Yeah, women always being on the receiving end of courtship perpetuates a power imbalance. I used to think the seeming ubiquity of dating apps would help resolve this.
As a person who has accounts on two dating apps, the general feel I get is that it's a cultural/tradition thing as opposed to only social anxiety. I have seen a great many dating profiles where the woman flat out says "Be a man and message me...I don't message guys first."
Incidentally, those are profiles I immediately pass on as I really don't care for continuing traditional gender roles.
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
The Larson network encourages incels to take “the rapepill” — defined as “the understanding that for civilization to survive, femoids need to be treated as subhuman objects whose purpose is to obey, and bear the children of, supreme gentlemen such as ourselves.” (The term “supreme gentleman” is one Rodger used to describe himself.) One of Larson’s sites, called Raping Girls Is Fun, currently has nearly 500 forum members; I’ve seen its users swap stories about the women they say they’ve assaulted and tips on how to commit rape most effectively.
Jesus fucking christ, I knew about Incels, but this one is a new one on me!
Yeah that's pretty de riguer for incels. They have extended fantasies wherein they rape their sisters. They have no women to whom they feel any sort of humanity towards, not even their mothers. (though they wouldn't rape their mothers since women over 30 are what they call "past the wall" and useless for all purposes, even sex).
One of the more infamous old-school incels (caamib/GovernmentsGetGirlfriends/thatincelblogger) definitely did express that his mother should have had pity sex with him.
I just took the "Dating Difficulties" survey (which, btw, is also open to people who previously had difficulties but have overcome them).
It's pretty nice and comprehensive. At some points you're given various options to choose from, and at others you can type in your responses. You can also choose whether or not to allow the survey takers to quote your answers.
The survey's results are also expected to be released in June of this year.
Shyness is not “acceptable” in women either. A sweet modesty is seen as appealing, but true social awkwardness is as off-putting in girls as guys. True shyness in women can come off as aloofness or hostility or weirdness.
If you can pull off being appealingly shy, you're actually a master of social communication
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
The Love, Not Anger site also posted links to these two articles I found interesting (and very relatable...):
It's also really common for shyer guys to fantasize about meeting a really forward, aggressive woman who makes all the scary moves for them. She asks him out, she kisses him first, etc. However, if a guy is really shy he may still balk in the face of someone so direct, and still blow his chance.
Not gonna lie, the one time that happened it was pretty amazing. Had some friends over for a game night, someone brought a friend of a friend, we hit it off. Next day I get a text, "Friend gave me your number, it seems like you could use a good time. I'm picking you up tomorrow at 7, deal with it." It only lasted a few months because she was moving pretty far away, but that was one of the best times I've ever had dating someone.
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Lord_AsmodeusgoeticSobriquet:Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered Userregular
I definitely identify with a lot of that, particularly the bit about wanting someone else to make the first move. I feel fortunate in that despite my issues about feeling anxious to actually approach people romantically, I don't generally feel that anxious around other people generally, though certain situations have the effect (for example, the gym. I am utterly afraid of looking like an idiot trying to figure out how to use the equipment, even though I know trying to learn how to use equipment is normal and most people wouldn't judge me at all for it)
Capital is only the fruit of labor, and could never have existed if Labor had not first existed. Labor is superior to capital, and deserves much the higher consideration. - Lincoln
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
Vox published a a detailed longform piece on the history of the incel movement and how it became radicalized. It's worth reading through, because it discusses how what started as an inclusive community built by a queer woman became so poisoned by misogyny and hate - and in several cases, was done intentionally.
My wife asked me out on our first date, and to this day she's asked by women how she did it, and whether that made things weird. I think some of them, especially the single ones, are interested to know if they can actually ask a guy out who they're interested in, rather than be obligated to date the men who ask them out. But she gets frustrated with them because after explaining that she did it, and liked it, they make some remark about how weird that is or "Wait, really?"
My male single friends ask me about this as well, including my brother, because they're pretty sure that outside of a woman actually asking them out, they'll be single for the rest of their lives. They act like I won the lottery, or I've produced a unicorn and they'll actually say, "I didn't know that happened!" They're hoping I have some magic answer for how to get women to ask you out. I dunno, I went to a coffee bar and didn't realize I was getting hit on by the waitress for a year and a half, so she got frustrated and asked me out. I don't think that's a good recipe! Ultimately I refuse to fill their heads with platitudes of how there's someone for everyone or any such bullshit. I tell them that I did, in fact, win the lottery. I was comfortable at age 30 with the idea that I was probably going to be single for the rest of my life, and die alone. I had made peace with that. And then a miracle occurred. I don't pretend it will happen for you, or you, or you. It could, and that'd be great, but the idea that you're destined to find someone is bullshit. Also, coming to peace with who I was and where I was going, probably had a positive effect on my charisma and attitude, and it probably helped me.
I seriously hope women feel (and are) more and more empowered over time, because dating dudes you don't want to date just because they asked you out (and you feel obligated because roles or whatever), and not dating dudes you're actually interested in because you want them to ask you out, cannot possibly be a fun existence. I know being a shy dude who can't function worth a shit around women wasn't a fun existence for me.
My wife asking me out was the best thing that ever happened to me. And I'm not saying that because she turned out to be my future wife, I'm saying that because it took tons of pressure off of both of us, and the traditional dating rituals were a forgotten fucking memory. We skipped a lot of things and we got comfortable with each other ridiculously fast. It certainly did not hurt that, being a shy single guy for most of my life, being chased by a woman was a fantasy sure to never be fulfilled. It was amazing. I recommend the experience!
The irony with incels, of course, is that while women asking shy guys out would certainly deplete the pool of single shy men for incels to recruit from, the incel community itself makes the prospect of doing so kinda dangerous.
My male single friends ask me about this as well, including my brother, because they're pretty sure that outside of a woman actually asking them out, they'll be single for the rest of their lives. They act like I won the lottery, or I've produced a unicorn and they'll actually say, "I didn't know that happened!" They're hoping I have some magic answer for how to get women to ask you out. I dunno, I went to a coffee bar and didn't realize I was getting hit on by the waitress for a year and a half, so she got frustrated and asked me out. I don't think that's a good recipe! Ultimately I refuse to fill their heads with platitudes of how there's someone for everyone or any such bullshit. I tell them that I did, in fact, win the lottery. I was comfortable at age 30 with the idea that I was probably going to be single for the rest of my life, and die alone. I had made peace with that. And then a miracle occurred. I don't pretend it will happen for you, or you, or you. It could, and that'd be great, but the idea that you're destined to find someone is bullshit. Also, coming to peace with who I was and where I was going, probably had a positive effect on my charisma and attitude, and it probably helped me.
For the record, my story of asking out Strikor is similar but different. For me, I had had several men in my life that I basically threw myself at and they didn't react at all: my impression based on this was that I was incredibly unattractive. When I decided to pursue Strikor, I wanted everything to be clear so that he could reject me immediately instead of me moping around for months dropping hints and having my heart broken. We were long distance, so the first part was me asking to visit him, and I believe I actually used the words "I hope you understand that I'm visiting you in the hope that smooching might at some point occur. If smooching is off the table then I don't want to go."
I found out, after being happily married for some time, that at least one of the guys I relentlessly threw myself at (but never said "I like you and would be interested in smooching") never had a clue I was flirting. So that was interesting to know, if not really impacting on my life at that point.
I should probably add that Strikor and I had known each other causally through these boards for years, and at the time I started getting interested we had been playing SWTOR online together for like 6 months. Had he betrayed any Incel-like, or even niceguy-like tendencies in that time, me asking him out would never have happened.
Cambiata on
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I recently learned that women get excellent sexual health resources through common media like American Girl and scarleteen.com, while men get the classical idea of being a perfect gentleman, which is still very much in vogue but has a big blank spot on topics pertaining to sexuality. In fact, most of practixal male sexual education occurs under very negative circumstances, which may cause an almost pavlovian aversion to cognitively processing sexuality beyond a very basic understanding.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I think I should add, in regards to girls asking out guys and the incel community, you can read their forums and find situations where they describe ABSOLUTELY getting hit on, and them thinking that they're being "mocked" or perhaps worse, that getting a girlfriend would be a bad thing because all women are constantly having sex with "chad" even when in a relationship - that is, that the only reason that a woman could be taking an interest in them is as a sugar daddy ("beta bux" using their language) while fucking the man they "really" want on the side. These guys are genuinely in a prison of their own making, and women becoming more confident and able to approach men, which you would think would grant them hope and make them think that life isn't so bad, actually has the opposite effect on them.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I think I should add, in regards to girls asking out guys and the incel community, you can read their forums and find situations where they describe ABSOLUTELY getting hit on, and them thinking that they're being "mocked" or perhaps worse, that getting a girlfriend would be a bad thing because all women are constantly having sex with "chad" even when in a relationship - that is, that the only reason that a woman could be taking an interest in them is as a sugar daddy ("beta bux" using their language) while fucking the man they "really" want on the side. These guys are genuinely in a prison of their own making, and women becoming more confident and able to approach men, which you would think would grant them hope and make them think that life isn't so bad, actually has the opposite effect on them.
Oh I can definitely see that. I was more referring to "shy guys" rather than incels. But then again, how the fuck does a woman know which one she's dealing with nowadays?
I think I should add, in regards to girls asking out guys and the incel community, you can read their forums and find situations where they describe ABSOLUTELY getting hit on, and them thinking that they're being "mocked" or perhaps worse, that getting a girlfriend would be a bad thing because all women are constantly having sex with "chad" even when in a relationship - that is, that the only reason that a woman could be taking an interest in them is as a sugar daddy ("beta bux" using their language) while fucking the man they "really" want on the side. These guys are genuinely in a prison of their own making, and women becoming more confident and able to approach men, which you would think would grant them hope and make them think that life isn't so bad, actually has the opposite effect on them.
Oh I can definitely see that. I was more referring to "shy guys" rather than incels. But then again, how the fuck does a woman know which one she's dealing with nowadays?
She doesn't, which is a massive part of the problem. As the quote goes:
Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid that men will kill them.
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Recently I saw an incel tell a story of how he catfishes women on Tinder, then asks them to meet him in a dangerous part of town where he doesn't show up. Knowing incels this could be a made up story, but it isn't exactly a hard trick to pull off and while not as dangerous as being in a relationship with an incel, is still not a harmless act.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I think I should add, in regards to girls asking out guys and the incel community, you can read their forums and find situations where they describe ABSOLUTELY getting hit on, and them thinking that they're being "mocked" or perhaps worse, that getting a girlfriend would be a bad thing because all women are constantly having sex with "chad" even when in a relationship - that is, that the only reason that a woman could be taking an interest in them is as a sugar daddy ("beta bux" using their language) while fucking the man they "really" want on the side. These guys are genuinely in a prison of their own making, and women becoming more confident and able to approach men, which you would think would grant them hope and make them think that life isn't so bad, actually has the opposite effect on them.
That mentality of "if a girl's forward with me they must be fucking with me" is something that is usually ingrained pretty early and is really hard to break out of later in life. I can't say for how widespread this behavior is in general, but I went to a very urban public high school, and especially cruel girls who flirted with the social outcasts just to fuck with them(hey you're cute - haha jk like anyone would be interested in you) were absolutely a thing during my time there and it really messed some kids up.
I think I should add, in regards to girls asking out guys and the incel community, you can read their forums and find situations where they describe ABSOLUTELY getting hit on, and them thinking that they're being "mocked" or perhaps worse, that getting a girlfriend would be a bad thing because all women are constantly having sex with "chad" even when in a relationship - that is, that the only reason that a woman could be taking an interest in them is as a sugar daddy ("beta bux" using their language) while fucking the man they "really" want on the side. These guys are genuinely in a prison of their own making, and women becoming more confident and able to approach men, which you would think would grant them hope and make them think that life isn't so bad, actually has the opposite effect on them.
Oh I can definitely see that. I was more referring to "shy guys" rather than incels. But then again, how the fuck does a woman know which one she's dealing with nowadays?
She doesn't, which is a massive part of the problem. As the quote goes:
Men are afraid that women will laugh at them.
Women are afraid that men will kill them.
Frustratingly, this disparity will continue to reinforce the current imbalance between dating behaviors that maximizes the representation of bad actors in the active dating population. Good men are not only afraid that women will laugh at them, they are afraid that women will fear them.
Paladin on
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I remember for a long time I was told I was an anti complimenter. In that someone would compliment me and I would immediately turn it down because I had such low self esteem.
Its why Self depreciating humor is dangerous, at some point its less humor and flat out "i hate myself.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I remember for a long time I was told I was an anti complimenter. In that someone would compliment me and I would immediately turn it down because I had such low self esteem.
Its why Self depreciating humor is dangerous, at some point its less humor and flat out "i hate myself.
A lot of people need to be taught this directly, especially when growing up:
Self-deprecating humor is almost always bad for you socially. The *only* people it works for are people in situations where they are clearly and obviously in a position of social strength over everyone else (either through an enforced hierarchy, like being the boss, or because they're just some sort of 10/10 charisma superstar that everyone already loves). And it works for them because it actually calls attention to their strength by lampshading it.
Trying to use it to cover up weakness or insecurity just underlines the weakness and insecurity.
I think I should add, in regards to girls asking out guys and the incel community, you can read their forums and find situations where they describe ABSOLUTELY getting hit on, and them thinking that they're being "mocked" or perhaps worse, that getting a girlfriend would be a bad thing because all women are constantly having sex with "chad" even when in a relationship - that is, that the only reason that a woman could be taking an interest in them is as a sugar daddy ("beta bux" using their language) while fucking the man they "really" want on the side. These guys are genuinely in a prison of their own making, and women becoming more confident and able to approach men, which you would think would grant them hope and make them think that life isn't so bad, actually has the opposite effect on them.
That mentality of "if a girl's forward with me they must be fucking with me" is something that is usually ingrained pretty early and is really hard to break out of later in life. I can't say for how widespread this behavior is in general, but I went to a very urban public high school, and especially cruel girls who flirted with the social outcasts just to fuck with them(hey you're cute - haha jk like anyone would be interested in you) were absolutely a thing during my time there and it really messed some kids up.
I haven't told this story to very many people.
When I was 9 years old, one of the kids who bullied me in grade school slipped me a note that said that one of the girls in my class "liked" me. Then he badgered me for a couple of days to go talk to her.
It might help to know that both he and that girl were a couple years older than me.
The combination of age difference, his history of bullying me, and the fact that I wasn't quite interested in girls yet, led me to believe that it was a prank.
Because that was my first experience receiving a signal that a girl was interested in me, I spent many of my teenage years suspicious towards any overture of romantic interest.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
I think I should add, in regards to girls asking out guys and the incel community, you can read their forums and find situations where they describe ABSOLUTELY getting hit on, and them thinking that they're being "mocked" or perhaps worse, that getting a girlfriend would be a bad thing because all women are constantly having sex with "chad" even when in a relationship - that is, that the only reason that a woman could be taking an interest in them is as a sugar daddy ("beta bux" using their language) while fucking the man they "really" want on the side. These guys are genuinely in a prison of their own making, and women becoming more confident and able to approach men, which you would think would grant them hope and make them think that life isn't so bad, actually has the opposite effect on them.
That mentality of "if a girl's forward with me they must be fucking with me" is something that is usually ingrained pretty early and is really hard to break out of later in life. I can't say for how widespread this behavior is in general, but I went to a very urban public high school, and especially cruel girls who flirted with the social outcasts just to fuck with them(hey you're cute - haha jk like anyone would be interested in you) were absolutely a thing during my time there and it really messed some kids up.
I had a couple girls in jr high that somehow found my phone number and kept trying to get me to do things like meet them in the girls locker room naked. They were the only female contact I had at the time, so I kept taking their calls. This was after another girl had convinced me that what my (soon ex) girlfriend really wanted was an extremely graphic "love letter", which she even wrote for me to copy.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
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MrMisterJesus dying on the cross in pain? Morally better than us. One has to go "all in".Registered Userregular
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
I’m pretty sure no one was saying that the right response to sexual bullying is to grow up and argue for legalized rape?
Yeah the sad/scary part about incel forums is for a lot of people we were in a similar place mentally, we just didn't go to a forum that amplified our worst thoughts and told us "its ok its not your fault everyone else is to blame".
Like for my last couple years in highschool I hung out with some real assholes, like super big douchey fuckers and it made my last couple years of highschool misery, not that I noticed it at the time, I was hanging with my "friends" but we were miserable assholes who played off each other. Years removed from it I recognized what a negative influence those guys played on my self esteem and general social ability. Incel forums are like that writ large, just a pack of miserable assholes who get together and make each other miserable. And that's so hard to puncture because again self fulfilling prophecy.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
Yeah the sad/scary part about incel forums is for a lot of people we were in a similar place mentally, we just didn't go to a forum that amplified our worst thoughts and told us "its ok its not your fault everyone else is to blame".
Like for my last couple years in highschool I hung out with some real assholes, like super big douchey fuckers and it made my last couple years of highschool misery, not that I noticed it at the time, I was hanging with my "friends" but we were miserable assholes who played off each other. Years removed from it I recognized what a negative influence those guys played on my self esteem and general social ability. Incel forums are like that writ large, just a pack of miserable assholes who get together and make each other miserable. And that's so hard to puncture because again self fulfilling prophecy.
Worse, there are also manipulators who have agendae who get involved, using the platform as a means of indoctrination.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
You have to take a risk is really what happens. Like its true of all things in life but especially true in love life type stuff. You can not expect a partner to fall into your lap, and its fucking scary, being in love/infatuation is terrifying. But the alternative to just accept being alone forever is another kind of terror if you let it control you.
Nothing risked, nothing gained.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
Isn't the context of "take risks" here literally just, like, "be OK talking to women without assuming they are trying to hurt you"?
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Reinforcing the toxic-masculine ideal that men should confront psychological pain by powering through it; that acknowledging it and talking about it is a waste of time; is deeply counterproductive.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Yeah the sad/scary part about incel forums is for a lot of people we were in a similar place mentally, we just didn't go to a forum that amplified our worst thoughts and told us "its ok its not your fault everyone else is to blame".
Like for my last couple years in highschool I hung out with some real assholes, like super big douchey fuckers and it made my last couple years of highschool misery, not that I noticed it at the time, I was hanging with my "friends" but we were miserable assholes who played off each other. Years removed from it I recognized what a negative influence those guys played on my self esteem and general social ability. Incel forums are like that writ large, just a pack of miserable assholes who get together and make each other miserable. And that's so hard to puncture because again self fulfilling prophecy.
Terminating a self fulfilling prophecy or addictive behavior requires a social escape valve. Nobody is real interested in installing one.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Yeah the sad/scary part about incel forums is for a lot of people we were in a similar place mentally, we just didn't go to a forum that amplified our worst thoughts and told us "its ok its not your fault everyone else is to blame".
Like for my last couple years in highschool I hung out with some real assholes, like super big douchey fuckers and it made my last couple years of highschool misery, not that I noticed it at the time, I was hanging with my "friends" but we were miserable assholes who played off each other. Years removed from it I recognized what a negative influence those guys played on my self esteem and general social ability. Incel forums are like that writ large, just a pack of miserable assholes who get together and make each other miserable. And that's so hard to puncture because again self fulfilling prophecy.
Worse, there are also manipulators who have agendae who get involved, using the platform as a means of indoctrination.
There is that too, there are bad actors in that pool as well. But again for me the scary thing about incel stories is how relatable they are before the outward woman hate. Like the sad story about being picked on, or being alone at social events. That's the real pain and hurt I've felt, and its not hard to see where they got to from where I was.
Its kind of like the scary thing about a car accident is how close you were to it being real bad, the scary thing about Incels is they aren't too far from any of us on a given bad day. All they needed was a nudge and as you said bad actors and wammo a new foot soldier in the woman hating army.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
Not really? Dating is inherently emotionally risky. If you fear the risk of rejection or being led on, your choices are pretty much deal with it or opt out.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Reinforcing the toxic-masculine ideal that men should confront psychological pain by powering through it; that acknowledging it and talking about it is a waste of time; is deeply counterproductive.
Ehhhhh. Ish. If acknowledging it and talking about it is part of the process that helps you get to the point where you can take the risk (or accept that you don't want to), then it's a good thing. But it can also be a way of reinforcing negative thought patterns. It's crucial to understand that being hurt emotionally by dating is not a failure state that happened to you because there's something wrong with you (or the world, from the incel point of view). It's part of the process for everyone.
Prevention and engagement are a good starting point to stop radicalization from occurring. I'm 33 and my parents got us internet dial up when I was 14. Zero oversight. No education. Thank God me and my brother made it out without damage.
I can't imagine doing that to a kid today. It would be negligent.
Today's internet is not the internet of 1995, or 2000. I met nearly every risk factor of becoming what we'd now consider an incel as a teenager, until I discovered the internet. It is incredibly disheartening to see how the net has changed and become an amplifier for these people's worst impulses rather than an escape and reprieve.
At the same time, I find it incredibly hard to have much sympathy for them, because fuck dudes, you can literally define yourself any way you want on the web. You just have to want to.
I think I should add, in regards to girls asking out guys and the incel community, you can read their forums and find situations where they describe ABSOLUTELY getting hit on, and them thinking that they're being "mocked" or perhaps worse, that getting a girlfriend would be a bad thing because all women are constantly having sex with "chad" even when in a relationship - that is, that the only reason that a woman could be taking an interest in them is as a sugar daddy ("beta bux" using their language) while fucking the man they "really" want on the side. These guys are genuinely in a prison of their own making, and women becoming more confident and able to approach men, which you would think would grant them hope and make them think that life isn't so bad, actually has the opposite effect on them.
That mentality of "if a girl's forward with me they must be fucking with me" is something that is usually ingrained pretty early and is really hard to break out of later in life. I can't say for how widespread this behavior is in general, but I went to a very urban public high school, and especially cruel girls who flirted with the social outcasts just to fuck with them(hey you're cute - haha jk like anyone would be interested in you) were absolutely a thing during my time there and it really messed some kids up.
This absolutely happened to me as well, I have specific memories from a 6th grade dance (so I was maybe 11?) - and I'm 40 now. I never hated women, but talk about destroying your confidence that interactions with the opposite sex are genuine and not just part of some plot to amuse themselves or their clique? What was probably a joke to them and forgotten before the end of the night reverberated through my social anxiety for YEARS.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Reinforcing the toxic-masculine ideal that men should confront psychological pain by powering through it; that acknowledging it and talking about it is a waste of time; is deeply counterproductive.
Ehhhhh. Ish. If acknowledging it and talking about it is part of the process that helps you get to the point where you can take the risk, then it's a good thing. But it can also be a way of reinforcing negative thought patterns. It's crucial to understand that being hurt emotionally by dating is not a failure state that happened to you because there's something wrong with you (or the world, from the incel point of view). It's part of the process for everyone.
Some of the anecdotes we're talking about involve bullying or manipulation. They might be common, but they shouldn't be normalized.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
You have to take a risk is really what happens. Like its true of all things in life but especially true in love life type stuff. You can not expect a partner to fall into your lap, and its fucking scary, being in love/infatuation is terrifying. But the alternative to just accept being alone forever is another kind of terror if you let it control you.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
Not really? Dating is inherently emotionally risky. If you fear the risk of rejection or being led on, your choices are pretty much deal with it or opt out.
What do you mean by "deal with it" though? The message often seems to be--and if this isn't your message then I won't argue with you as if it is--that to find a partner you need to try hard and often, and I think that's both factually incorrect and probably bad strategy for most people.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
You have to take a risk is really what happens. Like its true of all things in life but especially true in love life type stuff. You can not expect a partner to fall into your lap, and its fucking scary, being in love/infatuation is terrifying. But the alternative to just accept being alone forever is another kind of terror if you let it control you.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
Not really? Dating is inherently emotionally risky. If you fear the risk of rejection or being led on, your choices are pretty much deal with it or opt out.
What do you mean by "deal with it" though? The message often seems to be--and if this isn't your message then I won't argue with you as if it is--that to find a partner you need to try hard and often, and I think that's both factually incorrect and probably bad strategy for most people.
I don't know about hard or often, but it will involve trying.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Reinforcing the toxic-masculine ideal that men should confront psychological pain by powering through it; that acknowledging it and talking about it is a waste of time; is deeply counterproductive.
Ehhhhh. Ish. If acknowledging it and talking about it is part of the process that helps you get to the point where you can take the risk, then it's a good thing. But it can also be a way of reinforcing negative thought patterns. It's crucial to understand that being hurt emotionally by dating is not a failure state that happened to you because there's something wrong with you (or the world, from the incel point of view). It's part of the process for everyone.
Some of the anecdotes we're talking about involve bullying or manipulation. They might be common, but they shouldn't be normalized.
I don't think that acknowledging that bullying and manipulation is a universal part of growing up is "normalizing" it. Any strategy for effectively dealing with having been bullied growing up has to acknowledge its universality.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
You have to take a risk is really what happens. Like its true of all things in life but especially true in love life type stuff. You can not expect a partner to fall into your lap, and its fucking scary, being in love/infatuation is terrifying. But the alternative to just accept being alone forever is another kind of terror if you let it control you.
Everyone has traumatic stuff happen growing up with regards to romance or dating. Or even after we've grown up.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
Not really? Dating is inherently emotionally risky. If you fear the risk of rejection or being led on, your choices are pretty much deal with it or opt out.
What do you mean by "deal with it" though? The message often seems to be--and if this isn't your message then I won't argue with you as if it is--that to find a partner you need to try hard and often, and I think that's both factually incorrect and probably bad strategy for most people.
It's also a very American way of looking at it, based in the idea that romantic relationships start when one person explicitly asks another out on a date, and not as an organic outgrowth from other social contact. Americans are conditioned to treat dating as a social Rubicon that somebody has to bravely cross.
every person who doesn't like an acquired taste always seems to think everyone who likes it is faking it. it should be an official fallacy.
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As a person who has accounts on two dating apps, the general feel I get is that it's a cultural/tradition thing as opposed to only social anxiety. I have seen a great many dating profiles where the woman flat out says "Be a man and message me...I don't message guys first."
Incidentally, those are profiles I immediately pass on as I really don't care for continuing traditional gender roles.
One of the more infamous old-school incels (caamib/GovernmentsGetGirlfriends/thatincelblogger) definitely did express that his mother should have had pity sex with him.
Also on Steam and PSN: twobadcats
It's pretty nice and comprehensive. At some points you're given various options to choose from, and at others you can type in your responses. You can also choose whether or not to allow the survey takers to quote your answers.
The survey's results are also expected to be released in June of this year.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Not gonna lie, the one time that happened it was pretty amazing. Had some friends over for a game night, someone brought a friend of a friend, we hit it off. Next day I get a text, "Friend gave me your number, it seems like you could use a good time. I'm picking you up tomorrow at 7, deal with it." It only lasted a few months because she was moving pretty far away, but that was one of the best times I've ever had dating someone.
This was also the topic of a great episode of Reply All around a year ago. This was one of my favorite episodes of theirs.
My male single friends ask me about this as well, including my brother, because they're pretty sure that outside of a woman actually asking them out, they'll be single for the rest of their lives. They act like I won the lottery, or I've produced a unicorn and they'll actually say, "I didn't know that happened!" They're hoping I have some magic answer for how to get women to ask you out. I dunno, I went to a coffee bar and didn't realize I was getting hit on by the waitress for a year and a half, so she got frustrated and asked me out. I don't think that's a good recipe! Ultimately I refuse to fill their heads with platitudes of how there's someone for everyone or any such bullshit. I tell them that I did, in fact, win the lottery. I was comfortable at age 30 with the idea that I was probably going to be single for the rest of my life, and die alone. I had made peace with that. And then a miracle occurred. I don't pretend it will happen for you, or you, or you. It could, and that'd be great, but the idea that you're destined to find someone is bullshit. Also, coming to peace with who I was and where I was going, probably had a positive effect on my charisma and attitude, and it probably helped me.
I seriously hope women feel (and are) more and more empowered over time, because dating dudes you don't want to date just because they asked you out (and you feel obligated because roles or whatever), and not dating dudes you're actually interested in because you want them to ask you out, cannot possibly be a fun existence. I know being a shy dude who can't function worth a shit around women wasn't a fun existence for me.
My wife asking me out was the best thing that ever happened to me. And I'm not saying that because she turned out to be my future wife, I'm saying that because it took tons of pressure off of both of us, and the traditional dating rituals were a forgotten fucking memory. We skipped a lot of things and we got comfortable with each other ridiculously fast. It certainly did not hurt that, being a shy single guy for most of my life, being chased by a woman was a fantasy sure to never be fulfilled. It was amazing. I recommend the experience!
The irony with incels, of course, is that while women asking shy guys out would certainly deplete the pool of single shy men for incels to recruit from, the incel community itself makes the prospect of doing so kinda dangerous.
For the record, my story of asking out Strikor is similar but different. For me, I had had several men in my life that I basically threw myself at and they didn't react at all: my impression based on this was that I was incredibly unattractive. When I decided to pursue Strikor, I wanted everything to be clear so that he could reject me immediately instead of me moping around for months dropping hints and having my heart broken. We were long distance, so the first part was me asking to visit him, and I believe I actually used the words "I hope you understand that I'm visiting you in the hope that smooching might at some point occur. If smooching is off the table then I don't want to go."
I found out, after being happily married for some time, that at least one of the guys I relentlessly threw myself at (but never said "I like you and would be interested in smooching") never had a clue I was flirting. So that was interesting to know, if not really impacting on my life at that point.
I should probably add that Strikor and I had known each other causally through these boards for years, and at the time I started getting interested we had been playing SWTOR online together for like 6 months. Had he betrayed any Incel-like, or even niceguy-like tendencies in that time, me asking him out would never have happened.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Oh I can definitely see that. I was more referring to "shy guys" rather than incels. But then again, how the fuck does a woman know which one she's dealing with nowadays?
She doesn't, which is a massive part of the problem. As the quote goes:
That mentality of "if a girl's forward with me they must be fucking with me" is something that is usually ingrained pretty early and is really hard to break out of later in life. I can't say for how widespread this behavior is in general, but I went to a very urban public high school, and especially cruel girls who flirted with the social outcasts just to fuck with them(hey you're cute - haha jk like anyone would be interested in you) were absolutely a thing during my time there and it really messed some kids up.
Frustratingly, this disparity will continue to reinforce the current imbalance between dating behaviors that maximizes the representation of bad actors in the active dating population. Good men are not only afraid that women will laugh at them, they are afraid that women will fear them.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Its why Self depreciating humor is dangerous, at some point its less humor and flat out "i hate myself.
pleasepaypreacher.net
A lot of people need to be taught this directly, especially when growing up:
Self-deprecating humor is almost always bad for you socially. The *only* people it works for are people in situations where they are clearly and obviously in a position of social strength over everyone else (either through an enforced hierarchy, like being the boss, or because they're just some sort of 10/10 charisma superstar that everyone already loves). And it works for them because it actually calls attention to their strength by lampshading it.
Trying to use it to cover up weakness or insecurity just underlines the weakness and insecurity.
I haven't told this story to very many people.
When I was 9 years old, one of the kids who bullied me in grade school slipped me a note that said that one of the girls in my class "liked" me. Then he badgered me for a couple of days to go talk to her.
It might help to know that both he and that girl were a couple years older than me.
The combination of age difference, his history of bullying me, and the fact that I wasn't quite interested in girls yet, led me to believe that it was a prank.
Because that was my first experience receiving a signal that a girl was interested in me, I spent many of my teenage years suspicious towards any overture of romantic interest.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
I had a couple girls in jr high that somehow found my phone number and kept trying to get me to do things like meet them in the girls locker room naked. They were the only female contact I had at the time, so I kept taking their calls. This was after another girl had convinced me that what my (soon ex) girlfriend really wanted was an extremely graphic "love letter", which she even wrote for me to copy.
You should just force yourself to take risks anyway, which gets easier with repetition, or accept that not everyone has everything and this part just isn't for you. What Incels do is use this very common experience and build a very ill-advised self-image out of it, then weaponize it against both themselves and others until many lives are destroyed.
I’m pretty sure no one was saying that the right response to sexual bullying is to grow up and argue for legalized rape?
Like for my last couple years in highschool I hung out with some real assholes, like super big douchey fuckers and it made my last couple years of highschool misery, not that I noticed it at the time, I was hanging with my "friends" but we were miserable assholes who played off each other. Years removed from it I recognized what a negative influence those guys played on my self esteem and general social ability. Incel forums are like that writ large, just a pack of miserable assholes who get together and make each other miserable. And that's so hard to puncture because again self fulfilling prophecy.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Surely there are more options than just "play the numbers game/take risks" and "accept that you'll always be alone".
Worse, there are also manipulators who have agendae who get involved, using the platform as a means of indoctrination.
You have to take a risk is really what happens. Like its true of all things in life but especially true in love life type stuff. You can not expect a partner to fall into your lap, and its fucking scary, being in love/infatuation is terrifying. But the alternative to just accept being alone forever is another kind of terror if you let it control you.
Nothing risked, nothing gained.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Isn't the context of "take risks" here literally just, like, "be OK talking to women without assuming they are trying to hurt you"?
I'm not sure there is a way around that...
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Reinforcing the toxic-masculine ideal that men should confront psychological pain by powering through it; that acknowledging it and talking about it is a waste of time; is deeply counterproductive.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Terminating a self fulfilling prophecy or addictive behavior requires a social escape valve. Nobody is real interested in installing one.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
There is that too, there are bad actors in that pool as well. But again for me the scary thing about incel stories is how relatable they are before the outward woman hate. Like the sad story about being picked on, or being alone at social events. That's the real pain and hurt I've felt, and its not hard to see where they got to from where I was.
Its kind of like the scary thing about a car accident is how close you were to it being real bad, the scary thing about Incels is they aren't too far from any of us on a given bad day. All they needed was a nudge and as you said bad actors and wammo a new foot soldier in the woman hating army.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Not really? Dating is inherently emotionally risky. If you fear the risk of rejection or being led on, your choices are pretty much deal with it or opt out.
Ehhhhh. Ish. If acknowledging it and talking about it is part of the process that helps you get to the point where you can take the risk (or accept that you don't want to), then it's a good thing. But it can also be a way of reinforcing negative thought patterns. It's crucial to understand that being hurt emotionally by dating is not a failure state that happened to you because there's something wrong with you (or the world, from the incel point of view). It's part of the process for everyone.
At the same time, I find it incredibly hard to have much sympathy for them, because fuck dudes, you can literally define yourself any way you want on the web. You just have to want to.
This absolutely happened to me as well, I have specific memories from a 6th grade dance (so I was maybe 11?) - and I'm 40 now. I never hated women, but talk about destroying your confidence that interactions with the opposite sex are genuine and not just part of some plot to amuse themselves or their clique? What was probably a joke to them and forgotten before the end of the night reverberated through my social anxiety for YEARS.
Some of the anecdotes we're talking about involve bullying or manipulation. They might be common, but they shouldn't be normalized.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
What do you mean by "deal with it" though? The message often seems to be--and if this isn't your message then I won't argue with you as if it is--that to find a partner you need to try hard and often, and I think that's both factually incorrect and probably bad strategy for most people.
I don't know about hard or often, but it will involve trying.
I don't think that acknowledging that bullying and manipulation is a universal part of growing up is "normalizing" it. Any strategy for effectively dealing with having been bullied growing up has to acknowledge its universality.
It's also a very American way of looking at it, based in the idea that romantic relationships start when one person explicitly asks another out on a date, and not as an organic outgrowth from other social contact. Americans are conditioned to treat dating as a social Rubicon that somebody has to bravely cross.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.