Mercer also just let the Krill know how they do things when captured, thanks to his fake girlfriend. Like, he straight up told her that "we always give fake codes so you'll never know stuff.
So they can now torture the real codes out people since they know that the first codes they get will be fake.
Mercer also just let the Krill know how they do things when captured, thanks to his fake girlfriend. Like, he straight up told her that "we always give fake codes so you'll never know stuff.
So they can now torture the real codes out people since they know that the first codes they get will be fake.
Sure, but how will they know they can trust the second set of codes? Or the third?
How many layers of security does the Union have in place?
Maybe there's just a single layer where any unrecognized code takes you into a procedural generated wild goose chase of info? If they have AI good enough to determine what a person is looking for based on their behavior in the system, then feed them fake information along those lines that was triggered by an incorrect access.
You could give your interrogator codes for days, and as long as you never give them the right one...
Mercer also just let the Krill know how they do things when captured, thanks to his fake girlfriend. Like, he straight up told her that "we always give fake codes so you'll never know stuff.
So they can now torture the real codes out people since they know that the first codes they get will be fake.
Sure, but how will they know they can trust the second set of codes? Or the third?
How many layers of security does the Union have in place?
Maybe there's just a single layer where any unrecognized code takes you into a procedural generated wild goose chase of info? If they have AI good enough to determine what a person is looking for based on their behavior in the system, then feed them fake information along those lines that was triggered by an incorrect access.
You could give your interrogator codes for days, and as long as you never give them the right one...
Even better, even if given the correct code at some point, the Krill won't even be able to trust it without some massive outside verification. Remember, Mercer said weeks(or maybe months?) until they would notice. As long as you don't give the right code first, anything after that will be an even bigger delay and instantly distrusted.
Also the Krill dont seem to get how military ranks work or even Mergers actual position.
The Orville isnt in the armed forces he's an exploratory vessel.
They kidnapped a guy that at best knows a little more than a civilian about military operations because their security is so awful they just let two randos that don't act like Krill at all walk around their ship
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Maybe the Krill won't last much longer. They're arrogant and completely egocentric. They don't try to learn about other cultures. They don't practice diplomacy. According to Mercer, they declare war against everyone they meet. And considering how easily the space orcs beat them, they're at war with at least one enemy who's stronger than they are, in addition to the Union, who is implied to be at least their equal. If the Union doesn't beat them, the space orcs or some other advanced race probably will.
The Orville isnt in the armed forces he's an exploratory vessel.
The Defiant's official mission was exploration and diplomacy in the Gamma Quadrant, and that thing was guns on an engine. The Union Fleet is a direct lift of Starfleet, with science and exploration and diplomacy being the official job of every ship and the planet leveling arsenal of doomsday weapons being there mostly because so many aliens are assholes. At the end of the day they can call it what the want but it's a military.
The Orville isnt in the armed forces he's an exploratory vessel.
The Defiant's official mission was exploration and diplomacy in the Gamma Quadrant, and that thing was guns on an engine. The Union Fleet is a direct lift of Starfleet, with science and exploration and diplomacy being the official job of every ship and the planet leveling arsenal of doomsday weapons being there mostly because so many aliens are assholes. At the end of the day they can call it what the want but it's a military.
it absolutely was not. Defiant's original mission was to fight the Borg and after it was re-assigned to DS9 it was designated an intelligence-gathering vessel to only be used in the Gamma Quadrant as per the treaty with the Romulans. It has absolutely no other function other than blowing shit up and sneaking around in stealth and even that is under the watchful eyes of a Romulan representative.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
By their own admission Krill ships outgun them. They aren't designed for a prolonged fight.
By what we've seen in the show, Orville seems to be something of a middleweight class of ship. Big enough for extended operation and to have fairly extensive technical capabilities, but yeah, it's not a combat vessel and we've seen at least a couple much larger Krill warships.
That's not to say the Union doesn't necessarily have warships, but the setting may be such that the Union doesn't consider it a necessity to actually build those because really really hostile races like the Krill are rare and not widespread. Short of the Krill (and whatever other race they pissed off), the "worst" race so far seems to be that collector race, and even that race seemed perfectly content to maintain its borders and ignore "inferior" races rather than conquer them. Most ships in the setting so far seem combat capable, but the Krill are the only actively warlike species we've seen yet.
It doesn't seem like Star Trek, where the stubborn refusal by the Federation to build warships is really really dumb considering the Romulans and Klingons only build warships (that can also cloak), the Cardassian fleet heavily features warships, all Dominion vessels are warships, and the Borg have a non-zero presence and every one of their ships is a warship. Federation space isn't going to fall apart if they don't build enough science vessels to keep those sweet research points rolling in, but a handful of combat-oriented Federation vessels sure would be nice when it comes to dissuading Klingons from doing dumb shit or dealing with a sudden Borg incursion.
By their own admission Krill ships outgun them. They aren't designed for a prolonged fight.
By what we've seen in the show, Orville seems to be something of a middleweight class of ship. Big enough for extended operation and to have fairly extensive technical capabilities, but yeah, it's not a combat vessel and we've seen at least a couple much larger Krill warships.
That's not to say the Union doesn't necessarily have warships, but the setting may be such that the Union doesn't consider it a necessity to actually build those because really really hostile races like the Krill are rare and not widespread. Short of the Krill (and whatever other race they pissed off), the "worst" race so far seems to be that collector race, and even that race seemed perfectly content to maintain its borders and ignore "inferior" races rather than conquer them. Most ships in the setting so far seem combat capable, but the Krill are the only actively warlike species we've seen yet.
It doesn't seem like Star Trek, where the stubborn refusal by the Federation to build warships is really really dumb considering the Romulans and Klingons only build warships (that can also cloak), the Cardassian fleet heavily features warships, all Dominion vessels are warships, and the Borg have a non-zero presence and every one of their ships is a warship. Federation space isn't going to fall apart if they don't build enough science vessels to keep those sweet research points rolling in, but a handful of combat-oriented Federation vessels sure would be nice when it comes to dissuading Klingons from doing dumb shit or dealing with a sudden Borg incursion.
The interesting thing is how often it's the non-weapony parts of the ship that make the most destructive toys.
Like, sure, they've got a massive navigational deflector array to protect the ship while it's moving at high speed, but it's an open secret that if you ask your engineer to flip a couple of switches and reroute the Mr. Coffee through that deflector, it turns into a giant cannon.
It seems that in 99% of the conflicts where the Fed ships come up against their Romulan or Klingon counterparts, they're on par as far as the weapons and shields go. Maybe if the Enterprise is outnumbered 3 to 1 it goes the other way, but in most 1on1 face downs, the Federation goes for diplomacy not because they have to, but because they can. They've got as much fire power and shields as pretty much anything they're coming up against, plus all the extra science stuff. And all that extra science gear certainly comes in handy when you need to do some improvisational engineering to build a super weapon or to jury rig a sensor net that can detect cloaked ships
The long and short of it is, it seems that the Federation doesn't build war ships because, outside of the Borg and the Dominion, they're capable of fighting or diplomating nearly anything in the galaxy with their science vessels and all purpose cruisers. If they focused on war ships, they'd lose out on the science front, and anyone who's played Master of Orion will tell you that's pretty much just losing the game with extra steps.
How many more times do they have to screw up before they realize that they need to learn about the basic rules of an alien culture before making contact. They already made the exact same mistake in the social media alien episode. This is the kind of thing a tourism agency will tell you if you book a vacation with them.
Except in that previous episode
The people who were caught were undercover and studying the planet to try and learn about it so the Union knew what was up when they finally made official contact
How many more times do they have to screw up before they realize that they need to learn about the basic rules of an alien culture before making contact. They already made the exact same mistake in the social media alien episode. This is the kind of thing a tourism agency will tell you if you book a vacation with them.
Except in that previous episode
The people who were caught were undercover and studying the planet to try and learn about it so the Union knew what was up when they finally made official contact
Yeah though that time they still screwed it up by not being made aware of the fucked legal system
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
My annoyance with this episode was not the surprise twist, it was the fact that the local government
nabs two crewman from an interstellar spaceship, throws them in prison, and then tells the ship to leave. There's no way in hell any government is going to willingly snap up extra "offenders" they have to feed and house if they can just tell them to leave the planet. Not to mention that you have no idea what these people can do; the world leader just got a first-hand look at the fact that an otherwise unassuming crewman can easily bend steel decorations with their bare hands. How do you know the two you've imprisoned can't sweat acid or breath fire? AND the incredibly advanced ship they came from could literally just hover out of reach of all the weapons on your planet and blow up cities until they get their crew back.
I could have bought it if they'd been trying to get tech secrets out of them, but no, just standard prison. That was just too much of a stretch for me, and a very badly-done way to try and force a particular situation.
My annoyance with this episode was not the surprise twist, it was the fact that the local government
nabs two crewman from an interstellar spaceship, throws them in prison, and then tells the ship to leave. There's no way in hell any government is going to willingly snap up extra "offenders" they have to feed and house if they can just tell them to leave the planet. Not to mention that you have no idea what these people can do; the world leader just got a first-hand look at the fact that an otherwise unassuming crewman can easily bend steel decorations with their bare hands. How do you know the two you've imprisoned can't sweat acid or breath fire? AND the incredibly advanced ship they came from could literally just hover out of reach of all the weapons on your planet and blow up cities until they get their crew back.
I could have bought it if they'd been trying to get tech secrets out of them, but no, just standard prison. That was just too much of a stretch for me, and a very badly-done way to try and force a particular situation.
It makes no sense to me that a species who highly values scientific discovery (they're constantly on about new technologies and techniques they've developing), has had no contact with any other alien species, apparently does not have a significant space exploration program, and considers a class of people to be worthless and worthy of nothing better than lifetime imprisonment captures two aliens of different species, apparently is intent on keeping them forever, and then does absolutely nothing to study them.
If humans somehow, for some reason, captured two members of a mixed-species alien delegation come to Earth and imprisoned them, I guarantee you it'd be in some black site a quarter mile below ground where they'd be interrogated and studied to death prior to being dissected and studied some more.
Regarding the Union as a military force - the.... Xyleans? the species both Orville security officers came from, are specifically anti-Union-service because the Union fleet is a military force. They seem to be very pro-science so presumably if the Union fleet were primarily, or even to a large extent, an exploratory and research force they wouldn't be biased against it.
My annoyance with this episode was not the surprise twist, it was the fact that the local government
nabs two crewman from an interstellar spaceship, throws them in prison, and then tells the ship to leave. There's no way in hell any government is going to willingly snap up extra "offenders" they have to feed and house if they can just tell them to leave the planet. Not to mention that you have no idea what these people can do; the world leader just got a first-hand look at the fact that an otherwise unassuming crewman can easily bend steel decorations with their bare hands. How do you know the two you've imprisoned can't sweat acid or breath fire? AND the incredibly advanced ship they came from could literally just hover out of reach of all the weapons on your planet and blow up cities until they get their crew back.
I could have bought it if they'd been trying to get tech secrets out of them, but no, just standard prison. That was just too much of a stretch for me, and a very badly-done way to try and force a particular situation.
It makes no sense to me that a species who highly values scientific discovery (they're constantly on about new technologies and techniques they've developing), has had no contact with any other alien species, apparently does not have a significant space exploration program, and considers a class of people to be worthless and worthy of nothing better than lifetime imprisonment captures two aliens of different species, apparently is intent on keeping them forever, and then does absolutely nothing to study them.
If humans somehow, for some reason, captured two members of a mixed-species alien delegation come to Earth and imprisoned them, I guarantee you it'd be in some black site a quarter mile below ground where they'd be interrogated and studied to death prior to being dissected and studied some more.
Regarding the Union as a military force - the.... Xyleans? the species both Orville security officers came from, are specifically anti-Union-service because the Union fleet is a military force. They seem to be very pro-science so presumably if the Union fleet were primarily, or even to a large extent, an exploratory and research force they wouldn't be biased against it.
Theyre just snobby pricks though. And we see theyre just as bad as humans in the last Alara episode. They just want to pretend they arent
King Riptor on
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The Orville isnt in the armed forces he's an exploratory vessel.
The Defiant's official mission was exploration and diplomacy in the Gamma Quadrant, and that thing was guns on an engine. The Union Fleet is a direct lift of Starfleet, with science and exploration and diplomacy being the official job of every ship and the planet leveling arsenal of doomsday weapons being there mostly because so many aliens are assholes. At the end of the day they can call it what the want but it's a military.
it absolutely was not. USS Ben Sisko's Motherfucking Pimp Hand's original mission was to fight the Borg and after it was re-assigned to DS9 it was designated an intelligence-gathering vessel to only be used in the Gamma Quadrant as per the treaty with the Romulans. It has absolutely no other function other than blowing shit up and sneaking around in stealth and even that is under the watchful eyes of a Romulan representative.
I always liked that the Defiant's guns could tear the ship apart if used too hard.
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L Ron HowardThe duckMinnesotaRegistered Userregular
That was the engines. Somehow. Star Trek exists outside of Newtonian physics where, like a car, you can apparently have so much space torque that you can bend the frame and rip the thing apart.
I thought I remembered that firing the guns too hard also did bad things to the ship until Sisko slapped it into shape. Like they drained the power faster than it could be supplied.
But it's been a long time since I went through DS9, I could be wrong on that one.
I always liked that the Defiant's guns could tear the ship apart if used too hard.
I think in The Expanse (really light spoiler for those who haven't read the books)
the Roci's railgun had to be specially installed so it wouldn't damage the ship when firing? I know at one point in the books it's used in a rather... unorthodox fashion.
"If complete and utter chaos was lightning, then he'd be the sort to stand on a hilltop in a thunderstorm wearing wet copper armour and shouting 'All gods are bastards'."
That was the engines. Somehow. Star Trek exists outside of Newtonian physics where, like a car, you can apparently have so much space torque that you can bend the frame and rip the thing apart.
I mean, they're literally warp engines... A little space bending is to be expected..
I always liked that the Defiant's guns could tear the ship apart if used too hard.
I think in The Expanse (really light spoiler for those who haven't read the books)
the Roci's railgun had to be specially installed so it wouldn't damage the ship when firing? I know at one point in the books it's used in a rather... unorthodox fashion.
Or the Behemoth's guns
which it couldn't fire without practically tearing itself apart because the ship was never designed for that kind of thing, either for the physical kick of the weapons or the energy drain of firing them.
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
I always liked that the Defiant's guns could tear the ship apart if used too hard.
I think in The Expanse (really light spoiler for those who haven't read the books)
the Roci's railgun had to be specially installed so it wouldn't damage the ship when firing? I know at one point in the books it's used in a rather... unorthodox fashion.
Yeah,
They had to heavily reinforce the ship's frame and after the part you are talking about they had structural damage.
That was the engines. Somehow. Star Trek exists outside of Newtonian physics where, like a car, you can apparently have so much space torque that you can bend the frame and rip the thing apart.
It was actually a flaw in the structural integrity fields. "Not being able to perfectly compensate for a force that would normally exert several meganewtons of force" does sound like something that would rip a ship apart (and make everything in it dissolve into a liquid state).
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Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
There was some Star Trek book where one of the NX class ships from Enterprise got hit by some massive force that overwhelmed the inertial dampeners and the entire crew was instantly liquified into the port bulkheads.
I thought I remembered that firing the guns too hard also did bad things to the ship until Sisko slapped it into shape. Like they drained the power faster than it could be supplied.
But it's been a long time since I went through DS9, I could be wrong on that one.
The phasers could deplete a part that's not supposed to get depleted. While they were exiled from DS9 they kept a row of them in the meeting room Sisko had taken over for himself, and had a little ceremony for each one. They literally kept running out of ammo for weapons that don't use ammo.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited January 2019
The bit with Sisko standing them up against the railing always annoys me. Sisko has been on Federation ships, he knows those things buck wildly at the slightest rumor of space turbulence, never mind getting shot up. Are people eating lunch just supposed to live in mortal terror of the ship hitting a space pothole and ending up instantly bludgeoned to death by unsecured phaser modules?
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So they can now torture the real codes out people since they know that the first codes they get will be fake.
How many layers of security does the Union have in place?
Maybe there's just a single layer where any unrecognized code takes you into a procedural generated wild goose chase of info? If they have AI good enough to determine what a person is looking for based on their behavior in the system, then feed them fake information along those lines that was triggered by an incorrect access.
You could give your interrogator codes for days, and as long as you never give them the right one...
The Orville isnt in the armed forces he's an exploratory vessel.
They kidnapped a guy that at best knows a little more than a civilian about military operations because their security is so awful they just let two randos that don't act like Krill at all walk around their ship
Would they be incredibly dangerous? Sure. Would they be extremely savvy on military tactics and strategy and procedure? Probably not.
Well, someone obviously hasn’t read Endymion.
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The Defiant's official mission was exploration and diplomacy in the Gamma Quadrant, and that thing was guns on an engine. The Union Fleet is a direct lift of Starfleet, with science and exploration and diplomacy being the official job of every ship and the planet leveling arsenal of doomsday weapons being there mostly because so many aliens are assholes. At the end of the day they can call it what the want but it's a military.
it absolutely was not. Defiant's original mission was to fight the Borg and after it was re-assigned to DS9 it was designated an intelligence-gathering vessel to only be used in the Gamma Quadrant as per the treaty with the Romulans. It has absolutely no other function other than blowing shit up and sneaking around in stealth and even that is under the watchful eyes of a Romulan representative.
By what we've seen in the show, Orville seems to be something of a middleweight class of ship. Big enough for extended operation and to have fairly extensive technical capabilities, but yeah, it's not a combat vessel and we've seen at least a couple much larger Krill warships.
That's not to say the Union doesn't necessarily have warships, but the setting may be such that the Union doesn't consider it a necessity to actually build those because really really hostile races like the Krill are rare and not widespread. Short of the Krill (and whatever other race they pissed off), the "worst" race so far seems to be that collector race, and even that race seemed perfectly content to maintain its borders and ignore "inferior" races rather than conquer them. Most ships in the setting so far seem combat capable, but the Krill are the only actively warlike species we've seen yet.
It doesn't seem like Star Trek, where the stubborn refusal by the Federation to build warships is really really dumb considering the Romulans and Klingons only build warships (that can also cloak), the Cardassian fleet heavily features warships, all Dominion vessels are warships, and the Borg have a non-zero presence and every one of their ships is a warship. Federation space isn't going to fall apart if they don't build enough science vessels to keep those sweet research points rolling in, but a handful of combat-oriented Federation vessels sure would be nice when it comes to dissuading Klingons from doing dumb shit or dealing with a sudden Borg incursion.
The interesting thing is how often it's the non-weapony parts of the ship that make the most destructive toys.
Like, sure, they've got a massive navigational deflector array to protect the ship while it's moving at high speed, but it's an open secret that if you ask your engineer to flip a couple of switches and reroute the Mr. Coffee through that deflector, it turns into a giant cannon.
It seems that in 99% of the conflicts where the Fed ships come up against their Romulan or Klingon counterparts, they're on par as far as the weapons and shields go. Maybe if the Enterprise is outnumbered 3 to 1 it goes the other way, but in most 1on1 face downs, the Federation goes for diplomacy not because they have to, but because they can. They've got as much fire power and shields as pretty much anything they're coming up against, plus all the extra science stuff. And all that extra science gear certainly comes in handy when you need to do some improvisational engineering to build a super weapon or to jury rig a sensor net that can detect cloaked ships
The long and short of it is, it seems that the Federation doesn't build war ships because, outside of the Borg and the Dominion, they're capable of fighting or diplomating nearly anything in the galaxy with their science vessels and all purpose cruisers. If they focused on war ships, they'd lose out on the science front, and anyone who's played Master of Orion will tell you that's pretty much just losing the game with extra steps.
Except in that previous episode
Yeah though that time they still screwed it up by not being made aware of the fucked legal system
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I could have bought it if they'd been trying to get tech secrets out of them, but no, just standard prison. That was just too much of a stretch for me, and a very badly-done way to try and force a particular situation.
If humans somehow, for some reason, captured two members of a mixed-species alien delegation come to Earth and imprisoned them, I guarantee you it'd be in some black site a quarter mile below ground where they'd be interrogated and studied to death prior to being dissected and studied some more.
Regarding the Union as a military force - the.... Xyleans? the species both Orville security officers came from, are specifically anti-Union-service because the Union fleet is a military force. They seem to be very pro-science so presumably if the Union fleet were primarily, or even to a large extent, an exploratory and research force they wouldn't be biased against it.
They can be scientists out the wazoo, but they all still know how to fire a phaser and punch a dude.
Theyre just snobby pricks though. And we see theyre just as bad as humans in the last Alara episode. They just want to pretend they arent
FTFY
I thought I remembered that firing the guns too hard also did bad things to the ship until Sisko slapped it into shape. Like they drained the power faster than it could be supplied.
But it's been a long time since I went through DS9, I could be wrong on that one.
I think in The Expanse (really light spoiler for those who haven't read the books)
I mean, they're literally warp engines... A little space bending is to be expected..
Or the Behemoth's guns
Yeah,
It was actually a flaw in the structural integrity fields. "Not being able to perfectly compensate for a force that would normally exert several meganewtons of force" does sound like something that would rip a ship apart (and make everything in it dissolve into a liquid state).
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
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The phasers could deplete a part that's not supposed to get depleted. While they were exiled from DS9 they kept a row of them in the meeting room Sisko had taken over for himself, and had a little ceremony for each one. They literally kept running out of ammo for weapons that don't use ammo.
At least put a strap on them or something.
Unless even depletes they can still explode, and.... Yeah nevermind everyone in that room is probably doomed if Not stubs his toe on one.