French and assorted hanger on protests

CornKing

So these guys, the gilets jaunes [yellow jackets]



are protesting against this guy



because he decided his neo-liberal policy was to tax certain people for things they need
and cannot afford to do without to appeal to the environment lobby without thinking through the consequences.
What he is [was] taxing is fuel and people in rural areas are more affected by it.
Folk are also leaping onto the protests to protest against Macron's perceived arrogance against the French populace, his government and also as a bandwagon to be
anarchists [i.e smashing stuff] and political protest [smashing stuff also].

So now Paris looks like this



and even though Macron has back-tracked on the taxes after being chased off literally by protesters, they still want more things [because French protesters and anarchists].
Now Macron is busily going after students again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQ6EODXd8do

and also has called up the army to help around France. Also an old woman was killed by a police tear gas canister in Marseille.
Hundreds of arrests so far as well as copy-cat demonstrations in Brussels and elsewhere.

dispatch.o

People really hate taxes but was this just a kind of moment where people are really angry and needed a reason to break stuff? I am not French and do not understand why they would riot over this single issue.

tynic

Macron has quietly implemented a lot of really repressive bullshit under the guise of 'centrism' (funny how centrist populists always turn out to be right-wing-but-with-pretty-icing). Transforming the ongoing state of emergency into a set of 'business as usual' policies while nominally ending it was a direct attempt to more effectively limit the power of protest.
Not gonna be sorry if this ends up kicking his arse to the curb, but I am quite anxious about what might possibly come next.

Edit: two of the major things he did in his first year of governance were abolition of the solidarity tax on wealth (ISF), and the enactment of new anti-terrorism legislation. The former has been in place since 1982 and while it's been a policy detested by the right, has been broadly popular amongst the centre-left and left and held up as an example of France's distributive equality. To quote from someone who knows more than me (Didier Fassin)

In its most recent iteration, it was a progressive tax on capital paid by individuals and couples with assets above €1.3 million. The highest rate, for assets above €10 million, was 1.5 per cent, generating €5.2 billion in 2015, equivalent to almost 2 per cent of the state’s total tax revenue. This levy had only modest effects on the capital held by the wealthy: since 1988 the assets of the top 1 per cent have increased threefold and those of the top 0.1 per cent fivefold. However, from the exchequer’s point of view, it wasn’t a trifling sum, corresponding to twice the amount spent by the state on culture, and almost two-thirds of the justice department budget. Right-wing politicians and business lobby groups argued that the ISF resulted in an exodus of so-called tax refugees, though there was little evidence for this: in 2013, only 714 of the 330,000 people liable to pay the tax had left the country.

Macron also raised the so-called general social contribution (CSG) levied on income, which includes pensions, which saw a tax increase from 6.6 to 8.3 per cent on almost all pensions. So this impacted the elderly and middle to lower-middle classes negatively. This latest set of tax adjustments come on top of a bunch of readjustments of federal fiscal policies which benefit the rich at the expense of almost everyone else. He's also attempted to reform labour laws in ways that are extremely unpopular with unions, and the SNCF (national rail) (don't know how far this actually got)

The latter (the anti-terrorism legislation) has been used to give a huge extension to police powers and has been condemned by the UN Human Rights Council (but what hasn't, really). And he's made asylum seeking and non-EU immigration in general a lot more difficult. There's a lot going on, basically.

In terms of popularity,

16 per cent view Macron’s politics as beneficial to everyone, while 76 per cent believe they help only the upper classes

.

Bogart

That's a pretty sparse OP. What is this thread about, precisely? Just posting the latest updates as they happen? Discussing the specific demands of the groups protesting that you couldn't be bothered to Google and put in the OP so people could discuss them? A general French politics thread?

@CornKing a few images and a few sentences don't make for a very good discussion topic. What is the thread for, exactly?

Styrofoam Sammich

dispatch.o wrote: »

People really hate taxes but was this just a kind of moment where people are really angry and needed a reason to break stuff? I am not French and do not understand why they would riot over this single issue.

Being barely governable is a good way to ensure those who try do a good job.

CornKing

dispatch.o wrote: »

People really hate taxes but was this just a kind of moment where people are really angry and needed a reason to break stuff? I am not French and do not understand why they would riot over this single issue.

In rural areas if you have no public transport like in cities then you are penalised more harshly is my reckoning. And also protesting
against Macron's arrogance.

mrondeau

dispatch.o wrote: »

People really hate taxes but was this just a kind of moment where people are really angry and needed a reason to break stuff? I am not French and do not understand why they would riot over this single issue.

Shortly, and with the caveat I'm not French: they just got 10 years of service cuts, with all the effects anyone but a (European) liberal would expect, just saw even more tax cuts for the rich, and public transportation just got cut again.

Given that Macron was not elected because people liked his program so much as because when the choice is between a fascist and a non-fascist, the French people know what to do, and that all political parties are all in on more cuts and suffering...

CornKing

Bogart wrote: »

That's a pretty sparse OP. What is this thread about, precisely? Just posting the latest updates as they happen? Discussing the specific demands of the groups protesting that you couldn't be bothered to Google and put in the OP so people could discuss them? A general French politics thread?

@CornKing a few images and a few sentences don't make for a very good discussion topic. What is the thread for, exactly?

I guess the current protests, you may be right it doesn't exactly convey the current situation precisely, i'll edit the OP a bit more to reflect what it is about.

CornKing

accidental post.

Rchanen

tynic wrote: »

Macron has quietly implemented a lot of really repressive bullshit under the guise of 'centrism' (funny how centrist populists always turn out to be right-wing-but-with-pretty-icing). Transforming the ongoing state of emergency into a set of 'business as usual' policies while nominally ending it was a direct attempt to more effectively limit the power of protest.
Not gonna be sorry if this ends up kicking his arse to the curb, but I am quite anxious about what might possibly come next.

Edit: two of the major things he did in his first year of governance were abolition of the solidarity tax on wealth (ISF), and the enactment of new anti-terrorism legislation. The former has been in place since 1982 and while it's been a policy detested by the right, has been broadly popular amongst the centre-left and left and held up as an example of France's distributive equality. To quote from someone who knows more than me (Didier Fassin)

In its most recent iteration, it was a progressive tax on capital paid by individuals and couples with assets above €1.3 million. The highest rate, for assets above €10 million, was 1.5 per cent, generating €5.2 billion in 2015, equivalent to almost 2 per cent of the state’s total tax revenue. This levy had only modest effects on the capital held by the wealthy: since 1988 the assets of the top 1 per cent have increased threefold and those of the top 0.1 per cent fivefold. However, from the exchequer’s point of view, it wasn’t a trifling sum, corresponding to twice the amount spent by the state on culture, and almost two-thirds of the justice department budget. Right-wing politicians and business lobby groups argued that the ISF resulted in an exodus of so-called tax refugees, though there was little evidence for this: in 2013, only 714 of the 330,000 people liable to pay the tax had left the country.

Macron also raised the so-called general social contribution (CSG) levied on income, which includes pensions, which saw a tax increase from 6.6 to 8.3 per cent on almost all pensions. So this impacted the elderly and middle to lower-middle classes negatively. This latest set of tax adjustments come on top of a bunch of readjustments of federal fiscal policies which benefit the rich at the expense of almost everyone else. He's also attempted to reform labour laws in ways that are extremely unpopular with unions, and the SNCF (national rail) (don't know how far this actually got)

The latter (the anti-terrorism legislation) has been used to give a huge extension to police powers and has been condemned by the UN Human Rights Council (but what hasn't, really). And he's made asylum seeking and non-EU immigration in general a lot more difficult. There's a lot going on, basically.

In terms of popularity,

16 per cent view Macron’s politics as beneficial to everyone, while 76 per cent believe they help only the upper classes

.

Thanks Tynic. Had to awesome. Not for Macron going down the path of well basically "American Republican Party" but for you explaining why people would be pissed.

And yeah. I think trying to be the American Republican Party in France would kind of cheese people off.

Feral

It's really only comparable to what the US Republican party was 30 or 40 years ago, not what it is now. The current incarnation of the US Republican party is much closer to Marine Le Pen.

Rchanen

Feral wrote: »

It's really only comparable to what the US Republican party was 30 or 40 years ago, not what it is now. The current incarnation of the US Republican party is much closer to Marine Le Pen.

True.

Jean

Even by France's standards, Macron do come accross as really arrogant toward his opposition. Hollande and Sarkozy at least pretended to care about the regular people while Macron does not even bother pretending. That really does not help him.

He won by default because his opponent was Marine Le Pen. He does not have a mandate for making such broad changes in French society.

fedaykin666

I was trying to phone a business in Paris yesterday and it slowly dawned on me why no one was picking up. City grinding to a halt. One of France's great strengths is the political engagement of its populace to keep the fat cats in line through fear of action though. They need to seriously calculate "if I do this corrupt thing, will the people rise up/strike about it?".

Bogart

Jean wrote: »

Even by France's standards, Macron do come accross as really arrogant toward his opposition. Hollande and Sarkozy at least pretended to care about the regular people while Macron does not even bother pretending. That really does not help him.

He won by default because his opponent was Marine Le Pen. He does not have a mandate for making such broad changes in French society.

His opponent was Le Pen in the runoff but all the other parties put forward candidates as well and got mauled so badly they didn’t make the runoff.

TryCatcher

A new unofficial list of demands is already making the rounds:

https://twitter.com/spignal/status/1071004810214891520

Stanley Pignal is a reporter for The Economist.

The bad side of "no leaders" movements is that anybody can make up declarations for the movement so take it with a huge grain of salt. But:

• Cut taxes by half.
• Massive hiring of public servants.
• 40% SIMC (minimum wage) increase.
• Default on public debt.

....
This is Corbyn-tier levels of magical unicorn thinking. And that's without "leave the UN and NATO". Anyways, found a translated list on Reddit for the details.

Solar

I would very much question where that list comes from

Richy

Never fear, insightful and interesting analysis of French social and political events can always be found with... Pamela Anderson.

That wasn't a joke post. She actually has a good essay on the situation and the feelings of those involved. Because 2018 is the year we can learn more about the news from Baywatch than from the MSM.

Casual

TryCatcher wrote: »

A new unofficial list of demands is already making the rounds:

https://twitter.com/spignal/status/1071004810214891520

Stanley Pignal is a reporter for The Economist.

The bad side of "no leaders" movements is that anybody can make up declarations for the movement so take it with a huge grain of salt. But:

• Cut taxes by half.
• Massive hiring of public servants.
• 40% SIMC (minimum wage) increase.
• Default on public debt.

....
This is Corbyn-tier levels of magical unicorn thinking. And that's without "leave the UN and NATO". Anyways, found a translated list on Reddit for the details.

"We want to pay half the amount for twice as much stuff"

:rotate:

Solar

To be clear, these protests are very serious business. This could bring down the government, and the situation is bad. It is not merely about the fuel tax but rather because of a broad rejection of the consequences of neoliberal government policy which has left a lot of French people essentially behind.

I am curious what we will see. It wouldn't surprise me if the NF tried to build a successful campaign off the unrest and social unhappiness that we're seeing here.

Couscous

I have heard a lot of it has become antisemitic, but I also kind of just assume things in French become kind of antisemitic almost naturally.

Edit:
https://www.thejc.com/news/world/gilets-jaunes-protests-emmanuel-macron-france-president-antisemitism-dieudonne-1.473707

France’s gilets jaunes protests have come under scrutiny after notorious antisemites were seen participating, and one journalist said its online support was "riddled" anti-Jewish messages.

Among those participating in the latest round of protests were comedian Dieudonné M'bala M'bala, known for creating the quenelle gesture. He has convictions for antisemitism.

Dieudonné M'bala M'bala, centre, performing the quenelle gesture with fellow demonstrators (Photo: Twitter/Isabelle Kersimon)

Oh, come on. Anybody that uses that gesture is barely even trying.

Elsewhere, protestors waved placards expressing anti-Rothschild messages – often seen as a coded form of antisemitism.

I would figure a website called the Jewish Chronicle would have stopped putting "seen as a coded form of" when talking about anti-Rothschild messages at this point because they just are 99 times out of 100 at this point.

Veagle

Solar wrote: »

I would very much question where that list comes from

I lost the link I just saw, since Twitter's timeline is garbage, but would you believe it looks like the usual Russian agitators are involved? Shocking, I know.

Bogart

So with no leaders and no spokespeople exactly how is anyone supposed to work out what the fuck they want, other than lower fuel prices?

HamHamJ

So my understanding from reading The Economist during the election and since has been that Macron is making needed reforms to fix France's stagnant economy.

mrondeau

HamHamJ wrote: »

So my understanding from reading The Economist during the election and since has been that Macron is making needed reforms to fix France's stagnant economy.

That's, to put it mildly, garbage. More accurately, that's the garbage that has been tried since 2008, with predictable results.

Those "reforms" can be resumed as: transfer wealth to the rich, remove all labour right to make sure people have to obey their betters, and stop helping the poorest. Oh, also remove regulations.
Predictably, those "reforms" made things worst. There's a reason the FN is getting more popular: the other parties are promising to just keep digging.

Phillishere

mrondeau wrote: »

HamHamJ wrote: »

So my understanding from reading The Economist during the election and since has been that Macron is making needed reforms to fix France's stagnant economy.

That's, to put it mildly, garbage. More accurately, that's the garbage that has been tried since 2008, with predictable results.

Those "reforms" can be resumed as: transfer wealth to the rich, remove all labour right to make sure people have to obey their betters, and stop helping the poorest. Oh, also remove regulations.
Predictably, those "reforms" made things worst. There's a reason the FN is getting more popular: the other parties are promising to just keep digging.

Stagnant just means the money is sitting in communities and in people’s pockets, instead of flowing into the bank accounts of the rich as God intended.

PLA

Seems one of the larger drives of discontent is "eat the rich", so it could be worse.

Phillishere

PLA wrote: »

Seems one of the larger drives of discontent is "eat the rich", so it could be worse.

Trouble is, it looks like the Le Pen crowd is making common cause with the protestors while the government is responding with increasing aggression.

mrondeau

That's the big concern. All the parties except the FN (well, and Mélenchon) want to keep digging down.
Sure, the FN does not actually have a solution, but when you are down in the hole, if someone is promising to drill deeper, and someone else is promising to fill the hole with immigrants, and not-truly-Frenchs, well, at some point it becomes tempting.

TryCatcher

Phillishere wrote: »

PLA wrote: »

Seems one of the larger drives of discontent is "eat the rich", so it could be worse.

Trouble is, it looks like the Le Pen crowd is making common cause with the protestors while the government is responding with increasing aggression.

FN sees an endgame of forcing Macron to resign to have early elections, Le Pen gets elected and then Frexit happens.

All to an endgame of the destruction of the EU to have countries wage war to get rid of their male surplus as God intended.

Aldo

Richy wrote: »

Never fear, insightful and interesting analysis of French social and political events can always be found with... Pamela Anderson.

That wasn't a joke post. She actually has a good essay on the situation and the feelings of those involved. Because 2018 is the year we can learn more about the news from Baywatch than from the MSM.

Yeah, not sure about her defense of the violence some protestors used though. Not buying that it is a response to formalised violence and directed against the elite. Especially considering how unorganized the whole thing is... Lets not assume that everyone involved is there for noble purposes.

Reporting in from Holland, where there's also yellow jackets (called 'gelehesjesprotesteerders' because sure why not) who seem to be coming straight from the greasy underbelly of Facebook comment threads and other usual suspects. That, or our neoliberal government has done a great job marginalising all form of protest as violent lunatics.

Edit; no wait, spoke too soon. Dutch politicians across the spectrum are now saying they understand the yellow jackets. The MP even said that "we all are wearing a yellow jacket". Summarized (Dutch) here https://nos.nl/artikel/2262771-nederlandse-politici-dragen-gele-hesjes-warm-hart-toe.html

Styrofoam Sammich

HamHamJ wrote: »

So my understanding from reading The Economist during the election and since has been that Macron is making needed reforms to fix France's stagnant economy.

That sounds like the Economist

Unknown

This content has been removed.

TryCatcher

Some basic analysis of the protests (not the entire chain, but it covers the main points):

https://twitter.com/greenhousenyt/status/1071767217417715713

https://twitter.com/greenhousenyt/status/1071767253341888512

https://twitter.com/greenhousenyt/status/1071767395704934401

Steven Greenhouse is a former NYT writer and author.

France has an stagnant economy, but the way Macron handled it is so tone deaf and bone headed that it just made the country less attractive to investors. And, you know, people died, got injured and jailed. The thread does come up with some ways that the reforms could have been handled in a politically feasible way, like coupling the gas taxes with tax refunds.

Styrofoam Sammich

Leftists have been screaming about the danger of this pro business austerity stuff while the fascists are messaging to workers

TryCatcher

Styrofoam Sammich wrote: »

Leftists have been screaming about the danger of this pro business austerity stuff while the fascists are messaging to workers

The big brain centrists not changing course just guarantees authoritarians getting into power over and over again. Hell, that's how Putin got in on the first place.

Solar

The EU in general is concerningly pro-austerity, it's caused a lot of problems I think.

Incenjucar

Solar wrote: »

The EU in general is concerningly pro-austerity, it's caused a lot of problems I think.

Forcing other nations into austerity a really effective way to gain power in the long run. It's pretty remarkable to me that it's not treated more like declaring economic war.

Phillishere

Incenjucar wrote: »

Solar wrote: »

The EU in general is concerningly pro-austerity, it's caused a lot of problems I think.

Forcing other nations into austerity a really effective way to gain power in the long run. It's pretty remarkable to me that it's not treated more like declaring economic war.

The trend in Western governments since the 1980s is to see a nation's economies solely through the lens of economic inputs while viewing any direct support of citizens as an immoral policy that degrades those economic inputs. It became immoral to help people out, while the blind pursuit of greed was seen as a public good. To the extent that this view ever had any connection to reality or morality, it is clear that the wealthy and corporations learned how to game the numbers while using the lessening government protections to coerce their workforces to accept more limited benefits and wages.

Once you got to the point where young people had to live at home while working full-time and even seniors with pensions were sentenced to grinding poverty (and the ones without literally end up homeless and starving), you had the foundations for a fascist resurgence.

mrondeau

Just so it's clear, the EU is not pro-austerity. The national governments that controls the EU are pro-austerity.
They simply use the EU as a way of deflecting the blame for the policies they wanted to implement all along.

Solar

Widespread anti-austerity sentiment has been combined with growing anti-immigration sentiment in far-right parties to basically form a kind of social... nationalist...

Hmmmm...