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[NAFTA] Renegotiation

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/trump-calls-canada-very-spoiled-difficult-to-deal-with-on-nafta-1.3941862
    OTTAWA – U.S. President Donald Trump is taking aim at Canada, calling his neighbour to the north "very difficult to deal with" and "very spoiled."

    Trump’s scolding comes amid reports in U.S. media that the White House is considering steep tariffs of 25 per cent on imported vehicles.

    I cannot help but feel that termination of NAFTA is inevitable

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  • override367override367 ALL minions Registered User regular
    Does Trump know the US gets a significant percentage of its oil from Canada

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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    They were talking on NPR about how absolutely no one is calling for tariffs on cars, especially given how many manufacturing plants we have in the US. All it would do (if they could even define what an imported car is) would be to hurt the US.

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  • mrondeaumrondeau regular Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    They were talking on NPR about how absolutely no one is calling for tariffs on cars, especially given how many manufacturing plants we have in the US. All it would do (if they could even define what an imported car is) would be to hurt the US.

    It would also be very damaging to Mexico and Canada.

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  • ShadowhopeShadowhope Baa. Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Athenor wrote: »
    They were talking on NPR about how absolutely no one is calling for tariffs on cars, especially given how many manufacturing plants we have in the US. All it would do (if they could even define what an imported car is) would be to hurt the US.

    It would also be very damaging to Mexico and Canada.

    If the US does this, there would inevitably be reciprocal tariffs. It'd be political suicide to roll over and meekly abide by tariffs like that.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
    Welp, we're going full stupid:




    Told that Canada's government says that it's absurd that Canada poses a national security threat - national security being the official rationale here - Commerce Sec Wilbur Ross says, "Governments will say what they say.”

    The official justification for the tariffs is national security. Wilbur Ross flatly says Canada and Mexico are getting hit because NAFTA talks have stalled.

    Daniel Dale is a reporter for the Toronto Star.

    So, because talks have stalled, the response is to bully the other people. Bold move, cotton - let's see how it plays out.

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  • RichyRichy regular Registered User regular
    So, because talks have stalled, the response is to bully the other people. Bold move, cotton - let's see how it plays out.

    That has been Trump's business strategy for decades.

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    Bold move Ross, let's see if it pays off.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    It's not a strategy, it's just a lie. He's mad at Canada and wants protectionist policy because he's an idiot. Claiming it's about national security is because he has to in order to do the tariffs unilaterally.

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  • CouscousCouscous regular Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    Is the commerce secretary outright stating that the reason is something other than national security legally meaningful?

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie regular Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Does the commerce secretary outright stating that the reason is something other than national security legally meaningful?

    It gives legal grounds to sue, I'd imagine, given that they're using "national security" in order to push the tariffs unilaterally.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere regular Registered User regular
    A lot of our allies hands are tied, because they don't want to rupture the relationship with the U.S. over one bad president. The same thing happened with Bush II.

    The other thing that happened with Bush II is that allies felt more empowered to be critical of the U.S. when he was re-elected. Let's hope the same thing doesn't happen here.

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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    A lot of our allies hands are tied, because they don't want to rupture the relationship with the U.S. over one bad president. The same thing happened with Bush II.

    This is actually our second bad president (in recent memory). We'll see if that makes a difference.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere regular Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    A lot of our allies hands are tied, because they don't want to rupture the relationship with the U.S. over one bad president. The same thing happened with Bush II.

    This is actually our second bad president (in recent memory). We'll see if that makes a difference.

    Just electing Obama healed a lot of rifts. I think the thing in the long-term is the effect on foreign relations when a generation whose perspective of America is a nation that alternates between electing sane and insane leaders (reflecting a deep, deep rot across the nation) comes into power.

  • RedTideRedTide regular Registered User regular
    daveNYC wrote: »
    A lot of our allies hands are tied, because they don't want to rupture the relationship with the U.S. over one bad president. The same thing happened with Bush II.

    This is actually our second bad president (in recent memory). We'll see if that makes a difference.

    Just electing Obama healed a lot of rifts. I think the thing in the long-term is the effect on foreign relations when a generation whose perspective of America is a nation that alternates between electing sane and insane leaders (reflecting a deep, deep rot across the nation) comes into power.

    We were also the target of a foreign powers electioneering and only elected this guy clearly due to the technicalities of our system (the popular vote was still super close for Bush).

    The world is clearly expecting this to be over by 2021 and I do not want to imagine the fallout if it's not.

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.

    Trump is really cheesed off about NAFTA because he doesn't understand trade but is really really obsessed with it. As befits the ignorant angry old man who watches nothing but right-wing media that he is.

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  • hippofanthippofant ティンク Registered User regular
    edited May 2018
    KetBra wrote: »


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.



    Already seeing Canadian thoughtpieces that Canada should just walk.

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  • SleepSleep regular Registered User regular
    hippofant wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.



    Already seeing Canadian thoughtpieces that Canada should just walk.

    ... They should

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  • IlpalaIlpala Just this guy, y'know Texas booniesRegistered User regular
    We're literally imposing stricter conditions on a meeting with one of our closest allies than one with fucking North Korea.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Sleep wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.



    Already seeing Canadian thoughtpieces that Canada should just walk.

    ... They should

    Nah. Just keep talking. Don't agree to anything Trump wants, but keep talking.

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  • mrondeaumrondeau regular Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.



    Already seeing Canadian thoughtpieces that Canada should just walk.

    ... They should

    Nah. Just keep talking. Don't agree to anything Trump wants, but keep talking.
    As long as we talk, NAFTA applies. We have no reason not to talk. We also have no reason to agree.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Sleep wrote: »
    hippofant wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.



    Already seeing Canadian thoughtpieces that Canada should just walk.

    ... They should

    Nah. Just keep talking. Don't agree to anything Trump wants, but keep talking.
    As long as we talk, NAFTA applies. We have no reason not to talk. We also have no reason to agree.

    Even if we stop talking I believe NAFTA still applies on the US side.

    Although the politics of a vote on repealing NAFTA would be nasty as fuck for both parties.

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  • ArbitraryDescriptorArbitraryDescriptor regular Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.

    A sundown clause would prevent Trump from making policy decisions after lunch, and probably be a good thing.

    Maybe Trudreau misunderstood Pence's meaning?

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    Athenor wrote: »
    They were talking on NPR about how absolutely no one is calling for tariffs on cars, especially given how many manufacturing plants we have in the US. All it would do (if they could even define what an imported car is) would be to hurt the US.

    It would also be very damaging to Mexico and Canada.

    Long-term possibly not as much. American cars and trucks are very popular in Canada. Should tariffs be reciprocated the demand for those vehicles will still exist and I'm sure Japan and Europe would be happy to eat up that market share.

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  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    KetBra wrote: »


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.

    These people thrive on making their FNC obsessed supporters believe the US is THE exceptional nation and that all other nations poor or rich are mooches dragging their country down. They can't be allowed to believe in mutually beneficial or give-and-take agreements. What's good for them has to be bad for us and though some of these idiot talking heads actually believe this horseshit the idea that the US naturally lost share in a bunch of markets over the last 40 years (while the rich secured their future) is a threat to their power they cannot abide.

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  • PhillisherePhillishere regular Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    KetBra wrote: »


    Paul Wells writes for Macleans

    Wow, this is fucking nuts. A sundown clause in NAFTA as a precondition for meeting an ally? That. is. nuts.

    These people thrive on making their FNC obsessed supporters believe the US is THE exceptional nation and that all other nations poor or rich are mooches dragging their country down. They can't be allowed to believe in mutually beneficial or give-and-take agreements. What's good for them has to be bad for us and though some of these idiot talking heads actually believe this horseshit the idea that the US naturally lost share in a bunch of markets over the last 40 years (while the rich secured their future) is a threat to their power they cannot abide.

    Trump's has transposed domestic American politics onto the global stage, which is something both parties have tried very hard not to do (excepting when they need to kick some Third World nation with a shitty military around). Europeans are liberals, Russians are manly conservatives, and everybody else are dirty minorities mooching off the white man.

    It's working great for the white lumpen proletariat as rhetoric. For everyone else, it's been like watching Wiley Coyote run across the air for nearly a year, sure that he's going to look down at any moment but somehow he keeps going...

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  • AegisAegis regular Not Quite TorontoRegistered User regular
    Coming out of the G6+1 meeting is I guess a shift from Auto (which still isn't resolved) to Canada's dairy supply management system. The US wants it gone, obviously.

    It's a different beast than Auto since it's unique to Canada, and so I imagine an issue that's unlikely to garner as much support from Mexico as an area in which we both get screwed by the US, but it's also a sector we've supported for ages and has lasted through original NAFTA, so we'll see how this plays out. Trump has seen the 270% tariffs number* and is running with it.

    * We levy tariffs of 270% on milk, 245% on cheese and 298% on butter, as the article notes.

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  • KetBraKetBra FISTS OF JUSTICE! Registered User regular
    The funny thing about bitching about supply management is that it's likely on the way out, long term.

    The Americans throwing moody about it might keep it around for a bit longer, though.

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  • psyck0psyck0 regular Registered User regular
    I would like to continue to run 300% tariffs on American milk as the stuff is just disgusting, full of hormones and shit. It is nice being certain that all the milk I drink is actually potable.

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  • mrondeaumrondeau regular Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    psyck0 wrote: »
    I would like to continue to run 300% tariffs on American milk as the stuff is just disgusting, full of hormones and shit. It is nice being certain that all the milk I drink is actually potable.
    Independently of Trump's idiocy, it would be a good idea to stop agricultural import from the US on health ground alone. Also, because it's based on exploiting workers.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    mrondeau wrote: »
    psyck0 wrote: »
    I would like to continue to run 300% tariffs on American milk as the stuff is just disgusting, full of hormones and shit. It is nice being certain that all the milk I drink is actually potable.
    Independently of Trump's idiocy, it would be a good idea to stop agricultural import from the US on health ground alone. Also, because it's based on exploiting workers.

    I mean, sure, if you never want fresh food most of the year.

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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    Yeah American milk can stay in America :)
    Cheese though, there is some damn good cheese and I'm tired of spending $8lb for just regular old Cheddar.

  • mrondeaumrondeau regular Montréal, CanadaRegistered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    mrondeau wrote: »
    psyck0 wrote: »
    I would like to continue to run 300% tariffs on American milk as the stuff is just disgusting, full of hormones and shit. It is nice being certain that all the milk I drink is actually potable.
    Independently of Trump's idiocy, it would be a good idea to stop agricultural import from the US on health ground alone. Also, because it's based on exploiting workers.

    I mean, sure, if you never want fresh food most of the year.

    Not sure I would call it actually fresh, plus we can still import from trustworthy countries like Mexico and China.

  • hawkboxhawkbox regular Registered User regular
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Yeah American milk can stay in America :)
    Cheese though, there is some damn good cheese and I'm tired of spending $8lb for just regular old Cheddar.

    Oooh genuine American processed cheese!

  • GaddezGaddez regular Registered User regular
    My biggest concern with american dairy isn't the relative quality but rather that it's subsidized to a ridiculous degree; according to one report i read it was somewhere around 73% which if i understand it (good chance I don't) means that farmers pay less then a third of production costs.

    Compare that to the canadian farmers who pay way more and get paid way more as a result.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • AridholAridhol Daddliest Catch Registered User regular
    hawkbox wrote: »
    Aridhol wrote: »
    Yeah American milk can stay in America :)
    Cheese though, there is some damn good cheese and I'm tired of spending $8lb for just regular old Cheddar.

    Oooh genuine American processed cheese!

    Tillamook (Sp?) cheese is pretty dang good imo.

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  • kaidkaid regular Registered User regular
    The whole canadian dairy tarrifs seems to be like the US sugar ones. Trying to maintain a commodity with locally available production in a climate barely able to sustain it. Wisconsin has more cows than canada does. Without tariffs the local dairy production in canda likely shuts down almost over night as they simply can't be competitive.

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  • CouscousCouscous regular Registered User regular
    How can you compete with "literally sold for less than it costs to make"?

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Yeah, this assessment of the situation is bad because it ignores the extent to which the industries it is competing with are also protected by their governments. As pointed out above and in other threads this touches on, Trump's position is bullshit because he doesn't know and refuses to acknowledge that the US government is subsidizing their dairy industry just like Canada is. They are just doing it differently.

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