I mean, watching that Nazi get punched in the face was real satisfying for me, and watching that other Nazi cry after they murdered Heather Hyer was extremely cathartic for me.
To be clear, some people are vulnerable and we should do what we can to support them.
And some are Elliot Roger.
Yes, there are gradations and such. I mostly just think the suggestion that having sympathy is impossible unless you're distanced (and the implication that having it may be negative) is short sighted.
I don't think anyone's going to be surprised about schadenfreude.
I don't really believe in that, by which I mean the negative connotations. As long as you recognize the reason you are doing things and the things you are feeling, and they honestly fit within your moral paradigm, you can engage in almost anything without being poisoned
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The main reason people are skeptical of being able to reach out to incels isn't because they haven't tried before.
It's because they have tried, repeatedly, and it always ends the same way.
The difference between incels and cults is that most cultists don't start out as Internet trolls. Trolling is all about turning honest conversations sour for lols, so they are already armed with the tools they need to resist genuine attempts to reach out.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
You don't owe shitty people anything on the premise that they might not be shitty eventually maybe, so I don't know that there's anything wrong with /r/inceltears or the like.
Which is separate from the question of what's most productive.
How much opportunity is there to negotiate with current incels by being nice? Does public mockery and scorn help to fight against passive and active recruitment?
I'd like to help people who are in get out, and help people who are out stay out, but it doesn't necessarily follow that being nice to assholes is the best way to minimize the damage they cause.
Good cop bad cop, tit-for-tat, carrot and stick, etc. You can't let them sit there comfortable in the shit pile if you want any of them to accept a helping hand out of the mess.
You can't shame someone into abandoning the belief that they are shameful or embarrass them out of being awkward or mock them into thinking they're not pathetic.
- "I don't owe x people anything" is just the modern way of saying "I want social permission to be heartless in this context".
- r/inceltears is wrong purely because being a silly goose is wrong, no further details are needed.
I'm blown away by the idea that because you can't let people sit comfortably in their misery, you should actively make them more miserable by reinforcing it.
A friend of my ex-wife's got incel'd by a guy who she considered a friend and nothing else.
His last words before blowing his brains out right in front of her were "you're a fucking friendzoning bitch and this is your fault."
No, incels do not deserve a fucking iota of my pity. She is mentally destroyed, probably for life, because she wouldn't fuck some dude.
jungleroomx on
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Nova_CI have the needThe need for speedRegistered Userregular
You don't owe shitty people anything on the premise that they might not be shitty eventually maybe, so I don't know that there's anything wrong with /r/inceltears or the like.
Which is separate from the question of what's most productive.
How much opportunity is there to negotiate with current incels by being nice? Does public mockery and scorn help to fight against passive and active recruitment?
I'd like to help people who are in get out, and help people who are out stay out, but it doesn't necessarily follow that being nice to assholes is the best way to minimize the damage they cause.
Good cop bad cop, tit-for-tat, carrot and stick, etc. You can't let them sit there comfortable in the shit pile if you want any of them to accept a helping hand out of the mess.
You can't shame someone into abandoning the belief that they are shameful or embarrass them out of being awkward or mock them into thinking they're not pathetic.
- "I don't owe x people anything" is just the modern way of saying "I want social permission to be heartless in this context".
- r/inceltears is wrong purely because being a silly goose is wrong, no further details are needed.
I'm blown away by the idea that because you can't let people sit comfortably in their misery, you should actively make them more miserable by reinforcing it.
A friend of my ex-wife's got incel'd by a guy who she considered a friend and nothing else.
His last words before blowing his brains out right in front of her were "you're a fucking friendzoning bitch and this is your fault."
No, incels do not deserve a fucking iota of my pity. She is mentally destroyed, probably for life, because she wouldn't fuck some dude.
No, they don't deserve it. And she didn't deserve what he did to her.
And if life was about people getting what they deserve, this conversation would never need take place.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
Are you suggesting I have no empathy for any other set of people I don't think are traditionally "good" because I have a fervent, deep seated, primal disgust with incels?
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
Are you suggesting I have no empathy for any other set of people I don't think are traditionally "good" because I have a fervent, deep seated, primal disgust with incels?
I'm not making any assertions about your personality morality. I certainly don't know you well enough. But there has been a common topic through the thread about who deserves empathy and that's my two cents.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
Are you suggesting I have no empathy for any other set of people I don't think are traditionally "good" because I have a fervent, deep seated, primal disgust with incels?
I'm not making any assertions about your personality morality. I certainly don't know you well enough. But there has been a common topic through the thread about who deserves empathy and that's my two cents.
Gotcha.
My personal experiences color my outlook towards them, I am well aware. But I simply cannot muster sympathy for the devil in this case.
I see them no differently than white supremacists, of which I have a nearly identical outlook.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
Are you suggesting I have no empathy for any other set of people I don't think are traditionally "good" because I have a fervent, deep seated, primal disgust with incels?
I'm not making any assertions about your personality morality. I certainly don't know you well enough. But there has been a common topic through the thread about who deserves empathy and that's my two cents.
Gotcha.
My personal experiences color my outlook towards them, I am well aware. But I simply cannot muster sympathy for the devil in this case.
I see them no differently than white supremacists, of which I have a nearly identical outlook.
I don't think there are really any devils. Just victims inflicting their own pain on others making more victims.
You obviously can't condone immoral actions, and I can understand that the particulars of a given situation can make something personally more difficult. Like I said, I don't know you well enough to pass any kind of judgement.
In my view "they did this heinous thing, they don't deserve sympathy/empathy" as cousin to "they did this heinous thing, they don't deserve to live".
Because it is really feeling like there's two camps here: One wants to have members of a terrorist suicide rape cult see the light and leave said terrorist suicide rape cult, to the point of ending that terrorist suicide rape cult.
The other, I dunno? I feel like there's some bullshitting about what people actually want done with incels, if trying to reform them isn't on the menu. I'd prefer there be no bullshit so we can stop pretending we have the same goals.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
Are you suggesting I have no empathy for any other set of people I don't think are traditionally "good" because I have a fervent, deep seated, primal disgust with incels?
I'm not making any assertions about your personality morality. I certainly don't know you well enough. But there has been a common topic through the thread about who deserves empathy and that's my two cents.
Gotcha.
My personal experiences color my outlook towards them, I am well aware. But I simply cannot muster sympathy for the devil in this case.
I see them no differently than white supremacists, of which I have a nearly identical outlook.
I don't think there are really any devils. Just victims inflicting their own pain on others making more victims.
You obviously can't condone immoral actions, and I can understand that the particulars of a given situation can make something personally more difficult. Like I said, I don't know you well enough to pass any kind of judgement.
In my view "they did this heinous thing, they don't deserve sympathy/empathy" as cousin to "they did this heinous thing, they don't deserve to live".
Its not a cousin to it. It's a brother.
It's barely unspoken that these people are irredeemable and therefore they need to go away.
Go away and not harm anyone in the future mind you. Which means prison or death so let's say that part if that's what you mean.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
They advocate for the murder of not only women, but men AND minority men? And then the sexual enslavement of women and ritual genital disfigurement of Chads and Tyrones.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
They advocate for the murder of not only women, but men AND minority men? And then the sexual enslavement of women and ritual genital disfigurement of Chads and Tyrones.
They're like white supremacists evolved.
Furthermore, they've managed to create an image that obscures how dangerous and violent they are.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
They advocate for the murder of not only women, but men AND minority men? And then the sexual enslavement of women and ritual genital disfigurement of Chads and Tyrones.
They're like white supremacists evolved.
Well, terms matter. Incel as a philosophy has nothing to do with someone being sexually unfulfilled. This thread has already discussed that a bunch. It's more about how they see themselves versus others they've deemed 'less' than them. Which is the same as white supremacy. Like, racists believe their ethnic heritage gives them ownership over others. Likewise, Incels believe their status as 'undesirable' males gives them ownership over others.
If you're conflating the Incel philosophy with men who can't get a date, you're barking up the wrong tree. And the more this thread goes on, the more I realize how fundamentally different the two are. The problem is that Incel is recruiting from that pool, saying they can help, that things will get better if they 'bend the knee' so to speak. White supremacists recruit much the same, speaking out to disaffected white people who are receptive to the message that their lives are supposed to be better, if it weren't for the 'others'. It's an insidious thing, to take advantage of people's wish for something better by saying it should be, that someone out there is actively working against them. It appeals to a lot of base human motives and emotions, including pride and blame.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
They advocate for the murder of not only women, but men AND minority men? And then the sexual enslavement of women and ritual genital disfigurement of Chads and Tyrones.
They're like white supremacists evolved.
How widespread are those beliefs? I was under the impression those were the rare-ish extremists. Most incels are sad and bitter and use the community of other incels to not feel quite as alone while reinforcing the idea their problems aren't their fault.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
Because it is really feeling like there's two camps here: One wants to have members of a terrorist suicide rape cult see the light and leave said terrorist suicide rape cult, to the point of ending that terrorist suicide rape cult.
The other, I dunno? I feel like there's some bullshitting about what people actually want done with incels, if trying to reform them isn't on the menu. I'd prefer there be no bullshit so we can stop pretending we have the same goals.
Just because I want no part in reforming them myself doesn't mean I think we should be slaughtering manbabies en masse. These are people that literally have everything going for them. They tend to be white, relatively affluent, young men - which is like winning the lottery in Western society. They deserve no more of our resources or energy considering the highly patriarchal society we're already living in.
Do I hope they manage to fix themselves eventually? Absolutely. Do I want to play a role in that? Absolutely not, they can go fuck themselves.
Incels, white supremacists, Islamist terrorists, all of them are much of a muchness. A big hug, a cup of tea, and a good listen won't instantly turn them into good people. But empathy is important, because it allows us to understand how they became that way and take steps to prevent it. They weren't born that way, any of them. What they think turned them that way isn't true, but something still turned them that way. Incels seem particularly ripe for intensive therapy at about the 13-18 age group to help them.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
Because it is really feeling like there's two camps here: One wants to have members of a terrorist suicide rape cult see the light and leave said terrorist suicide rape cult, to the point of ending that terrorist suicide rape cult.
The other, I dunno? I feel like there's some bullshitting about what people actually want done with incels, if trying to reform them isn't on the menu. I'd prefer there be no bullshit so we can stop pretending we have the same goals.
Just because I want no part in reforming them myself doesn't mean I think we should be slaughtering manbabies en masse. These are people that literally have everything going for them. They tend to be white, relatively affluent, young men - which is like winning the lottery in Western society. They deserve no more of our resources or energy considering the highly patriarchal we're already living in.
Do I hope they manage to fix themselves eventually? Absolutely. Do I want to play a role in that? Absolutely not, they can go fuck themselves.
That's a pretty grotesque way to approach human suffering.
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MeeqeLord of the pants most fancySomeplace amazingRegistered Userregular
Not every depressed dude who has self image issues surrounding their sexuality in an incel. Being an incel requires a community and buy in, most of the tactics I'm seeing relate to dismantling either the community (deplatforming being an example) or fighting the buy in ("Hey depressed dude! Here's some support, pills and tools to cope!"). However. Once someone has found said community and bought in, there may be nothing left except punishment if they commit crimes. We can't save everyone and while I firmly think the goal of preventing more incels is a great and noble good, there is a limit I'm willing to go to to save someone from themselves, especially since it seems like most of these people, once blackpilled or whatever they call mental buy in, don't want out. They just want to stop suffering by any means necessary. Depression, especially encouraged depression, is a hell of a thing.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
How widespread are those beliefs? I was under the impression those were the rare-ish extremists. Most incels are sad and bitter and use the community of other incels to not feel quite as alone while reinforcing the idea their problems aren't their fault.
If you're okay with being on a forum where fantasize about being the next Elliot Rodgers, then you're part of the problem, even if you're not personally engaging in those fantasies.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Also, there seems to be an assumption that this shit is new, when it's just a natural extension of PUA bullshit and so on.
I mean, these were the kind of people Margaret Atwood was writing about. Just because they are slightly more ambivalent about Jesus doesn't make them less dangerous.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Incels, white supremacists, Islamist terrorists, all of them are much of a muchness. A big hug, a cup of tea, and a good listen won't instantly turn them into good people. But empathy is important, because it allows us to understand how they became that way and take steps to prevent it. They weren't born that way, any of them. What they think turned them that way isn't true, but something still turned them that way. Incels seem particularly ripe for intensive therapy at about the 13-18 age group to help them.
It's clear to me that there is a small set of extremists and a large pool of disaffected people that are having members siphoned into the former group (this applies to any kind of extremist). The extremists hold viewpoints that overlap partially with the larger pool, which makes them sympathetic. It is a problem that the extreme positions result in blowback that snuffs any concern for the initially disaffected group. Part of the solution will involve at least understanding the pain that makes people vulnerable towards being polarized. The pain that that understanding (and perhaps empathy) are pointed towards is necessarily going to be a key part of what is being addressed by extremists, as it's the catalyst for the entire process. The best chance for any intervention has to acknowledge the pain, at least what is felt by the initial pool, regardless of whether or not that's really fair in the grand scheme of things.
Do I hope they manage to fix themselves eventually? Absolutely. Do I want to play a role in that? Absolutely not, they can go fuck themselves.
More importantly, even if you were willing to play a role, the incels would reject your help.
Which is why I asked earlier for people to post their success stories dealing with incels before criticizing others of not doing the same.
Also, helping out a socially awkward lonely male is not the same as helping an incel. Being an incel means crossing a moral threshold where you no longer view women as people.
There are a few things that come to mind when I think about the idea of "reaching out to incels"
1. Empathy is not a zero sum game, one can have empathy for a group of people without taking away from anyone else and, crucially, without saying "what you are doing is ok". I can have empathy for Stalin if I want to try to understand what caused him to become the monster that he did, that doesn't provide any excuse for his actions. Saying that any given group is unworthy of someone else's empathy is a poor use of time, their empathy is not yours to spend
2. If you expect women to feel empathy, let alone sympathy, for people who say that they are disgusting cattle who should be raped and/or murdered, you are a fool. People who are unaffected by the hatred of incels and the societal poison they represent should refrain from sniffing their own farts; It's far more easy to be empathetic when you don't have skin in the game.
3. That said, I don't see what things like inceltears are supposed to achieve other than providing an outlet for spite. Just go and do something else with your time, the idea that mockery is helping someone, somehow, is just an excuse for being a shithead. Being a shithead feels great! That's why people do it! That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, let alone a moral and noble stand against The Baddies.
4. Most people, even if they want to, are not qualified or able to make a meaningful intervention in these lives. The Vice article on incels speaks of a member of an incel group who repeatedly (ie daily) shit himself for attention. He also speaks of constantly urinating in the corner of his room in order to upset his parents. I'm not a doctor, but I think you would find it hard to find a mental health professional who would not say that this is a sign of pretty serious mental illness and I would intuit that intervention on the level of full time care is probably required. This individual eventually killed themselves, because, astonishingly, it turned out that the person who regularly shit themselves to impress their friends was in the grips of deep despair. Even if this person received the immediate medical intervention that was required, psychiatric medicine is not always able to achieve perfect outcomes. His life might not have been saved, even in the best approximation we have of perfect circumstances (and I would bet a paycheck that his parents had been attempting mental health interventions for decades). If you think that you could achieve a better result, you are wrong.
5. I am not a doctor, but I also suspect that in a clinical context most incel rhetoric and behaviour would not be seen as a terrifying new threat but would instead be sorted into existing categories such as, for instance, paranoid delusions. I don't think we should see Incels as a new thing, but rather as a group of people with mild to severe mental illness who are enabling each other. Maybe keep in mind when you're doing your Really Good Incel Joke that there's every reason to believe that you're making fun of someone who is wracked with mental illness.
In this paragraph I am still not a doctor, but I've dealt with mentally ill people in an online context for over a decade, including incels and their protogenic forms. One of the things you have to get over pretty quickly is the idea that, as Some Guy, you're going to help mentally ill people in any real sense. The responsible thing to do is to admit to both yourself and them that you're unable to help, and attempt to get them to seek someone that can. This requires both a switching off of natural human empathy ("I should lend an ear to this person, who is distressed") and natural human ego ("I can help this person with my smart good knowledge"). That's why if you try and provide mental health support on the forums, we literally won't let you do it. On the occasions where Registered Brain Geniuses have decided they're going to provide mental health support over PMs, they have invariably gotten in over their head and ended up tapping out, causing more damage than if they'd just shut the fuck up in the first place.
I guess my TLDR is: empathy is important and worthwhile, not everyone should be expected to show it and it is not, in itself, going to solve anything.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
It's explained right there in my post.
I don't see there's anything materially different about wanting women to be subservient and wanting everyone who isn't white to be in so far as people who hold those beliefs can be redeemed.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
Because it is really feeling like there's two camps here: One wants to have members of a terrorist suicide rape cult see the light and leave said terrorist suicide rape cult, to the point of ending that terrorist suicide rape cult.
The other, I dunno? I feel like there's some bullshitting about what people actually want done with incels, if trying to reform them isn't on the menu. I'd prefer there be no bullshit so we can stop pretending we have the same goals.
Just because I want no part in reforming them myself doesn't mean I think we should be slaughtering manbabies en masse. These are people that literally have everything going for them. They tend to be white, relatively affluent, young men - which is like winning the lottery in Western society. They deserve no more of our resources or energy considering the highly patriarchal we're already living in.
Do I hope they manage to fix themselves eventually? Absolutely. Do I want to play a role in that? Absolutely not, they can go fuck themselves.
That's a pretty grotesque way to approach human suffering.
Why? There are options for them and I support those options. I'm not without empathy for those people, I just don't think they deserve anybody's benefit of the doubt. Nor do I think these people are oftentimes exactly suffering.
As has been asked above in the thread, please elaborate on the great lengths you've gone to help these people otherwise kindly remove yourself from your very tall horse.
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AuralynxDarkness is a perspectiveWatching the ego workRegistered Userregular
5. I am not a doctor, but I also suspect that in a clinical context most incel rhetoric and behaviour would not be seen as a terrifying new threat but would instead be sorted into existing categories such as, for instance, paranoid delusions. I don't think we should see Incels as a new thing, but rather as a group of people with mild to severe mental illness who are enabling each other. Maybe keep in mind when you're doing your Really Good Incel Joke that there's every reason to believe that you're making fun of someone who is wracked with mental illness.
I, too, am not a doctor, but this point in particular is a really good one to keep in mind as far as contextualizing the phenomenon.
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
How widespread are those beliefs? I was under the impression those were the rare-ish extremists. Most incels are sad and bitter and use the community of other incels to not feel quite as alone while reinforcing the idea their problems aren't their fault.
If you're okay with being on a forum where fantasize about being the next Elliot Rodgers, then you're part of the problem, even if you're not personally engaging in those fantasies.
How widespread are those beliefs? I was under the impression those were the rare-ish extremists. Most incels are sad and bitter and use the community of other incels to not feel quite as alone while reinforcing the idea their problems aren't their fault.
If you're okay with being on a forum where fantasize about being the next Elliot Rodgers, then you're part of the problem, even if you're not personally engaging in those fantasies.
Yes of course. Which is what I'm arguing.
I just don't agree that every one of them is unreachable or even hold the most extreme opinions.
"These people cannot be saved" is about the laziest moral attitude imaginable. That's not the same as saying "I am not going to spend my personal time on earth attempting to save them".
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
2. If you expect women to feel empathy, let alone sympathy, for people who say that they are disgusting cattle who should be raped and/or murdered, you are a fool. People who are unaffected by the hatred of incels and the societal poison they represent should refrain from sniffing their own farts; It's far more easy to be empathetic when you don't have skin in the game.
This is kind of where I'm at.
I've had run-ins with incel-type-people for quite a few years. One incident I described earlier happened to someone I still consider a friend. One guy threatened to cut my throat because he was being excessively aggressive with another soldier who wouldn't date him (I was their supervisor so I had to intervene).
Numerous other little things have happened through my life.
I am nowhere near where women who get latched on to by an incel are at, but I've watched these obsessive and desperate behaviors really crush people and I am unable to provide even empathy towards them.
Even with the knowledge that many are probably suffering mental illness (I also am in therapy for depression and anxiety), and my previous line of work probably exposed me to a greater ratio of those with mental illness than the general population, it does not help my attitude towards these people.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
Because it is really feeling like there's two camps here: One wants to have members of a terrorist suicide rape cult see the light and leave said terrorist suicide rape cult, to the point of ending that terrorist suicide rape cult.
The other, I dunno? I feel like there's some bullshitting about what people actually want done with incels, if trying to reform them isn't on the menu. I'd prefer there be no bullshit so we can stop pretending we have the same goals.
Just because I want no part in reforming them myself doesn't mean I think we should be slaughtering manbabies en masse. These are people that literally have everything going for them. They tend to be white, relatively affluent, young men - which is like winning the lottery in Western society. They deserve no more of our resources or energy considering the highly patriarchal we're already living in.
Do I hope they manage to fix themselves eventually? Absolutely. Do I want to play a role in that? Absolutely not, they can go fuck themselves.
But do you think anyone should play a role in that? At all? People don't usually just walk out of cults on their own, it takes a lot. One of the first things cults do is have you erase every avenue back as much as possible, so you can't convince yourself to come back out. I'm not suggesting that you jump into an incel forum and try to talk some people out of it. Or that you go to an incel you know and try to convince them they're wrong. If someone was adequately qualified to try, would you support that effort, or is it not worth the resource? And if it's not worth the resource, what do you recommend happen instead?
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
Because it is really feeling like there's two camps here: One wants to have members of a terrorist suicide rape cult see the light and leave said terrorist suicide rape cult, to the point of ending that terrorist suicide rape cult.
The other, I dunno? I feel like there's some bullshitting about what people actually want done with incels, if trying to reform them isn't on the menu. I'd prefer there be no bullshit so we can stop pretending we have the same goals.
Just because I want no part in reforming them myself doesn't mean I think we should be slaughtering manbabies en masse. These are people that literally have everything going for them. They tend to be white, relatively affluent, young men - which is like winning the lottery in Western society. They deserve no more of our resources or energy considering the highly patriarchal we're already living in.
Do I hope they manage to fix themselves eventually? Absolutely. Do I want to play a role in that? Absolutely not, they can go fuck themselves.
But do you think anyone should play a role in that? At all? People don't usually just walk out of cults on their own, it takes a lot. One of the first things cults do is have you erase every avenue back as much as possible, so you can't convince yourself to come back out. I'm not suggesting that you jump into an incel forum and try to talk some people out of it. Or that you go to an incel you know and try to convince them they're wrong. If someone was adequately qualified to try, would you support that effort, or is it not worth the resource? And if it's not worth the resource, what do you recommend happen instead?
Most people that leave cults end up doing it of their own recognizance.
As I stated above, there are mental health resources available to these people - it's up to them to avail themselves of it.
I'm not sure what kind of role you're talking about where someone would embed into a community of incels in hopes of extricating people. I personally can't see that ever working as those people would be excommunicated from the group right away.
If it's a mental health issue then we leverage mental health resources to help these people. If it's not and they're just assholes then they aren't going to change unless they decide to change themselves - in which case if they come asking for help we can give it.
I think it’s possible to have empathy, be open to the idea of de-conversion, and believe that de-conversion is unlikely and damage mitigation should be the primary focus.
And any de-conversion must include an utter delegirimization of their views to make them less appealing, which is going to feed the persecution complex of some.
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Yes, there are gradations and such. I mostly just think the suggestion that having sympathy is impossible unless you're distanced (and the implication that having it may be negative) is short sighted.
It's because they have tried, repeatedly, and it always ends the same way.
I don't really believe in that, by which I mean the negative connotations. As long as you recognize the reason you are doing things and the things you are feeling, and they honestly fit within your moral paradigm, you can engage in almost anything without being poisoned
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The difference between incels and cults is that most cultists don't start out as Internet trolls. Trolling is all about turning honest conversations sour for lols, so they are already armed with the tools they need to resist genuine attempts to reach out.
A friend of my ex-wife's got incel'd by a guy who she considered a friend and nothing else.
His last words before blowing his brains out right in front of her were "you're a fucking friendzoning bitch and this is your fault."
No, incels do not deserve a fucking iota of my pity. She is mentally destroyed, probably for life, because she wouldn't fuck some dude.
No, they don't deserve it. And she didn't deserve what he did to her.
And if life was about people getting what they deserve, this conversation would never need take place.
Are you suggesting I have no empathy for any other set of people I don't think are traditionally "good" because I have a fervent, deep seated, primal disgust with incels?
I'm not making any assertions about your personality morality. I certainly don't know you well enough. But there has been a common topic through the thread about who deserves empathy and that's my two cents.
Gotcha.
My personal experiences color my outlook towards them, I am well aware. But I simply cannot muster sympathy for the devil in this case.
I see them no differently than white supremacists, of which I have a nearly identical outlook.
I don't think there are really any devils. Just victims inflicting their own pain on others making more victims.
You obviously can't condone immoral actions, and I can understand that the particulars of a given situation can make something personally more difficult. Like I said, I don't know you well enough to pass any kind of judgement.
In my view "they did this heinous thing, they don't deserve sympathy/empathy" as cousin to "they did this heinous thing, they don't deserve to live".
Because it is really feeling like there's two camps here: One wants to have members of a terrorist suicide rape cult see the light and leave said terrorist suicide rape cult, to the point of ending that terrorist suicide rape cult.
The other, I dunno? I feel like there's some bullshitting about what people actually want done with incels, if trying to reform them isn't on the menu. I'd prefer there be no bullshit so we can stop pretending we have the same goals.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Its not a cousin to it. It's a brother.
It's barely unspoken that these people are irredeemable and therefore they need to go away.
Go away and not harm anyone in the future mind you. Which means prison or death so let's say that part if that's what you mean.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
They advocate for the murder of not only women, but men AND minority men? And then the sexual enslavement of women and ritual genital disfigurement of Chads and Tyrones.
They're like white supremacists evolved.
Furthermore, they've managed to create an image that obscures how dangerous and violent they are.
Well, terms matter. Incel as a philosophy has nothing to do with someone being sexually unfulfilled. This thread has already discussed that a bunch. It's more about how they see themselves versus others they've deemed 'less' than them. Which is the same as white supremacy. Like, racists believe their ethnic heritage gives them ownership over others. Likewise, Incels believe their status as 'undesirable' males gives them ownership over others.
If you're conflating the Incel philosophy with men who can't get a date, you're barking up the wrong tree. And the more this thread goes on, the more I realize how fundamentally different the two are. The problem is that Incel is recruiting from that pool, saying they can help, that things will get better if they 'bend the knee' so to speak. White supremacists recruit much the same, speaking out to disaffected white people who are receptive to the message that their lives are supposed to be better, if it weren't for the 'others'. It's an insidious thing, to take advantage of people's wish for something better by saying it should be, that someone out there is actively working against them. It appeals to a lot of base human motives and emotions, including pride and blame.
How widespread are those beliefs? I was under the impression those were the rare-ish extremists. Most incels are sad and bitter and use the community of other incels to not feel quite as alone while reinforcing the idea their problems aren't their fault.
Just because I want no part in reforming them myself doesn't mean I think we should be slaughtering manbabies en masse. These are people that literally have everything going for them. They tend to be white, relatively affluent, young men - which is like winning the lottery in Western society. They deserve no more of our resources or energy considering the highly patriarchal society we're already living in.
Do I hope they manage to fix themselves eventually? Absolutely. Do I want to play a role in that? Absolutely not, they can go fuck themselves.
That's a pretty grotesque way to approach human suffering.
It's explained right there in my post.
If you're okay with being on a forum where fantasize about being the next Elliot Rodgers, then you're part of the problem, even if you're not personally engaging in those fantasies.
I mean, these were the kind of people Margaret Atwood was writing about. Just because they are slightly more ambivalent about Jesus doesn't make them less dangerous.
It's clear to me that there is a small set of extremists and a large pool of disaffected people that are having members siphoned into the former group (this applies to any kind of extremist). The extremists hold viewpoints that overlap partially with the larger pool, which makes them sympathetic. It is a problem that the extreme positions result in blowback that snuffs any concern for the initially disaffected group. Part of the solution will involve at least understanding the pain that makes people vulnerable towards being polarized. The pain that that understanding (and perhaps empathy) are pointed towards is necessarily going to be a key part of what is being addressed by extremists, as it's the catalyst for the entire process. The best chance for any intervention has to acknowledge the pain, at least what is felt by the initial pool, regardless of whether or not that's really fair in the grand scheme of things.
More importantly, even if you were willing to play a role, the incels would reject your help.
Which is why I asked earlier for people to post their success stories dealing with incels before criticizing others of not doing the same.
Also, helping out a socially awkward lonely male is not the same as helping an incel. Being an incel means crossing a moral threshold where you no longer view women as people.
1. Empathy is not a zero sum game, one can have empathy for a group of people without taking away from anyone else and, crucially, without saying "what you are doing is ok". I can have empathy for Stalin if I want to try to understand what caused him to become the monster that he did, that doesn't provide any excuse for his actions. Saying that any given group is unworthy of someone else's empathy is a poor use of time, their empathy is not yours to spend
2. If you expect women to feel empathy, let alone sympathy, for people who say that they are disgusting cattle who should be raped and/or murdered, you are a fool. People who are unaffected by the hatred of incels and the societal poison they represent should refrain from sniffing their own farts; It's far more easy to be empathetic when you don't have skin in the game.
3. That said, I don't see what things like inceltears are supposed to achieve other than providing an outlet for spite. Just go and do something else with your time, the idea that mockery is helping someone, somehow, is just an excuse for being a shithead. Being a shithead feels great! That's why people do it! That doesn't mean it's the right thing to do, let alone a moral and noble stand against The Baddies.
4. Most people, even if they want to, are not qualified or able to make a meaningful intervention in these lives. The Vice article on incels speaks of a member of an incel group who repeatedly (ie daily) shit himself for attention. He also speaks of constantly urinating in the corner of his room in order to upset his parents. I'm not a doctor, but I think you would find it hard to find a mental health professional who would not say that this is a sign of pretty serious mental illness and I would intuit that intervention on the level of full time care is probably required. This individual eventually killed themselves, because, astonishingly, it turned out that the person who regularly shit themselves to impress their friends was in the grips of deep despair. Even if this person received the immediate medical intervention that was required, psychiatric medicine is not always able to achieve perfect outcomes. His life might not have been saved, even in the best approximation we have of perfect circumstances (and I would bet a paycheck that his parents had been attempting mental health interventions for decades). If you think that you could achieve a better result, you are wrong.
5. I am not a doctor, but I also suspect that in a clinical context most incel rhetoric and behaviour would not be seen as a terrifying new threat but would instead be sorted into existing categories such as, for instance, paranoid delusions. I don't think we should see Incels as a new thing, but rather as a group of people with mild to severe mental illness who are enabling each other. Maybe keep in mind when you're doing your Really Good Incel Joke that there's every reason to believe that you're making fun of someone who is wracked with mental illness.
In this paragraph I am still not a doctor, but I've dealt with mentally ill people in an online context for over a decade, including incels and their protogenic forms. One of the things you have to get over pretty quickly is the idea that, as Some Guy, you're going to help mentally ill people in any real sense. The responsible thing to do is to admit to both yourself and them that you're unable to help, and attempt to get them to seek someone that can. This requires both a switching off of natural human empathy ("I should lend an ear to this person, who is distressed") and natural human ego ("I can help this person with my smart good knowledge"). That's why if you try and provide mental health support on the forums, we literally won't let you do it. On the occasions where Registered Brain Geniuses have decided they're going to provide mental health support over PMs, they have invariably gotten in over their head and ended up tapping out, causing more damage than if they'd just shut the fuck up in the first place.
I guess my TLDR is: empathy is important and worthwhile, not everyone should be expected to show it and it is not, in itself, going to solve anything.
I don't see there's anything materially different about wanting women to be subservient and wanting everyone who isn't white to be in so far as people who hold those beliefs can be redeemed.
Why? There are options for them and I support those options. I'm not without empathy for those people, I just don't think they deserve anybody's benefit of the doubt. Nor do I think these people are oftentimes exactly suffering.
As has been asked above in the thread, please elaborate on the great lengths you've gone to help these people otherwise kindly remove yourself from your very tall horse.
I, too, am not a doctor, but this point in particular is a really good one to keep in mind as far as contextualizing the phenomenon.
you in fact give cover to those that do engage
Yes of course. Which is what I'm arguing.
I just don't agree that every one of them is unreachable or even hold the most extreme opinions.
This is kind of where I'm at.
I've had run-ins with incel-type-people for quite a few years. One incident I described earlier happened to someone I still consider a friend. One guy threatened to cut my throat because he was being excessively aggressive with another soldier who wouldn't date him (I was their supervisor so I had to intervene).
Numerous other little things have happened through my life.
I am nowhere near where women who get latched on to by an incel are at, but I've watched these obsessive and desperate behaviors really crush people and I am unable to provide even empathy towards them.
Even with the knowledge that many are probably suffering mental illness (I also am in therapy for depression and anxiety), and my previous line of work probably exposed me to a greater ratio of those with mental illness than the general population, it does not help my attitude towards these people.
But do you think anyone should play a role in that? At all? People don't usually just walk out of cults on their own, it takes a lot. One of the first things cults do is have you erase every avenue back as much as possible, so you can't convince yourself to come back out. I'm not suggesting that you jump into an incel forum and try to talk some people out of it. Or that you go to an incel you know and try to convince them they're wrong. If someone was adequately qualified to try, would you support that effort, or is it not worth the resource? And if it's not worth the resource, what do you recommend happen instead?
Most people that leave cults end up doing it of their own recognizance.
As I stated above, there are mental health resources available to these people - it's up to them to avail themselves of it.
I'm not sure what kind of role you're talking about where someone would embed into a community of incels in hopes of extricating people. I personally can't see that ever working as those people would be excommunicated from the group right away.
If it's a mental health issue then we leverage mental health resources to help these people. If it's not and they're just assholes then they aren't going to change unless they decide to change themselves - in which case if they come asking for help we can give it.
And any de-conversion must include an utter delegirimization of their views to make them less appealing, which is going to feed the persecution complex of some.