Bloods EndBlade of TyshallePunch dimensionRegistered Userregular
In my almost complete quest to read all the old EU books, I have finished mercy kill the final wraith and x wing book.
Holy shit it was so good.
Just a good star wars story spy and heist book. No galaxy wide implications, no fate of the force. Just picking up the pieces of the vong war and the events of fate of the jedi.
I miss you Aaron Allston
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
There are far too many posts after that for me to link them all here, but I'd encourage reading the rest of the thread on Twitter. It's a good thread about themes in Star Wars and how TLJ references them and builds upon them.
Rule of 2 works a lot better if you just assume its the period Jedi being a bunch of dipshits about the Sith like always.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Yeah, that was a really good series of tweets. Twitter is such a dumb platform for stuff like that. Dude should've just made a blog post. It was good enough to warrant that.
Yeah, that was a really good series of tweets. Twitter is such a dumb platform for stuff like that. Dude should've just made a blog post. It was good enough to warrant that.
There are far too many posts after that for me to link them all here, but I'd encourage reading the rest of the thread on Twitter. It's a good thread about themes in Star Wars and how TLJ references them and builds upon them.
It works vaguely fine for 'Why it was right for Rose to do what she did..." but it is completely ruined by trying to also use it to justify what Holdo did, and saying it was wrong for Finn to try to do what he did.
Finn did not HATE the cannon. He wanted to save the only friend he had (Finn). He wasn't ramming that cannon because he hated death star lasers, or the operators of death star lasers. He was ramming it to save his friends. And it doesn't MATTER that there were 'visual cues that it wouldn't work'. The hyperspeed ram 'didn't work' until it did. Ramming someone in a landspeeder to save them from crashing 'doesn't work', until it does.
Finn was right to try and ram that laser. He didn't know Rei was about to show up. He didn't know Luke was going to show up and perform a miracle. He was the only chance that the resistance had. Without that door, they were all going to die, and he was the only chance to stop the laser. It doesn't matter whether theres a 1% chance or a 100% chance he needs to try and destroy that laser to save what he loves.
And Rose prevented him from saving what he loved. The fact that two miracles happened immediately after to save them anyway doesn't change that. Rose also hadn't 'earned' that moment, because Finn is clearly in love with Poe. Sorry Rose. Finn was saving what he loved, its just that that's not you.
Holdo also doesn't get to play the 'we don't sacrifice lives' card. Because we know from Finn that most of the people on the ship that she rammed were brainwashed as children and have no choice but to serve the first order. She did the right thing, but she absolutely sacrificed tens of thousands of innocents to do it. If we're having a morality play, ramming a ship crewed by 10000 child soldiers to save 20 or 30 people on your side is not in line with 'we don't sacrifice lives'
Finn ramming the cannon wouldn't of mattered. It would of bought them a couple hours while the First Order brought down another. The was no help coming, no point in buying time.
I do agree, however, that it could of been handled better, presented in a better fashion.
Ramming the laser as a stand in for his hatred of the First Order, I thought the implication was pretty clear.
As to it being the right move to suicide ram it, the point being made is that "the right way" doesn't matter if its for the wrong reasons. Cutting Darth Vader into pieces would have been the right move, but it would have been done out of anger and hatred. Same deal here.
Basically it comes down to "you aren't good because you want to do good, you have to actually be better".
Finn ramming the cannon wouldn't of mattered. It would of bought them a couple hours while the First Order brought down another. The was no help coming, no point in buying time.
I do agree, however, that it could of been handled better, presented in a better fashion.
Then there was no point in Rose denying him his sacrifice. Hell, a few more hours is a few more hours for a miracle. What if like, Luke had decided to get in a quick glass of whale milk before doing his meditation and had shown up 20 minutes later. Or Rei had taken 5 more minutes getting to the Falcon?
I viewed 100% ramming the laser as Finn going, "I won't let you destroy the only friends I have, the man I love, and our hopes!" he decided to ram it after he saw the other people giving in to despair. He was going to give all he had to save them, to buy them a few more hours of life. He was doing EXACTLY what the light side of the force tells you to do.
If I recall correctly Finn says something about "we can't let them win" as he's ramming the laser after being told to pull back and that pretty clearly establishes his mindset as being "gotta destroy the First Order".
Its nearly 1:1 the end of ROTJ except Rose is the robot arm missing a hand.
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
edited August 2018
Go back and watch that scene again and pay attention to what Finn says, and the expressions on his face.
He isn't going all out to ram that cannon to save his friends. He's doing it because he truly hates the First Order at this point and refuses to let them win.
It's like... yaaay, you stopped him from doing the right thing for the wrong reason. Unfortunately, we're all now completely fucked, barring some 11th hour Deus Ex Machina thing showing up.
...Oh hey Luke.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Go back and watch that scene again and pay attention to what Finn says, and the expressions on his face.
He isn't going all out to ram that cannon to save his friends. He's doing it because he truly hates the First Order at this point and refuses to let them win.
Nope, go watch the scene, see that calm look of acceptance on his face? See how all the grimaces he makes correspond exactly to when he has problems with the controls? He's not writing with hate like Annakin was, or when Luke battered at his father.
That shot above is a complete misrepresentation of the scene. Go watch the actual video. See how he closes his eyes? See how he calmly looks ahead, staring down the barrel of a machine. Finn doesn't hate lasers. He's not someone destroying something just because he hates it. He's not someone with nothing to live for, he's not happy to die, he's not doing this because he loves destruction. He's feet from the damn cannon about to blow it up (he hopes), and he's fixing his thoughts on the man he loves, who he'll never be able to tell how he feels.
It's like... yaaay, you stopped him from doing the right thing for the wrong reason. Unfortunately, we're all now completely fucked, barring some 11th hour Deus Ex Machina thing showing up.
...Oh hey Luke.
I mean it's not real life.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
It's like... yaaay, you stopped him from doing the right thing for the wrong reason. Unfortunately, we're all now completely fucked, barring some 11th hour Deus Ex Machina thing showing up.
...Oh hey Luke.
Thats just it, it wasn't the right thing. It was the wrong thing to do at that time and if he hadn't been blinded by hate he would have realized that.
Right, wrong, either way it was trite. Poe finally learned how to call a retreat... when it was his ass doing the sacrificing. Totally a leader that has learned all the lessons. Finn, up to that point, wanted to save Rey and run, what he says in that cockpit doesn't match up with his motivation the entire movie. Make sure Rey doesn't come back to this slaughter and die with it. This was done in service of the corniest line in a series known for corny lines.
My honest to God thought in the theater during the attack was a moment of despair, because Finn was my favorite from TFA, immediately followed by acceptance. I figured, if that were just going to use him for clown stuff, it'd be better if he went out a hero.
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
Right, wrong, either way it was trite. Poe finally learned how to call a retreat... when it was his ass doing the sacrificing. Totally a leader that has learned all the lessons. Finn, up to that point, wanted to save Rey and run, what he says in that cockpit doesn't match up with his motivation the entire movie. Make sure Rey doesn't come back to this slaughter and die with it. This was done in service of the corniest line in a series known for corny lines.
My honest to God thought in the theater during the attack was a moment of despair, because Finn was my favorite from TFA, immediately followed by acceptance. I figured, if that were just going to use him for clown stuff, it'd be better if he went out a hero.
It matches up with his arc in the film. At the beginning of the movie his only motivation was to protect Rey and escape. Then he goes to the casino planet and between what he sees there and what Rose tells him he starts to hate the First Order more than he fears it. Then they get caught on their mission and he has his encounter with Phasma, and that hate just keeps growing.
By the time they're making the assault run on the cannon his motivations have changed. He isn't out there to protect Rey or to save himself. He's also not out there to save the rest of the Resistance. He's out there to stop the First Order - to prevent them from winning. Poe can see that they're too late for their assault to have any meaningful effects and will only lose more Resistance lives, so he calls the attack off. Finn is blinded by hatred at this point rather than motivated by fear or friendship and keeps pressing the attack, forcing Rose to save him.
"I won't let them win" I think lends itself to the interpretation that Finn's doing it out of hatred... if you just look at that particular moment. Everything else about it the scene is focused on Poe's leadership, specifically him learning that making a high-risk run against the enemy isn't worth it in the long run. Prior to this Finn's reaction toward the First Order had always been fear and running away.
For the record I still think the themes of this scene and its resolution are confusing and muddled when compared to Holdo's sacrifice (and to a lesser extent, Luke's). In the film's view her sacrificial attack is warranted, and more importantly validated. Poe's attacks are not. And while I agree that the narrative supports how his earlier attack on the Dreadnought was a tactical and strategic failure, this attack on the Cannon isn't. This is literally their last stand. If unable to destroy the cannon and buy time for reinforcements to arrive, which is their plan, they will all be killed to the last person. In these circumstances it is impossible to win by 'saving who you love'.
Ramming the laser as a stand in for his hatred of the First Order, I thought the implication was pretty clear.
As to it being the right move to suicide ram it, the point being made is that "the right way" doesn't matter if its for the wrong reasons. Cutting Darth Vader into pieces would have been the right move, but it would have been done out of anger and hatred. Same deal here.
Basically it comes down to "you aren't good because you want to do good, you have to actually be better".
It is even more explicit in Finn's arc in the earlier parts of the movie and in TFA.
Finn fails because his heart is in the wrong place. At the end of Canto Bight he tells Rose "it was worth it to give them a black eye". He is about to be imprisoned or killed and the Resistance is going to die and he says #worth, not because "the risk was worth the chance to save them" but because "we did some property damage to rich folks".
In TFA we have the opposite but Finn doesn't realize it. He goes to Starkiller to rescue Rey and with no other purpose. He has no plan. He doesn't want to sacrifice himself. He is just there to help. Han tells him "That isn't how the force works!" and then the movie tells us "No, that is exactly how the force works"
Indeed it seems that "that is exactly how the force works" has been running through all of the main movies. Luke doesn't become a Jedi by fighting Vader he becomes a Jedi by facing his father. He succeeds in getting his friends out not because he hates Vader but because he loves his friends.
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
Yeah, great feel-good line and all. But you're not going to win now anyways because you threw away the 1% chance you had.
They survived through sheer, absolute luck (because nobody at all knew Luke was coming).
What they could have done was play up the concept of faith instead. Don't throw away your life, have faith that something will come through. Or have faith that Luke would show up (meaning the rebels knew he was coming or were praying he would, and the plan was to delay until he got there).
At that point though... no. You didn't really save anything, and you're not going to win. It is game fucking over at that point as far as anybody knew. Luke showing up was, from everyone's point of view, divine luck.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
"I won't let them win" I think lends itself to the interpretation that Finn's doing it out of hatred... if you just look at that particular moment. Everything else about it the scene is focused on Poe's leadership, specifically him learning that making a high-risk run against the enemy isn't worth it in the long run. Prior to this Finn's reaction toward the First Order had always been fear and running away.
For the record I still think the themes of this scene and its resolution are confusing and muddled when compared to Holdo's sacrifice (and to a lesser extent, Luke's). In the film's view her sacrificial attack is warranted, and more importantly validated. Poe's attacks are not. And while I agree that the narrative supports how his earlier attack on the Dreadnought was a tactical and strategic failure, this attack on the Cannon isn't. This is literally their last stand. If unable to destroy the cannon and buy time for reinforcements to arrive, which is their plan, they will all be killed to the last person. In these circumstances it is impossible to win by 'saving who you love'.
Look at his face between 37 and 40 seconds. Thats not hatred, that determination. He's doing it because he knows (correctly) that Poe is wrong. He knows that this is there only chance, and he won't let the First Order kill Finn and destroy the resistance. There is nowhere to run, nowhere to fall back to. Finn KNOWS what the first order will do to him, to his friends. This is no time for cowardice. This is no time for half measures. This is the moment to be a hero. His speeder struggles valiantly, collapsing under the beam, held aloft by his pure dedication and love for Poe.... His hope that noone else will be enslaved to be a soldier like he was...
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
Gods, that line was so bad. Completely juxtaposed by the background of the Death Star laser blowing up the base.
That’d be like Leiah having a gun to Tarkin’s head and ready to kill him before he orders Alderaan destroyed even though she’d be gunned down too. Then Luke stops her and say that ridiculous line while Alderaan explodes in the background.
Then Obi-Wan appears that he next scene and makes everything better.
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
It's nice to know I'm not entirely alone in thinking, "Hmm, I could actually see that being the message of the film. But it's not the greatest lesson taught in the history of cinema. It has some issues."
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
That line itself is worthy of some scrutiny. I mean, they're not an oppressed people hiding out from the Gestapo: they're the freaking galactically sponsored guerrilla force fighting against the First Order. Killing and destroying is what they do. Meanwhile over in the Marvel Universe their summer blockbuster is having the culmination of a Utilitarian Consequential vs Deontology ethical debate in the middle of its 150 minute run time. What I'm saying is that Star Wars needs to step up its game if it wants to explore the philosophy of war in what was essentially an updated version of the 1950's serial hero drama.
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
Gods, that line was so bad. Completely juxtaposed by the background of the Death Star laser blowing up the base.
That’d be like Leiah having a gun to Tarkin’s head and ready to kill him before he orders Alderaan destroyed even though she’d be gunned down too. Then Luke stops her and say that ridiculous line while Alderaan explodes in the background.
Then Obi-Wan appears that he next scene and makes everything better.
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
That line itself is worthy of some scrutiny. I mean, they're not an oppressed people hiding out from the Gestapo: they're the freaking galactically sponsored guerrilla force fighting against the First Order. Killing and destroying is what they do. Meanwhile over in the Marvel Universe their summer blockbuster is having the culmination of a Utilitarian Consequential vs Deontology ethical debate in the middle of its 150 minute run time. What I'm saying is that Star Wars needs to step up its game if it wants to explore the philosophy of war in what was essentially an updated version of the 1950's serial hero drama.
Star Wars is not about the philosophy of war.
There is no logical argument that is being made about what works or what doesn’t or why. It’s a fantasy world where being good wins because it does.
It’s the old acts/Faith argument in Christianity. Where it comes down solidly on acts that faith is not even considered. It’s not the actual act itself that matters but the honest intent behind it. And this works because that is the language of film.
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
That line itself is worthy of some scrutiny. I mean, they're not an oppressed people hiding out from the Gestapo: they're the freaking galactically sponsored guerrilla force fighting against the First Order. Killing and destroying is what they do. Meanwhile over in the Marvel Universe their summer blockbuster is having the culmination of a Utilitarian Consequential vs Deontology ethical debate in the middle of its 150 minute run time. What I'm saying is that Star Wars needs to step up its game if it wants to explore the philosophy of war in what was essentially an updated version of the 1950's serial hero drama.
Star Wars is not about the philosophy of war.
There is no logical argument that is being made about what works or what doesn’t or why. It’s a fantasy world where being good wins because it does.
It’s the old acts/Faith argument in Christianity. Where it comes down solidly on acts that faith is not even considered. It’s not the actual act itself that matters but the honest intent behind it. And this works because that is the language of film.
But the definition of 'good' in Star Wars is being willing to sacrifice yourself for others, and that's literally what Finn was trying to do. He won't let them kill his friends. He won't let them kill Poe. He will save them, and he crawls agonizingly towards the beam, his ship collapsing around him, the music rises, his eyes close is acceptance and peace and the audience prepares themselves for the miracle and...
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
That line itself is worthy of some scrutiny. I mean, they're not an oppressed people hiding out from the Gestapo: they're the freaking galactically sponsored guerrilla force fighting against the First Order. Killing and destroying is what they do. Meanwhile over in the Marvel Universe their summer blockbuster is having the culmination of a Utilitarian Consequential vs Deontology ethical debate in the middle of its 150 minute run time. What I'm saying is that Star Wars needs to step up its game if it wants to explore the philosophy of war in what was essentially an updated version of the 1950's serial hero drama.
Star Wars is not about the philosophy of war.
There is no logical argument that is being made about what works or what doesn’t or why. It’s a fantasy world where being good wins because it does.
It’s the old acts/Faith argument in Christianity. Where it comes down solidly on acts that faith is not even considered. It’s not the actual act itself that matters but the honest intent behind it. And this works because that is the language of film.
But the definition of 'good' in Star Wars is being willing to sacrifice yourself for others, and that's literally what Finn was trying to do. He won't let them kill his friends. He won't let them kill Poe. He will save them, and he crawls agonizingly towards the beam, his ship collapsing around him, the music rises, his eyes close is acceptance and peace and the audience prepares themselves for the miracle and...
BONK!
ROSE!?!?!?!?
Luke was going to kill Vader and presumably try to kill the Emperor to save his friends and realized he was wrong because it still came from a place of hate.
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
That line itself is worthy of some scrutiny. I mean, they're not an oppressed people hiding out from the Gestapo: they're the freaking galactically sponsored guerrilla force fighting against the First Order. Killing and destroying is what they do. Meanwhile over in the Marvel Universe their summer blockbuster is having the culmination of a Utilitarian Consequential vs Deontology ethical debate in the middle of its 150 minute run time. What I'm saying is that Star Wars needs to step up its game if it wants to explore the philosophy of war in what was essentially an updated version of the 1950's serial hero drama.
Star Wars is not about the philosophy of war.
There is no logical argument that is being made about what works or what doesn’t or why. It’s a fantasy world where being good wins because it does.
It’s the old acts/Faith argument in Christianity. Where it comes down solidly on acts that faith is not even considered. It’s not the actual act itself that matters but the honest intent behind it. And this works because that is the language of film.
But the definition of 'good' in Star Wars is being willing to sacrifice yourself for others, and that's literally what Finn was trying to do. He won't let them kill his friends. He won't let them kill Poe. He will save them, and he crawls agonizingly towards the beam, his ship collapsing around him, the music rises, his eyes close is acceptance and peace and the audience prepares themselves for the miracle and...
BONK!
ROSE!?!?!?!?
Luke was going to kill Vader and presumably try to kill the Emperor to save his friends and realized he was wrong because it still came from a place of hate.
Motive isn't enough.
Luke was going to KILL Vader. Killing someone else isn't being willing to sacrifice yourself. He was trying to beat up vader, and then presumably beat up Palpetine. That was what was wrong, he was unwilling to sacrifice, because the dark side had filled his brain with thoughts of victory and glory. He realized just in time that he was wrong, and that there was no victory there. Once he realized that, he could make the right choice. And the right choice was to save his father, because that would come from a place of love and personal sacrifice.
It COULD have been the right choice to fight. If he had been there alone, facing the emperor by himself, then fighting would have been the correct course.
I'm starting to think this is all based off a hilarious over analysis of the word "hate" and how it must tie into Star Wars' meta commentary on the word. Because at no point during that scene is there any indication that Finn is seething with "hate", or that he has to let go of his "hate". And it's just a shallow line on par with such lines as "If you do not master your rage, your rage will master you".
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
That line itself is worthy of some scrutiny. I mean, they're not an oppressed people hiding out from the Gestapo: they're the freaking galactically sponsored guerrilla force fighting against the First Order. Killing and destroying is what they do. Meanwhile over in the Marvel Universe their summer blockbuster is having the culmination of a Utilitarian Consequential vs Deontology ethical debate in the middle of its 150 minute run time. What I'm saying is that Star Wars needs to step up its game if it wants to explore the philosophy of war in what was essentially an updated version of the 1950's serial hero drama.
Star Wars is not about the philosophy of war.
There is no logical argument that is being made about what works or what doesn’t or why. It’s a fantasy world where being good wins because it does.
It’s the old acts/Faith argument in Christianity. Where it comes down solidly on acts that faith is not even considered. It’s not the actual act itself that matters but the honest intent behind it. And this works because that is the language of film.
But the definition of 'good' in Star Wars is being willing to sacrifice yourself for others, and that's literally what Finn was trying to do. He won't let them kill his friends. He won't let them kill Poe. He will save them, and he crawls agonizingly towards the beam, his ship collapsing around him, the music rises, his eyes close is acceptance and peace and the audience prepares themselves for the miracle and...
BONK!
ROSE!?!?!?!?
Luke was going to kill Vader and presumably try to kill the Emperor to save his friends and realized he was wrong because it still came from a place of hate.
Motive isn't enough.
Luke was going to KILL Vader. Killing someone else isn't being willing to sacrifice yourself. He was trying to beat up vader, and then presumably beat up Palpetine. That was what was wrong, he was unwilling to sacrifice, because the dark side had filled his brain with thoughts of victory and glory. He realized just in time that he was wrong, and that there was no victory there. Once he realized that, he could make the right choice. And the right choice was to save his father, because that would come from a place of love and personal sacrifice.
It COULD have been the right choice to fight. If he had been there alone, facing the emperor by himself, then fighting would have been the correct course.
I don't know why the self-sacrifice changes anything. ROTJ establishes that being the Good Guy doesn't justify anything. He realized that you can't just destroy and think you're any better for doing it for different reasons. Rose knew the same.
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
That line itself is worthy of some scrutiny. I mean, they're not an oppressed people hiding out from the Gestapo: they're the freaking galactically sponsored guerrilla force fighting against the First Order. Killing and destroying is what they do. Meanwhile over in the Marvel Universe their summer blockbuster is having the culmination of a Utilitarian Consequential vs Deontology ethical debate in the middle of its 150 minute run time. What I'm saying is that Star Wars needs to step up its game if it wants to explore the philosophy of war in what was essentially an updated version of the 1950's serial hero drama.
Star Wars is not about the philosophy of war.
There is no logical argument that is being made about what works or what doesn’t or why. It’s a fantasy world where being good wins because it does.
It’s the old acts/Faith argument in Christianity. Where it comes down solidly on acts that faith is not even considered. It’s not the actual act itself that matters but the honest intent behind it. And this works because that is the language of film.
But the definition of 'good' in Star Wars is being willing to sacrifice yourself for others, and that's literally what Finn was trying to do. He won't let them kill his friends. He won't let them kill Poe. He will save them, and he crawls agonizingly towards the beam, his ship collapsing around him, the music rises, his eyes close is acceptance and peace and the audience prepares themselves for the miracle and...
BONK!
ROSE!?!?!?!?
He wasn't going to save them, is the thing. They weren't going to get to the cannon in time. The ship he was in was going to be vaporized before it could actually impact and do damage to the cannon.
Also, his anger and hatred towards the First Order was super-apparent to me, and even moreso on my subsequent viewing of the film. And like... your argument is also that because he closes his eyes means he wasn't angry? Dude, resigning yourself to death to accomplish your goal doesn't mean that you aren't full of hatred or anger. Or else I guess all suicide bombers are full of grace and noble intent.
Before everyone dives any further into discussing philosophical concepts, can we all first sit back and agree that the low-level writing for TLJ kind of sucked? There's a distinction to be made between "this idea is bad" and "this idea is reasonable but the script for TLJ did a bad job of expressing it".
"We won't win by fighting what we hate, but by saving what we love."
That line itself is worthy of some scrutiny. I mean, they're not an oppressed people hiding out from the Gestapo: they're the freaking galactically sponsored guerrilla force fighting against the First Order. Killing and destroying is what they do. Meanwhile over in the Marvel Universe their summer blockbuster is having the culmination of a Utilitarian Consequential vs Deontology ethical debate in the middle of its 150 minute run time. What I'm saying is that Star Wars needs to step up its game if it wants to explore the philosophy of war in what was essentially an updated version of the 1950's serial hero drama.
Star Wars is not about the philosophy of war.
There is no logical argument that is being made about what works or what doesn’t or why. It’s a fantasy world where being good wins because it does.
It’s the old acts/Faith argument in Christianity. Where it comes down solidly on acts that faith is not even considered. It’s not the actual act itself that matters but the honest intent behind it. And this works because that is the language of film.
But the definition of 'good' in Star Wars is being willing to sacrifice yourself for others, and that's literally what Finn was trying to do. He won't let them kill his friends. He won't let them kill Poe. He will save them, and he crawls agonizingly towards the beam, his ship collapsing around him, the music rises, his eyes close is acceptance and peace and the audience prepares themselves for the miracle and...
BONK!
ROSE!?!?!?!?
He wasn't going to save them, is the thing. They weren't going to get to the cannon in time. The ship he was in was going to be vaporized before it could actually impact and do damage to the cannon.
Also, his anger and hatred towards the First Order was super-apparent to me, and even moreso on my subsequent viewing of the film. And like... your argument is also that because he closes his eyes means he wasn't angry? Dude, resigning yourself to death to accomplish your goal doesn't mean that you aren't full of hatred or anger. Or else I guess all suicide bombers are full of grace and noble intent.
You cant say, 'Miracles don't happen!" when literally we just had one miracle (light speed ram), and are about to have two more (Luke stops Ren, and Rey arrives just in time)
I say he was going to make it, and that he would have impated the photon discombobulator in the second quintessance core and destroyed it. Death star tech, as we know, is based on unstable laser focusing crystals.
Before everyone dives any further into discussing philosophical concepts, can we all first sit back and agree that the low-level writing for TLJ kind of sucked? There's a distinction to be made between "this idea is bad" and "this idea is reasonable but the script for TLJ did a bad job of expressing it".
Not really.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
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Holy shit it was so good.
Just a good star wars story spy and heist book. No galaxy wide implications, no fate of the force. Just picking up the pieces of the vong war and the events of fate of the jedi.
I miss you Aaron Allston
There are far too many posts after that for me to link them all here, but I'd encourage reading the rest of the thread on Twitter. It's a good thread about themes in Star Wars and how TLJ references them and builds upon them.
A lot less people would see the blog post.
It works vaguely fine for 'Why it was right for Rose to do what she did..." but it is completely ruined by trying to also use it to justify what Holdo did, and saying it was wrong for Finn to try to do what he did.
Finn did not HATE the cannon. He wanted to save the only friend he had (Finn). He wasn't ramming that cannon because he hated death star lasers, or the operators of death star lasers. He was ramming it to save his friends. And it doesn't MATTER that there were 'visual cues that it wouldn't work'. The hyperspeed ram 'didn't work' until it did. Ramming someone in a landspeeder to save them from crashing 'doesn't work', until it does.
Finn was right to try and ram that laser. He didn't know Rei was about to show up. He didn't know Luke was going to show up and perform a miracle. He was the only chance that the resistance had. Without that door, they were all going to die, and he was the only chance to stop the laser. It doesn't matter whether theres a 1% chance or a 100% chance he needs to try and destroy that laser to save what he loves.
And Rose prevented him from saving what he loved. The fact that two miracles happened immediately after to save them anyway doesn't change that. Rose also hadn't 'earned' that moment, because Finn is clearly in love with Poe. Sorry Rose. Finn was saving what he loved, its just that that's not you.
Holdo also doesn't get to play the 'we don't sacrifice lives' card. Because we know from Finn that most of the people on the ship that she rammed were brainwashed as children and have no choice but to serve the first order. She did the right thing, but she absolutely sacrificed tens of thousands of innocents to do it. If we're having a morality play, ramming a ship crewed by 10000 child soldiers to save 20 or 30 people on your side is not in line with 'we don't sacrifice lives'
I do agree, however, that it could of been handled better, presented in a better fashion.
As to it being the right move to suicide ram it, the point being made is that "the right way" doesn't matter if its for the wrong reasons. Cutting Darth Vader into pieces would have been the right move, but it would have been done out of anger and hatred. Same deal here.
Basically it comes down to "you aren't good because you want to do good, you have to actually be better".
Then there was no point in Rose denying him his sacrifice. Hell, a few more hours is a few more hours for a miracle. What if like, Luke had decided to get in a quick glass of whale milk before doing his meditation and had shown up 20 minutes later. Or Rei had taken 5 more minutes getting to the Falcon?
I viewed 100% ramming the laser as Finn going, "I won't let you destroy the only friends I have, the man I love, and our hopes!" he decided to ram it after he saw the other people giving in to despair. He was going to give all he had to save them, to buy them a few more hours of life. He was doing EXACTLY what the light side of the force tells you to do.
Its nearly 1:1 the end of ROTJ except Rose is the robot arm missing a hand.
He isn't going all out to ram that cannon to save his friends. He's doing it because he truly hates the First Order at this point and refuses to let them win.
...Oh hey Luke.
Nope, go watch the scene, see that calm look of acceptance on his face? See how all the grimaces he makes correspond exactly to when he has problems with the controls? He's not writing with hate like Annakin was, or when Luke battered at his father.
That shot above is a complete misrepresentation of the scene. Go watch the actual video. See how he closes his eyes? See how he calmly looks ahead, staring down the barrel of a machine. Finn doesn't hate lasers. He's not someone destroying something just because he hates it. He's not someone with nothing to live for, he's not happy to die, he's not doing this because he loves destruction. He's feet from the damn cannon about to blow it up (he hopes), and he's fixing his thoughts on the man he loves, who he'll never be able to tell how he feels.
"Goodbye Finn... I love you..."
CRASH
"Rose? What the hell are you doing here?
I mean it's not real life.
Thats just it, it wasn't the right thing. It was the wrong thing to do at that time and if he hadn't been blinded by hate he would have realized that.
My honest to God thought in the theater during the attack was a moment of despair, because Finn was my favorite from TFA, immediately followed by acceptance. I figured, if that were just going to use him for clown stuff, it'd be better if he went out a hero.
It matches up with his arc in the film. At the beginning of the movie his only motivation was to protect Rey and escape. Then he goes to the casino planet and between what he sees there and what Rose tells him he starts to hate the First Order more than he fears it. Then they get caught on their mission and he has his encounter with Phasma, and that hate just keeps growing.
By the time they're making the assault run on the cannon his motivations have changed. He isn't out there to protect Rey or to save himself. He's also not out there to save the rest of the Resistance. He's out there to stop the First Order - to prevent them from winning. Poe can see that they're too late for their assault to have any meaningful effects and will only lose more Resistance lives, so he calls the attack off. Finn is blinded by hatred at this point rather than motivated by fear or friendship and keeps pressing the attack, forcing Rose to save him.
"I won't let them win" I think lends itself to the interpretation that Finn's doing it out of hatred... if you just look at that particular moment. Everything else about it the scene is focused on Poe's leadership, specifically him learning that making a high-risk run against the enemy isn't worth it in the long run. Prior to this Finn's reaction toward the First Order had always been fear and running away.
For the record I still think the themes of this scene and its resolution are confusing and muddled when compared to Holdo's sacrifice (and to a lesser extent, Luke's). In the film's view her sacrificial attack is warranted, and more importantly validated. Poe's attacks are not. And while I agree that the narrative supports how his earlier attack on the Dreadnought was a tactical and strategic failure, this attack on the Cannon isn't. This is literally their last stand. If unable to destroy the cannon and buy time for reinforcements to arrive, which is their plan, they will all be killed to the last person. In these circumstances it is impossible to win by 'saving who you love'.
It is even more explicit in Finn's arc in the earlier parts of the movie and in TFA.
Finn fails because his heart is in the wrong place. At the end of Canto Bight he tells Rose "it was worth it to give them a black eye". He is about to be imprisoned or killed and the Resistance is going to die and he says #worth, not because "the risk was worth the chance to save them" but because "we did some property damage to rich folks".
In TFA we have the opposite but Finn doesn't realize it. He goes to Starkiller to rescue Rey and with no other purpose. He has no plan. He doesn't want to sacrifice himself. He is just there to help. Han tells him "That isn't how the force works!" and then the movie tells us "No, that is exactly how the force works"
Indeed it seems that "that is exactly how the force works" has been running through all of the main movies. Luke doesn't become a Jedi by fighting Vader he becomes a Jedi by facing his father. He succeeds in getting his friends out not because he hates Vader but because he loves his friends.
Yeah, great feel-good line and all. But you're not going to win now anyways because you threw away the 1% chance you had.
They survived through sheer, absolute luck (because nobody at all knew Luke was coming).
What they could have done was play up the concept of faith instead. Don't throw away your life, have faith that something will come through. Or have faith that Luke would show up (meaning the rebels knew he was coming or were praying he would, and the plan was to delay until he got there).
At that point though... no. You didn't really save anything, and you're not going to win. It is game fucking over at that point as far as anybody knew. Luke showing up was, from everyone's point of view, divine luck.
The force isn't about having faith. Its about acting with good intent.
Look at his face between 37 and 40 seconds. Thats not hatred, that determination. He's doing it because he knows (correctly) that Poe is wrong. He knows that this is there only chance, and he won't let the First Order kill Finn and destroy the resistance. There is nowhere to run, nowhere to fall back to. Finn KNOWS what the first order will do to him, to his friends. This is no time for cowardice. This is no time for half measures. This is the moment to be a hero. His speeder struggles valiantly, collapsing under the beam, held aloft by his pure dedication and love for Poe.... His hope that noone else will be enslaved to be a soldier like he was...
Bonk
Rose?!
Gods, that line was so bad. Completely juxtaposed by the background of the Death Star laser blowing up the base.
That’d be like Leiah having a gun to Tarkin’s head and ready to kill him before he orders Alderaan destroyed even though she’d be gunned down too. Then Luke stops her and say that ridiculous line while Alderaan explodes in the background.
Then Obi-Wan appears that he next scene and makes everything better.
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That line itself is worthy of some scrutiny. I mean, they're not an oppressed people hiding out from the Gestapo: they're the freaking galactically sponsored guerrilla force fighting against the First Order. Killing and destroying is what they do. Meanwhile over in the Marvel Universe their summer blockbuster is having the culmination of a Utilitarian Consequential vs Deontology ethical debate in the middle of its 150 minute run time. What I'm saying is that Star Wars needs to step up its game if it wants to explore the philosophy of war in what was essentially an updated version of the 1950's serial hero drama.
Or, as a clear contrast, look at Rogue 1.
"If the empire has this kind of power, what chance do we have?"
"What chance do we have? The question is what CHOICE do we have!"
There is no such thing as luck. There is only the Force.
Star Wars is not about the philosophy of war.
There is no logical argument that is being made about what works or what doesn’t or why. It’s a fantasy world where being good wins because it does.
It’s the old acts/Faith argument in Christianity. Where it comes down solidly on acts that faith is not even considered. It’s not the actual act itself that matters but the honest intent behind it. And this works because that is the language of film.
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From a certain point of view.
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But the definition of 'good' in Star Wars is being willing to sacrifice yourself for others, and that's literally what Finn was trying to do. He won't let them kill his friends. He won't let them kill Poe. He will save them, and he crawls agonizingly towards the beam, his ship collapsing around him, the music rises, his eyes close is acceptance and peace and the audience prepares themselves for the miracle and...
BONK!
ROSE!?!?!?!?
Luke was going to kill Vader and presumably try to kill the Emperor to save his friends and realized he was wrong because it still came from a place of hate.
Motive isn't enough.
Luke was going to KILL Vader. Killing someone else isn't being willing to sacrifice yourself. He was trying to beat up vader, and then presumably beat up Palpetine. That was what was wrong, he was unwilling to sacrifice, because the dark side had filled his brain with thoughts of victory and glory. He realized just in time that he was wrong, and that there was no victory there. Once he realized that, he could make the right choice. And the right choice was to save his father, because that would come from a place of love and personal sacrifice.
It COULD have been the right choice to fight. If he had been there alone, facing the emperor by himself, then fighting would have been the correct course.
I don't know why the self-sacrifice changes anything. ROTJ establishes that being the Good Guy doesn't justify anything. He realized that you can't just destroy and think you're any better for doing it for different reasons. Rose knew the same.
He wasn't going to save them, is the thing. They weren't going to get to the cannon in time. The ship he was in was going to be vaporized before it could actually impact and do damage to the cannon.
Also, his anger and hatred towards the First Order was super-apparent to me, and even moreso on my subsequent viewing of the film. And like... your argument is also that because he closes his eyes means he wasn't angry? Dude, resigning yourself to death to accomplish your goal doesn't mean that you aren't full of hatred or anger. Or else I guess all suicide bombers are full of grace and noble intent.
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You cant say, 'Miracles don't happen!" when literally we just had one miracle (light speed ram), and are about to have two more (Luke stops Ren, and Rey arrives just in time)
I say he was going to make it, and that he would have impated the photon discombobulator in the second quintessance core and destroyed it. Death star tech, as we know, is based on unstable laser focusing crystals.
Not really.