotionless" approach that they were able to achieve peace and a better society.
It's not that Vulcan's don't feel, it's that they engage in a mental discipline which, hopefully, allows them to remove emotion from their thought processes as it impedes what they view as an ideal path to self-improvement and progress. If anything, they feel a lot more than human, but Vulcans train hard to keep those feelings from disrupting their lives and the lives of others.
Not to mention that they're aliens, so saying they're repressing their emotions and it's unhealthy doesn't even remotely apply. They were at peace with themselves for a long-ass time because of their mental discipline, as opposed to the Federation humans who are always firing off another dissident or warlord or somebody trying to destroy some empire or another even as far down the line as DS9.
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I was just recently thinking about what were my favorite ships in the franchise; generally speaking I prefer the external designs of the original crew's film era (esp. Reliant, Enterprise-A, Excelsior, and the Klingon Bird of Prey). But my favorite Federation design in the franchise is the Enterprise-E from the Next Generation films. And it clicked for the first time (for me) in the two decades since its introduction... The Sovereign class totally looks like an update of the Excelsior profile, the biggest change being the thing I was most iffy about in the old design (the right-angle Nacelle arms).
I agree very strongly on these two points.
The former is something I've been saying for like a decade now (not remotely specific to Trek). It worked for Saving Private Ryan and Gladiator, but they both made fairly limited use of it (mostly in the opening sequences for impact, then tapered off as the films progress IIRC), but note that those were infantry on ground or large-scale, hectic melee fights. When a film has giant robots (Transformers) or spaceships fighting, the filmmakers really do themselves a disservice by not giving the audience the opportunity to really take in the spectacle of what's going on. I've seen it suggested that it is popular with filmmakers as a way to try and cheat special effects limitations or choreography that might be a bit wonky, but if its being used as a cop-out that just makes it worse in my opinion.
On the latter, at the risk of repeating myself; regardless of anything else I have to say about it, whether I actually like a series or film comes down to writing, direction, and acting.
http://www.angelfire.com/trek/martok/warbird.html
I just googled it. I picked the nerdiest result.
I’m just surprised the place still exists. It’s gotta be running off the spare CPU cycles on someone’s laptop by now…
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DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
They also goosed everything up with the transphasic torpedoes and replicator-armor. You just really can't sweep that stuff under the rug. Not to mention all the other tech they gained while in the delta quadrant that can be put into full use now that they have the resources of the federation. It's just a bad monty haul D&D campaign now. Feature creep to the extreme.
They kinda take their utopian society for granted too. It's easy to just wave your hands and say everyone gets along now and we solved all these huge societal problems. like magic. It's tougher to take a stand and maybe give some commentary on HOW those problems got solved, you stray too close to politics, which hey, Star Trek used to have no problem doing that, but there has been a definite trend towards dumbing down Trek.
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The idea that you cannot merely retcon or sweep under the rug canonical events or discoveries that one feels are an impediment to the story or aesthetic you want to effect seems to run highly counter to what I've been hearing from certain other segments of the fanbase, some in this thread in particular! I can't help but think that the people who are alright with the changes made in service of creating Discovery as it is wouldn't have been too upset if they had overlooked or downplayed certain canon technological accomplishments to make a future trek.
Also I think that there is still room for the Federation to grow, indeed in 100 years one could explore a lot of themes opened up by the end of Voyager and what that might mean for the far future of the Federation after they had fought the Borg and the Dominion and more or less won. And space is vast. Maybe if they wanted to go all SFX and weird alien heavy they could have had the next Star Trek be about exploring a new galaxy, with basically no humanoids at all since, IIRC, the Humanoid race which seeded all of the humanoids we know of in Trek were mostly limited to this galaxy, unless they implied they had a universal reach that I don't recall.
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i tried watching star trek discovery
tried being the operative phrase
i think i made it like, ten minutes into the episode? if that, before I just bailed hard
the writing was so fucking bad. I just couldn't handle it. Set design, costume design, all of the aesthetic side of it looked really good. I was even cool with the new Klingons! But the writing, good lord, it was so fucking bad.
it's one of those "you only have one chance to make a first impression" things. Maybe someone will grow a beard later and it will get its shit together but for now
nope nope nope
I am absolutely certain that I could give you a random episode of any previous star trek series and you would have absolutely the same response.
I do appreciate that you recognize this could be the case but I think you're doing a fledgling disservice by dropping such vehement disapproval.
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i feel that the bar for television writing is higher than it was well
literally 30 years ago when encounter at farpoint came out, for example
at least it is for me
i could sit here and grouse about how it was just a storm of like, everything that drives me up the wall about bad star trek writing condensed into a shotgun blast, but that doesn't seem particularly constructive?
to be frank, agents of shield was poopypants when it came out too, it took like, 14 episodes into its first season to find what the hell it was doing and figure its shit out
sometimes that just is how it is, and i might come back around again on this show if like season 2 comes around and people are like "no dude honest it's totally good now"
but for now, as someone who sat there smashing myself in the face with years of bad Voyager and Enterprise episodes hoping it would get better, no thanks man
not again
To be fair, Discovery had a better episode quality in its 2 part premiere than the entire first season of AoS pre-Winter Soldier.
Yes we do have higher bars and less time but that does not mean that all things will immediately clear those bars or prove themselves worthy of our time upon initial impression. The same can be said for shows that start off strong and end without fanfare.
It's appropriate that you mention Agents of Shield because I thought that show was garbage after viewing some episodes of the first season. I did not project that opinion but I did tune out.
I respect wanting a curated selection of episodes to watch but I don't think it's necessarily fair to say anything more than "i didn't like the first 10 minutes"
you did not try to watch star trek discovery. i think that's an inaccuracy and also I apologize for the other trek stuff that burnt you.
"You did not try, sir, unless you watched unto completion, and how dare you publicly air displeasure with a show's pilot in a thread for having discussions about the series!"
The first detail they gave was that they only watched partway, and then gave a very basic summation of what they did and did not like from that portion. I don't see what the problem is?
Pony is a very good writer with an infectious and casual style of speaking that is both intelligent and authoritative.
He admitted to only watching the first ten minutes of the episode and then proceeded to paint a critical Pollock from the shit he took on the entire new series.
It just seems a bit hypercritical and insincere while feeding into current dogma surrounding the series.
Depends on how bad he found the writing. I sat through the first ten minutes of The Country Bears and I was trying my ass off to get that far.
I think 'you're watching it wrong' is not a direction we should be going.
He's under no actual obligation to watch X hours before making up his mind. I find myself switching off shows that are obviously bad more quickly these days as well.
I've been defending the show from criticism (without having actually watched anything more than a trailer olol) in this thread because a lot of it is of the "this isn't REAL Star Trek" or "they never would have done this on TNG" variety, and I find a great deal of that unconvincing or simply untrue (they did A on TNG all the damn time, or Star Trek has always done
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Not critically evaluating things sounds like a worse idea. Science fiction shows aren't so rare these days that fans of the genre need to be happy with whatever the studios deign to send our way.
I'm pretty sure everyone here is open about TNG's growing pains, and we also realize that TOS had crap like space hippies. But TOS and TNG were 50 and 30 years ago respectively, and expectations have increased since then. Even DS9 and Voyager had better first seasons than TNG, and that's not even getting into more recent high end television like The Wire and Breaking Bad; or 'genre' type stuff like The Expanse, the Netflix Marvel shows, or GoT. A series doesn't have to come out hitting home runs, but when I'm talking about weak first seasons, I'm looking at actors getting comfortable with their characters and the writers trying to dial in the themes, personalities and setting. Things have come along to the point where I'm not going to forgive another The Naked Now type episode, no matter how much Denise Crosby underboob they stick in there.
There's only 15 episodes in the season and there's a lot of other good shows out there. Plus that walk through the desert bit wasn't that great.
Burnham makes much more sense when you realize she's basically having extreme Klingon PTSD, and was raised in a society that really doesn't deal with emotions at all.
Because when a Vulcan says they act only on rationality and logic, they're mostly lying, and repression to that degree is unhealthy?
But dem aliens got different brainy majigs den you
Ever have a coworker or family member who is aloof and seems uncaring while also arrogantly claiming they're better than you at life?
You just wanna give them a little comeuppance.
I think it's the case that emotional control is very hard for Vulcan, but they can do it and eventually become very good at it. For non Vulcan, or half Vulcans, their emotional control techniques don't work so well and are always hard.
but for half-vulcans or humans being raised in that culture it's actually kinda toxic and awful?
like young spock in Abrams Trek was actually a pretty fucked up person, although he seems to have chilled the fuck out some as he got older and more in tune with his vulcan identity
there's also a straight up brain disease that afflicts some elder vulcans (Sarek had it) and it is not clear whether that disease is caused by a life of doing that shit, which if so.... uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
This may actually be true, Vulcans are a psychic race so their minds and bodies aren't entirely identical to humans. They've managed to do some weird, crazy shit with those abilities in canon. IIRC a long, long time ago they were super powerful psychics.
Vulcans are an emotional race (which is echoed in their cousins, the Romulans) - what's changed is that their culture has spent untold millennia controlling their emotions.
I thought i actually caught a reference to sareks eventual brain disease. When he was doing the super long range telepathy he said something like "this can be damaging" (i cant remember the exact line he said). I noticed it and wondered if it was referencing his eventual disease.
It's not that Vulcan's don't feel, it's that they engage in a mental discipline which, hopefully, allows them to remove emotion from their thought processes as it impedes what they view as an ideal path to self-improvement and progress. If anything, they feel a lot more than human, but Vulcans train hard to keep those feelings from disrupting their lives and the lives of others.
Not to mention that they're aliens, so saying they're repressing their emotions and it's unhealthy doesn't even remotely apply. They were at peace with themselves for a long-ass time because of their mental discipline, as opposed to the Federation humans who are always firing off another dissident or warlord or somebody trying to destroy some empire or another even as far down the line as DS9.