well enterprise’s ending robbed the show of any ability to stand on its own as a separate installation and made it all basically explicitly inferior in the shadow of TNG
which i mean
fair
but it’s just rude to say it out loud
I mean, in fairness, if they were all holograms it'd explain why they were all such incomplete people most of the time.
Also, apropos of nothing, Jolene Blalock fidgets a lot and it makes her seem weirdly un-Vulcan to me, but that's probably something idiosyncratic to me.
Enterprise's finale wasn't just awful, it was cruel.
"Hey, your series finale's actually a tie-on episode to a show that finished eleven years ago. Enjoy being props for a B-plot that nobody is even remotely invested in and not actually getting anything of a personal ending for your own show's cast!"
I didn't even like the show that much and was still pissed that they'd do that to the cast.
Zibblsnrt on
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Enterprise's finale wasn't just awful, it was cruel.
"Hey, your series finale's actually a tie-on episode to a show that finished eleven years ago. Enjoy being props for a B-plot that nobody is even remotely invested in and not actually getting anything of a personal ending for your own show's cast!"
I didn't even like the show that much and was still pissed that they'd do that to the cast.
Man, it was cruel to do to Jonathan Frakes, too. "Just pretend you look as young as you did 16 years ago, it'll be fine." AND it retroactively makes the original TNG episode it's based on worse. It was a huge fuck you to the entire franchise.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
We're rewatching the entirety of TNG here, and S7 really feels like they just threw open the door to the writers' room and asked for all the stuff in the "too weird to be a real episode" folder, knowing that it would be the last season.
I wonder if someone would have to draft a memo stating that telepathic/empathic races are officially barred from working in a certain area of the Enterprise-D because it's literally haunted and will drive you to suicide.
GNU Terry Pratchett
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Probably involuntary due to how goddamn uncomfortable that uniform must have been.
I feel really bad for Jolene Blalock
Like, she's a self-declared trekkie and big TOS fan, she begged them to do more with her character and was saying things like "in the script I'm eating with my hands! Vulcans don't do that!" And yet they just messed around and wrote t'pol really shoddily. Plus she thought the finale was appalling and openly stated it... Basically it sucks that Enterprise ground the joy out of the people making it as much as it did us watching it.
Berman and Braga thinking they were doing us a favor is something I still ponder. 20 years of making Star Trek and they still didn't get it, it's amazing
Probably involuntary due to how goddamn uncomfortable that uniform must have been.
I feel really bad for Jolene Blalock
Like, she's a self-declared trekkie and big TOS fan, she begged them to do more with her character and was saying things like "in the script I'm eating with my hands! Vulcans don't do that!" And yet they just messed around and wrote t'pol really shoddily. Plus she thought the finale was appalling and openly stated it... Basically it sucks that Enterprise ground the joy out of the people making it as much as it did us watching it.
Enterprise treated all it's actors badly. Good or bad, happy or not, they all got fucked.
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MsAnthropyThe Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the RhythmThe City of FlowersRegistered Userregular
We're rewatching the entirety of TNG here, and S7 really feels like they just threw open the door to the writers' room and asked for all the stuff in the "too weird to be a real episode" folder, knowing that it would be the last season.
I wonder if someone would have to draft a memo stating that telepathic/empathic races are officially barred from working in a certain area of the Enterprise-D because it's literally haunted and will drive you to suicide.
Probably involuntary due to how goddamn uncomfortable that uniform must have been.
I feel really bad for Jolene Blalock
Like, she's a self-declared trekkie and big TOS fan, she begged them to do more with her character and was saying things like "in the script I'm eating with my hands! Vulcans don't do that!" And yet they just messed around and wrote t'pol really shoddily. Plus she thought the finale was appalling and openly stated it... Basically it sucks that Enterprise ground the joy out of the people making it as much as it did us watching it.
Enterprise treated all it's actors badly. Good or bad, happy or not, they all got fucked.
Probably involuntary due to how goddamn uncomfortable that uniform must have been.
I feel really bad for Jolene Blalock
Like, she's a self-declared trekkie and big TOS fan, she begged them to do more with her character and was saying things like "in the script I'm eating with my hands! Vulcans don't do that!" And yet they just messed around and wrote t'pol really shoddily. Plus she thought the finale was appalling and openly stated it... Basically it sucks that Enterprise ground the joy out of the people making it as much as it did us watching it.
Enterprise treated all it's actors badly. Good or bad, happy or not, they all got fucked.
Yeah, I really feel like these two threads are connected. Like, the reason DS9 worked while both Voyager and Enterprise floundered seems to boil down to which group of writers were actually interested in leaning into their respective shows central pitch. The former fully bought into increased serialization and investigating how Starfleet characters grapple with their ideals when thrown to the edge of the Federation. The latter two mostly just recycled old ideas that were better done on TNG. Which is sad because I think there were examples—Year of Hell and Equinox on Voyager, a decent number of episodes of season 4 Enterprise (which I would not exactly classify as good, but giving a glimpse of something that could have still become good)—that showed what both of them could have become if the producers had really believed in the concepts they hemselves had come up with.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Especially sad since the elevator pitches for both shows are obvious and solid, the writers just didn't have the guts to follow through on them. Not that Enterprises' core concept of how the Federation was formed required any deep soul searching or anything.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Especially sad since the elevator pitches for both shows are obvious and solid, the writers just didn't have the guts to follow through on them. Not that Enterprises' core concept of how the Federation was formed required any deep soul searching or anything.
voyager a lot of the time felt to me like everyone was just tired of doing star trek and running on inertia
there are definitely moments where there’s some shine in the dirt but it was mostly just retreads of worn paths
enterprise is like you can see what they meant to do and they just be kept missing the mark
humans are bold and confident and value their individuality and are represented by a captain who is meant to embody that as we take our first steps into the final frontier but ends up just being a petulant asshole
Chanus on
Allegedly a voice of reason.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
And a ship's doctor who is willing to doom a sentient species to extinction because of evolution. Because that's how you build an interstellar alliance.
I suspect that Voyager suffered from some burnout problems, but the core idea was a good one. The writers were just phoning it in though. You have an entire new quadrant of the galaxy to populate and the first thing that you come up with are the Kazon.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I feel the Kazon were fine as a more numerous, but technologically inferior antagonist. The writers just had them overstay their welcome by a season or so.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Two problems with the Kazon:
1) They were genuinely horrible people. Violent, sexist, expansionist, untrustworthy, etc. Like TNG season one Ferengi but without any of the effort put into their design (crescent moon ships, energy whips, big ears).
2) They weren't actually that technologically inferior. Lower tech than Voyager, but close enough that they were a legitimate threat. It's not like the TNG episode where the crew got mojoed into attacking a planet that had lasers on its ships.
So what ended up happening was that the Kazon were so awful that cutting a deal with them never seemed like a realistic possibility, and they were enough of a threat that shooting followed by running seemed like the only possible interaction. If they had dialed things in the other direction, they could have had the Kazon come off as super low tech, but harmless, so Voyager feels comfortable giving them a couple nuggets of things in return for foodstuffs or whatever. Then the season builds up to Voyager discovering that the Kazon have managed to pick up more info from Voyager and have started using it to boot head. This leads to the finale where Voyager attempts to balance the scales (or doesn't, because that's how you get gangster planets) and something something ends up having to detour off the direct path home in order to avoid the Kazon held space.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I'm always taken by surprise at how much of DS9's plot and characters were established early on. For some reason I think of Garak as a character that was added midway through, but he was there as of the 3rd episode. The Jem'Hadar are near the end of just season 2, and that basically kicks off what is the overall arcing conflict of the entire series.
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
I'm always taken by surprise at how much of DS9's plot and characters were established early on. For some reason I think of Garak as a character that was added midway through, but he was there as of the 3rd episode. The Jem'Hadar are near the end of just season 2, and that basically kicks off what is the overall arcing conflict of the entire series.
I feel like the writing team had a decent idea for the Kazon at the start but fell victim for the o'l give the boss the real option and an obvious bad choice so that the boss feels like he's making a real decision, but as always the boss goes with the "They're like Klingons but dumber and with bad hair" choice.
I'm always taken by surprise at how much of DS9's plot and characters were established early on. For some reason I think of Garak as a character that was added midway through, but he was there as of the 3rd episode. The Jem'Hadar are near the end of just season 2, and that basically kicks off what is the overall arcing conflict of the entire series.
The Dominion is first mentioned early in S2 even.
In a Ferengi episode, of all things. Which was a clever way of doing it, IMO. The Dominion wanted to (and succeeded in) staying off the Federation's radar and spying on them without being seen for two years, but the Ferengi's expanding trade ventures into the Gamma Quadrant hit the supply chain of the Dominion and revealed them.
Honestly the best way to introduce a major villain is to slowly drop in mention of them over time until the anticipation of finding out exactly what they're like has build up enough
which is exactly what they did with the Dominion and I loved that
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
i think in a sense, yeah
like
obviously it’s not real real and there’s no illusion that it is, but, if it had turned out to all be some pulp sci fi written in the 40s or whatever it would not only have not made any sense in the context of the entire franchise but it would have eliminated a lot of the meaningful impact the events of the show had on the setting and on characters that existed outside DS9 itself
it would have been a real dumb way to end the series just to be cute
I don't feel that way at all. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't make anything we've seen different, not unless someone then, later, came along and decided to play with the idea that the trek world is a fake world instead of a real one, like Picard bursts out of Benny's word processor or something. Which I could understand a fan objecting to because then it changes the genre of the story from science fiction to...some kind of magical realism literary fantasy, like a Kurt Vonnegut novel. But if someone wanted to do that story, they always could have! They could have had Captain Kirk burst out of the screen and go around trying to pick up chicks with Gene Roddenberry or whatever. They didn't.
And I don't think doing it would be cute; that seems unnecessarily reductive to me. It would be a poetic grace note reaffirming what Trek has always been: the work of people here and now, in the real world we live in, projecting all their hopes for a better world than this one into this fictional work of art. A reminder that what makes Star Trek great isn't spaceships or explosions but something else, something more ineffable.
Someone can have a crushingly literal-minded reading of that if they want, but...why
But it means that all of star trek is a dreaming writer from the 50s work, and that means he also wrote the lines "a particularly erotic entry in my grandmother's journal" and "NO TREATY, NO VACCINE, AND NO TASHA YAR!"
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
i think in a sense, yeah
like
obviously it’s not real real and there’s no illusion that it is, but, if it had turned out to all be some pulp sci fi written in the 40s or whatever it would not only have not made any sense in the context of the entire franchise but it would have eliminated a lot of the meaningful impact the events of the show had on the setting and on characters that existed outside DS9 itself
it would have been a real dumb way to end the series just to be cute
I don't feel that way at all. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't make anything we've seen different, not unless someone then, later, came along and decided to play with the idea that the trek world is a fake world instead of a real one, like Picard bursts out of Benny's word processor or something. Which I could understand a fan objecting to because then it changes the genre of the story from science fiction to...some kind of magical realism literary fantasy, like a Kurt Vonnegut novel. But if someone wanted to do that story, they always could have! They could have had Captain Kirk burst out of the screen and go around trying to pick up chicks with Gene Roddenberry or whatever. They didn't.
And I don't think doing it would be cute; that seems unnecessarily reductive to me. It would be a poetic grace note reaffirming what Trek has always been: the work of people here and now, in the real world we live in, projecting all their hopes for a better world than this one into this fictional work of art. A reminder that what makes Star Trek great isn't spaceships or explosions but something else, something more ineffable.
Someone can have a crushingly literal-minded reading of that if they want, but...why
But it means that all of star trek is a dreaming writer from the 50s work, and that means he also wrote the lines "a particularly erotic entry in my grandmother's journal" and "NO TREATY, NO VACCINE, AND NO TASHA YAR!"
But it means that all of star trek is a dreaming writer from the 50s work, and that means he also wrote the lines "a particularly erotic entry in my grandmother's journal" and "NO TREATY, NO VACCINE, AND NO TASHA YAR!"
Dammit, I'd almost successfully forgotten that episode existed.
I'm always taken by surprise at how much of DS9's plot and characters were established early on. For some reason I think of Garak as a character that was added midway through, but he was there as of the 3rd episode. The Jem'Hadar are near the end of just season 2, and that basically kicks off what is the overall arcing conflict of the entire series.
The Dominion is first mentioned early in S2 even.
In the Tula Berry contract negotiations with the Harlequin race.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
i think in a sense, yeah
like
obviously it’s not real real and there’s no illusion that it is, but, if it had turned out to all be some pulp sci fi written in the 40s or whatever it would not only have not made any sense in the context of the entire franchise but it would have eliminated a lot of the meaningful impact the events of the show had on the setting and on characters that existed outside DS9 itself
it would have been a real dumb way to end the series just to be cute
I don't feel that way at all. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't make anything we've seen different, not unless someone then, later, came along and decided to play with the idea that the trek world is a fake world instead of a real one, like Picard bursts out of Benny's word processor or something. Which I could understand a fan objecting to because then it changes the genre of the story from science fiction to...some kind of magical realism literary fantasy, like a Kurt Vonnegut novel. But if someone wanted to do that story, they always could have! They could have had Captain Kirk burst out of the screen and go around trying to pick up chicks with Gene Roddenberry or whatever. They didn't.
And I don't think doing it would be cute; that seems unnecessarily reductive to me. It would be a poetic grace note reaffirming what Trek has always been: the work of people here and now, in the real world we live in, projecting all their hopes for a better world than this one into this fictional work of art. A reminder that what makes Star Trek great isn't spaceships or explosions but something else, something more ineffable.
Someone can have a crushingly literal-minded reading of that if they want, but...why
But it means that all of star trek is a dreaming writer from the 50s work, and that means he also wrote the lines "a particularly erotic entry in my grandmother's journal" and "NO TREATY, NO VACCINE, AND NO TASHA YAR!"
I think Season 1's Captive Pursuit had aliens that were the proto designs for the Dominion. The show runners probably didn't like the look and re-worked them but you can see a lot of early dominion design elements in them. https://youtu.be/kgZnyG8iEPI
Also, remember how the Vorta could shoot psychic hadokens in their first appearance? Wassupwidat?
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
I think Season 1's Captive Pursuit had aliens that were the proto designs for the Dominion. The show runners probably didn't like the look and re-worked them but you can see a lot of early dominion design elements in them. https://youtu.be/kgZnyG8iEPI
Also, remember how the Vorta could shoot psychic hadokens in their first appearance? Wassupwidat?
That episode was simultaneously A Bad Idea and way better than it should've been, so letting that thread drop was probably a good call.
I think Season 1's Captive Pursuit had aliens that were the proto designs for the Dominion. The show runners probably didn't like the look and re-worked them but you can see a lot of early dominion design elements in them. https://youtu.be/kgZnyG8iEPI
Also, remember how the Vorta could shoot psychic hadokens in their first appearance? Wassupwidat?
That was just one Vorta, who was presumably genetically-engineered to do that because it was useful for her mission. It's not a useful trait for a general-purpose diplomat/bureaucrat.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
I think Season 1's Captive Pursuit had aliens that were the proto designs for the Dominion. The show runners probably didn't like the look and re-worked them but you can see a lot of early dominion design elements in them. https://youtu.be/kgZnyG8iEPI
Also, remember how the Vorta could shoot psychic hadokens in their first appearance? Wassupwidat?
That was just one Vorta, who was presumably genetically-engineered to do that because it was useful for her mission. It's not a useful trait for a general-purpose diplomat/bureaucrat.
or is it
Allegedly a voice of reason.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Sure it is. Diplomats generally go unarmed (though not without guards). If the guards are taken out an apparently unarmed diplomat is not helpless if she can kill you with her brain.
Sure it is. Diplomats generally go unarmed (though not without guards). If the guards are taken out an apparently unarmed diplomat is not helpless if she can kill you with her brain.
That trick would only work once, then everyone would know your apparently-unarmed diplomats are not actually unarmed.
Also, for a race with cloning immortality, it's probably easier to lose and replace diplomats than to mount rescue missions to retrieve a lone surviving Rambo-diplomat.
Sure it is. Diplomats generally go unarmed (though not without guards). If the guards are taken out an apparently unarmed diplomat is not helpless if she can kill you with her brain.
That trick would only work once, then everyone would know your apparently-unarmed diplomats are not actually unarmed.
Also, for a race with cloning immortality, it's probably easier to lose and replace diplomats than to mount rescue missions to retrieve a lone surviving Rambo-diplomat.
Posts
I mean, in fairness, if they were all holograms it'd explain why they were all such incomplete people most of the time.
Also, apropos of nothing, Jolene Blalock fidgets a lot and it makes her seem weirdly un-Vulcan to me, but that's probably something idiosyncratic to me.
"Hey, your series finale's actually a tie-on episode to a show that finished eleven years ago. Enjoy being props for a B-plot that nobody is even remotely invested in and not actually getting anything of a personal ending for your own show's cast!"
I didn't even like the show that much and was still pissed that they'd do that to the cast.
Man, it was cruel to do to Jonathan Frakes, too. "Just pretend you look as young as you did 16 years ago, it'll be fine." AND it retroactively makes the original TNG episode it's based on worse. It was a huge fuck you to the entire franchise.
I wonder if someone would have to draft a memo stating that telepathic/empathic races are officially barred from working in a certain area of the Enterprise-D because it's literally haunted and will drive you to suicide.
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I feel really bad for Jolene Blalock
Like, she's a self-declared trekkie and big TOS fan, she begged them to do more with her character and was saying things like "in the script I'm eating with my hands! Vulcans don't do that!" And yet they just messed around and wrote t'pol really shoddily. Plus she thought the finale was appalling and openly stated it... Basically it sucks that Enterprise ground the joy out of the people making it as much as it did us watching it.
Enterprise treated all it's actors badly. Good or bad, happy or not, they all got fucked.
Yeah, I really feel like these two threads are connected. Like, the reason DS9 worked while both Voyager and Enterprise floundered seems to boil down to which group of writers were actually interested in leaning into their respective shows central pitch. The former fully bought into increased serialization and investigating how Starfleet characters grapple with their ideals when thrown to the edge of the Federation. The latter two mostly just recycled old ideas that were better done on TNG. Which is sad because I think there were examples—Year of Hell and Equinox on Voyager, a decent number of episodes of season 4 Enterprise (which I would not exactly classify as good, but giving a glimpse of something that could have still become good)—that showed what both of them could have become if the producers had really believed in the concepts they hemselves had come up with.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
voyager a lot of the time felt to me like everyone was just tired of doing star trek and running on inertia
there are definitely moments where there’s some shine in the dirt but it was mostly just retreads of worn paths
enterprise is like you can see what they meant to do and they just be kept missing the mark
humans are bold and confident and value their individuality and are represented by a captain who is meant to embody that as we take our first steps into the final frontier but ends up just being a petulant asshole
I suspect that Voyager suffered from some burnout problems, but the core idea was a good one. The writers were just phoning it in though. You have an entire new quadrant of the galaxy to populate and the first thing that you come up with are the Kazon.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
1) They were genuinely horrible people. Violent, sexist, expansionist, untrustworthy, etc. Like TNG season one Ferengi but without any of the effort put into their design (crescent moon ships, energy whips, big ears).
2) They weren't actually that technologically inferior. Lower tech than Voyager, but close enough that they were a legitimate threat. It's not like the TNG episode where the crew got mojoed into attacking a planet that had lasers on its ships.
So what ended up happening was that the Kazon were so awful that cutting a deal with them never seemed like a realistic possibility, and they were enough of a threat that shooting followed by running seemed like the only possible interaction. If they had dialed things in the other direction, they could have had the Kazon come off as super low tech, but harmless, so Voyager feels comfortable giving them a couple nuggets of things in return for foodstuffs or whatever. Then the season builds up to Voyager discovering that the Kazon have managed to pick up more info from Voyager and have started using it to boot head. This leads to the finale where Voyager attempts to balance the scales (or doesn't, because that's how you get gangster planets) and something something ends up having to detour off the direct path home in order to avoid the Kazon held space.
The Dominion is first mentioned early in S2 even.
In a Ferengi episode, of all things. Which was a clever way of doing it, IMO. The Dominion wanted to (and succeeded in) staying off the Federation's radar and spying on them without being seen for two years, but the Ferengi's expanding trade ventures into the Gamma Quadrant hit the supply chain of the Dominion and revealed them.
which is exactly what they did with the Dominion and I loved that
But it means that all of star trek is a dreaming writer from the 50s work, and that means he also wrote the lines "a particularly erotic entry in my grandmother's journal" and "NO TREATY, NO VACCINE, AND NO TASHA YAR!"
That just makes him even more of a legend!
Dammit, I'd almost successfully forgotten that episode existed.
In the Tula Berry contract negotiations with the Harlequin race.
ok maybe i'm convinced
Also, remember how the Vorta could shoot psychic hadokens in their first appearance? Wassupwidat?
That episode was simultaneously A Bad Idea and way better than it should've been, so letting that thread drop was probably a good call.
That was just one Vorta, who was presumably genetically-engineered to do that because it was useful for her mission. It's not a useful trait for a general-purpose diplomat/bureaucrat.
or is it
That trick would only work once, then everyone would know your apparently-unarmed diplomats are not actually unarmed.
Also, for a race with cloning immortality, it's probably easier to lose and replace diplomats than to mount rescue missions to retrieve a lone surviving Rambo-diplomat.
I mean, it's no Gadouken Diplomacy, but it does the job.
maybe it only needs to work once
just an FYI
also fukin Prince Humperdink is in this ep
As a less-than-reputable El Aurian, too (Guinan's species) iirc!
Ooh that did not really come up.
Anyway on to a couple episodes later- these space elves tryna blame OBrien for some deaths that were in fact murders?
get outta here
yall OBrien is a real good character FYI