I dunno, I kinda liked him calling them out on being willing to be seen as gods but not do anything to help Bajor.
It was the elephant in the room, but instead of ignoring it or shooing the elephant out, Sisko got the elephant to trample the bad guys.
That goes back to my point - this is all Sisko's human-limited and linear-time interpretation of the Prophet's actions. The fact the show indicates it's correct takes the Prophets down from "aliens impossibly far removed from our understanding" to "regular guys with understandable and manipulable motivations".
The Prophets shouldn't have been able to understand what it means to be "seen as gods" and their idea of "helping Bajor" shouldn't be relatable to immediate material needs and strategic military assistance.
They didn't need to have Sisko "leave" at all. The aliens that were his mothers people exist outside of linear time. He literally could have just shown up at the station the next instant and when asked "I thought you were going to be with the prophets?" by Kira he could have said "I did, for ages."
When you write that one of the aliens decided to take human form and give birth to him after meeting him and they can do that because of how they exist outside of time then you can't honestly justify someone like Sisko leaving his family when he can accomplish both things at once.
+10
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
They didn't need to have Sisko "leave" at all. The aliens that were his mothers people exist outside of linear time. He literally could have just shown up at the station the next instant and when asked "I thought you were going to be with the prophets?" by Kira he could have said "I did, for ages."
When you write that one of the aliens decided to take human form and give birth to him after meeting him and they can do that because of how they exist outside of time then you can't honestly justify someone like Sisko leaving his family when he can accomplish both things at once.
i think that leaving something we know is basically what is going to happen, but is not explicitly done, lets us feel the gravity of sisko's decision to follow his calling
"guess what nerds, i already did" would have just made the whole thing feel trite
Then that's the fault of how they wrote the character of Sisko and the nature of the wormhole aliens because when Ben returned he would absolutely return at the point he left.
When you write that one of the aliens decided to take human form and give birth to him after meeting him and they can do that because of how they exist outside of time then you can't honestly justify someone like Sisko leaving his family when he can accomplish both things at once.
They didn't do that, they did something way worse. They took over a human to get him to be born, and there's no evidence that she was a consensual partner in this.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
+3
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
They didn't need to have Sisko "leave" at all. The aliens that were his mothers people exist outside of linear time. He literally could have just shown up at the station the next instant and when asked "I thought you were going to be with the prophets?" by Kira he could have said "I did, for ages."
When you write that one of the aliens decided to take human form and give birth to him after meeting him and they can do that because of how they exist outside of time then you can't honestly justify someone like Sisko leaving his family when he can accomplish both things at once.
i think that leaving something we know is basically what is going to happen, but is not explicitly done, lets us feel the gravity of sisko's decision to follow his calling
"guess what nerds, i already did" would have just made the whole thing feel trite
Just slap some grey into his beard (grey hair being the universal shorthand for having a stressful experience no matter how much time has passed) and have him do some of that acting thing to convey that going with the prophets had a cost. Just make it clear that the Sisko that comes back is not the Sisko who left (use the baseball for something sad) and you're good to go.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
or, I dunno, just not have him whisked away by the prophets for ages because the Sisko that we've come to know would never put hanging out with some weird aliens over being with his family
Jake is his rock and foundation, and Cassady builds upon that further, there's no way in hell he'd give up being with them and if the prophets were to keep him away against his will then they're outright assholes
0
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
They didn't need to have Sisko "leave" at all. The aliens that were his mothers people exist outside of linear time. He literally could have just shown up at the station the next instant and when asked "I thought you were going to be with the prophets?" by Kira he could have said "I did, for ages."
When you write that one of the aliens decided to take human form and give birth to him after meeting him and they can do that because of how they exist outside of time then you can't honestly justify someone like Sisko leaving his family when he can accomplish both things at once.
i think that leaving something we know is basically what is going to happen, but is not explicitly done, lets us feel the gravity of sisko's decision to follow his calling
"guess what nerds, i already did" would have just made the whole thing feel trite
Just slap some grey into his beard (grey hair being the universal shorthand for having a stressful experience no matter how much time has passed) and have him do some of that acting thing to convey that going with the prophets had a cost. Just make it clear that the Sisko that comes back is not the Sisko who left (use the baseball for something sad) and you're good to go.
why do we need that though instead of having it be implied?
Allegedly a voice of reason.
0
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
or, I dunno, just not have him whisked away by the prophets for ages because the Sisko that we've come to know would never put hanging out with some weird aliens over being with his family
Jake is his rock and foundation, and Cassady builds upon that further, there's no way in hell he'd give up being with them and if the prophets were to keep him away against his will then they're outright assholes
the entire point is that he has come around to being a believer and this is his sacrifice to follow his calling
or, I dunno, just not have him whisked away by the prophets for ages because the Sisko that we've come to know would never put hanging out with some weird aliens over being with his family
Jake is his rock and foundation, and Cassady builds upon that further, there's no way in hell he'd give up being with them and if the prophets were to keep him away against his will then they're outright assholes
the entire point is that he has come around to being a believer and this is his sacrifice to follow his calling
except in the final season he was willing to stick it to the prophets and still get married
I dunno, I think he accepted his place as The Emissary, and his role in helping Bajor rebuild itself, but his family was still the centre of his universe. If he had any change of heart on that end and allowed his role as the emissary to become his primary focus then they did an awful awful job conveying that
The whole Dukat and Kai Wynn subplot in the last season was poorly handled. They just threw that whole "last battle" with Dukat in at the very last second of the last episode and it always felt really ridiculous to me.
+16
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
They didn't need to have Sisko "leave" at all. The aliens that were his mothers people exist outside of linear time. He literally could have just shown up at the station the next instant and when asked "I thought you were going to be with the prophets?" by Kira he could have said "I did, for ages."
When you write that one of the aliens decided to take human form and give birth to him after meeting him and they can do that because of how they exist outside of time then you can't honestly justify someone like Sisko leaving his family when he can accomplish both things at once.
i think that leaving something we know is basically what is going to happen, but is not explicitly done, lets us feel the gravity of sisko's decision to follow his calling
"guess what nerds, i already did" would have just made the whole thing feel trite
Just slap some grey into his beard (grey hair being the universal shorthand for having a stressful experience no matter how much time has passed) and have him do some of that acting thing to convey that going with the prophets had a cost. Just make it clear that the Sisko that comes back is not the Sisko who left (use the baseball for something sad) and you're good to go.
why do we need that though instead of having it be implied?
It's implied he's going to come back, but between Bill and Ted and Back to the Future we the audience have some expectations when it comes to time travel shenanigans.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
the entire point is that he has come around to being a believer and this is his sacrifice to follow his calling
except in the final season he was willing to stick it to the prophets and still get married
I dunno, I think he accepted his place as The Emissary, and his role in helping Bajor rebuild itself, but his family was still the centre of his universe. If he had any change of heart on that end and allowed his role as the emissary to become his primary focus then they did an awful awful job conveying that
I don't see the combination there as too jarring. He definitely became a true believer over the course of the series, but I'm having trouble thinking of encounters he had with the Prophets where he didn't push back against their because-we-say-sos fairly hard, especially if their pronouncements seemed really arbitrary. They folded as often as not when push came to shove, despite trying their best to see him as something between a tool and a pet most of the time.
It's not an on-screen thing, but I kind of figured his planning to be back in Linearistan on a timescale of a year could have been an example of that. "Remain in the Temple my entire ass," that kind of thing. It fits as well as anything else with their wanting to keep him around versus his certain refusal to abandon his family outright.
I also wonder how much of his believerness was in the sense of "I am the Prophets' willing instrument" versus "My main goal for this relationship is using it to help the planet I basically adopted." They kept a lot of balls in the air about Bajor, but a bit more attention on his secular motivations towards a world which obviously means a hell of a lot to Sisko would have been interesting to drill into.
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
In BSG those were all established from the very start though. Baltar spends the whole show literally seeing an "angel from God" and there's even like 2 or more Season 1 episodes specifically about this.
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
In BSG those were all established from the very start though. Baltar spends the whole show literally seeing an "angel from God" and there's even like 2 or more Season 1 episodes specifically about this.
Uhh, the very first episode of DS9 had the prophets too. And, minimally, S1 had the whole Prophet Kira vs Pah'wraith Jake supersaiyan fight right on the damn promenade.
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
In BSG those were all established from the very start though. Baltar spends the whole show literally seeing an "angel from God" and there's even like 2 or more Season 1 episodes specifically about this.
Uhh, the very first episode of DS9 had the prophets too. And, minimally, S1 had the whole Prophet Kira vs Pah'wraith Jake supersaiyan fight right on the damn promenade.
The Reckoning was season 6. I can only assume they started working on the script after watching season one of Dragon Ball Z, which ran concurrently with season 5. Are you sure about your grasp on linear time?
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
In BSG those were all established from the very start though. Baltar spends the whole show literally seeing an "angel from God" and there's even like 2 or more Season 1 episodes specifically about this.
Uhh, the very first episode of DS9 had the prophets too. And, minimally, S1 had the whole Prophet Kira vs Pah'wraith Jake supersaiyan fight right on the damn promenade.
The Reckoning was season 6, I assume because they started working on the script after watching season one of Dragon Ball Z. Are you sure about your grasp on linear time?
Yeah, afaik the first time the Pah'wraiths show up is like S5.
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
In BSG those were all established from the very start though. Baltar spends the whole show literally seeing an "angel from God" and there's even like 2 or more Season 1 episodes specifically about this.
Uhh, the very first episode of DS9 had the prophets too. And, minimally, S1 had the whole Prophet Kira vs Pah'wraith Jake supersaiyan fight right on the damn promenade.
Yo I just watched s1 and don't remember that epic battle
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
In BSG those were all established from the very start though. Baltar spends the whole show literally seeing an "angel from God" and there's even like 2 or more Season 1 episodes specifically about this.
The beginning of the show, much like the beginning of DS9 was ambiguous about it. Were Head Six and, later, Head Baltar real? Or were they the result of a mental break? Or faulty Cylon programming? Are the prophets gods, or aliens? And is there a meaningful difference?
For me, when these mysteries devolve into "it was some version of an Abrahamic god controlling things all along!" I just roll my eyes. It's unsatisfying in the extreme, and feels like a lazy way to conclude things because it provides an answer without substance, specifically that everything that happened was simply part of the mysterious ways of the divine. Mysterious ways, by definition, cannot be explained, so the big plot hooks simply end with a big shrug.
Admittedly, my feelings largely stem from my bias as an atheist. I'm sure there are many viewers who liked the endings specifically because it reaffirmed a belief in the kind of god(s) they can recognize.
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
In BSG those were all established from the very start though. Baltar spends the whole show literally seeing an "angel from God" and there's even like 2 or more Season 1 episodes specifically about this.
The beginning of the show, much like the beginning of DS9 was ambiguous about it. Were Head Six and, later, Head Baltar real? Or were they the result of a mental break? Or faulty Cylon programming? Are the prophets gods, or aliens? And is there a meaningful difference?
For me, when these mysteries devolve into "it was some version of an Abrahamic god controlling things all along!" I just roll my eyes. It's unsatisfying in the extreme, and feels like a lazy way to conclude things because it provides an answer without substance, specifically that everything that happened was simply part of the mysterious ways of the divine. Mysterious ways, by definition, cannot be explained, so the big plot hooks simply end with a big shrug.
Admittedly, my feelings largely stem from my bias as an atheist. I'm sure there are many viewers who liked the endings specifically because it reaffirmed a belief in the kind of god(s) they can recognize.
I mean, you can not like it but that doesn't mean it wasn't a firmly established element and in many ways most likely explanation for what was going on (for whatever you want to think "God" is in BSG) There's a literal episode in S1 called "The Hand of God" about Baltar and his belief in his being part of some plan. And another earlier episode that is a straight up test by God.
Basically, BSG established from the getgo the at least the very real possibility that something God-esque was directly meddling in the events of the series, including via potentially corporeal or non-corporeal visions, and so ending the series on that note is not at all unexpected.
DS9 doesn't even introduce the idea of evil prophets till like S5. And idea of them fighting with the prophets and being the main bad guy doesn't get brought in till like half way through season 7 or something. (there's no real implication with the fight in I think S6 that this is like the Big Thing for the series itself) And the show especially doesn't establish the idea that the prophets vs pah'wraiths fight that is now the big deal ending will be decided by fisticuffs at Mount Doom till like 30 minutes before the end of the entire show. And even then it feels like they forgot about the plot when writing the last episode and shoehorned the whole thing in during reshoots.
I was kind of impressed that Keiko gets possessed by an evil prophet, giving absolute proof that they really exist and really are trapped in the fire caves where she just visited, and no-one does anything about this.
You'd expect the area to be quarantined with forcefields and sensors and immediately transporting anyone who goes close away to be yelled at.
With the more prudent option to bathe the place in that harmful to prophets time radiation (more genocidal, so probably something Section 31 would consider rather than the cast).
Nope, just write 'Here be dragonspah-wraiths' on the map and be done with it.
I was kind of impressed that Keiko gets possessed by an evil prophet, giving absolute proof that they really exist and really are trapped in the fire caves where she just visited, and no-one does anything about this.
You'd expect the area to be quarantined with forcefields and sensors and immediately transporting anyone who goes close away to be yelled at.
With the more prudent option to bathe the place in that harmful to prophets time radiation (more genocidal, so probably something Section 31 would consider rather than the cast).
Nope, just write 'Here be dragonspah-wraiths' on the map and be done with it.
To be fair, this was not the first nor last time a Trek episode introduced something major and potentially universe-changing in one episode and forgot all about it and its consequences afterwards.
The problem with the DS9 ending is that it's not Trek. Trek is about humanity overcoming is basic instincts for hatred and violence and superstitions, and reaching its full potential. The ending of DS9 was about Sisko and Dukat playing roles in prophecies of Abrahamic-religions-with-prostetics and fist-fighting in a cave of fire to destroy a holy book that's the key to Hell.
I have the same problem with the ending of Sacrifice of Angels. Instead of humanity leading the way and using its resourcefulness to prevent the Dominion fleet from reaching the Alpha Quadrant, Sisko basically prays hard enough to convince the Prophets to make the fleet magically disappear.
I love the Bajoran religion, it adds great depth to their society and their characters. And I love the Prophets as aliens so far removed from us we can barely make any sense of them or grasp their godlike power. But making them into active agents in the story of the show was a huge mistake IMO.
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
In BSG those were all established from the very start though. Baltar spends the whole show literally seeing an "angel from God" and there's even like 2 or more Season 1 episodes specifically about this.
The beginning of the show, much like the beginning of DS9 was ambiguous about it. Were Head Six and, later, Head Baltar real? Or were they the result of a mental break? Or faulty Cylon programming? Are the prophets gods, or aliens? And is there a meaningful difference?
For me, when these mysteries devolve into "it was some version of an Abrahamic god controlling things all along!" I just roll my eyes. It's unsatisfying in the extreme, and feels like a lazy way to conclude things because it provides an answer without substance, specifically that everything that happened was simply part of the mysterious ways of the divine. Mysterious ways, by definition, cannot be explained, so the big plot hooks simply end with a big shrug.
Admittedly, my feelings largely stem from my bias as an atheist. I'm sure there are many viewers who liked the endings specifically because it reaffirmed a belief in the kind of god(s) they can recognize.
I mean, you can not like it but that doesn't mean it wasn't a firmly established element and in many ways most likely explanation for what was going on (for whatever you want to think "God" is in BSG) There's a literal episode in S1 called "The Hand of God" about Baltar and his belief in his being part of some plan. And another earlier episode that is a straight up test by God.
Basically, BSG established from the getgo the at least the very real possibility that something God-esque was directly meddling in the events of the series, including via potentially corporeal or non-corporeal visions, and so ending the series on that note is not at all unexpected.
True, but I was hoping for something different. Something that would subvert the characters' (and the audience's) expectations. Or, at least, for it to be a lot more ambiguous than Head Six and Head Baltar walking around our Earth as agents of this power, directly commenting on both us and it at the end. For me, a big part of the appeal of the show was that pretty much everyone was operating with incomplete information, with something looming (but knowable) in the background. For it to end with, almost literally, "Nope, it really was god pulling all the strings" just sucked away most of the enjoyment I had. We can't know the motivations of the show's god, or why what it orchestrated was so convoluted, or why it never decided to simply step in itself and directly affect events. Again, to me, it feels like a false resolution.
DS9 doesn't even introduce the idea of evil prophets till like S5. And idea of them fighting with the prophets and being the main bad guy doesn't get brought in till like half way through season 7 or something. (there's no real implication with the fight in I think S6 that this is like the Big Thing for the series itself) And the show especially doesn't establish the idea that the prophets vs pah'wraiths fight that is now the big deal ending will be decided by fisticuffs at Mount Doom till like 30 minutes before the end of the entire show. And even then it feels like they forgot about the plot when writing the last episode and shoehorned the whole thing in during reshoots.
I think Richy's explanation for why he didn't care for it more or less mirror's my own reasons, so I won't repeat it here.
Anyway, this isn't a BSG thread, so I'll end that part of the conversation here.
I was kind of impressed that Keiko gets possessed by an evil prophet, giving absolute proof that they really exist and really are trapped in the fire caves where she just visited, and no-one does anything about this.
You'd expect the area to be quarantined with forcefields and sensors and immediately transporting anyone who goes close away to be yelled at.
With the more prudent option to bathe the place in that harmful to prophets time radiation (more genocidal, so probably something Section 31 would consider rather than the cast).
Nope, just write 'Here be dragonspah-wraiths' on the map and be done with it.
To be fair, this was not the first nor last time a Trek episode introduced something major and potentially universe-changing in one episode and forgot all about it and its consequences afterwards.
I kinda enjoy the idea of the Trek universe being so profoundly awash in freakish hostile supernatural eldritch horrors taking over minds or shaping reality or shuffling people off to parallel timelines or being holodecks that the population's opinion on ridiculous edge-case risks seems to be "oh, hey, it's Wednesday again."
+2
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
I was kind of impressed that Keiko gets possessed by an evil prophet, giving absolute proof that they really exist and really are trapped in the fire caves where she just visited, and no-one does anything about this.
You'd expect the area to be quarantined with forcefields and sensors and immediately transporting anyone who goes close away to be yelled at.
With the more prudent option to bathe the place in that harmful to prophets time radiation (more genocidal, so probably something Section 31 would consider rather than the cast).
Nope, just write 'Here be dragonspah-wraiths' on the map and be done with it.
To be fair, this was not the first nor last time a Trek episode introduced something major and potentially universe-changing in one episode and forgot all about it and its consequences afterwards.
I kinda enjoy the idea of the Trek universe being so profoundly awash in freakish hostile supernatural eldritch horrors taking over minds or shaping reality or shuffling people off to parallel timelines or being holodecks that the population's opinion on ridiculous edge-case risks seems to be "oh, hey, it's Wednesday again."
I mean, they do prepare everyone on board a starship, young and old to be prepared to die at any time for any number of horrible reasons. They don't even have pressure suites at arms reach. Hell, 0 G training is so seldom used it's considered a joke by many. It seems to me that Starfeet is basically sending a bunch of trained monkeys into space to observe and document all the horrible ways someone can die.
Star Trek is like Fallout. Only instead of creating vaults with different groups to study, they instead put them on starships.
"Ok we just launched the ship full of rural irish settlers, what's next? How's about native americans, yeah let's send that ship in the general direction of Cardassia space and see what happens."
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
Star Trek is like Fallout. Only instead of creating vaults with different groups to study, they instead put them on starships.
"Ok we just launched the ship full of rural irish settlers, what's next? How's about native americans, yeah let's send that ship in the general direction of Cardassia space and see what happens."
Stardate 63421.3
The journey out of federation space has been uneventful apart from some of the crew complaining of a humming noise at night.
Stardate 63421.6
That humming noise is getting worse.
Star Trek is like Fallout. Only instead of creating vaults with different groups to study, they instead put them on starships.
"Ok we just launched the ship full of rural irish settlers, what's next? How's about native americans, yeah let's send that ship in the general direction of Cardassia space and see what happens."
To be fair, that's how I'd expect intergalactic colonization to go. It's gonna be a specific pre-formed group, not some random hodgepodge cross-section of the population.
+1
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Jean-Luc et al also have the benefit of a room full of writers giving them win-win third options, rather than the compromises and lesser evils that the DS-9 crew often had to settle for.
as opposed to DS9 which is written by a crazy man in the 50s.
I read somewhere that a suggested last shot of the series was going to be Benny Russel on a soundstage, DS9 script in hand.
I am so, so glad they never went with that. I'd have checked out of the entire franchise permanently if they'd done that.
Because then it wouldn't be real?
i think in a sense, yeah
like
obviously it’s not real real and there’s no illusion that it is, but, if it had turned out to all be some pulp sci fi written in the 40s or whatever it would not only have not made any sense in the context of the entire franchise but it would have eliminated a lot of the meaningful impact the events of the show had on the setting and on characters that existed outside DS9 itself
it would have been a real dumb way to end the series just to be cute
I don't feel that way at all. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't make anything we've seen different, not unless someone then, later, came along and decided to play with the idea that the trek world is a fake world instead of a real one, like Picard bursts out of Benny's word processor or something. Which I could understand a fan objecting to because then it changes the genre of the story from science fiction to...some kind of magical realism literary fantasy, like a Kurt Vonnegut novel. But if someone wanted to do that story, they always could have! They could have had Captain Kirk burst out of the screen and go around trying to pick up chicks with Gene Roddenberry or whatever. They didn't.
And I don't think doing it would be cute; that seems unnecessarily reductive to me. It would be a poetic grace note reaffirming what Trek has always been: the work of people here and now, in the real world we live in, projecting all their hopes for a better world than this one into this fictional work of art. A reminder that what makes Star Trek great isn't spaceships or explosions but something else, something more ineffable.
Someone can have a crushingly literal-minded reading of that if they want, but...why
It's one of the reasons people hated the Enterprise finale, and that was still within the setting.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
+4
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
well enterprise’s ending robbed the show of any ability to stand on its own as a separate installation and made it all basically explicitly inferior in the shadow of TNG
I was kind of impressed that Keiko gets possessed by an evil prophet, giving absolute proof that they really exist and really are trapped in the fire caves where she just visited, and no-one does anything about this.
You'd expect the area to be quarantined with forcefields and sensors and immediately transporting anyone who goes close away to be yelled at.
With the more prudent option to bathe the place in that harmful to prophets time radiation (more genocidal, so probably something Section 31 would consider rather than the cast).
Nope, just write 'Here be dragonspah-wraiths' on the map and be done with it.
For O'Brien, this is like a 3 of his "Oh Shit" radar.
Posts
oh, well, we finally convinced the godlike aliens to just take care of things for us
That goes back to my point - this is all Sisko's human-limited and linear-time interpretation of the Prophet's actions. The fact the show indicates it's correct takes the Prophets down from "aliens impossibly far removed from our understanding" to "regular guys with understandable and manipulable motivations".
The Prophets shouldn't have been able to understand what it means to be "seen as gods" and their idea of "helping Bajor" shouldn't be relatable to immediate material needs and strategic military assistance.
When you write that one of the aliens decided to take human form and give birth to him after meeting him and they can do that because of how they exist outside of time then you can't honestly justify someone like Sisko leaving his family when he can accomplish both things at once.
i think that leaving something we know is basically what is going to happen, but is not explicitly done, lets us feel the gravity of sisko's decision to follow his calling
"guess what nerds, i already did" would have just made the whole thing feel trite
They didn't do that, they did something way worse. They took over a human to get him to be born, and there's no evidence that she was a consensual partner in this.
Just slap some grey into his beard (grey hair being the universal shorthand for having a stressful experience no matter how much time has passed) and have him do some of that acting thing to convey that going with the prophets had a cost. Just make it clear that the Sisko that comes back is not the Sisko who left (use the baseball for something sad) and you're good to go.
Jake is his rock and foundation, and Cassady builds upon that further, there's no way in hell he'd give up being with them and if the prophets were to keep him away against his will then they're outright assholes
why do we need that though instead of having it be implied?
the entire point is that he has come around to being a believer and this is his sacrifice to follow his calling
except in the final season he was willing to stick it to the prophets and still get married
I dunno, I think he accepted his place as The Emissary, and his role in helping Bajor rebuild itself, but his family was still the centre of his universe. If he had any change of heart on that end and allowed his role as the emissary to become his primary focus then they did an awful awful job conveying that
It's implied he's going to come back, but between Bill and Ted and Back to the Future we the audience have some expectations when it comes to time travel shenanigans.
I loved that because its so fucking metal
This feels like a Ron Moore thing, because BSG's ending was riddled with this, too. Baltar starting a very Abrahamic monotheistic religion, Starbuck essentially being an angel guiding the crew and then outright vanishing, etc.
Moogie was a great character.
OK, so she doesn't make the top 10 but that's only because DS9 has a lot of great characters.
I don't see the combination there as too jarring. He definitely became a true believer over the course of the series, but I'm having trouble thinking of encounters he had with the Prophets where he didn't push back against their because-we-say-sos fairly hard, especially if their pronouncements seemed really arbitrary. They folded as often as not when push came to shove, despite trying their best to see him as something between a tool and a pet most of the time.
It's not an on-screen thing, but I kind of figured his planning to be back in Linearistan on a timescale of a year could have been an example of that. "Remain in the Temple my entire ass," that kind of thing. It fits as well as anything else with their wanting to keep him around versus his certain refusal to abandon his family outright.
I also wonder how much of his believerness was in the sense of "I am the Prophets' willing instrument" versus "My main goal for this relationship is using it to help the planet I basically adopted." They kept a lot of balls in the air about Bajor, but a bit more attention on his secular motivations towards a world which obviously means a hell of a lot to Sisko would have been interesting to drill into.
In BSG those were all established from the very start though. Baltar spends the whole show literally seeing an "angel from God" and there's even like 2 or more Season 1 episodes specifically about this.
I always loved the way Rom said "Mooooooogi."
Uhh, the very first episode of DS9 had the prophets too. And, minimally, S1 had the whole Prophet Kira vs Pah'wraith Jake supersaiyan fight right on the damn promenade.
He managed to cram like eight syllables into it.
Yeah, afaik the first time the Pah'wraiths show up is like S5.
Yo I just watched s1 and don't remember that epic battle
The beginning of the show, much like the beginning of DS9 was ambiguous about it. Were Head Six and, later, Head Baltar real? Or were they the result of a mental break? Or faulty Cylon programming? Are the prophets gods, or aliens? And is there a meaningful difference?
For me, when these mysteries devolve into "it was some version of an Abrahamic god controlling things all along!" I just roll my eyes. It's unsatisfying in the extreme, and feels like a lazy way to conclude things because it provides an answer without substance, specifically that everything that happened was simply part of the mysterious ways of the divine. Mysterious ways, by definition, cannot be explained, so the big plot hooks simply end with a big shrug.
Admittedly, my feelings largely stem from my bias as an atheist. I'm sure there are many viewers who liked the endings specifically because it reaffirmed a belief in the kind of god(s) they can recognize.
I mean, you can not like it but that doesn't mean it wasn't a firmly established element and in many ways most likely explanation for what was going on (for whatever you want to think "God" is in BSG) There's a literal episode in S1 called "The Hand of God" about Baltar and his belief in his being part of some plan. And another earlier episode that is a straight up test by God.
Basically, BSG established from the getgo the at least the very real possibility that something God-esque was directly meddling in the events of the series, including via potentially corporeal or non-corporeal visions, and so ending the series on that note is not at all unexpected.
DS9 doesn't even introduce the idea of evil prophets till like S5. And idea of them fighting with the prophets and being the main bad guy doesn't get brought in till like half way through season 7 or something. (there's no real implication with the fight in I think S6 that this is like the Big Thing for the series itself) And the show especially doesn't establish the idea that the prophets vs pah'wraiths fight that is now the big deal ending will be decided by fisticuffs at Mount Doom till like 30 minutes before the end of the entire show. And even then it feels like they forgot about the plot when writing the last episode and shoehorned the whole thing in during reshoots.
You'd expect the area to be quarantined with forcefields and sensors and immediately transporting anyone who goes close away to be yelled at.
With the more prudent option to bathe the place in that harmful to prophets time radiation (more genocidal, so probably something Section 31 would consider rather than the cast).
Nope, just write 'Here be dragonspah-wraiths' on the map and be done with it.
To be fair, this was not the first nor last time a Trek episode introduced something major and potentially universe-changing in one episode and forgot all about it and its consequences afterwards.
True, but I was hoping for something different. Something that would subvert the characters' (and the audience's) expectations. Or, at least, for it to be a lot more ambiguous than Head Six and Head Baltar walking around our Earth as agents of this power, directly commenting on both us and it at the end. For me, a big part of the appeal of the show was that pretty much everyone was operating with incomplete information, with something looming (but knowable) in the background. For it to end with, almost literally, "Nope, it really was god pulling all the strings" just sucked away most of the enjoyment I had. We can't know the motivations of the show's god, or why what it orchestrated was so convoluted, or why it never decided to simply step in itself and directly affect events. Again, to me, it feels like a false resolution.
I think Richy's explanation for why he didn't care for it more or less mirror's my own reasons, so I won't repeat it here.
Anyway, this isn't a BSG thread, so I'll end that part of the conversation here.
I kinda enjoy the idea of the Trek universe being so profoundly awash in freakish hostile supernatural eldritch horrors taking over minds or shaping reality or shuffling people off to parallel timelines or being holodecks that the population's opinion on ridiculous edge-case risks seems to be "oh, hey, it's Wednesday again."
I mean, they do prepare everyone on board a starship, young and old to be prepared to die at any time for any number of horrible reasons. They don't even have pressure suites at arms reach. Hell, 0 G training is so seldom used it's considered a joke by many. It seems to me that Starfeet is basically sending a bunch of trained monkeys into space to observe and document all the horrible ways someone can die.
"Ok we just launched the ship full of rural irish settlers, what's next? How's about native americans, yeah let's send that ship in the general direction of Cardassia space and see what happens."
Stardate 63421.3
The journey out of federation space has been uneventful apart from some of the crew complaining of a humming noise at night.
Stardate 63421.6
That humming noise is getting worse.
Stardate 634421.9
Hdurhev heueidhh jjwkgevbdi beodsnv.
To be fair, that's how I'd expect intergalactic colonization to go. It's gonna be a specific pre-formed group, not some random hodgepodge cross-section of the population.
I don't feel that way at all. It doesn't change anything. It doesn't make anything we've seen different, not unless someone then, later, came along and decided to play with the idea that the trek world is a fake world instead of a real one, like Picard bursts out of Benny's word processor or something. Which I could understand a fan objecting to because then it changes the genre of the story from science fiction to...some kind of magical realism literary fantasy, like a Kurt Vonnegut novel. But if someone wanted to do that story, they always could have! They could have had Captain Kirk burst out of the screen and go around trying to pick up chicks with Gene Roddenberry or whatever. They didn't.
And I don't think doing it would be cute; that seems unnecessarily reductive to me. It would be a poetic grace note reaffirming what Trek has always been: the work of people here and now, in the real world we live in, projecting all their hopes for a better world than this one into this fictional work of art. A reminder that what makes Star Trek great isn't spaceships or explosions but something else, something more ineffable.
Someone can have a crushingly literal-minded reading of that if they want, but...why
which i mean
fair
but it’s just rude to say it out loud
For O'Brien, this is like a 3 of his "Oh Shit" radar.