And most importantly, no one who gave us Palin is a hero.
I thought the party chose his running mate for him?
Pretty sure he could have said no.
McCain was not the worst of Republicans, might have been among the best towards the end, as faint a praise that might be.
There are people i do think deserve cancer in this world, John McCain was not one of them, i hope his passing was as peaceful as it could be.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
John McCain was a POW in an illegal war. He came back home and learned about Watergate, the bombing of Cambodia, and how Nixon backed away from peace talks because they might hurt his campaign.
John McCain came home from Vietnam and joined the party responsible for all of this.
And most importantly, no one who gave us Palin is a hero.
I thought the party chose his running mate for him?
Pretty sure he could have said no. McCain was not the worst of Republicans, might have been among the best towards the end, as faint a praise that might be.
There are people i do think deserve cancer in this world, John McCain was not one of them, i hope his passing was as peaceful as it could be.
That's about where I am. He was a pretty bad senator whose actions made America and the rest of the world a worse place, but at least he was better then the lot of Republicans we have now.
Of course, McCain’s willingness to do that bare-ass minimum, rare as it was, did set him apart from his Republican colleagues at times. He bucked his party after 9/11 by opposing the use of torture; in one of the last major votes of his life, he urged the Senate to reject the confirmation of CIA director Gina Haspel, who oversaw torture.
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
Sounds like McCain was pretty good at mattering when it was something he was personally invested in.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Sounds like McCain was pretty good at mattering when it was something he was personally invested in.
Or something he was paid for. Remember when he wrote the "Internet Freedom Act," taking AT&T money to try and squash net neutrality?
Edit - Misread the post, not to imply net neutrality is good. Basically saying McCain was self-serving just as any other politician is.
John McCain had a genius for media attention and getting Very Serious People to like him that helped cover up what was a pretty bog standard awful political career. Its why we'll be spending the next week hearing anecdotes about how charming he was that one time in an elevator and nothing about the Keating 5.
At his townhall events while campaigning he routinely turned down opportunities to slander Obama or engage in birtherism, so he had that going for him
Also dude was a legit war hero who refused to go home before other prisoners could
I can think of plenty of not-so-nice things to say about McCain but today is not really the appropriate time for it
While also insinuating that Arabs could not be good, decent, family men.
He voted against the holiday recognizing MLK. Was corrupt.
And most importantly, no one who gave us Palin is a hero.
My understanding was that he realized he needed someone who checked off some underrepresented boxes and picked Palin without having time to vet her. By the time it was clear she was a fucking loon, it was too late.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
At his townhall events while campaigning he routinely turned down opportunities to slander Obama or engage in birtherism, so he had that going for him
Also dude was a legit war hero who refused to go home before other prisoners could
I can think of plenty of not-so-nice things to say about McCain but today is not really the appropriate time for it
While also insinuating that Arabs could not be good, decent, family men.
He voted against the holiday recognizing MLK. Was corrupt.
And most importantly, no one who gave us Palin is a hero.
My understanding was that he realized he needed someone who checked off some underrepresented boxes and picked Palin without having time to vet her. By the time it was clear she was a fucking loon, it was too late.
If only he'd asked her what she likes to read the day he met her.
McCain badly wanted to pick Lieberman, was talked/forced out of it, and was/became convinced that picking a relatively unknown woman with a few video clips of reasonable public performance skills would play into his ‘maverick’ bullshit.
And I’ll grant McCain a few credits, because he did do the right thing a few times when it was very important, and he earned it. But before he stopped a woman short at a rally before she could call Obama a Muslim or some racial epithet, he spent months going along with the narrative that Obama was a dangerous radical and potentially a terrorist, and he never pushed back until Palin’s star was too brightly outshining his own.
The world is worse for the loss of McCain, but that says more about the sorry state of the world than the goodness of the man.
McCain badly wanted to pick Lieberman, was talked/forced out of it, and was/became convinced that picking a relatively unknown woman with a few video clips of reasonable public performance skills would play into his ‘maverick’ bullshit.
And I’ll grant McCain a few credits, because he did do the right thing a few times when it was very important, and he earned it. But before he stopped a woman short at a rally before she could call Obama a Muslim or some racial epithet, he spent months going along with the narrative that Obama was a dangerous radical and potentially a terrorist, and he never pushed back until Palin’s star was too brightly outshining his own.
The world is worse for the loss of McCain, but that says more about the sorry state of the world than the goodness of the man.
Let's not forget the 2008 ad that all but said that Obama was a pervert
McCain was a perfect example of how someone can build a reputation for themselves without actually doing anything to deserve said reputation.
I used to simply give him credit because he would appear on The Daily Show. That's it. That's the bar I set for, "oh he seems alright" without knowing a whole lot about him. That was stupid of me.
McCain was a perfect example of how someone can build a reputation for themselves without actually doing anything to deserve said reputation.
I used to simply give him credit because he would appear on The Daily Show. That's it. That's the bar I set for, "oh he seems alright" without knowing a whole lot about him. That was stupid of me.
I think we've all done that at one point or another. It's a byproduct of being young
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
And most importantly, no one who gave us Palin is a hero.
I thought the party chose his running mate for him?
Pretty sure he could have said no. McCain was not the worst of Republicans, might have been among the best towards the end, as faint a praise that might be.
There are people i do think deserve cancer in this world, John McCain was not one of them, i hope his passing was as peaceful as it could be.
That's about where I am. He was a pretty bad senator whose actions made America and the rest of the world a worse place, but at least he was better then the lot of Republicans we have now.
Of course, McCain’s willingness to do that bare-ass minimum, rare as it was, did set him apart from his Republican colleagues at times. He bucked his party after 9/11 by opposing the use of torture; in one of the last major votes of his life, he urged the Senate to reject the confirmation of CIA director Gina Haspel, who oversaw torture.
Just a note that he flipped to being Pro Torture during his Presidential run
As a senator, he was the best of a bad lot, which sounds like a compliment, but is pretty damming once you see his fellows. In any case I wouldn't expect a conservative senator to align his views with mine in any case.
As a POW, he had the chance to go home, leaving behind torture, abuse and deprivation, purely on his family ties, yet chose to stay anyways. That is the kind of test most people never have to face, much less pass. That takes guts beyond the ordinary.
So on the whole he gets in the plus column for me.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
As a senator, he was the best of a bad lot, which sounds like a compliment, but is pretty damming once you see his fellows. In any case I wouldn't expect a conservative senator to align his views with mine in any case.
As a POW, he had the chance to go home, leaving behind torture, abuse and deprivation, purely on his family ties, yet chose to stay anyways. That is the kind of test most people never have to face, much less pass. That takes guts beyond the ordinary.
So on the whole he gets in the plus column for me.
Somehow that experience never translated into not wanting to send more boys into the meat grinder when he was in the Senate.
As a senator, he was the best of a bad lot, which sounds like a compliment, but is pretty damming once you see his fellows. In any case I wouldn't expect a conservative senator to align his views with mine in any case.
As a POW, he had the chance to go home, leaving behind torture, abuse and deprivation, purely on his family ties, yet chose to stay anyways. That is the kind of test most people never have to face, much less pass. That takes guts beyond the ordinary.
So on the whole he gets in the plus column for me.
Somehow that experience never translated into not wanting to send more boys into the meat grinder when he was in the Senate.
Yeah in my book, his having been a POW makes him even worse. Like, what's his justification for being a warmonger when he's seen firsthand what kind of horrifying hell war is like?
As a senator, he was the best of a bad lot, which sounds like a compliment, but is pretty damming once you see his fellows. In any case I wouldn't expect a conservative senator to align his views with mine in any case.
As a POW, he had the chance to go home, leaving behind torture, abuse and deprivation, purely on his family ties, yet chose to stay anyways. That is the kind of test most people never have to face, much less pass. That takes guts beyond the ordinary.
So on the whole he gets in the plus column for me.
Somehow that experience never translated into not wanting to send more boys into the meat grinder when he was in the Senate.
Oh I am sorry, I must have given you the impression that my post, meant to commemorate a recently departed dead man and his accomplishments, in a quiet respectful manner, was actually an invitation to debate the pros and cons of the Just War theory of international relations.
I assure you I was merely making a post talking about my personal judgment on John Mccains life and career as a politician and a soldier. No further replies where expected, demanded or invited. So why you decided that my reply was the one far that required a snarky response is between you and your god(and potentially your shrink).
Please leave me out of your deliberations in the future. In this thread and other forms.
So It Goes on
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
As a senator, he was the best of a bad lot, which sounds like a compliment, but is pretty damming once you see his fellows. In any case I wouldn't expect a conservative senator to align his views with mine in any case.
As a POW, he had the chance to go home, leaving behind torture, abuse and deprivation, purely on his family ties, yet chose to stay anyways. That is the kind of test most people never have to face, much less pass. That takes guts beyond the ordinary.
So on the whole he gets in the plus column for me.
Somehow that experience never translated into not wanting to send more boys into the meat grinder when he was in the Senate.
Oh I am sorry, I must have given you the impression that my post, meant to commemorate a recently departed dead man and his accomplishments, in a quiet respectful manner, was actually an invitation to debate the pros and cons of the Just War theory of international relations.
I assure you I was merely making a post talking about my personal judgment on John Mccains life and career as a politician and a soldier. No further replies where expected, demanded or invited. So why you decided that my reply was the one far that required a snarky response is between you and your god(and potentially your shrink).
Please leave me out of your deliberations in the future. In this thread and other forms.
it's a discussion forum dude you don't need to accuse someone of needing therapy for disagreeing with you
The Pod Saves America guys summed up McCain best, I think.
Nine parts hero, one part troll.
No, wait, they got it backwards.
He was nine parts troll, one part hero.
He's a guy who was more than willing to pay the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of his nation and citizens, but subsequently spent his entire political career harming those same citizens.
People keep giving that example of "wasn't an Obama birther" as a point for the pro column in McCain's history
If the bare minimum to be considered good in American politics is "wasn't racist publically once" then maybe the bar is set a little low, here
Or maybe there doesn't have to be a single scale, with every action as a plus or minus, and we can be like "Here's some good things he did" and "Here's a ton of really shitty things he did" and that neither has to cancel or negate the other.
He can be a guy who did a ton of shitty and corrupt things and who's media image was a conjured fantasy of the DC insider bubble and who also did some admirable shit sometimes too.
John McCain is to me the embodiment of how much speaking respectably to the media and the public, and your most recent actions, glosses over your political voting history. The values he advocated for throughout his life are cornerstones of the problems of the modern world, and he will instead be remembered for his outspoken anti-Trump views (despite voting for 90% of the Trump policies) and his maverick reputation (despite voting for 90% of the GOP policies). In that sense he was the nega-Trump, a GOP politician who was for centrists and Democrats instead of the base, but a GOP politician through and through.
Yes, the man did a lot of shitty things, I will never dispute that. I don't see eye to eye with him on many things.
However, I just don't feel comfortable knocking a POW when not just a couple of months ago we were knocking Trump for doing the same thing. If it was bad when Trump shat on him, it's bad for us to shit on him even as he's dead.
John McCain is to me the embodiment of how much speaking respectably to the media and the public, and your most recent actions, glosses over your political voting history. The values he advocated for throughout his life are cornerstones of the problems of the modern world, and he will instead be remembered for his outspoken anti-Trump views (despite voting for 90% of the Trump policies) and his maverick reputation (despite voting for 90% of the GOP policies). In that sense he was the nega-Trump, a GOP politician who was for centrists and Democrats instead of the base, but a GOP politician through and through.
It's mostly about how much giving access to the press will allow you to get glowing coverage no matter what crazy shit you do.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
John McCain is to me the embodiment of how much speaking respectably to the media and the public, and your most recent actions, glosses over your political voting history. The values he advocated for throughout his life are cornerstones of the problems of the modern world, and he will instead be remembered for his outspoken anti-Trump views (despite voting for 90% of the Trump policies) and his maverick reputation (despite voting for 90% of the GOP policies). In that sense he was the nega-Trump, a GOP politician who was for centrists and Democrats instead of the base, but a GOP politician through and through.
It's mostly about how much giving access to the press will allow you to get glowing coverage no matter what crazy shit you do.
He is a war vet, a pow, and spent his life in service to this country. I disagreed with his politics, but the man deserves respect and honor.
If you stop at his military career sure. But you can't discuss his decades of service in government where he was an embarrassment and a failure without talking about all of the horrible things he did and how he stood by and enabled his party to do horrible things when he could have spoken out.
I'm not glad he's dead, I don't think anyone should have to go through dying of cancer but he sure as shit doesn't deserve my respect.
Yes, the man did a lot of shitty things, I will never dispute that. I don't see eye to eye with him on many things.
However, I just don't feel comfortable knocking a POW when not just a couple of months ago we were knocking Trump for doing the same thing. If it was bad when Trump shat on him, it's bad for us to shit on him even as he's dead.
POW s aren’t immune to criticism. We, well I, were knocking Trump down for saying POWs were natural losers for just getting caught by the enemy. If he’d simply called John McCain a loser for being such a hypocrite I doubt most would have complained. I certainly wouldn’t have.
I think we can have a balance of respecting the times he may have garnered it, honestly noting where he fell short of the reputation he had built around himself (undeserved as it may have been, which is subjective enough I'm not going to say it as an absolute and hopefully we can all refrain from the hot take/sick burns disagreeing with it), and soberly assess the a life that included being subjected to horrors and showing courage in the face of adversity.
I too enjoyed his appearances on The Daily Show, and was saddened when he failed to even live up to that barebones image. I lost most of what respect I may have had over the years, and yet was buoyed slightly by the thumbs down that saved the ACA (for a time, at least). Then he ended things on his terms but did so with a timing that may have a lasting impact on the USA and the world, and I'm sincerely doubting it'll be for the better.
So, like many people, the reality is conflicted. I think history will eventually paint him in a somewhat darker light, but as noted in this thread a few times, I'm also not going to begrudge those who admired him, friends, and family, their grief or focusing on the brighter points of his life.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
People keep giving that example of "wasn't an Obama birther" as a point for the pro column in McCain's history
If the bare minimum to be considered good in American politics is "wasn't racist publically once" then maybe the bar is set a little low, here
Or maybe there doesn't have to be a single scale, with every action as a plus or minus, and we can be like "Here's some good things he did" and "Here's a ton of really shitty things he did" and that neither has to cancel or negate the other.
He can be a guy who did a ton of shitty and corrupt things and who's media image was a conjured fantasy of the DC insider bubble and who also did some admirable shit sometimes too.
I mean, sure
But that point is the one I've seen come up the most as an example of his character, and I wanted to address it in particular
I didn't know the man personally, but feel on a public scale he did more harm than good, and what
little good he did was in service of creating more political capital with which to do further harm
I'm not happy he's dead, but prefer to reserve any depth of feeling for the people his actions actually hurt
I was 17 during the election but I definitely formed opinions that were later sadly diminished in my respect for him.
Still, he did some good things in his life. He just could have done more and it's sad that he didn't.
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AthenorBattle Hardened OptimistThe Skies of HiigaraRegistered Userregular
edited August 2018
It kinda didn't dawn on me how much this is affecting my family until just now.
My dad is 72. He is a vietnam vet, although he is fairly ashamed that he was in that war and doesn't like talking about it - he often thinks about the civilians he left behind. He has been getting more and more liberal in his old age, despite being (I think) registered Republican.
Anyways, this is hitting him hard... but I didn't fully realize it until my (deployed to the Navy) brother just called. Apparently my bro is having a hard time with this too, because as a military man, my bro highly respects McCain. And to be honest, that was one area it seemed he never wavered on, at least visibly - he was always troops first, knowing they were being thrown into a meat grinder for old men's wars. So my bro sees a lot of similarities between dad and McCain, and so he's kind of devistated.
I dunno. I've always respected McCain, even when this forum would beat him up. I know, deep down, that he wasn't a maverick in the last 20 years, and probably got seriously messed up by 9/11. But I respected him, to the point where I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that the reason he didn't retire was so that he could help flip the Senate if the Democrats needed it, to fight Trump. But he never lived to see that day.
I did not like his policies. I did not like what he did. I did not like how he went after people. But I respected him. and feel like I understood where he came from. Hopefully his death will remind the rank and file Republicans that country is more important than party. I doubt it... but I hope.
Posts
McCain was not the worst of Republicans, might have been among the best towards the end, as faint a praise that might be.
There are people i do think deserve cancer in this world, John McCain was not one of them, i hope his passing was as peaceful as it could be.
John McCain came home from Vietnam and joined the party responsible for all of this.
It says a lot to me.
That's about where I am. He was a pretty bad senator whose actions made America and the rest of the world a worse place, but at least he was better then the lot of Republicans we have now.
This article sums up my feelings pretty well.
Edit - Misread the post, not to imply net neutrality is good. Basically saying McCain was self-serving just as any other politician is.
My understanding was that he realized he needed someone who checked off some underrepresented boxes and picked Palin without having time to vet her. By the time it was clear she was a fucking loon, it was too late.
And I’ll grant McCain a few credits, because he did do the right thing a few times when it was very important, and he earned it. But before he stopped a woman short at a rally before she could call Obama a Muslim or some racial epithet, he spent months going along with the narrative that Obama was a dangerous radical and potentially a terrorist, and he never pushed back until Palin’s star was too brightly outshining his own.
The world is worse for the loss of McCain, but that says more about the sorry state of the world than the goodness of the man.
Let's not forget the 2008 ad that all but said that Obama was a pervert
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I think we've all done that at one point or another. It's a byproduct of being young
Just a note that he flipped to being Pro Torture during his Presidential run
Bare minimum in all things
As a POW, he had the chance to go home, leaving behind torture, abuse and deprivation, purely on his family ties, yet chose to stay anyways. That is the kind of test most people never have to face, much less pass. That takes guts beyond the ordinary.
So on the whole he gets in the plus column for me.
Somehow that experience never translated into not wanting to send more boys into the meat grinder when he was in the Senate.
Yeah in my book, his having been a POW makes him even worse. Like, what's his justification for being a warmonger when he's seen firsthand what kind of horrifying hell war is like?
Oh I am sorry, I must have given you the impression that my post, meant to commemorate a recently departed dead man and his accomplishments, in a quiet respectful manner, was actually an invitation to debate the pros and cons of the Just War theory of international relations.
I assure you I was merely making a post talking about my personal judgment on John Mccains life and career as a politician and a soldier. No further replies where expected, demanded or invited. So why you decided that my reply was the one far that required a snarky response is between you and your god(and potentially your shrink).
Please leave me out of your deliberations in the future. In this thread and other forms.
it's a discussion forum dude you don't need to accuse someone of needing therapy for disagreeing with you
If the bare minimum to be considered good in American politics is "wasn't racist publically once" then maybe the bar is set a little low, here
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Nine parts hero, one part troll.
No, wait, they got it backwards.
He was nine parts troll, one part hero.
He's a guy who was more than willing to pay the ultimate sacrifice on behalf of his nation and citizens, but subsequently spent his entire political career harming those same citizens.
Or maybe there doesn't have to be a single scale, with every action as a plus or minus, and we can be like "Here's some good things he did" and "Here's a ton of really shitty things he did" and that neither has to cancel or negate the other.
He can be a guy who did a ton of shitty and corrupt things and who's media image was a conjured fantasy of the DC insider bubble and who also did some admirable shit sometimes too.
Yes, the man did a lot of shitty things, I will never dispute that. I don't see eye to eye with him on many things.
However, I just don't feel comfortable knocking a POW when not just a couple of months ago we were knocking Trump for doing the same thing. If it was bad when Trump shat on him, it's bad for us to shit on him even as he's dead.
It's mostly about how much giving access to the press will allow you to get glowing coverage no matter what crazy shit you do.
That fucking tire swing did work.
If you stop at his military career sure. But you can't discuss his decades of service in government where he was an embarrassment and a failure without talking about all of the horrible things he did and how he stood by and enabled his party to do horrible things when he could have spoken out.
I'm not glad he's dead, I don't think anyone should have to go through dying of cancer but he sure as shit doesn't deserve my respect.
POW s aren’t immune to criticism. We, well I, were knocking Trump down for saying POWs were natural losers for just getting caught by the enemy. If he’d simply called John McCain a loser for being such a hypocrite I doubt most would have complained. I certainly wouldn’t have.
Ask me about him in 2000 and I'd have some different things to say, personally.
I too enjoyed his appearances on The Daily Show, and was saddened when he failed to even live up to that barebones image. I lost most of what respect I may have had over the years, and yet was buoyed slightly by the thumbs down that saved the ACA (for a time, at least). Then he ended things on his terms but did so with a timing that may have a lasting impact on the USA and the world, and I'm sincerely doubting it'll be for the better.
So, like many people, the reality is conflicted. I think history will eventually paint him in a somewhat darker light, but as noted in this thread a few times, I'm also not going to begrudge those who admired him, friends, and family, their grief or focusing on the brighter points of his life.
If the beltway media had its own flag, it'd be at half mast for the next six months.
Come Overwatch with meeeee
I mean, sure
But that point is the one I've seen come up the most as an example of his character, and I wanted to address it in particular
I didn't know the man personally, but feel on a public scale he did more harm than good, and what
little good he did was in service of creating more political capital with which to do further harm
I'm not happy he's dead, but prefer to reserve any depth of feeling for the people his actions actually hurt
3DS Friend Code: 0216-0898-6512
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I was also 15 in 2000, but yes.
I may have kept saying the same thing until Palin, to be honest.
Still, he did some good things in his life. He just could have done more and it's sad that he didn't.
My dad is 72. He is a vietnam vet, although he is fairly ashamed that he was in that war and doesn't like talking about it - he often thinks about the civilians he left behind. He has been getting more and more liberal in his old age, despite being (I think) registered Republican.
Anyways, this is hitting him hard... but I didn't fully realize it until my (deployed to the Navy) brother just called. Apparently my bro is having a hard time with this too, because as a military man, my bro highly respects McCain. And to be honest, that was one area it seemed he never wavered on, at least visibly - he was always troops first, knowing they were being thrown into a meat grinder for old men's wars. So my bro sees a lot of similarities between dad and McCain, and so he's kind of devistated.
I dunno. I've always respected McCain, even when this forum would beat him up. I know, deep down, that he wasn't a maverick in the last 20 years, and probably got seriously messed up by 9/11. But I respected him, to the point where I'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt that the reason he didn't retire was so that he could help flip the Senate if the Democrats needed it, to fight Trump. But he never lived to see that day.
I did not like his policies. I did not like what he did. I did not like how he went after people. But I respected him. and feel like I understood where he came from. Hopefully his death will remind the rank and file Republicans that country is more important than party. I doubt it... but I hope.