ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
I don't see there's anything materially different about wanting women to be subservient and wanting everyone who isn't white to be in so far as people who hold those beliefs can be redeemed.
Because racism runs a much wider spectrum, ranging from microaggression to full blown Nazi's.
For instance, there's a cosplayer a while back who was good friends with George Perez, to the extent that George Perez actually used her as the model for a reboot of "Supergirl." Her cosplay career came to an end when she was filmed at a Nazi rally while her boyfriend was shouting "Jews will not replace us." Up until that point, a lot of her friends were completely unaware of her white nationalist sympathies.
Likewise, plenty of white nationalists will mention having "black friends." Many of them will preach a "separate but equal" segregation, and some of them will actually believe it. You'll have white nationalists who deny they hate black people.
Is there an equivalent of this in the incel community? Nope.
Because the problem with incels isn't simply their inability to form romantic relationships. It's their inability to form healthy relationships at all. Even the relationships between incels are incredibly toxic.
Male incels have no equivalent of "I have a black friend." More importantly, even if a woman offered to be a friend, they would actively reject it unless she's also willing to have sex with them (and if she is willing to have sex with them, she also needs to be a chaste virgin). They don't even get along with female incels, and the female incels (who are an entirely different community with an entirely different dynamic) want nothing to do with them. If female incels can't get along with male incels, then the problem isn't a lack of empathy. The problem is toxic behavior.
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Do we think there's something unique about being a depressed sexually unfulfilled misogynist that makes someone less redeemable than a white nationalist?
Because it is really feeling like there's two camps here: One wants to have members of a terrorist suicide rape cult see the light and leave said terrorist suicide rape cult, to the point of ending that terrorist suicide rape cult.
The other, I dunno? I feel like there's some bullshitting about what people actually want done with incels, if trying to reform them isn't on the menu. I'd prefer there be no bullshit so we can stop pretending we have the same goals.
Just because I want no part in reforming them myself doesn't mean I think we should be slaughtering manbabies en masse. These are people that literally have everything going for them. They tend to be white, relatively affluent, young men - which is like winning the lottery in Western society. They deserve no more of our resources or energy considering the highly patriarchal we're already living in.
Do I hope they manage to fix themselves eventually? Absolutely. Do I want to play a role in that? Absolutely not, they can go fuck themselves.
But do you think anyone should play a role in that? At all? People don't usually just walk out of cults on their own, it takes a lot. One of the first things cults do is have you erase every avenue back as much as possible, so you can't convince yourself to come back out. I'm not suggesting that you jump into an incel forum and try to talk some people out of it. Or that you go to an incel you know and try to convince them they're wrong. If someone was adequately qualified to try, would you support that effort, or is it not worth the resource? And if it's not worth the resource, what do you recommend happen instead?
Saying "Mentally ill people should only be helped if they are sympathetic" is roughly equivalent to saying "Mentally ill people should not be helped". Almost no one would say the second statement, in abstract, but many people end up saying it in a practical sense.
I have had many people who have negatively impacted my life due to their own mental illness. I hope they get the help they need and become healthy, and also that they leave me the fuck alone, forever, because the mitigating factor of their illness does not erase their effect on my life.
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
You're making a bit of a jump here. Those of us outside looking in trying to empathize and understand what they're going through and feeling don't come to the same conclusions as the group itself does.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
The removal of toxic masculine culture is probably the only way to mitigate this stuff.
It still won't eliminate it wholly. People are always going to feel jaded and need to blame others for things, imagined or not. But it will go a long way towards minimizing its effect.
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
I mean, is it propaganda if it's true? It's not like people are making up feelings of isolation. I dislike analogies, but if we are going to do the white nationalist one, I'm saying "people are worried about job security." Yes, that's* what white nationalism appeals to, but it's not as though they're making it up whole cloth, or people are actually feeling totally economically secure.
*I don't think it is, but going with this narrative
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
You're making a bit of a jump here. Those of us outside looking in trying to empathize and understand what they're going through and feeling don't come to the same conclusions as the group itself does.
I am specifically paying attention as I have 2 boys I do not want them falling into this crowd. As a young I was very close to incel ideology. I hadn't made the leap yet that is was all someone else's fault yet tho. So the limit of my expression was dropping out and running away with a little bit if suicidal ideation. Then I basically recovered left to my own devices.
But there was no established community at that time to ensnare me.
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
I mean, is it propaganda if it's true? It's not like people are making up feelings of isolation. I dislike analogies, but if we are going to do the white nationalist one, I'm saying "people are worried about job security." Yes, that's* what white nationalism appeals to, but it's not as though they're making it up whole cloth, or people are actually feeling totally economically secure.
*I don't think it is, but going with this narrative
Yes, it can still be propaganda, even if it’s a partial but misleading truth.
Many of them were raised in caring and emotionally supportive environments. Many of them are traditionally attractive and would have minimal barriers to some sort of romantic interaction. Many of them have broad social networks and people to consider close friends.
It’s at least as much about untreated mental illness and violent male entitlement as it is the pain of isolation. Understanding them requires understanding that.
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
You're making a bit of a jump here. Those of us outside looking in trying to empathize and understand what they're going through and feeling don't come to the same conclusions as the group itself does.
That's because you're not an incel. The acknowledgement and emphasis of those feelings is absolutely something they use as a recruitment tactic. Further to that they're also offering a support group for people feeling those emotions - just incredibly misguiding and damaging support.
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
I mean, is it propaganda if it's true? It's not like people are making up feelings of isolation. I dislike analogies, but if we are going to do the white nationalist one, I'm saying "people are worried about job security." Yes, that's* what white nationalism appeals to, but it's not as though they're making it up whole cloth, or people are actually feeling totally economically secure.
*I don't think it is, but going with this narrative
Yes, it can still be propaganda, even if it’s a partial but misleading truth.
Many of them were raised in caring and emotionally supportive environments. Many of them are traditionally attractive and would have minimal barriers to some sort of romantic interaction. Many of them have broad social networks and people to consider close friends.
It’s at least as much about untreated mental illness and violent male entitlement as it is the pain of isolation. Understanding them requires understanding that.
Right, so we have (reduced)
1) people are feeling the pain of isolation
2) and are taught violent entitlement
3) so they react via radicalization
4) and end up killing people
I am saying that a lot of people are discounting 1) as either a place to intervene or even as a real thing. Even here, as we clinically discuss this. The focus is on 2) (important) and 4) (too late). 2 is certainly an easier place to intervene, because it's trivial to say violence is bad, and righteous to fight against it (and you get to be angry at things!), but I think that 1) is actually very important too, and worth considering both because it's a point of intervention and because it's categorically good to alleviate suffering.
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
You're making a bit of a jump here. Those of us outside looking in trying to empathize and understand what they're going through and feeling don't come to the same conclusions as the group itself does.
That's because you're not an incel. The acknowledgement and emphasis of those feelings is absolutely something they use as a recruitment tactic. Further to that they're also offering a support group for people feeling those emotions - just incredibly misguiding and damaging support.
That is precisely why we should try and support people suffering those emotions.
I'm not saying we shouldn't. Granted, I don't really agree with the assertion that being an incel means having a mental illness.
These are people that have made a choice to join a group that actively hates women and thinks they should be subjugated. That decision deserves no sympathy. If they made that decision to join said group (in lieu of seeking real help) then fine, treat the illness but do not ignore the decision they made.
I hope this doesn't seems like I'm trying to make this all about me, but I have to ask; I used to have some pretty fucked up views (see my big post last page). It took me a while, but I got better. Now, I never really gave voice to my feelings back then, so I didn't really expose myself to condemnation, but if I had, do you feel that any condemnation I might have received (justified though it might have been) would have had any impact on my eventual recovery? Is that even a consideration?
I already knew I was a sick fuck. That's why I hated myself and what eventually got me to try and work out my issues. I'm of a feeling that if I had a group of people out there reminding me just what kind of sick fuck I was that that would have had a non-zero chance of me going "you wanna see a sick fuck, fine I'll show you a sick fuck!". To hear some of you here say it, that would have been no less than I deserve, and the man, husband and father I am today would not exist. Am I somehow the exception to the rule? Is there something different about me?
I don't think people are advocating attempting incel deconversion, just empathy for the situation of feeling like romance and sex are important, you are locked out, you don't understand why, and you've been trained basically from birth to show no feelings, require no emotional support, and the million other things that go into toxic masculinity. Inceldom is not separable from the gross cultural environment we all live in, and are all exposed to. It grows from legitimate pain with no acceptable outlet, and as far as I can tell, no one has a solution. People should either suck it up and be a man, or suck it up because they're already so privileged that empathy is wasted on them. From that position, it's easy to see the appeal of someone saying that your problems are all someone else's fault and are inescapable. That is the road to reprehensible things. But I don't think we should forget that it starts with problems that people feel unsupported in.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
I mean, is it propaganda if it's true? It's not like people are making up feelings of isolation. I dislike analogies, but if we are going to do the white nationalist one, I'm saying "people are worried about job security." Yes, that's* what white nationalism appeals to, but it's not as though they're making it up whole cloth, or people are actually feeling totally economically secure.
*I don't think it is, but going with this narrative
Yes, it can still be propaganda, even if it’s a partial but misleading truth.
Many of them were raised in caring and emotionally supportive environments. Many of them are traditionally attractive and would have minimal barriers to some sort of romantic interaction. Many of them have broad social networks and people to consider close friends.
It’s at least as much about untreated mental illness and violent male entitlement as it is the pain of isolation. Understanding them requires understanding that.
Right, so we have (reduced)
1) people are feeling the pain of isolation
2) and are taught violent entitlement
3) so they react via radicalization
4) and end up killing people
I am saying that a lot of people are discounting 1) as either a place to intervene or even as a real thing. Even here, as we clinically discuss this. The focus is on 2) (important) and 4) (too late). 2 is certainly an easier place to intervene, because it's trivial to say violence is bad, and righteous to fight against it (and you get to be angry at things!), but I think that 1) is actually very important too, and worth considering both because it's a point of intervention and because it's categorically good to alleviate suffering.
I disagree with that chart entirely. That’s precisely the kind of oversimplification that leads to misunderstanding them. And it’s a very tempting explanation because it seems so neat and logical, and many of us can relate to the first bullet point.
Sometimes the feelings of loneliness are created as a displacement of the frustration of unfulfilled entitlement. Sometimes they are performative to be a part of a culture that encourages the violence they crave.
It’s really not as simple as “they were very sad and couldn’t find a healthy outlet so they chose a bad one.”
I'm not saying we shouldn't. Granted, I don't really agree with the assertion that being an incel means having a mental illness.
These are people that have made a choice to join a group that actively hates women and thinks they should be subjugated. That decision deserves no sympathy. If they made that decision to join said group (in lieu of seeking real help) then fine, treat the illness but do not ignore the decision they made.
What is an incel tends to be a bit of a moving target in this thread but an inability to form healthy relationships seems to be a general component and whether that rises to the level of a mental health issue or not its certainly meriting treatment.
Either way, no one is asking anyone to sympathize with their choice to join up with bad people, just the pain and discontent that got them to that point.
I don't see there's anything materially different about wanting women to be subservient and wanting everyone who isn't white to be in so far as people who hold those beliefs can be redeemed.
Because racism runs a much wider spectrum, ranging from microaggression to full blown Nazi's.
For instance, there's a cosplayer a while back who was good friends with George Perez, to the extent that George Perez actually used her as the model for a reboot of "Supergirl." Her cosplay career came to an end when she was filmed at a Nazi rally while her boyfriend was shouting "Jews will not replace us." Up until that point, a lot of her friends were completely unaware of her white nationalist sympathies.
Likewise, plenty of white nationalists will mention having "black friends." Many of them will preach a "separate but equal" segregation, and some of them will actually believe it. You'll have white nationalists who deny they hate black people.
Is there an equivalent of this in the incel community? Nope.
Because the problem with incels isn't simply their inability to form romantic relationships. It's their inability to form healthy relationships at all. Even the relationships between incels are incredibly toxic.
Male incels have no equivalent of "I have a black friend." More importantly, even if a woman offered to be a friend, they would actively reject it unless she's also willing to have sex with them (and if she is willing to have sex with them, she also needs to be a chaste virgin). They don't even get along with female incels, and the female incels (who are an entirely different community with an entirely different dynamic) want nothing to do with them. If female incels can't get along with male incels, then the problem isn't a lack of empathy. The problem is toxic behavior.
This isn’t the first time I’ve seen the bolded said, in various forms, and I’m confused as to where this comes from. Again, I waded into the r/incel community, as a lurker, just trying to understand where these people were coming from. It was a much different experience than what I’d seen based on r/inceltears or r/niceguys and the like.
This idea that every...last...incel is advocating rape camps and cutting off the dick of every attractive or black guy is just something that is outside of what I personally saw. Yes, those particularly horrifying extremes were there, and were not entirely uncommon. But there were also just some sad, dysfunctional people who hadn’t gotten entirely to the bottom of the hate spiral yet. I’m not sure *all* of them do. I would argue that you do see some subgroups, all with their equally stupid names (copecels, gymcels, etc) who may be trying to find a path that’s at least marginally less horrifying.
Those may or may not, I would say, qualify as your “I have a black friend” or “I’m a separatist, not a supremacist” gradiations in the community.
I'm not saying we shouldn't. Granted, I don't really agree with the assertion that being an incel means having a mental illness.
These are people that have made a choice to join a group that actively hates women and thinks they should be subjugated. That decision deserves no sympathy. If they made that decision to join said group (in lieu of seeking real help) then fine, treat the illness but do not ignore the decision they made.
There is also a limit to how much we owe other people. We are not responsible for their actions by virtue of failing to be above and beyond supportive. Especially when their go to response towards attempts at support is abuse.
We should also distinguish between Incels as individuals and Incels as a community. Individuals might get some benefit of the doubt, but giving the Community as a whole anything but scorn is counterproductive.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
This isn’t the first time I’ve seen the bolded said, in various forms, and I’m confused as to where this comes from. Again, I waded into the r/incel community, as a lurker, just trying to understand where these people were coming from. It was a much different experience than what I’d seen based on r/inceltears or r/niceguys and the like.
This idea that every...last...incel is advocating rape camps and cutting off the dick of every attractive or black guy is just something that is outside of what I personally saw. Yes, those particularly horrifying extremes were there, and were not entirely uncommon. But there were also just some sad, dysfunctional people who hadn’t gotten entirely to the bottom of the hate spiral yet. I’m not sure *all* of them do. I would argue that you do see some subgroups, all with their equally stupid names (copecels, gymcels, etc) who may be trying to find a path that’s at least marginally less horrifying.
Those may or may not, I would say, qualify as your “I have a black friend” or “I’m a separatist, not a supremacist” gradiations in the community.
How many incels did you see talking about their positive platonic relationships with women? Moms, sisters, friends, co-workers, etc.?
Heck, how many incels did you see expressing solidarity with female incels?
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I don't carry a lot of my Catholic origins around with me anymore, but one thing that's stuck with me is the idea that your empathy is a lie if it only extends to good people.
If you're going to lecture people about their failures to reach out to incels, then perhaps you could share some of your own success stories with us?
Lack of empathy isn't the problem here. We understand the mindset perfectly well. We simply don't agree because the mindset is toxic.
Likewise, incels don't give a shit about people reaching out to them. I have seen success stories where people approach white nationalists with kindness. I have never seen a success story about people reaching out to incels. People can become white nationalists for any many different reasons. But people become incels for one very specific reason, and that's because basically want women to be subservient to their every whim and desire. But even that wouldn't make them happy, because of their insecurities.
Ok so I seem to be on the middle ground here. On the one hand I haven't had personal success bringing any incels over (although I have had what I consider an honest conversation with someone who was perhaps a near-incel). On the other hand, some former incels have posted their stories on r/inceltears attributing the subreddit to their reform. And despite the shade that's been thrown at that subreddit, it has a weekly advice thread where people ask for and are given sincere advice on how to navigate speaking to women/dating. Incel tears also tends to be a place where the incels who want to argue their point come, and some of them at least attempt to debate with sincerity - making it possible (I think) to talk them out of it.
I feel sorry for them and loathe the ideology all at once. I don't think those two things are contradictory. And I think a place like Incel tears should exist to mock the ideology roundly as it deserves to be mocked, while hopefully remembering the human and hoping for his recovery.
I guess it's helpful that at 40 and married, I am a woman Incels do not recognize as a woman, so empathy does come easier because I'm less likely to be a target. Any woman in the target some of incels absolutely should not attempt any empathy towards an incel before they're reformed, and should be legally and socially protected from them.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
The Proud Boys (a violent pro-Western, anti-SJW group) are falling apart after they were designated an extremist group by the FBI, a bunch of folks got arrested, and their founder Gavin McInnes publicly washed his hands of them. Obviously incels are a much more loosely defined group than the Proud Boys, but I think our approach should be the same. The feds should be paying attention to male supremacy. I don't know the inner workings of the FBI, but I sincerely hope they are monitoring misogynist violence and not writing it off as "lone wolves" but rather members of an identifiable ideology. Once the first person gets doxxed and arrested for saying "I'm gonna go ER" on an incel forum, a lot of the other members are going to start getting paranoid and falling off. Make them think there are FBI informants in their midst and they will start distrusting and turning on one another.
I've seen a fair amount of people here say things along the lines of "If I had a community like this when I was young and impressionable, I might have fallen into the trap". Well then, let's do everything we can to shut down those communities. Put pressure on web hosts, content hosts, domain registrars, and payment-processing companies to terminate their relationships with these communities. Return of Kings had to basically shut down and stop posting new content after Disqus and Paypal told them to fuck off. Push them back into the darkness of the fringe web and young people won't accidentally stumble upon them while looking for LOLs on Reddit.
This isn’t the first time I’ve seen the bolded said, in various forms, and I’m confused as to where this comes from. Again, I waded into the r/incel community, as a lurker, just trying to understand where these people were coming from. It was a much different experience than what I’d seen based on r/inceltears or r/niceguys and the like.
This idea that every...last...incel is advocating rape camps and cutting off the dick of every attractive or black guy is just something that is outside of what I personally saw. Yes, those particularly horrifying extremes were there, and were not entirely uncommon. But there were also just some sad, dysfunctional people who hadn’t gotten entirely to the bottom of the hate spiral yet. I’m not sure *all* of them do. I would argue that you do see some subgroups, all with their equally stupid names (copecels, gymcels, etc) who may be trying to find a path that’s at least marginally less horrifying.
Those may or may not, I would say, qualify as your “I have a black friend” or “I’m a separatist, not a supremacist” gradiations in the community.
How many incels did you see talking about their positive platonic relationships with women? Moms, sisters, friends, co-workers, etc.?
Heck, how many incels did you see expressing solidarity with female incels?
For the latter, at least, it was definitely non-zero. Led to arguments, obviously.
The Proud Boys (a violent pro-Western, anti-SJW group) are falling apart after they were designated an extremist group by the FBI, a bunch of folks got arrested, and their founder Gavin McInnes publicly washed his hands of them. Obviously incels are a much more loosely defined group than the Proud Boys, but I think our approach should be the same. The feds should be paying attention to male supremacy. I don't know the inner workings of the FBI, but I sincerely hope they are monitoring misogynist violence and not writing it off as "lone wolves" but rather members of an identifiable ideology. Once the first person gets doxxed and arrested for saying "I'm gonna go ER" on an incel forum, a lot of the other members are going to start getting paranoid and falling off. Make them think there are FBI informants in their midst and they will start distrusting and turning on one another.
I've seen a fair amount of people here say things along the lines of "If I had a community like this when I was young and impressionable, I might have fallen into the trap". Well then, let's do everything we can to shut down those communities. Put pressure on web hosts, content hosts, domain registrars, and payment-processing companies to terminate their relationships with these communities. Return of Kings had to basically shut down and stop posting new content after Disqus and Paypal told them to fuck off. Push them back into the darkness of the fringe web and young people won't accidentally stumble upon them while looking for LOLs on Reddit.
What you just said should really be /thread. Because if its one thing this past year has shown is that deplatforming works. The best thing stop the incel community from recruiting new members is throwing them off easy platforms that reach a wide audience. Honestly I don't think Incel would have gotten so big in the first place if not for Reddit.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
I hope this doesn't seems like I'm trying to make this all about me, but I have to ask; I used to have some pretty fucked up views (see my big post last page). It took me a while, but I got better. Now, I never really gave voice to my feelings back then, so I didn't really expose myself to condemnation, but if I had, do you feel that any condemnation I might have received (justified though it might have been) would have had any impact on my eventual recovery? Is that even a consideration?
I already knew I was a sick fuck. That's why I hated myself and what eventually got me to try and work out my issues. I'm of a feeling that if I had a group of people out there reminding me just what kind of sick fuck I was that that would have had a non-zero chance of me going "you wanna see a sick fuck, fine I'll show you a sick fuck!". To hear some of you here say it, that would have been no less than I deserve, and the man, husband and father I am today would not exist. Am I somehow the exception to the rule? Is there something different about me?
I don't know if you're an exception to any rule, but there seem to be two factors (one internal and one external). First, you didn't talk about it because you already knew that it was shameful (probably because even if your parents didn't quite know how to work with you, they still managed to give you a decent moral compass and model basic good behaviour, and they deserve credit for that) and that knowledge motivated personal growth and self-discovery. Second, because you didn't talk about it, you didn't get any validation and pull yourself deeper into the mindset.
What you just said should really be /thread. Because if its one thing this past year has shown is that deplatforming works. The best thing stop the incel community from recruiting new members is throwing them off easy platforms that reach a wide audience. Honestly I don't think Incel would have gotten so big in the first place if not for Reddit.
I think alt-right Youtube celebrities did a lot more to legitimize the incel movement than Reddit did, because it gives them access to faux intellectuals.
I hope this doesn't seems like I'm trying to make this all about me, but I have to ask; I used to have some pretty fucked up views (see my big post last page). It took me a while, but I got better. Now, I never really gave voice to my feelings back then, so I didn't really expose myself to condemnation, but if I had, do you feel that any condemnation I might have received (justified though it might have been) would have had any impact on my eventual recovery? Is that even a consideration?
I already knew I was a sick fuck. That's why I hated myself and what eventually got me to try and work out my issues. I'm of a feeling that if I had a group of people out there reminding me just what kind of sick fuck I was that that would have had a non-zero chance of me going "you wanna see a sick fuck, fine I'll show you a sick fuck!". To hear some of you here say it, that would have been no less than I deserve, and the man, husband and father I am today would not exist. Am I somehow the exception to the rule? Is there something different about me?
There are key differences between your story and the conventional incel story that are really important. Since you put your story in spoilers, I won't go into details, but you were willing to do things to help with your loneliness that incels are not. You had some unhealthy habits, but you also had coping methods that didn't come from a place of hate and contempt.
What you just said should really be /thread. Because if its one thing this past year has shown is that deplatforming works. The best thing stop the incel community from recruiting new members is throwing them off easy platforms that reach a wide audience. Honestly I don't think Incel would have gotten so big in the first place if not for Reddit.
I think alt-right Youtube celebrities did a lot more to legitimize the incel movement than Reddit did, because it gives them access to faux intellectuals.
I'm thinking of a guy that rhymes with schmordan schmeterson..
Wait, there are female incels, too? I'm very curious about that; I'd imagine they would be significantly different from male incels.
So in terms of identifying as incel, no, in the community no woman is allowed to call herself incel because they insist it's not possible; such a person would be bullied away.
In terms of "are there women who hate men and/or begin from the same 'nice' attitude that these guys do," then absolutely yes there are women like that. If they have a place on the internet to congregate I have not heard of it.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I hope this doesn't seems like I'm trying to make this all about me, but I have to ask; I used to have some pretty fucked up views (see my big post last page). It took me a while, but I got better. Now, I never really gave voice to my feelings back then, so I didn't really expose myself to condemnation, but if I had, do you feel that any condemnation I might have received (justified though it might have been) would have had any impact on my eventual recovery? Is that even a consideration?
I already knew I was a sick fuck. That's why I hated myself and what eventually got me to try and work out my issues. I'm of a feeling that if I had a group of people out there reminding me just what kind of sick fuck I was that that would have had a non-zero chance of me going "you wanna see a sick fuck, fine I'll show you a sick fuck!". To hear some of you here say it, that would have been no less than I deserve, and the man, husband and father I am today would not exist. Am I somehow the exception to the rule? Is there something different about me?
I don't know if you're an exception to any rule, but there seem to be two factors (one internal and one external). First, you didn't talk about it because you already knew that it was shameful (probably because even if your parents didn't quite know how to work with you, they still managed to give you a decent moral compass and model basic good behaviour, and they deserve credit for that) and that knowledge motivated personal growth and self-discovery. Second, because you didn't talk about it, you didn't get any validation and pull yourself deeper into the mindset.
Sometimes you can dig yourself out of a mental hole. Other times you can't.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I hope this doesn't seems like I'm trying to make this all about me, but I have to ask; I used to have some pretty fucked up views (see my big post last page). It took me a while, but I got better. Now, I never really gave voice to my feelings back then, so I didn't really expose myself to condemnation, but if I had, do you feel that any condemnation I might have received (justified though it might have been) would have had any impact on my eventual recovery? Is that even a consideration?
I already knew I was a sick fuck. That's why I hated myself and what eventually got me to try and work out my issues. I'm of a feeling that if I had a group of people out there reminding me just what kind of sick fuck I was that that would have had a non-zero chance of me going "you wanna see a sick fuck, fine I'll show you a sick fuck!". To hear some of you here say it, that would have been no less than I deserve, and the man, husband and father I am today would not exist. Am I somehow the exception to the rule? Is there something different about me?
I don't know if you're an exception to any rule, but there seem to be two factors (one internal and one external). First, you didn't talk about it because you already knew that it was shameful (probably because even if your parents didn't quite know how to work with you, they still managed to give you a decent moral compass and model basic good behaviour, and they deserve credit for that) and that knowledge motivated personal growth and self-discovery. Second, because you didn't talk about it, you didn't get any validation and pull yourself deeper into the mindset.
Sometimes you can dig yourself out of a mental hole. Other times you can't.
Wait, there are female incels, too? I'm very curious about that; I'd imagine they would be significantly different from male incels.
So in terms of identifying as incel, no, in the community no woman is allowed to call herself incel because they insist it's not possible; such a person would be bullied away.
In terms of "are there women who hate men and/or begin from the same 'nice' attitude that these guys do," then absolutely yes there are women like that. If they have a place on the internet to congregate I have not heard of it.
Though the community was started by a woman, though the intention was for it to be more of a self help group for other people who found themselves bereft of a relationship for reasons that didn't seem to be under their control.
Probably a few remnants and relics about the place before it was taken over by the alt-right, and it's not that hard to imagine that there's individuals who are effectively women Incels who believe the same things. You have to be pretty to have a relationship, or your partner will leave you for someone prettier first chance they get, or alternatively resent you for taking advantage of them and be constantly waiting for you to leave them - don't think I'd look for a relationship either under those conditions.
Also I think there is a bit we've overlooked here - they believe and advocate for some pretty awful things, but all humans are monsters in their worldview. Men and women are equally atrocious and this seems an accepted fact, everyone's bad and it's just them who are ones getting hurt.
Which seems ludicrous enough that it probably isn't that hard to get people out of it. Just need a single decent friend and a break from the screaming vortex.
At what point does this endless circle if trying to get thru to incels become abuser coddling.
Ya there's empathy to be had there, but it seems all the empathy is being directed at how to help these "poor misunderstood folk" than doing anything to help their growing list of victims or prevent future incidents in any way for what seems to be the risk of hurting an incels feelings?
The cure can come later , atm my focus is on taking away their power to prevent future bullshit from them.
At what point does this endless circle if trying to get thru to incels become abuser coddling.
Ya there's empathy to be had there, but it seems all the empathy is being directed at how to help these "poor misunderstood folk" than doing anything to help their growing list of victims or prevent future incidents in any way for what seems to be the risk of hurting an incels feelings?
The cure can come later , atm my focus is on taking away their power to prevent future bullshit from them.
This isn't mutually exclusive. This isn't any different than authorities figuring out how criminals work or creating preventive measures. Entire side industries are creating doing this type of work, RE: serial killers. Addressing incels feelings are a major reason why they go down that path to begin, take that away and we get less incels and more men being safer around women. A lot of the discussion has been in prevention, which entails doing exactly this so vulnerable people don't fall down that rabbit hole to begin with. Simply attacking them will only do so much (though deplatforming will do wonders to cut off recruitment and radicalisation) and will make them double down because they'll see it as a confirmation of their beliefs.
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Reddit already Alex Jones'd them in 2017, so the number one thing that has worked has already worked
That's good, but we're going to do need to a lot more for long term prevention than simply deplatforming. That's just the easiest route to take, because making systemic change in society takes a lot of money, resources and time.
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Because racism runs a much wider spectrum, ranging from microaggression to full blown Nazi's.
For instance, there's a cosplayer a while back who was good friends with George Perez, to the extent that George Perez actually used her as the model for a reboot of "Supergirl." Her cosplay career came to an end when she was filmed at a Nazi rally while her boyfriend was shouting "Jews will not replace us." Up until that point, a lot of her friends were completely unaware of her white nationalist sympathies.
Likewise, plenty of white nationalists will mention having "black friends." Many of them will preach a "separate but equal" segregation, and some of them will actually believe it. You'll have white nationalists who deny they hate black people.
Is there an equivalent of this in the incel community? Nope.
Because the problem with incels isn't simply their inability to form romantic relationships. It's their inability to form healthy relationships at all. Even the relationships between incels are incredibly toxic.
Male incels have no equivalent of "I have a black friend." More importantly, even if a woman offered to be a friend, they would actively reject it unless she's also willing to have sex with them (and if she is willing to have sex with them, she also needs to be a chaste virgin). They don't even get along with female incels, and the female incels (who are an entirely different community with an entirely different dynamic) want nothing to do with them. If female incels can't get along with male incels, then the problem isn't a lack of empathy. The problem is toxic behavior.
Saying "Mentally ill people should only be helped if they are sympathetic" is roughly equivalent to saying "Mentally ill people should not be helped". Almost no one would say the second statement, in abstract, but many people end up saying it in a practical sense.
I have had many people who have negatively impacted my life due to their own mental illness. I hope they get the help they need and become healthy, and also that they leave me the fuck alone, forever, because the mitigating factor of their illness does not erase their effect on my life.
Understanding the threat of incel culture in part requires understanding that the pain you are talking about is part of their propaganda, it’s the reason for joining they list on the brochure.
It’s some part of the truth, but it isn’t the whole truth any more than white nationalist fascism is really just a group of economically anxious folk.
Huh.
You're making a bit of a jump here. Those of us outside looking in trying to empathize and understand what they're going through and feeling don't come to the same conclusions as the group itself does.
The removal of toxic masculine culture is probably the only way to mitigate this stuff.
It still won't eliminate it wholly. People are always going to feel jaded and need to blame others for things, imagined or not. But it will go a long way towards minimizing its effect.
I mean, is it propaganda if it's true? It's not like people are making up feelings of isolation. I dislike analogies, but if we are going to do the white nationalist one, I'm saying "people are worried about job security." Yes, that's* what white nationalism appeals to, but it's not as though they're making it up whole cloth, or people are actually feeling totally economically secure.
*I don't think it is, but going with this narrative
I am specifically paying attention as I have 2 boys I do not want them falling into this crowd. As a young I was very close to incel ideology. I hadn't made the leap yet that is was all someone else's fault yet tho. So the limit of my expression was dropping out and running away with a little bit if suicidal ideation. Then I basically recovered left to my own devices.
But there was no established community at that time to ensnare me.
Yes, it can still be propaganda, even if it’s a partial but misleading truth.
Many of them were raised in caring and emotionally supportive environments. Many of them are traditionally attractive and would have minimal barriers to some sort of romantic interaction. Many of them have broad social networks and people to consider close friends.
It’s at least as much about untreated mental illness and violent male entitlement as it is the pain of isolation. Understanding them requires understanding that.
That's because you're not an incel. The acknowledgement and emphasis of those feelings is absolutely something they use as a recruitment tactic. Further to that they're also offering a support group for people feeling those emotions - just incredibly misguiding and damaging support.
How you approach the problem depends on which way you think that goes.
Right, so we have (reduced)
1) people are feeling the pain of isolation
2) and are taught violent entitlement
3) so they react via radicalization
4) and end up killing people
I am saying that a lot of people are discounting 1) as either a place to intervene or even as a real thing. Even here, as we clinically discuss this. The focus is on 2) (important) and 4) (too late). 2 is certainly an easier place to intervene, because it's trivial to say violence is bad, and righteous to fight against it (and you get to be angry at things!), but I think that 1) is actually very important too, and worth considering both because it's a point of intervention and because it's categorically good to alleviate suffering.
Edit:
That is precisely why we should try and support people suffering those emotions.
Im not sure the two are mutually exclusive
These are people that have made a choice to join a group that actively hates women and thinks they should be subjugated. That decision deserves no sympathy. If they made that decision to join said group (in lieu of seeking real help) then fine, treat the illness but do not ignore the decision they made.
I already knew I was a sick fuck. That's why I hated myself and what eventually got me to try and work out my issues. I'm of a feeling that if I had a group of people out there reminding me just what kind of sick fuck I was that that would have had a non-zero chance of me going "you wanna see a sick fuck, fine I'll show you a sick fuck!". To hear some of you here say it, that would have been no less than I deserve, and the man, husband and father I am today would not exist. Am I somehow the exception to the rule? Is there something different about me?
I disagree with that chart entirely. That’s precisely the kind of oversimplification that leads to misunderstanding them. And it’s a very tempting explanation because it seems so neat and logical, and many of us can relate to the first bullet point.
Sometimes the feelings of loneliness are created as a displacement of the frustration of unfulfilled entitlement. Sometimes they are performative to be a part of a culture that encourages the violence they crave.
It’s really not as simple as “they were very sad and couldn’t find a healthy outlet so they chose a bad one.”
What is an incel tends to be a bit of a moving target in this thread but an inability to form healthy relationships seems to be a general component and whether that rises to the level of a mental health issue or not its certainly meriting treatment.
Either way, no one is asking anyone to sympathize with their choice to join up with bad people, just the pain and discontent that got them to that point.
This isn’t the first time I’ve seen the bolded said, in various forms, and I’m confused as to where this comes from. Again, I waded into the r/incel community, as a lurker, just trying to understand where these people were coming from. It was a much different experience than what I’d seen based on r/inceltears or r/niceguys and the like.
This idea that every...last...incel is advocating rape camps and cutting off the dick of every attractive or black guy is just something that is outside of what I personally saw. Yes, those particularly horrifying extremes were there, and were not entirely uncommon. But there were also just some sad, dysfunctional people who hadn’t gotten entirely to the bottom of the hate spiral yet. I’m not sure *all* of them do. I would argue that you do see some subgroups, all with their equally stupid names (copecels, gymcels, etc) who may be trying to find a path that’s at least marginally less horrifying.
Those may or may not, I would say, qualify as your “I have a black friend” or “I’m a separatist, not a supremacist” gradiations in the community.
There is also a limit to how much we owe other people. We are not responsible for their actions by virtue of failing to be above and beyond supportive. Especially when their go to response towards attempts at support is abuse.
We should also distinguish between Incels as individuals and Incels as a community. Individuals might get some benefit of the doubt, but giving the Community as a whole anything but scorn is counterproductive.
How many incels did you see talking about their positive platonic relationships with women? Moms, sisters, friends, co-workers, etc.?
Heck, how many incels did you see expressing solidarity with female incels?
Ok so I seem to be on the middle ground here. On the one hand I haven't had personal success bringing any incels over (although I have had what I consider an honest conversation with someone who was perhaps a near-incel). On the other hand, some former incels have posted their stories on r/inceltears attributing the subreddit to their reform. And despite the shade that's been thrown at that subreddit, it has a weekly advice thread where people ask for and are given sincere advice on how to navigate speaking to women/dating. Incel tears also tends to be a place where the incels who want to argue their point come, and some of them at least attempt to debate with sincerity - making it possible (I think) to talk them out of it.
I feel sorry for them and loathe the ideology all at once. I don't think those two things are contradictory. And I think a place like Incel tears should exist to mock the ideology roundly as it deserves to be mocked, while hopefully remembering the human and hoping for his recovery.
I guess it's helpful that at 40 and married, I am a woman Incels do not recognize as a woman, so empathy does come easier because I'm less likely to be a target. Any woman in the target some of incels absolutely should not attempt any empathy towards an incel before they're reformed, and should be legally and socially protected from them.
I've seen a fair amount of people here say things along the lines of "If I had a community like this when I was young and impressionable, I might have fallen into the trap". Well then, let's do everything we can to shut down those communities. Put pressure on web hosts, content hosts, domain registrars, and payment-processing companies to terminate their relationships with these communities. Return of Kings had to basically shut down and stop posting new content after Disqus and Paypal told them to fuck off. Push them back into the darkness of the fringe web and young people won't accidentally stumble upon them while looking for LOLs on Reddit.
For the latter, at least, it was definitely non-zero. Led to arguments, obviously.
In the 80s, the IRA were genuinely pro-bombing school children laying wreathes on Armistice Day.
But here we are, with schoolchildren now not being bombed.
What you just said should really be /thread. Because if its one thing this past year has shown is that deplatforming works. The best thing stop the incel community from recruiting new members is throwing them off easy platforms that reach a wide audience. Honestly I don't think Incel would have gotten so big in the first place if not for Reddit.
I don't know if you're an exception to any rule, but there seem to be two factors (one internal and one external). First, you didn't talk about it because you already knew that it was shameful (probably because even if your parents didn't quite know how to work with you, they still managed to give you a decent moral compass and model basic good behaviour, and they deserve credit for that) and that knowledge motivated personal growth and self-discovery. Second, because you didn't talk about it, you didn't get any validation and pull yourself deeper into the mindset.
I think alt-right Youtube celebrities did a lot more to legitimize the incel movement than Reddit did, because it gives them access to faux intellectuals.
There are key differences between your story and the conventional incel story that are really important. Since you put your story in spoilers, I won't go into details, but you were willing to do things to help with your loneliness that incels are not. You had some unhealthy habits, but you also had coping methods that didn't come from a place of hate and contempt.
I'm thinking of a guy that rhymes with schmordan schmeterson..
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
So in terms of identifying as incel, no, in the community no woman is allowed to call herself incel because they insist it's not possible; such a person would be bullied away.
In terms of "are there women who hate men and/or begin from the same 'nice' attitude that these guys do," then absolutely yes there are women like that. If they have a place on the internet to congregate I have not heard of it.
Sometimes you can dig yourself out of a mental hole. Other times you can't.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Pull yourself out, digging just expands the hole.
Though the community was started by a woman, though the intention was for it to be more of a self help group for other people who found themselves bereft of a relationship for reasons that didn't seem to be under their control.
Probably a few remnants and relics about the place before it was taken over by the alt-right, and it's not that hard to imagine that there's individuals who are effectively women Incels who believe the same things. You have to be pretty to have a relationship, or your partner will leave you for someone prettier first chance they get, or alternatively resent you for taking advantage of them and be constantly waiting for you to leave them - don't think I'd look for a relationship either under those conditions.
Also I think there is a bit we've overlooked here - they believe and advocate for some pretty awful things, but all humans are monsters in their worldview. Men and women are equally atrocious and this seems an accepted fact, everyone's bad and it's just them who are ones getting hurt.
Which seems ludicrous enough that it probably isn't that hard to get people out of it. Just need a single decent friend and a break from the screaming vortex.
Ya there's empathy to be had there, but it seems all the empathy is being directed at how to help these "poor misunderstood folk" than doing anything to help their growing list of victims or prevent future incidents in any way for what seems to be the risk of hurting an incels feelings?
The cure can come later , atm my focus is on taking away their power to prevent future bullshit from them.
This isn't mutually exclusive. This isn't any different than authorities figuring out how criminals work or creating preventive measures. Entire side industries are creating doing this type of work, RE: serial killers. Addressing incels feelings are a major reason why they go down that path to begin, take that away and we get less incels and more men being safer around women. A lot of the discussion has been in prevention, which entails doing exactly this so vulnerable people don't fall down that rabbit hole to begin with. Simply attacking them will only do so much (though deplatforming will do wonders to cut off recruitment and radicalisation) and will make them double down because they'll see it as a confirmation of their beliefs.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
That's good, but we're going to do need to a lot more for long term prevention than simply deplatforming. That's just the easiest route to take, because making systemic change in society takes a lot of money, resources and time.