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Trump Administration to Undo 2015 Ban on Police Purchasing Military Gear

BlankzillaBlankzilla KOOKABUNGA LIVESRegistered User regular
edited August 2017 in Debate and/or Discourse
Per Uproxx:

Following a previous report by USA Today on Sunday suggesting as much, Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced that President Trump will soon sign a new executive order lifting the ban on military gear for police previously instituted by President Barack Obama’s administration. While addressing attendees at the annual meeting of the Fraternal Order of Police, the country’s largest police union, Sessions delivered a 20-minute speech peppered with several bouts of applause that pinpointed the president’s intention regarding Obama’s 2015 executive order and the 2014 study that preceded it. Here’s what Sessions said:


“I am here to announce that President Trump is issuing an executive order that will make it easier to protect yourselves and your communities. He is rescinding restrictions from the prior administration that limited your agencies’ ability to get equipment through federal programs, including life saving gear like Kevlar vests and helmets and first responder and rescue equipment like what they’re using in Texas right now.”

In reality, the departments were still able to acquire recycled life saving equipment such as those listed by Sessions, the ban was specifically for military weapons and vehicles such as RPGs.

I didn't see a thread that this fit and it, personally scares the shit out of me so I thought it should be brought up

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  • Kayne Red RobeKayne Red Robe Master of Magic ArcanusRegistered User regular
    Oh for fucks sake.

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  • HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    Trump continues being a petty shit.
    How utterly unsurprising.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Local police do not need a combat tank. Why is this so hard

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    Enc wrote: »
    Local police do not need a combat tank. Why is this so hard

    Literally. Departments were buying MRAPs and shit iirc. Not quite a tank, but...

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  • EclecticGrooveEclecticGroove Registered User regular
    Yes, this is exactly what everyone in the country has been asking for.

    More/easier ability for the police to purchase military grade weaponry.

    (and in case anyone couldn't tell... yes, massive sarcasm)

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Yes, this is exactly what everyone in the country has been asking for.

    More/easier ability for the police to purchase MORE military grade weaponry.

    (and in case anyone couldn't tell... yes, massive sarcasm)

    I fixed that for you. The US police already has PLENTY of military weapons. This is just Trump saying that should also be allowed to have weapons which have no purpose beyond causing mass casualties and allowing them to intimidate large populations into submission with no concern as to public safety.

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  • So It GoesSo It Goes We keep moving...Registered User, Moderator mod
    This is 100% "Obama did it, so I'm undoing it." That's it.

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  • BlankzillaBlankzilla KOOKABUNGA LIVES Registered User regular
    So It Goes wrote: »
    This is 100% "Obama did it, so I'm undoing it." That's it.
    Oh, absolutely

    I just also think it's incredibly horrifying and might lead to some dark shit down the road

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  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Local police do not need a combat tank. Why is this so hard

    Literally. Departments were buying MRAPs and shit iirc. Not quite a tank, but...

    Aripio, from the other thread?

    Bought a straight up howitzer.
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8392/8477200991_f12a80350f_b.jpg

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  • EclecticGrooveEclecticGroove Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Yes, this is exactly what everyone in the country has been asking for.

    More/easier ability for the police to purchase MORE military grade weaponry.

    (and in case anyone couldn't tell... yes, massive sarcasm)

    I fixed that for you. The US police already has PLENTY of military weapons. This is just Trump saying that should also be allowed to have weapons which have no purpose beyond causing mass casualties and allowing them to intimidate large populations into submission with no concern as to public safety.

    I don't disagree in the least.

    I don't think ANY police department needs this stuff, nor should they get it (actual weaponry and equipment, not talking about life saving equipment such as protective gear).

    If they express a need for legitimate military grade combat equipment, there should be a process to allow for a temporary deployment of the national guard to help them out for whatever period of time required to get the situation under control.


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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    One of our local police departments bought a surplus Apache back in the early 2000s before the state reclaimed it. No logical reason they need ordinance of that magnitude!

  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Y'know, Oakland's police department is one of many that has a problem with militarizing to an extreme point. It's also a trigger-happy PD, and has some racial bias issues. And it's the area I grew up.

    So this news? Again, like his pardoning of Arpaio, it feels like a personal slight. Fuck you Trump.

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
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  • EclecticGrooveEclecticGroove Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    One of our local police departments bought a surplus Apache back in the early 2000s before the state reclaimed it. No logical reason they need ordinance of that magnitude!

    The only way I could even conceivably agree with that purchase is if it was stripped of all combat systems and was simply just a really fast helicopter for a cheap price.
    Otherwise... like, are they expecting to fight off armed insurgents alone or something?

    Kayne Red Robe
  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    Pretty sure it still had the machine guns. They bought a tank also, but were allowed to keep that without the cannon.

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    The town in question is a rural hamlet with a population of about 35k.

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  • A Dabble Of TheloniusA Dabble Of Thelonius It has been a doozy of a dayRegistered User regular
    America, please stop ripping off plotlines from Marvel series.

    There are no metahumans to worry about.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    One of our local police departments bought a surplus Apache back in the early 2000s before the state reclaimed it. No logical reason they need ordinance of that magnitude!
    Police departments are bound to prove they've been using equipment too, right? Like they can't just buy it and sit on it, they have to actively put these things to use (because budget tracking is a thing).

    Centrism is just the cowardly way to be a bigot w/o being explicit about it.
    American politics isn't 4D chess, it's just if you give a shit about other people or not.
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Remember, the military liked this program because it let them dump surplus shit on police departments instead of the military having to pay for the continued maintenance/disposal of it all.

    And when police departments get their hands on this stuff... they tend to come up with ways to use it, because otherwise people might start asking why they are spending all this money on this unnecessary equipment. Of course, the fact that they use it doesn't mean that they are actually using it for reasons that would actually reasonably call for the use of such equipment. It's an escalation of force driven by "if you got it, flaunt it," and all it does is ramp up the cost to the the taxpayers and encourage the police to act increasingly militaristic.

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist Registered User regular
    Wow. I didn't realize John Oliver's piece on this was from 2014.. which means the EO Obama signed was after this was produced.

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  • HerrCronHerrCron It that wickedly supports taxation Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Local police do not need a combat tank. Why is this so hard

    Literally. Departments were buying MRAPs and shit iirc. Not quite a tank, but...

    Aripio, from the other thread?

    Bought a straight up howitzer.
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8392/8477200991_f12a80350f_b.jpg

    I don't think you'll find a better embodiment of the impotency and impracticality of the war on drugs.

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  • SleepSleep Registered User regular
    Awe yeah, let's get this place lookin a bit more dystopic.

    The fuckin drug war folks, fuckin up everything since it was invented.

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  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    For fuck's sake police do not need a goddamn MRAP. That is a vehicle designed to plow into a building and withstand explosions on the battlefield. It has no place on civilian streets, which by the way it destroys because the roads weren't built with a fucking MRAP in mind.

    Can't wait for the first story of an MRAP roaring through the front wall of the wrong house.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Yes, this is exactly what everyone in the country has been asking for.

    More/easier ability for the police to purchase MORE military grade weaponry.

    (and in case anyone couldn't tell... yes, massive sarcasm)

    I fixed that for you. The US police already has PLENTY of military weapons. This is just Trump saying that should also be allowed to have weapons which have no purpose beyond causing mass casualties and allowing them to intimidate large populations into submission with no concern as to public safety.

    I don't disagree in the least.

    I don't think ANY police department needs this stuff, nor should they get it (actual weaponry and equipment, not talking about life saving equipment such as protective gear).

    If they express a need for legitimate military grade combat equipment, there should be a process to allow for a temporary deployment of the national guard to help them out for whatever period of time required to get the situation under control.


    That process exists. State governors can do that.

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  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    The more we blur the lines of police and military, the more we blur the lines between citizenry and insurgency.

    I think this is a mix of Obama done it so it's bad, and a mix of Trump openly supporting and advocating for police brutality in the past.

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  • Waffles or whateverWaffles or whatever Previously known as, I shit you not, "Waffen" Registered User regular
    I'm okay with police having MRAPs. Those things are piles of shit and are always broken.

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  • BlindPsychicBlindPsychic Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    For fuck's sake police do not need a goddamn MRAP. That is a vehicle designed to plow into a building and withstand explosions on the battlefield. It has no place on civilian streets, which by the way it destroys because the roads weren't built with a fucking MRAP in mind.

    Can't wait for the first story of an MRAP roaring through the front wall of the wrong house.

    I'm pretty sure there was a story about a PD that got an MRAP a few years ago that they ended up retiring for that exact reason. It just tore up the streets, they ended up only using it for fairs and things like that to show off.

    Fencingsax
  • Dead LegendDead Legend Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    For fuck's sake police do not need a goddamn MRAP. That is a vehicle designed to plow into a building and withstand explosions on the battlefield. It has no place on civilian streets, which by the way it destroys because the roads weren't built with a fucking MRAP in mind.

    Can't wait for the first story of an MRAP roaring through the front wall of the wrong house.

    I'm pretty sure there was a story about a PD that got an MRAP a few years ago that they ended up retiring for that exact reason. It just tore up the streets, they ended up only using it for fairs and things like that to show off.

    There are a couple of places in central TX the last few years that have used their MRAP for tackling flood rescues.

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  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Madican wrote: »
    For fuck's sake police do not need a goddamn MRAP. That is a vehicle designed to plow into a building and withstand explosions on the battlefield. It has no place on civilian streets, which by the way it destroys because the roads weren't built with a fucking MRAP in mind.

    Can't wait for the first story of an MRAP roaring through the front wall of the wrong house.

    Don't worry. The people living next door to a drug dealer are usually poor and unsympathetic, so no-one will care.

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  • SelnerSelner Registered User regular
    So the wiki page for the 1033 Program has some frightening stats regarding that program, which is the one that "transfers" equipment from military to civilian.
    DLA public-affairs chief Kenneth MacNevin stated in 2012, that "more than 30 Arizona police agencies have been suspended or terminated for failing to meet program standards and nine remain under suspension".[18] One of them was the Maricopa County, Arizona law enforcement after failing to account for 20 of the 200 military weapons it had received.[38] The suspension did not affect police acquisition of high powered weaponry due to anti-racketeering or confiscated drug funds, according to Maricopa's Sheriff.[38]

    In North Carolina, law officials are working to reinstate the 1033 program through more rigorous inventory management, after the state was suspended for failing to account for some transferred equipment.[33] North Carolina officials state that 3,303 out of the 4,227 pieces of equipment obtained through the program are tactical items including automatic weapons and military vehicles and the remainder is not used in combat, and includes cots, containers and generators.[33]

    Fusion reported in August 2014 that a total of 184 state and local police departments had been suspended from the program for missing weapons and failure to comply with guidelines.[39] Missing items included M14 and M16 assault rifles, pistols, shotguns, and two Humvee vehicles.[39]

    The page, with cited sources, is here:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1033_program

    The police getting the stuff is concerning enough, but the amount that goes missing is rather alarming as well.

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  • DasUberEdwardDasUberEdward Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    What exactly are the implications of this?

    Is it a concern that there will be more displays of force by the police or the weapons ending up in unlawful hands?

    DasUberEdward on
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  • fightinfilipinofightinfilipino Angry as Hell CharlottesvilleRegistered User regular
    What exactly are the implications of this?

    Is it a concern that there will be more displays of force by the police or the weapons ending up in unlawful hands?

    yes.

    and not to be glib about it, but both already starting happening before politicians, not just Obama, called for a review. even Rand Paul called it problematic.

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  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    What exactly are the implications of this?

    Is it a concern that there will be more displays of force by the police or the weapons ending up in unlawful hands?

    Police, historically, have been required to demonstrate use with uncommon weaponry and equipment to justify their needs. This is why a disproportionate amount of police dollars go to SWAT operations for what would historically be non-SWAT situations - because they have to demonstrate the rediculous battle-van is being used actively and regularly.

    Police will find a need to justify the equipment, because they have to. When police departments start buying tanks, military-grade rifles, RPGs, and what have you the odds of them being used have to be 100%, because otherwise their respective states will take the goods from the local and city authorities.

    And when the Police decide they need to use a tank, or a platoon of heavy assault equipped officers, instead of more responsible or conservative levels of responses, people and property will get hurt and innocents will die.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Like I see this could be a problem, but state and local police are often ridiculously underfunded, and military equipment is way more expensive than their civilian counterparts. I think the impact will be minimal. I mean during Bush the lesser's reign, there wasn't a ton of police departments running around with patriot missile batteries and RPGs.

    Also this doesn't preclude states from saying no you can't buy that without a legit need.

    This is annoying, but honestly what is likely to happen, is Humvees (not those pussy Hummers) will show up in some redneck police forces, more swat teams will have full auto assault rifles, a few MRAPS will get ordered, and some hillbilly is going to get one stuck, which we will mercilessly ridicule him to our own amusement, and not much more. They just don't have the budget for the more exotic items.

  • EncEnc A Fool with Compassion The Land of Flowers (and Dragons)Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    Like I see this could be a problem, but state and local police are often ridiculously underfunded, and military equipment is way more expensive than their civilian counterparts. I think the impact will be minimal. I mean during Bush the lesser's reign, there wasn't a ton of police departments running around with patriot missile batteries and RPGs.

    Also this doesn't preclude states from saying no you can't buy that without a legit need.

    This is annoying, but honestly what is likely to happen, is Humvees (not those pussy Hummers) will show up in some redneck police forces, more swat teams will have full auto assault rifles, a few MRAPS will get ordered, and some hillbilly is going to get one stuck, which we will mercilessly ridicule him to our own amusement, and not much more. They just don't have the budget for the more exotic items.

    I can't speak for every state, but police budgets are at a historic high in Florida, hence:

    Police%20State_0.jpg

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  • MadicanMadican No face Registered User regular
    zepherin wrote: »
    Like I see this could be a problem, but state and local police are often ridiculously underfunded, and military equipment is way more expensive than their civilian counterparts. I think the impact will be minimal. I mean during Bush the lesser's reign, there wasn't a ton of police departments running around with patriot missile batteries and RPGs.

    Also this doesn't preclude states from saying no you can't buy that without a legit need.

    This is annoying, but honestly what is likely to happen, is Humvees (not those pussy Hummers) will show up in some redneck police forces, more swat teams will have full auto assault rifles, a few MRAPS will get ordered, and some hillbilly is going to get one stuck, which we will mercilessly ridicule him to our own amusement, and not much more. They just don't have the budget for the more exotic items.

    Then they will make up for their budget with an increase in civil asset forfeiture against civilians with Sessions backing the move.

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  • HefflingHeffling No Pic EverRegistered User regular
    HerrCron wrote: »
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    Enc wrote: »
    Local police do not need a combat tank. Why is this so hard

    Literally. Departments were buying MRAPs and shit iirc. Not quite a tank, but...

    Aripio, from the other thread?

    Bought a straight up howitzer.
    https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8392/8477200991_f12a80350f_b.jpg

    I don't think you'll find a better embodiment of the impotency and impracticality of the war on drugs.

    The Trump Administration and McConnell Congress come to mind.

    If a movement doesn't have someone that can sit down opposite those in a position of power and strike a deal, how can that movement achieve success?
  • CelestialBadgerCelestialBadger Registered User regular
    Police are at their most effective when they are seen as peacekeepers. If people living in high-crime areas are afraid to call them for fear of a tank being driven over their neighborhood, they will find other ways of keeping the peace - usually gangs.

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  • zepherinzepherin Registered User regular
    Enc wrote: »
    zepherin wrote: »
    Like I see this could be a problem, but state and local police are often ridiculously underfunded, and military equipment is way more expensive than their civilian counterparts. I think the impact will be minimal. I mean during Bush the lesser's reign, there wasn't a ton of police departments running around with patriot missile batteries and RPGs.

    Also this doesn't preclude states from saying no you can't buy that without a legit need.

    This is annoying, but honestly what is likely to happen, is Humvees (not those pussy Hummers) will show up in some redneck police forces, more swat teams will have full auto assault rifles, a few MRAPS will get ordered, and some hillbilly is going to get one stuck, which we will mercilessly ridicule him to our own amusement, and not much more. They just don't have the budget for the more exotic items.

    I can't speak for every state, but police budgets are at a historic high in Florida, hence:

    Police%20State_0.jpg
    So let me say, Florida's website is the most useless piece of crap when it comes to comparing budgets. So it took a while to get the useful data.

    Yes budgets are at historic highs, but the increases have been less than inflation, and the percentage of budget going to the police is going down, which means the budget is effectively less. I think. Their appropriations page was super confusing.

    Fencingsax
  • dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    edited August 2017
    Police are at their most effective when they are seen as peacekeepers. If people living in high-crime areas are afraid to call them for fear of a tank being driven over their neighborhood, they will find other ways of keeping the peace - usually gangs.

    Origin story of basically every large minority gang is self-policing their community because the cops don't help.

    I thought the giving surplus military equipment to local police was bad because they can't afford the maintenance on it. It's like giving someone with no money a yacht... they can't afford any of the associated costs so you've just actually made them more poor due to taxes... and that's giving the equipment at no cost. Actually coming up with funds to purchase equipment seems like it should be plain old illegal.

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  • EclecticGrooveEclecticGroove Registered User regular
    What exactly are the implications of this?

    Is it a concern that there will be more displays of force by the police or the weapons ending up in unlawful hands?

    yes

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