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  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    So I'm playing D&D 4e for the first time in a game run by @Matev

    I built a Swordmage Defender with the Aegis of Ensnarement because it sounded fun, but after a couple combats I've come to understand why Ensnarement is considered poorly designed. No worries though! I'm smart! I'll bet people just haven't tried enough! I bet if I build a wacky enough hybrid I can wrangle something effective out of it!

    Two weeks of workshopping builds later, I have concluded that the 4e character builder is a hero and that Ensnarement is a zero. So I'm switching to Aegis of Shielding, which feels like a failure to be creative on my part. In order to offset that I kept workshopping hybrids to try and build something truly dumb/amazing.

    And behold! I have done it! Critical Failures, may I present to you The Defenseless Defender, an Avenger|Swordmage Hybrid
    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    Lucca, level 12
    Human, Avenger|Swordmage, Dusk Oracle
    Hybrid Talent: Avenger's Censure (Hybrid)
    Avenger's Censure: Censure of Retribution
    Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Fortitude
    Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Shielding
    Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
    Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Holy Symbol)
    Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
    Background: Human - Heir of the Forgotten Gods, Parentage - Noble, Arcane Agent, Refused Admittance, The Five Wraiths, The High One Falls (+2 to Athletics)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 11, Con 12, Dex 11, Int 23, Wis 17, Cha 9.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 10, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 8.


    AC: 22 Fort: 19 Reflex: 23 Will: 24
    HP: 92 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 23

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Athletics +13, Endurance +14, Arcana +17, Insight +14, Religion +17

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics +6, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +9, Heal +9, History +12, Intimidate +5, Nature +9, Perception +9, Stealth +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6

    FEATS
    Human: Hybrid Talent
    Level 1: Rose King's Shield
    Level 2: Initiate of the Faith
    Level 4: White Lotus Riposte
    Level 6: Versatile Expertise
    Level 8: Superior Will
    Level 10: Skill Power
    Level 11: Gambler's Word
    Level 12: Unfailing Courage

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Sword Burst
    Hybrid at-will 1: Focused Fury
    Hybrid at-will 1: Bond of Retribution
    Primordial Adept Starting Feature: Vezzuvu's Eruption
    Skill Power: Reactive Surge
    Hybrid encounter 1: Avenging Echo
    Hybrid daily 1: Dimensional Thunder
    Hybrid utility 2: Blessing of Vengeance
    Hybrid encounter 3: Dimensional Vortex
    Hybrid daily 5: Nine Souls of Wrath
    Hybrid utility 6: Deliverance of Faith
    Hybrid encounter 7: Splinter the Formation
    Hybrid daily 9: Fated Doom
    Hybrid utility 10: Enter the Crucible

    ITEMS
    Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Crossbow Bolts (100), Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing), Holy Symbol, Repeating crossbow
    ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======

    So the main thing to know about 4e Hybrid characters is that you get some (but not all) of the class features from both classes, and that while your weapons proficiencies are everything both classes get combined, your armor proficiencies are only the ones that both classes share. Which means that you usually want to spend your Hybrid Talent Feat to get either Armor Proficiency from the side of the hybrid with better armor choices or some other form of class feature based AC that's provided. The problem with that is if you spend your Hybrid Talent Feat on AC then you don't get to spend it on any other feature that you may be missing. In this case, I wanted the Avenger's Censure of Retribution.

    Why? Because it means every time I get hit by an enemy that isn't my Oath of Enmity target, I get a flat damage boost (Int Mod) to my next attack against my Oath target. In this case, at level one, a +5 damage boost. Cumulative for every hit I take. So I figure - take a couple hits from enemies, cut my Oath target in half, move on to the next guy - should be simple right? Well, without the extra AC feat, my AC plummeted from 20 at level one on a straight Swordmage build to 15 on the hybrid. This was going to mean more than a couple hits, and I was probably going to be using every bit of healing coming out of the party Cleric. Not a good look.

    So I spent some time trying to workshop how to get a more mid-range AC. I wanted to get hit, but not too much. Unfortunately that meant soaking just about every feat I had into ekeing out 1or 2 more AC every two levels. This was not a game I was winning. So then it occurred to me - what if I just gave up on my defenses completely? What if I just assumed I was going to get hit every time and built for that?

    Now I was cooking with charcoal. My first feat was spent on Rose King's Shield, which let me get either 5 or 10 (with movement) temporary hit points every time I used my Focused Fury At-Will attack. Good start, but Focused Fury isn't always the attack I will want use. So what else? Next I picked up the Cleric Multiclass feat that gave me a minor action use of a healing surge - that's 1/4th of my HP back without burdening the cleric. My encounter and daily attack powers were focused on making enemies take damage for being near me - if enemies are going to come play whack-a-mole with me, they should pay for it! My utility powers are focused on more ways of gaining Temporary Hit Points or spending my healing surges. And this means that a run of my feats from levels 2-8 get to be about improving my to-hit, and other character benefits rather than just trying to boost AC. By level 12 I have 3 ways to generate Temp HP, 6 ways to spend a Healing Surge, and 5 ways of punishing enemies who enter melee with me.

    Plus all that with Aegis of Shielding which allows me to just negate damage to my teammates if the enemies get past me.

    Will it work? I don't know. The math might not be in my favor over the long haul if monster damage seriously outpaces my ability to heal. The good news is that if I survive finding out it doesn't work, 4e lets your retrain your powers and feats so you can fix your character a bit one level at a time. But I think it might just work. After all, while conventional Defender wisdom is to make enemies waste attacks on you by being hard to hit, I'm still fulfilling the Defender Maxim of "Make all the enemy's choices bad ones" by negating their ability to hurt my allies, or punishing them severely for even coming near me.

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG now featured at the Exigency Forum
    ToxRhesus PositiveElvenshaeMsAnthropyDarkPrimusInfidelJustTeecrimsoncoyoteNotoriusBEN
  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    I am proud of you for this terror you’ve constructed.

    I am simultaneously frantically working on ways to make sure that plus Mechyl and Travok’s nonsense doesn’t completely blank the game as set up thus far. (It needed tweaking anyways to make things more interesting)

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
    RingoElvenshaeMsAnthropy
  • AuralynxAuralynx Thirty-Seven Keys Registered User regular
    Matev wrote: »
    I am proud of you for this terror you’ve constructed.

    I am simultaneously frantically working on ways to make sure that plus Mechyl and Travok’s nonsense doesn’t completely blank the game as set up thus far. (It needed tweaking anyways to make things more interesting)

    ... do I need to, like, try at Evoker now?

    Space... what is the point of it? You have no idea.
    5f0qjnu1xfzo.png


    RingoElvenshae
  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    Auralynx wrote: »
    Matev wrote: »
    I am proud of you for this terror you’ve constructed.

    I am simultaneously frantically working on ways to make sure that plus Mechyl and Travok’s nonsense doesn’t completely blank the game as set up thus far. (It needed tweaking anyways to make things more interesting)

    ... do I need to, like, try at Evoker now?

    My level 7 encounter power allows me to rearrange every enemy within a burst 2 of my target. I saw that and just thought, "So I move 'em and the Invoker nukes, and we're done"

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG now featured at the Exigency Forum
    webguy20
  • ToxTox I kill threads Punch DimensionRegistered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    So I'm playing D&D 4e for the first time in a game run by Matev

    I built a Swordmage Defender with the Aegis of Ensnarement because it sounded fun, but after a couple combats I've come to understand why Ensnarement is considered poorly designed. No worries though! I'm smart! I'll bet people just haven't tried enough! I bet if I build a wacky enough hybrid I can wrangle something effective out of it!

    Two weeks of workshopping builds later, I have concluded that the 4e character builder is a hero and that Ensnarement is a zero. So I'm switching to Aegis of Shielding, which feels like a failure to be creative on my part. In order to offset that I kept workshopping hybrids to try and build something truly dumb/amazing.

    And behold! I have done it! Critical Failures, may I present to you The Defenseless Defender, an Avenger|Swordmage Hybrid
    ====== Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&D Character Builder ======
    Lucca, level 12
    Human, Avenger|Swordmage, Dusk Oracle
    Hybrid Talent: Avenger's Censure (Hybrid)
    Avenger's Censure: Censure of Retribution
    Hybrid Avenger: Hybrid Avenger Fortitude
    Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid): Aegis of Shielding
    Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Heavy Blade)
    Versatile Expertise: Versatile Expertise (Holy Symbol)
    Human Power Selection: Bonus At-Will Power
    Background: Human - Heir of the Forgotten Gods, Parentage - Noble, Arcane Agent, Refused Admittance, The Five Wraiths, The High One Falls (+2 to Athletics)

    FINAL ABILITY SCORES
    Str 11, Con 12, Dex 11, Int 23, Wis 17, Cha 9.

    STARTING ABILITY SCORES
    Str 10, Con 11, Dex 10, Int 18, Wis 14, Cha 8.


    AC: 22 Fort: 19 Reflex: 23 Will: 24
    HP: 92 Surges: 8 Surge Value: 23

    TRAINED SKILLS
    Athletics +13, Endurance +14, Arcana +17, Insight +14, Religion +17

    UNTRAINED SKILLS
    Acrobatics +6, Bluff +5, Diplomacy +5, Dungeoneering +9, Heal +9, History +12, Intimidate +5, Nature +9, Perception +9, Stealth +6, Streetwise +5, Thievery +6

    FEATS
    Human: Hybrid Talent
    Level 1: Rose King's Shield
    Level 2: Initiate of the Faith
    Level 4: White Lotus Riposte
    Level 6: Versatile Expertise
    Level 8: Superior Will
    Level 10: Skill Power
    Level 11: Gambler's Word
    Level 12: Unfailing Courage

    POWERS
    Bonus At-Will Power: Sword Burst
    Hybrid at-will 1: Focused Fury
    Hybrid at-will 1: Bond of Retribution
    Primordial Adept Starting Feature: Vezzuvu's Eruption
    Skill Power: Reactive Surge
    Hybrid encounter 1: Avenging Echo
    Hybrid daily 1: Dimensional Thunder
    Hybrid utility 2: Blessing of Vengeance
    Hybrid encounter 3: Dimensional Vortex
    Hybrid daily 5: Nine Souls of Wrath
    Hybrid utility 6: Deliverance of Faith
    Hybrid encounter 7: Splinter the Formation
    Hybrid daily 9: Fated Doom
    Hybrid utility 10: Enter the Crucible

    ITEMS
    Adventurer's Kit, Longsword, Crossbow Bolts (100), Cloth Armor (Basic Clothing), Holy Symbol, Repeating crossbow
    ====== Copy to Clipboard and Press the Import Button on the Summary Tab ======
    So the main thing to know about 4e Hybrid characters is that you get some (but not all) of the class features from both classes, and that while your weapons proficiencies are everything both classes get combined, your armor proficiencies are only the ones that both classes share. Which means that you usually want to spend your Hybrid Talent Feat to get either Armor Proficiency from the side of the hybrid with better armor choices or some other form of class feature based AC that's provided. The problem with that is if you spend your Hybrid Talent Feat on AC then you don't get to spend it on any other feature that you may be missing. In this case, I wanted the Avenger's Censure of Retribution.

    Why? Because it means every time I get hit by an enemy that isn't my Oath of Enmity target, I get a flat damage boost (Int Mod) to my next attack against my Oath target. In this case, at level one, a +5 damage boost. Cumulative for every hit I take. So I figure - take a couple hits from enemies, cut my Oath target in half, move on to the next guy - should be simple right? Well, without the extra AC feat, my AC plummeted from 20 at level one on a straight Swordmage build to 15 on the hybrid. This was going to mean more than a couple hits, and I was probably going to be using every bit of healing coming out of the party Cleric. Not a good look.

    So I spent some time trying to workshop how to get a more mid-range AC. I wanted to get hit, but not too much. Unfortunately that meant soaking just about every feat I had into ekeing out 1or 2 more AC every two levels. This was not a game I was winning. So then it occurred to me - what if I just gave up on my defenses completely? What if I just assumed I was going to get hit every time and built for that?

    Now I was cooking with charcoal. My first feat was spent on Rose King's Shield, which let me get either 5 or 10 (with movement) temporary hit points every time I used my Focused Fury At-Will attack. Good start, but Focused Fury isn't always the attack I will want use. So what else? Next I picked up the Cleric Multiclass feat that gave me a minor action use of a healing surge - that's 1/4th of my HP back without burdening the cleric. My encounter and daily attack powers were focused on making enemies take damage for being near me - if enemies are going to come play whack-a-mole with me, they should pay for it! My utility powers are focused on more ways of gaining Temporary Hit Points or spending my healing surges. And this means that a run of my feats from levels 2-8 get to be about improving my to-hit, and other character benefits rather than just trying to boost AC. By level 12 I have 3 ways to generate Temp HP, 6 ways to spend a Healing Surge, and 5 ways of punishing enemies who enter melee with me.

    Plus all that with Aegis of Shielding which allows me to just negate damage to my teammates if the enemies get past me.

    Will it work? I don't know. The math might not be in my favor over the long haul if monster damage seriously outpaces my ability to heal. The good news is that if I survive finding out it doesn't work, 4e lets your retrain your powers and feats so you can fix your character a bit one level at a time. But I think it might just work. After all, while conventional Defender wisdom is to make enemies waste attacks on you by being hard to hit, I'm still fulfilling the Defender Maxim of "Make all the enemy's choices bad ones" by negating their ability to hurt my allies, or punishing them severely for even coming near me.

    This is a good thing you've done, and I'm proud of you for taking advantage of 4e's ability to make interesting character flavors that result in ludicrous mechanical designs. It reminds me of my Tiefling "defender" which is a Blackguard|Executioner hybrid. Sure, it can defend! But it's mostly just going to kill you dead with a quickness.

    Wishlists! General | Gaming | Comics | Dilige, et quod vis fac
    RingoElvenshaeMsAnthropycrimsoncoyote
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    I freaking love 4e character gen. I'd probably whip something up right now if I could get the program to work.

    wpyz0Y5.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    DenadaSleepjdarksunMsAnthropyToxMatevdresdenphileFuselage
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I freaking love 4e character gen. I'd probably whip something up right now if I could get the program to work.

    I'm curious what the issue is. I've recently installed it on a variety of windows 10 machines and it worked ok. I did move it out of the the C:\Program Files\ thing but otherwise nothing really special.

    MsAnthropy
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, penny and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    Woo! Darth Galto got his building! Gentrify, gentrify, gentrify! This social character is doing super well.

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    RingoElvenshaeMatev
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I freaking love 4e character gen. I'd probably whip something up right now if I could get the program to work.

    I'm curious what the issue is. I've recently installed it on a variety of windows 10 machines and it worked ok. I did move it out of the the C:\Program Files\ thing but otherwise nothing really special.

    I asked Ringo about it and his advice helped get it working again. :biggrin:

    wpyz0Y5.png
    Gamertag: PrimusD | Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
    DevoutlyApatheticRingoMsAnthropyMatev
  • MsAnthropyMsAnthropy Our Lady of Perpetual Mazes The CageRegistered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    I freaking love 4e character gen. I'd probably whip something up right now if I could get the program to work.

    I'm curious what the issue is. I've recently installed it on a variety of windows 10 machines and it worked ok. I did move it out of the the C:\Program Files\ thing but otherwise nothing really special.

    I asked Ringo about it and his advice helped get it working again. :biggrin:

    This whole discussion has got me jonesing to run 4th when my group switches back to our Zeitgeist campaign from our current run with Age of Rebellion. So much so that I went out and found copies of the old Masterplan software and the various compendium libraries. The program shows its age, but it’s still one of the best tools for managing a camapiagn that I’ve seen.

    (Here’s hoping I can get my players to give the idea at least a single session as a try. The funny thing is that they already play 5th like it is a tactical combat game. Their encounters at 3rd level were already taking 45-90 minutes...)

    "The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    I keep thinking about how I'd want to house rule combat in D&D and similar games so that fights happen quickly and decisively like in League of Legends. I think the key is a very few choices with powerful results, and really swingy combat to make things fun. The corollary to that is, just like in League, giving up once you're certain you're outmatched.

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
    KadokenMatev
  • Hahnsoo1Hahnsoo1 Make Ready. We Hunt.Registered User regular
    I keep thinking about how I'd want to house rule combat in D&D and similar games so that fights happen quickly and decisively like in League of Legends. I think the key is a very few choices with powerful results, and really swingy combat to make things fun. The corollary to that is, just like in League, giving up once you're certain you're outmatched.
    Minimizing actual rolling of dice helps. That’s 10-20 seconds (or more) per dice roll. I did not realize how slow that makes a game until I played One Roll Engine and had breezy combats with a lot of tactical decisions that took less than 30 minutes to resolve completely (and often took way less than that). And it even has hit locations...

    Di87pOF.jpg
    PSN: Hahnsoo | MHGU: Hahnsoo, Switch FC: SW-0085-2679-5212
    italianranmaKadokenElvenshaeMatev
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, penny and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited July 10
    I keep thinking about how I'd want to house rule combat in D&D and similar games so that fights happen quickly and decisively like in League of Legends. I think the key is a very few choices with powerful results, and really swingy combat to make things fun. The corollary to that is, just like in League, giving up once you're certain you're outmatched.
    If my player sees this
    Don’t you fuckin’ look at me
    From what I have seen of LoL, I’m not sure that’s how I would describe it.

    But yes to everything else. Can you also set the swingy combat to swing?

    FE: Deciding how I want to introduce this new ongoing villain to the combined group. He comes from a showman background, being groomed by a merchant to make him big money as part of an ensemble of entertainers with his impressive tricks and pyromantic displays (actually hidden sorcery). He killed that merchant in a fit of inconsolable rage after learning he paid someone to off his parents so he could basically raise him to be loyal to him. Then he got picked up by the main overall antagonist group who trained him to hone his power and are similarly using him unbeknownst to him. They gave him command of their resources to kill the combined parties because they've been causing trouble for them. So he's a bit vain, childish, show-offy, and revels in feeling like he's in control. He's also something of a coward and (to keep him alive) has a tendency to stomp off angrily when he's losing and has a number of protective gadgets and tech. He is a powerful pyromancer, but that's the last resort especially with the Suede Denim Secret Police.

    They have been lured into a Dredd/The Raid situation. No one has questioned it, and even outside the game one of the players has remarked they totally believe this will be an easy dry run of killing a group of gangers that has caused them and the hive they're in trouble in the past. It's a big 'ol trap with all the daemons, sorcery, and cultists that want them and the combined group of arbitrators and local enforcers dead. They're to be dropped off at the penthouse where the headquarters big ganger crime lord is hiding with all his knowledge of the other locations of the gang's bases and such. They're to kill everyone else and exfiltrate with him in tow.

    So, I've set up a few things for them once they get inside. First, a great big energy shield meant for a voidship will cover the building. No one gets in or out, as the archaeotech it's using is extremely good. Where the Tarot, the antagonist conspiracy, got something like that is another story I already have a thing planned out for. Second, all communications will be blocked off and strand the arbitrators, including the arbites marshall of the planet, and the party in the different parts of the high-rise. Third, a dulcet psychically charged aria will be heard through the speakers built into the walls along with the cameras planted to follow the party and make flanking and ambushing them easier by distracting their senses (with a willpower test). Fourth, and finally, that character whose name is Uriah Davrus, the "Showstopper", will taunt them and simultaneously command the forces ambushing them.

    Now, do I make his voice the first thing they hear so they know they're in something bigger, or do I wait until the first ambush has taken place so that the shield, aria, and vox cut-off is spookier? Because if they hear some jack-ass over the speakers taunt them, then they know it's a trap already and will act accordingly. However, if it comes too late, then I feel that the impact of this asshole who will be hounding them over the course of the next adventures will be lost a bit.

    In this penthouse, the gangers have been outfitted with gas-masks, night vision, and stronger weaponry like bolters. Those are actually tied into a previous adventure the newer group did as they're the last of a stolen Sisters of Battle shipment that have been used in previous adventures. Along with them are witches outfitted with hallucinogenic grenades and mind-altering psychic powers to bring out the Slaanesh cult vibe more. Furthermore are big boys with big toys and big armour. After them are a concept I stole from Warhammer fantasy, the Mirror Guard, who are the literal sons of a Slaaneshi Space Marine sorceror who are almost clones of him using magicks to birth them in rituals with other Slaaneshi cultists. Moreover are the sanguine suits, suits like the penitance engines the SOB have that are used in Calixis on the planet of Scintilla for nobles to have their fun hunting underhive trash. Then, the daemons. Fiends of slaanesh (they have some tig 'ol biddies I had to cut out of the snip) with their toxic tails. Daemonettes, and the heralds of slaanesh which get bonuses to dominating enemy minds if the daemonettes are near them. Should be a fun time, and the maps that I am using on Roll20 give the players (and me) options in how to attack. They're probably going to want to just straight up blow out the walls in the place since a lot of them, at least on the first two of the three floors of the penthouse, are thin metal.

    FE2: I did it at the end of the session to leave them off knowing something was wrong when they fell into the trap.

    FE3: this a pretty good make up since the newer group can focus on the basic ganger and zealot mooks while the vet group, if they’re smart, will have to prioritize on the elites and daemons. Unless it’s the techpriest with the storm bolter where he can spread his eight shots out to everyone. He’s the reason I feel good about the final battle having 20 zealot meat shields with autopistols and chainswords to soak up fire while the daemons get into place.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    MatevDracomicron
  • NeadenNeaden Registered User regular
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    If, as a GM, you're introducing an NPC as a solution to a challenge you're planning to present your players then you are, almost by definition, doing it wrong. Challenges should be based on what the players' characters can do or, failing that, be a reason for the players to go find an NPC to help them overcome said challenges. Making an NPC who does X because you want the party to have to do X could just as easily be short-circuited by saying, "You have to X but player Y uses Z to get around that. Next scene."

    Has this thread already talked about Kids on Bikes? I recently got my physical copy and, slightly less recently, ran a session of it. I'm not a fan of the mechanical side of it but the whole setup and character creation system is amazeballs. Most intra-party interaction I've ever seen in a one-shot game. We started with nobody having a character and had really solid relationships before the first scene of the actual game, including multiple hooks I worked into the game and effectively pre-existing in-jokes to fall back on. I full intend to steal their character question system for any RPG I run in the future.

    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, penny and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    If, as a GM, you're introducing an NPC as a solution to a challenge you're planning to present your players then you are, almost by definition, doing it wrong. Challenges should be based on what the players' characters can do or, failing that, be a reason for the players to go find an NPC to help them overcome said challenges. Making an NPC who does X because you want the party to have to do X could just as easily be short-circuited by saying, "You have to X but player Y uses Z to get around that. Next scene."

    Has this thread already talked about Kids on Bikes? I recently got my physical copy and, slightly less recently, ran a session of it. I'm not a fan of the mechanical side of it but the whole setup and character creation system is amazeballs. Most intra-party interaction I've ever seen in a one-shot game. We started with nobody having a character and had really solid relationships before the first scene of the actual game, including multiple hooks I worked into the game and effectively pre-existing in-jokes to fall back on. I full intend to steal their character question system for any RPG I run in the future.

    What’s the context to the first paragraph?

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    If, as a GM, you're introducing an NPC as a solution to a challenge you're planning to present your players then you are, almost by definition, doing it wrong. Challenges should be based on what the players' characters can do or, failing that, be a reason for the players to go find an NPC to help them overcome said challenges. Making an NPC who does X because you want the party to have to do X could just as easily be short-circuited by saying, "You have to X but player Y uses Z to get around that. Next scene."

    Has this thread already talked about Kids on Bikes? I recently got my physical copy and, slightly less recently, ran a session of it. I'm not a fan of the mechanical side of it but the whole setup and character creation system is amazeballs. Most intra-party interaction I've ever seen in a one-shot game. We started with nobody having a character and had really solid relationships before the first scene of the actual game, including multiple hooks I worked into the game and effectively pre-existing in-jokes to fall back on. I full intend to steal their character question system for any RPG I run in the future.

    What’s the context to the first paragraph?

    Apparently I was like two pages behind when I decided to write a post. A couple of pages back was a discussion of an EotE session where the GM engineered NPCs to solve situations for the party ahead of time.

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    Steelhawk
  • admanbadmanb the bored genie Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    If, as a GM, you're introducing an NPC as a solution to a challenge you're planning to present your players then you are, almost by definition, doing it wrong. Challenges should be based on what the players' characters can do or, failing that, be a reason for the players to go find an NPC to help them overcome said challenges. Making an NPC who does X because you want the party to have to do X could just as easily be short-circuited by saying, "You have to X but player Y uses Z to get around that. Next scene."

    Has this thread already talked about Kids on Bikes? I recently got my physical copy and, slightly less recently, ran a session of it. I'm not a fan of the mechanical side of it but the whole setup and character creation system is amazeballs. Most intra-party interaction I've ever seen in a one-shot game. We started with nobody having a character and had really solid relationships before the first scene of the actual game, including multiple hooks I worked into the game and effectively pre-existing in-jokes to fall back on. I full intend to steal their character question system for any RPG I run in the future.

    "When one person is the author of both the character's adversity and its resolution, play isn't fun." - Paul Czege.

  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    I mean does that count if I know my players and what they most definitely would do with each of their character's given the situation I'm planning?

    Zomro
  • SteelhawkSteelhawk Registered User regular
    edited July 3
    I'm sure there are anti-railroading in RPG essays out there. Ones that present the scenario in neutral terms from an unrelated party.

    I just can't find a scenario where I can email them to my friend without looking like a passive-aggressive dick. :)

    Steelhawk on
  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    Defenseless Defender update:

    First turn in I elected to take 3 opportunity attacks and they all hit, rendering me unconscious.

    Our Cleric got me on my feet, but the ranger went down twice and the cleric once. We used up all the cleric's heals, a potion, and a Comrade's Succor ritual. For the first encounter of the day.

    I proceeded to roll a nat 20 on being smug about not actually dying

    I am the best defender

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
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  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    Heh, for those of you that remember, I apparently play D&D like I play Phalla :biggrin:

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
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    DevoutlyApatheticRendElvenshaeMatevMarshmallowcrimsoncoyote
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, penny and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited July 5
    Darth Galto in EotE don't know what to do next besides getting money to renovate his building. I guess my original plan, seeing as this is a crappy Nar-Shadaa neighborhood which is why the building was cheap, was to start strong-arming gangsters out and buying out the buildings around to begin my own little empire. Also starting a stock trading company on one of the floors. What would a dark side objectivist do?

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    So I have a ton of rpg books, mostly d20 stuff that I’d like to put in good hands. I thought about dropping them at the free book exchange but I’m afraid they’ll just sit there. Ideally they’d go to someone who wants them for use or collection.

    I figure eBay is probably the best place to try and give stuff, but I’ve been a part of the PA community for a long time and I figured I’d try and see what people might want.

    I’m going to post a list in the next couple days and if anyone wants anything just give me a shout. Pricing is going to be very cheap + shipping, I’m open to negotiation. Probably ~30 books or so I’d just like to give the books a good home if possible since I just don’t have room for them anymore.

    Sorry I don’t have a list immediately available, I’m away this weekend, but I’m going to try and post some stuff Sunday/Monday.

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  • GoodKingJayIIIGoodKingJayIII Registered User regular
    Oh and I just bought a copy of the original WEG Star Wars RPG being rereleased by FFG for its 30th anniversary.

    Yes I am the same person trying to get rid of some rpg books I no longer play and likely never will why do you ask?

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    PSN: Threeve703
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  • DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    Anybody have some insights on Rifts?

    It looks super interesting but 85+ books makes me worry about bloat and overly complicated mechanics.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    Rifts is an interesting setting with a completely garbage system.

    It's both one of the best gaming experiences I've had and one of the more frustrating.

    ElvenshaeHahnsoo1SteelhawkMatevEdith UpwardscaptainkMrVyngaard
  • Edith_Bagot-DixEdith_Bagot-Dix Registered User regular
    Docshifty wrote: »
    Anybody have some insights on Rifts?

    It looks super interesting but 85+ books makes me worry about bloat and overly complicated mechanics.

    I played the crap out of it in the 1990s. The mechanics were bloated, unclear, and non-sensical then, and from what I know they haven't improved.

    That said, the setting is extremely interesting.



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  • DocshiftyDocshifty Registered User regular
    So, take a hammer to the inner workings beforehand, gotcha.

    PwH4Ipj.jpg
    Elvenshae
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Docshifty wrote: »
    So, take a hammer to the inner workings beforehand, gotcha.

    No, just get fluff books and use a different system. I have a soft spot for Rifts, and I would not recommend the system to anyone. Saying Rifts is bloated is like saying the Pacific ocean is a swimming pool.

    PSN|AspectVoid
    Hahnsoo1SteelhawkjdarksunDevoutlyApatheticElvenshaeArdent
  • TomantaTomanta Registered User regular
    There is a Savage Lands version of Rifts now. I don't know how good it is.

  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, penny and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    Breek Galto is going to kill some slavers. That is what I’ll do. I didn’t like wage slavery, I’m not going to like the worse thing.

    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    RingoElvenshae
  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    edited July 7
    Just remember: when you're evil, you only subdue other evil guys (unless it's personal)

    When the evil guys are good and helpless, you convince the people they victimized to give in to their hate and kill their tormentors

    That way you use your competition to teach your new minions that salvation comes through listening to you! Nice and neat

    Ringo on
    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
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  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, penny and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited July 7
    No, I’m going to murder them all. They are slaving children. FE: OHHH. You mean the victims. Oh hell yeah I’ll do that.

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Ringo
  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    No, I’m going to murder them all. They are slaving children.

    Well that's different. Children are not very good at being self sufficient minions

    Freeing them from slavery, leaving them to their own devices, and coming back later to claim the Lord of the Flies survivors is probably your most efficient use of resources

    Also murdering child slavers is just right no matter which side of the Force you're on - it's basically a free reputation booster with anyone who doesn't enslave children

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG now featured at the Exigency Forum
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Ringo wrote: »
    Kadoken wrote: »
    No, I’m going to murder them all. They are slaving children.

    Well that's different. Children are not very good at being self sufficient minions

    Freeing them from slavery, leaving them to their own devices, and coming back later to claim the Lord of the Flies survivors is probably your most efficient use of resources

    Also murdering child slavers is just right no matter which side of the Force you're on - it's basically a free reputation booster with anyone who doesn't enslave children

    Another option is kill the slavers and then present yourself to the child slaves as their new God-King. Treat the kids well and turn them into your fanatical cult of child assassins who will murder anything that you look at funny. Use them to slaughter heroes, as heroes will always hesitate to kill kids, giving your new child assassin cult the perfect opening to strike.

    PSN|AspectVoid
    ElvenshaeRingo
  • RingoRingo Stardust, Golden Caught in a Devil's BargainRegistered User regular
    I feel like you need a decent Dragon (to your Big Bad) to do the actual training of the kids though. Otherwise that's a lot of effort when you could be out evilin'

    Now if you've got a competent and loyal Dragon to do that, I think you're absolutely right. Cults are best when you're the Cult Leader

    ceres wrote: »
    I'm just going to go ahead and lock this thread before I feel any worse about humanity.
    Edcrab's Exigency RPG now featured at the Exigency Forum
  • KadokenKadoken One batch, two batch, penny and hIIIIII Registered User regular
    edited July 7
    We got a 15 year old hanging with us now. They (the rest of the party) don’t want him to be a merc or whatever. I’ll put him to work in the legal finance business I have in the building, see if I can build him up and edumacate him.

    This hitman and pornstar are being very self righteous and want to not let the slaves take revenge against their masters. I just want them to gain their dignity and agency back. I only offer the gun. They don’t have to do it. They set themselves free.

    Edit: we find one more guard hiding in a closet. I stun him, and ask the slaves if they want to take their revenge. The party starts saying some shit about, “what if he’s a nice guard?” A nice guard who enabled child slavery? “Well what if he treated them okay?” He enabled child slavery. “What if he was a slave once and made into a guard?” then he’s the worst and ENABLES CHILD SLAVERY!

    Kadoken on
    I am going to shoot this mystery with my pistol of deduction -Sherlock Holmes (Scott Benson)
    Ringo
  • AspectVoidAspectVoid Registered User regular
    Kadoken wrote: »
    We got a 15 year old hanging with us now. They (the rest of the party) don’t want him to be a merc or whatever. I’ll put him to work in the legal finance business I have in the building, see if I can build him up and edumacate him.

    This hitman and pornstar are being very self righteous and want to not let the slaves take revenge against their masters. I just want them to gain their dignity and agency back. I only offer the gun. They don’t have to do it. They set themselves free.

    Edit: we find one more guard hiding in a closet. I stun him, and ask the slaves if they want to take their revenge. The party starts saying some shit about, “what if he’s a nice guard?” A nice guard who enabled child slavery? “Well what if he treated them okay?” He enabled child slavery. “What if he was a slave once and made into a guard?” then he’s the worst and ENABLES CHILD SLAVERY!

    Your party sucks. Have you considered teaching former child slaves to kill them? It seems like in the long run, it'd be worth the effort.

    PSN|AspectVoid
    ElvenshaePolaritie
  • Mostlyjoe13Mostlyjoe13 Evil, Evil, Jump for joy! Registered User regular
    Tomanta wrote: »
    There is a Savage Lands version of Rifts now. I don't know how good it is.

    You mean Savage Worlds aka. Savage Rifts. It's very functional. It takes SW up a tier to make it work, but the class build options are tight.

    PSN ID - Mostlyjoe Steam ID -TheNotoriusRNG
    MrVyngaard
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