If this is the episode I'm thinking of, it was pretty f-ing creepy in retrospect.
It's...getting worse.
Is this Melora or Sarina? Sarina's was pretty creepy but intentionally so, but I don't remember Melora's being so...
His pushing treatment on her wasn't great but her disability saved everyone in the end so, uhhh
Overall not sure the ep was well done on the whole
For me, it was a combination of... being her doctor, pushing her to do the treatment, and dating her all at the same time. It was a nexus of inappropriateness, all within, like, 2 days of meeting her or something.
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
+10
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
+3
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
Because it would mean the Prophets fucked up the time thing again and dumped Sisko several hundred years in the past, and now he's his own great-great*-grandfather and everything is basically ruined.
At least he all those Captain's Logs he's made over the years came in useful
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
Because it would mean the Prophets fucked up the time thing again and dumped Sisko several hundred years in the past, and now he's his own great-great*-grandfather and everything is basically ruined.
...honestly that would have been a better hyper-nerdlinger explanation for the ST09 continuity than what we got.
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
it's a weird diegetic disconnect in the same way a lot of "It was all a dream" stories were.
It's like the Tommy Westphall hypothesis, except canonized.
I loved Far Beyond the Stars so part of me is all in on that proposed twist ending. But part of me feels like it would've felt forced and that they would have had to plan for that ending from the beginning for it to really work.
If you wrote it as an interpretation of what was going on with Sisko's apotheosis with the prophets in the wormhole then it makes sense to me.
That is how the prophets see the universe essentially. Far Beyond the Stars is the prophets showing Sisko what its like to be outside linear time, while still acting within that timeline, through an experience of being both the author and the subject.
Sisko is already the center of a really weird timeloop, because from the Prophets' perspective, he was the first being from the timeline they ever met, but from Sisko's perspective the Prophets had been interfering with Bajor for centuries. Sisko as Benny Russell at the end of DS9 is him editing the timeline so that everything fits.
Jephery on
}
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
Because then they'd be going for the ending of the typical 'the protagonist is in an asylum and the entire series is their delusion' episode, as used in Buffy, Stargate, Smallville, and probably a bunch of shows I've never watched. It always gets presented as someone in the 'delusion' trying to gaslight them, but a lot of the time they can't help but finish with one shot of the 'real' world saying "We've lost them again", which then turns the series (and in Treks case, the entire franchise) into Just A Dream.
Doing that to one episode is annoying, but I heard Seven Days actually ended with that, which killed any desire to keep watching that show.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
0
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
i think in a sense, yeah
like
obviously it’s not real real and there’s no illusion that it is, but, if it had turned out to all be some pulp sci fi written in the 40s or whatever it would not only have not made any sense in the context of the entire franchise but it would have eliminated a lot of the meaningful impact the events of the show had on the setting and on characters that existed outside DS9 itself
it would have been a real dumb way to end the series just to be cute
The actual ending is bad enough already (and was even worse in the original draft)
+2
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i thought the ending was a bit unsatisfying but i didn’t think it was bad in the context of the show
i mean i do think the last season’s main story was a bit of a clunker in general and the supernatural elements were silly but i thought the ending at least made sense with where they were going
i thought the ending was a bit unsatisfying but i didn’t think it was bad in the context of the show
i mean i do think the last season’s main story was a bit of a clunker in general and the supernatural elements were silly but i thought the ending at least made sense with where they were going
Yeah, I dunno, I thought the ending ending was perfect. It was a really nice blend of things moving on but also things not changing.
Well, except breaking up O'Brien and Bashir. That was some hot fucking garbage.
+5
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i never really dug the whole prophets are real beings aspect of the story/Sisko is space jesus in the first place and thought it was kind of hokey, but accepting that it was a part of the story, i think the ending was what it should have been
the only bad thing in the ending is that they had Sisko stuck away from his son and pregnant wife with the prophets for no clear reason, thus ending his arc by treading the tired trope of the absent african-american father
should've skipped ahead a few months and had him return, then fade to black and end there
+8
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i think reading that as absent african-american father is a bit much
I guess I just don't see any way in which an ending where they just casually trap their lead character in some weird wormhole temple while his new wife is pregnant is in any way good
just doesn't work for me in any way whatsoever
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i don’t necessarily think it was a good ending but it makes sense that he is now a true believer and this is his mission and he has to make sacrifices to see it through
and given the nature of time to the prophets he could very well go through whatever they need him for and come back moments later or whatever, which is kind of implied, but i think being made explicit would have completely deflated the gravity of the choice from sisko’s perspective
i just entirely disagree with the assessment that this is an absentee father trope
On a connected topic, I feel moved to link this exceptional article that goes over just how great Ben and Jake's relationship is again
+2
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
The ending was weird because it had the whole 'Sisko has gone away but might return' thing, but Sisko is in the wormhole. Just fly a ship out there, park in the middle of it and honk the horn until he stops by for a chat.
There's also the thing that he's outside linear time and all that, so the fact he didn't use all that time travel mojo to pop back onto DS9 five minutes after he left is also weird.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
To be honest though, the fact that Brooks himself found the ending so profoundly awful that he demanded they change even that one line to make it seem better is pretty damning. I can't imagine he was still completely find with it.
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
I dunno, I kinda liked him calling them out on being willing to be seen as gods but not do anything to help Bajor.
It was the elephant in the room, but instead of ignoring it or shooing the elephant out, Sisko got the elephant to trample the bad guys.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
+4
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
I dunno, I kinda liked him calling them out on being willing to be seen as gods but not do anything to help Bajor.
It was the elephant in the room, but instead of ignoring it or shooing the elephant out, Sisko got the elephant to trample the bad guys.
at the same point it's also a literal deus ex machina though
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Is this Melora or Sarina? Sarina's was pretty creepy but intentionally so, but I don't remember Melora's being so...
His pushing treatment on her wasn't great but her disability saved everyone in the end so, uhhh
Overall not sure the ep was well done on the whole
I'm almost to the end of the ep and I'm precringing at the upcoming reveal
For me, it was a combination of... being her doctor, pushing her to do the treatment, and dating her all at the same time. It was a nexus of inappropriateness, all within, like, 2 days of meeting her or something.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
i feel like i make this literal post about every 6 months in this thread lol
I'm not a fan of that episode but on the other hand we do get the Klingon Chef scene.....I'm torn
Because then it wouldn't be real?
Because it would mean the Prophets fucked up the time thing again and dumped Sisko several hundred years in the past, and now he's his own great-great*-grandfather and everything is basically ruined.
At least he all those Captain's Logs he's made over the years came in useful
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
...honestly that would have been a better hyper-nerdlinger explanation for the ST09 continuity than what we got.
Is this all in his head
it's a weird diegetic disconnect in the same way a lot of "It was all a dream" stories were.
It's like the Tommy Westphall hypothesis, except canonized.
That is how the prophets see the universe essentially. Far Beyond the Stars is the prophets showing Sisko what its like to be outside linear time, while still acting within that timeline, through an experience of being both the author and the subject.
Sisko is already the center of a really weird timeloop, because from the Prophets' perspective, he was the first being from the timeline they ever met, but from Sisko's perspective the Prophets had been interfering with Bajor for centuries. Sisko as Benny Russell at the end of DS9 is him editing the timeline so that everything fits.
"Orkses never lose a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fightin so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!".
Because then they'd be going for the ending of the typical 'the protagonist is in an asylum and the entire series is their delusion' episode, as used in Buffy, Stargate, Smallville, and probably a bunch of shows I've never watched. It always gets presented as someone in the 'delusion' trying to gaslight them, but a lot of the time they can't help but finish with one shot of the 'real' world saying "We've lost them again", which then turns the series (and in Treks case, the entire franchise) into Just A Dream.
Doing that to one episode is annoying, but I heard Seven Days actually ended with that, which killed any desire to keep watching that show.
i think in a sense, yeah
like
obviously it’s not real real and there’s no illusion that it is, but, if it had turned out to all be some pulp sci fi written in the 40s or whatever it would not only have not made any sense in the context of the entire franchise but it would have eliminated a lot of the meaningful impact the events of the show had on the setting and on characters that existed outside DS9 itself
it would have been a real dumb way to end the series just to be cute
i mean i do think the last season’s main story was a bit of a clunker in general and the supernatural elements were silly but i thought the ending at least made sense with where they were going
Yeah, I dunno, I thought the ending ending was perfect. It was a really nice blend of things moving on but also things not changing.
Well, except breaking up O'Brien and Bashir. That was some hot fucking garbage.
should've skipped ahead a few months and had him return, then fade to black and end there
but for some murky reason the prophets chose to take him away from his family at a critical time, and the writers thought that'd be a great way to end
nah, no thanks, that's bullshit
just doesn't work for me in any way whatsoever
and given the nature of time to the prophets he could very well go through whatever they need him for and come back moments later or whatever, which is kind of implied, but i think being made explicit would have completely deflated the gravity of the choice from sisko’s perspective
i just entirely disagree with the assessment that this is an absentee father trope
i mean i do think the “he’ll be back” element changes the context entirely
he’s not running off with two fingers in the air like “screw you, losers!”
he’s doing what he thinks is right and is his calling, knowing that he’ll return when his work is complete
it makes the meaning of the choice entirely different
it’s more like a deployment than an abandonment
sorry i can’t help myself sometimes
There's also the thing that he's outside linear time and all that, so the fact he didn't use all that time travel mojo to pop back onto DS9 five minutes after he left is also weird.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
It was the elephant in the room, but instead of ignoring it or shooing the elephant out, Sisko got the elephant to trample the bad guys.
at the same point it's also a literal deus ex machina though
Like, usually a deus ex machina comes out of nowhere to solve everything, these guys have been around since the first episode.