That was my initial thought, to, given I always assume I'm older than most of the people here.
I smirked.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
Who could possibly want to play a format with mana burn and damage on the stack? Those things were terrible!
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Oh God, Mana Burn.
My friends were such dicks about that.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Who could possibly want to play a format with mana burn and damage on the stack? Those things were terrible!
Mana burn I could take or leave, but I miss damage on the stack a lot and think it's better than the alternative.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Damage on the stack is really bad and the only reason it worked like that in the first place was because of the rule where tapped creatures did no combat damage so you needed to have your clerics able to defend and then use their abilities.
Early magic was real dumb.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I got into Magic just as Urza's Saga got released. Talk about baptism by fire. I think we ended up playing mostly with Tempest block for a long time though because the box art was cooler for those sets, and that was the main factor in what packs/precons we bought.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I wanted to get in during Alpha. My parents wouldn’t let me, so for years I bought Star Wars CCG cards.
I have recently given most of those cards to my nephew. Cousin? Nephew? Whatever. Cousin I think, actually.
I didn’t own cards of my own until the ninth grade when I got some silly green deck from a guy. And then I think it was onslaught block? I made a sliver deck, at any case.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I still don't know what "damage on the stack" means and I definitely started in the era where that was the rule
So damage used to go on the stack like spells and abilities do. So like you'd attack, your opponent would declare blockers, and then the damage would go on the stack. You could then respond to the damage, rather than just the declaration of blockers.
It allowed for things like attacking with Mogg Fanatic, putting the attack damage on the stack, and then sacrificing the Fanatic to deal another point of damage with its ability.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
I still don't know what "damage on the stack" means and I definitely started in the era where that was the rule
It specifically refers to combat damage going on the stack like spells and stuff
so if I'm blocking with this little piggy
I could have it put its 2 combat damage on the stack to whatever its blocking, and then before combat damage actually happens I could sacrifice it and gain the 4 life while still dealing the 2 damage
Damage using the stack, mana burn, and a whole host of other rules (like multiple instances of lifelink no longer stacking, creation of the term "battlefield," the return of "cast") were changed with the release of 10th Edition in 2009.
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
milski on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
The funny thing about a lot of the rule 'changes' in tenth edition were to make it work how a newbie player would think it would work.
Like, the first time someone explained mana burn to me I went "Are you shitting me?"
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
Declaring a blocker will no longer prevent the attacker from dealing damage if the blocker dies/is removed before combat damage is calculated
Life link will only gain you at most as much life as life the other creature has toughness, so a 3/3 life link getting chumped by a 1/1 would only gain 1 life
Or at least those are the things that I think feel unfair/unintuitive when playing the way damage on the stack shenanigans did
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
I was saying the same thing!
I think Dryad Arbor will be fine; it's already treated like a regular land most of the time, not a spell, so IIRC Expertise spells already can't cast it.
For rules-changes, I could see them doing something with Exile. There are so many "Exile target permanent until this card leaves the battlefield" removal effects that it might as well be a new keyword rather than "exile", which used to mean "gone and is never ever coming back".
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SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
Declaring a blocker will no longer prevent the attacker from dealing damage if the blocker dies/is removed before combat damage is calculated
This one in particular is very counter-intuitive as a new player
Damage using the stack, mana burn, and a whole host of other rules (like multiple instances of lifelink no longer stacking, creation of the term "battlefield," the return of "cast") were changed with the release of 10th Edition in 2009.
Slight correction: the set was Magic 2010. 10th ("Xth") Edition was several years before that and all of that nonsense (except maybe lifelink? I can't recall how it operated when it received an official keyword in Future Sight) was still in effecct.
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
Declaring a blocker will no longer prevent the attacker from dealing damage if the blocker dies/is removed before combat damage is calculated
Life link will only gain you at most as much life as life the other creature has toughness, so a 3/3 life link getting chumped by a 1/1 would only gain 1 life
Or at least those are the things that I think feel unfair/unintuitive when playing the way damage on the stack shenanigans did
The first thing is how it currently works with trample. The second is how Drain Life effects worked once upon a time. I don't see either changing.
Damage using the stack, mana burn, and a whole host of other rules (like multiple instances of lifelink no longer stacking, creation of the term "battlefield," the return of "cast") were changed with the release of 10th Edition in 2009.
Slight correction: the set was Magic 2010. 10th ("Xth") Edition was several years before that and all of that nonsense (except maybe lifelink? I can't recall how it operated when it received an official keyword in Future Sight) was still in effecct.
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
Declaring a blocker will no longer prevent the attacker from dealing damage if the blocker dies/is removed before combat damage is calculated
Life link will only gain you at most as much life as life the other creature has toughness, so a 3/3 life link getting chumped by a 1/1 would only gain 1 life
Or at least those are the things that I think feel unfair/unintuitive when playing the way damage on the stack shenanigans did
The first thing is how it currently works with trample. The second is how Drain Life effects worked once upon a time. I don't see either changing.
I remember back in middle school, which was peak "My uncle works at Nintendo" kids-making-shit-up age, some kid told me that they were going to add a new color in the next set. It was going to be purple and it was going to be aliens from outer space.
For rules-changes, I could see them doing something with Exile. There are so many "Exile target permanent until this card leaves the battlefield" removal effects that it might as well be a new keyword rather than "exile", which used to mean "gone and is never ever coming back".
There are a lot of cards that have this effect, but I think what's helping them work without a simplifying keyword is that, in paper, they all work intuitively if you just stick the exiled card under the permanent that's imprisoning it. 99% of the time it's easy to remember what exiled what, and what comes back if you destroy a Conclave Tribunal, how big a creature is being exiled by Bishop of Binding etc., and it's a mechanic that becomes easier to understand by how people shortcut it, rather than harder. The only times it gets muddled is the rare instances of cards that interact with exiled cards, like Processors or Crackling Drake, and these would just get more confusing if there was a different word for temporarily exiling cards.
Mana Burn made perfect sense . As it is now, I can float like 12 mana via Cabal Stronghold "just in case" and it doesn't matter.
I agree with all the other rule changes, though. They were for the best.
The mana pool empties out at the end of every phase now though so floating mana isn't really a thing? (unless you have Kruphix on the board or something)
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
Declaring a blocker will no longer prevent the attacker from dealing damage if the blocker dies/is removed before combat damage is calculated
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
I was saying the same thing!
I think Dryad Arbor will be fine; it's already treated like a regular land most of the time, not a spell, so IIRC Expertise spells already can't cast it.
Can't Zenith for X=0 as ramp if Dryad Arbor has CMC = Undefined
I ate an engineer
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
Declaring a blocker will no longer prevent the attacker from dealing damage if the blocker dies/is removed before combat damage is calculated
this would make scapeshift nigh unplayable
Yeah I don't think it would actually be a very balanced change, its just a thing that doesn't seem "right" the first time you bump up against it
So what's y'alls pick for the next big rule change?
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
I was saying the same thing!
I think Dryad Arbor will be fine; it's already treated like a regular land most of the time, not a spell, so IIRC Expertise spells already can't cast it.
Can't Zenith for X=0 as ramp if Dryad Arbor has CMC = Undefined
The problem with the blocker thing is that it both makes some lines a lot simpler while also making double strike weird as hell. Sometimes there are cases where you want to swing in for damage and have removal, but kinda hope the opponent doesn't block so you can hold it up. If you suddenly get full damage, the line is always "attack, then blast the blocker if it's in the way."
Also, it would give all double-strike creatures kinda-trample, because there's no blocker on combat damage if they kill the blocker with first strike damage
All of this said i don't think there are any changes that really need to be made at the moment
'undefined cmc' probably don't work in the rules, also
"Doesn't work in the rules" doesn't really matter when discussing hypothetical (if extremely unlikely) rule changes, though. They just have to do a bunch of rewriting on the CMC section.
I ate an engineer
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
Kinda sad Dryad Arbor was a one off. Always thought that card was cool (and looked cool).
I really don't think 'undefined cmc' is a great way to classify those cards, and no one is doing anything particularly busted with them right now anyway. Those changes to the rules would be bad and render a lot of other cards odd when paired up against them!
I'm somewhat worried that with Ral's Expertise, we have extremely cheap ways of casting extremely busted cards at instant speed, so we'll see how things turn out there
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I really don't think 'undefined cmc' is a great way to classify those cards, and no one is doing anything particularly busted with them right now anyway. Those changes to the rules would be bad and render a lot of other cards odd when paired up against them!
How so? I'm trying to think of how it would affect things. There are plenty of card traits that you could remove with only a quirk or two; having no CMC doesn't have to be any weirder than having no color or no creature type. A spell without a CMC couldn't be countered by some counterspells like Disrupting Shoal, Spell Blast, Prohibit, Spell Queller etc., can't be copied by cards like Expansion, can't be chosen for Inquisition of Kozilek... basically just cards that have restrictions based on CMC. I feel like that's a much less impactful group of cards than all the "cast spell with CMC X or less for free" cards. And it changes the pool of interactions to "cards that are slightly weaker/stronger if you try to use them with/against the CMC-less spells" instead of "cards that let you instantly cast CMC-less spells for free, which are so powerful they were originally supposed to cost both mana and time to play"
Having attackers swing past declared blockers that have died/left the battlefield would make a who lot of "sacrifice creature" or "return creature you control to owner's hand" cards & abilities a lot worse. I agree it makes more sense to new players though.
I think if you do that though, you gotta let people re-declare blockers in response during that phase. Otherwise a lot of games are going to end with "Haha - I fireballed your blocker that was preventing lethal and you die even though you've got other creatures on the board doing nothing"
The mana pool empties out at the end of every phase now though so floating mana isn't really a thing? (unless you have Kruphix on the board or something)
Yep, it's a lot fringier now than it was back in the day. The only time I've intentionally done it is using Cabal Stronghold in case of syncopate etc.
That being said, it would make cards like Cabal Stronghold harder to use....
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I smirked.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
My friends were such dicks about that.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Astral Slide sends its regards
Mana burn I could take or leave, but I miss damage on the stack a lot and think it's better than the alternative.
Early magic was real dumb.
I have recently given most of those cards to my nephew. Cousin? Nephew? Whatever. Cousin I think, actually.
I didn’t own cards of my own until the ninth grade when I got some silly green deck from a guy. And then I think it was onslaught block? I made a sliver deck, at any case.
So damage used to go on the stack like spells and abilities do. So like you'd attack, your opponent would declare blockers, and then the damage would go on the stack. You could then respond to the damage, rather than just the declaration of blockers.
It allowed for things like attacking with Mogg Fanatic, putting the attack damage on the stack, and then sacrificing the Fanatic to deal another point of damage with its ability.
so if I'm blocking with this little piggy
I could have it put its 2 combat damage on the stack to whatever its blocking, and then before combat damage actually happens I could sacrifice it and gain the 4 life while still dealing the 2 damage
My thought is that unless they really like the free-spell Expertise decks, they're eventually gonna rule that spells with nonexistant mana costs have an undefined CMC rather than zero. The only problem is that it smacks dryad arbor in the crossfire.
Like, the first time someone explained mana burn to me I went "Are you shitting me?"
Declaring a blocker will no longer prevent the attacker from dealing damage if the blocker dies/is removed before combat damage is calculated
Life link will only gain you at most as much life as life the other creature has toughness, so a 3/3 life link getting chumped by a 1/1 would only gain 1 life
Or at least those are the things that I think feel unfair/unintuitive when playing the way damage on the stack shenanigans did
I was saying the same thing!
I think Dryad Arbor will be fine; it's already treated like a regular land most of the time, not a spell, so IIRC Expertise spells already can't cast it.
This one in particular is very counter-intuitive as a new player
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Slight correction: the set was Magic 2010. 10th ("Xth") Edition was several years before that and all of that nonsense (except maybe lifelink? I can't recall how it operated when it received an official keyword in Future Sight) was still in effecct.
Edit:
The first thing is how it currently works with trample. The second is how Drain Life effects worked once upon a time. I don't see either changing.
Yep, my mistake on the set.
I agree with all the other rule changes, though. They were for the best.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
There are a lot of cards that have this effect, but I think what's helping them work without a simplifying keyword is that, in paper, they all work intuitively if you just stick the exiled card under the permanent that's imprisoning it. 99% of the time it's easy to remember what exiled what, and what comes back if you destroy a Conclave Tribunal, how big a creature is being exiled by Bishop of Binding etc., and it's a mechanic that becomes easier to understand by how people shortcut it, rather than harder. The only times it gets muddled is the rare instances of cards that interact with exiled cards, like Processors or Crackling Drake, and these would just get more confusing if there was a different word for temporarily exiling cards.
The mana pool empties out at the end of every phase now though so floating mana isn't really a thing? (unless you have Kruphix on the board or something)
this would make scapeshift nigh unplayable
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
Can't Zenith for X=0 as ramp if Dryad Arbor has CMC = Undefined
Yeah I don't think it would actually be a very balanced change, its just a thing that doesn't seem "right" the first time you bump up against it
'undefined cmc' probably don't work in the rules, also
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
Ah right
...eh, seems fine. Maybe they could unban GSZ.
Also, it would give all double-strike creatures kinda-trample, because there's no blocker on combat damage if they kill the blocker with first strike damage
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
"Doesn't work in the rules" doesn't really matter when discussing hypothetical (if extremely unlikely) rule changes, though. They just have to do a bunch of rewriting on the CMC section.
ineedmayo.com Eidolon Journal Updated
How so? I'm trying to think of how it would affect things. There are plenty of card traits that you could remove with only a quirk or two; having no CMC doesn't have to be any weirder than having no color or no creature type. A spell without a CMC couldn't be countered by some counterspells like Disrupting Shoal, Spell Blast, Prohibit, Spell Queller etc., can't be copied by cards like Expansion, can't be chosen for Inquisition of Kozilek... basically just cards that have restrictions based on CMC. I feel like that's a much less impactful group of cards than all the "cast spell with CMC X or less for free" cards. And it changes the pool of interactions to "cards that are slightly weaker/stronger if you try to use them with/against the CMC-less spells" instead of "cards that let you instantly cast CMC-less spells for free, which are so powerful they were originally supposed to cost both mana and time to play"
I think if you do that though, you gotta let people re-declare blockers in response during that phase. Otherwise a lot of games are going to end with "Haha - I fireballed your blocker that was preventing lethal and you die even though you've got other creatures on the board doing nothing"
That being said, it would make cards like Cabal Stronghold harder to use....
PSN: Bizazedo
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Arena changes!
Cross post from G&T:
Duplicate rare or mythic cards will TURN INTO GEMS! HELL YEAH
CE events will keep ICRs but the upgrade rate will change
RNA gold draft starts Feb 1st with season 2 of ranked
You can rank up through BO3 in season 2