Basically every form of accountability we ask of the police, but not made toothless by a corrupt union.
I mean I don't want to replace the police with the police again. Isn't that what these protests are about? Young black men being summarily executed by the authority? Because from where I'm sitting that's exactly what just happened this morning.
Well, then you know a whole lot more about the situation than anyone I trust who was there (its a short list, and not particularly well formed, but is basically people who have been motioned is this thread as residents of the area) seems to know.
Brody on
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Basically every form of accountability we ask of the police, but not made toothless by a corrupt union.
I mean I don't want to replace the police with the police again. Isn't that what these protests are about? Young black men being summarily executed by the authority? Because from where I'm sitting that's exactly what just happened this morning.
Basically every form of accountability we ask of the police, but not made toothless by a corrupt union.
I mean I don't want to replace the police with the police again. Isn't that what these protests are about? Young black men being summarily executed by the authority? Because from where I'm sitting that's exactly what just happened this morning.
Well, then you know a whole lot more about the situation than anyone I trust who was there (its a short list, and not particularly well formed, but is basically people who have been motioned is this thread as residents of the area) seems to know.
I mean I won’t pretend to know what happened here or have anything but questions. But from where I’m sitting, which is nowhere near the CHOP, this looks a lot like every questionable police shooting ever, only with even less accountability.
Like, it took three weeks to get there.
So yeah, somebody needs to come up with answers, they need to be the right answers, and they better seem credible.
And excuses aren’t gonna work.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
It’s no less valid an interpretation than ”it was a drive-by” or “capitalism did it”
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
I'm saying a situation where self-appointed "security" is shooting at people is no better than the police doing it.
Its better than being unguarded sheep while the wolves are prowling.
I mean that’s literally a David Grossman training line.
Were the guys that opened fire CHOP security or not? Regardless of the stated answer, how do we know? How do we verify? Was anybody filming them to ensure they were acting appropriately? Is there video of the “attempted drive by?” If no shots were fired from the vehicle when the CHOP security (or not CHOP security) opened fire, how did they know it was an attempted drive by? Was this a proper use of force? Who the hell was even involved, on both sides of it?
These are all questions we would be asking of a police shooting, and we damn well need to ask the same here. Otherwise we’ve potentially replaced the police with something even less accountable. Or more violent. Or both.
I hope I don’t need to bend over backwards to establish myself as an ally here. I’m coming from a place of support. But man, if this doesn’t look like a serious problem then I don’t know what to tell you.
Edit: And I fully understand that the answers to all these questions may come throughout the day. But we better hope that they’re good answers.
Yes Id like to know those things too but it doesnt change at the end of the day what the options are. The police have abandoned a community firmly in the sights of a national white supremacist movement. Their options are then to either take measures to protect themselves from violent men or to not so so.
A lot of what you are saying is the exact reasoning right wingers use in brandishing weapons in their communities as well. And I thought CHOP kicked out the police wasn't that the whole point? They weren't wanted there any longer and its now under community control?
I think the difference between brandishing guns in service of white supremacy is somewhat different than branding them in defense against it man
The problem here is your assumption of who was shooting and why. Which again is the same thing that right wingers and even the police use to justify bad actions themselves.
The facts have to come out here, but I'm not happy a private security force opened fire on a car, and I want some accountability for that, one person is dead the other in critical condition, and we don't know why, that's bad.
There are two points being discussed that shouldnt be conflated like this, the specific shooting, and the presence of armed protest-aligned groups to act as defense. Im wholly in favor of the latter and while Id like to see more information on the former it seems so far to have been self defense.
You betray some historical ignorance though when you say my rhetoric is right wing. The necessity of community based self defense due to complacency or complicity on the part of the police has been a thread through minority struggles for far longer than either of us have been around, and at least in the modern era a core difference between liberals and leftists.
While I agree in general, the bolded is quite literally the identical excuse used to band up, get Cletus and Skeeter together, and take care of that feller down the end of the road. After all, the police wouldn't do anything, so the community had to step in. One can, of course, say "but our motivations are good!", and they may well be, but again this would be a sentiment echoed by your counterparts.
I think its fairly grotesque that people keep comparing minority and civil rights protest communities defending themselves to their charicatures of white supremacist mobs
I think the difference here is one of "take care of that feller down the end of the road" and "defend against threats approaching us". Its also basically the exact same problem we have with the police, just Cletus and Skeeter don't have the benefit of Qualified Immunity (although if the jury is rigged, they might as well have).
The jury is generally rigged.
That said, I agree; there is self-defense, then there is "I was defending myself!", aka "He's coming right for us!" Without exceedingly well-codified standards, however, the latter can be disguised as the former, and I am exceedingly reluctant to give that any more cover than it already regrettably has.
Basically every form of accountability we ask of the police, but not made toothless by a corrupt union.
I mean I don't want to replace the police with the police again. Isn't that what these protests are about? Young black men being summarily executed by the authority? Because from where I'm sitting that's exactly what just happened this morning.
I thought we didnt know what happened man
We know a young black man is dead, and another in critical condition, and the story that has not been corrected to the best my knowledge was that security forces at chop are the reason they are dead. Walks like a duck.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Basically every form of accountability we ask of the police, but not made toothless by a corrupt union.
I mean I don't want to replace the police with the police again. Isn't that what these protests are about? Young black men being summarily executed by the authority? Because from where I'm sitting that's exactly what just happened this morning.
I thought we didnt know what happened man
We know a young black man is dead, and another in critical condition, and the story that has not been corrected to the best my knowledge was that security forces at chop are the reason they are dead. Walks like a duck.
Security forces just opening up on a car because it matches a description from a prior drive by woukd represent a major departure from how theyve behaved for several weeks now.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
And I just want to clarify a little bit. I'm not trying to say that its not a fucking travesty that this young man died. I'm not saying that his family doesn't deserve to know what happened, more even than that the community deserves to know. I'm not trying to brush past it, or over it.
But its important that we know the real reason, not the one that we occam's razor up for ourselves. If it turns out that CHOP 'security' opened fire on the vehicle because it looked like one they thought had been used for a drive-by earlier, than I'll be right with you on accountability for the shooters. But I also worry that SPD will use this as a chance to crack down and kick everyone out, obscuring any answers that they themselves don't give, and I don't really trust their reporting re:CHOP.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Basically every form of accountability we ask of the police, but not made toothless by a corrupt union.
I mean I don't want to replace the police with the police again. Isn't that what these protests are about? Young black men being summarily executed by the authority? Because from where I'm sitting that's exactly what just happened this morning.
I thought we didnt know what happened man
We don't. Which has always been part of the problem has it not?
I'm saying a situation where self-appointed "security" is shooting at people is no better than the police doing it.
Not when they're actively being shot at. I'm perfectly fine with armed security firing back when fired upon, assuming they take precautions to prevent collateral damage and innocent lives. So far it looks like that's what's happened: armed security disabled the shooters in their vehicle with sharpshooting and then medics immediately treated them and got them to a hospital. If were police instead of armed security, they would have sprayed the car down with dozens of bullets, potentially harming people nearby, then left them to rot in the car for a while before even attempting any sort of medical aid.
Is there a claim anywhere that they found a weapon in the vehicle?
King5 article I was reading said police chief Best said the signs the vehicle was tampered with were "abundantly clear." She doesn't go into detail on whether that means they found or didn't find weapons, and, regardless, depending on whether you believe her is going to be entirely up to whether you think the police are being unbiased in their assessment.
Ofc there are signs someone else was in the car, people tried to treat the occupants, removed them, and drove them to the Hospital.
Right...but this is specifically in response to the question of "did they find any evidence in the vehicle." She basically dodged the question saying that the vehicle was tampered with.
As for other sources saying anything about finding weapons in the vehicle, no idea. Going through some of the livestreams when the event happened, and things aren't exactly clear to me either. At this point, all we can do is wait for more information. To do anything else is to venture into speculation.
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I'm saying a situation where self-appointed "security" is shooting at people is no better than the police doing it.
Not when they're actively being shot at. I'm perfectly fine with armed security firing back when fired upon, assuming they take precautions to prevent collateral damage and innocent lives. So far it looks like that's what's happened: armed security disabled the shooters in their vehicle with sharpshooting and then medics immediately treated them and got them to a hospital. If were police instead of armed security, they would have sprayed the car down with dozens of bullets, potentially harming people nearby, then left them to rot in the car for a while before even attempting any sort of medical aid.
Is there a claim anywhere that they found a weapon in the vehicle?
King5 article I was reading said police chief Best said the signs the vehicle was tampered with were "abundantly clear." She doesn't go into detail on whether that means they found or didn't find weapons, and, regardless, depending on whether you believe her is going to be entirely up to whether you think the police are being unbiased in their assessment.
Ofc there are signs someone else was in the car, people tried to treat the occupants, removed them, and drove them to the Hospital.
Right...but this is specifically in response to the question of "did they find any evidence in the vehicle." She basically dodged the question saying that the vehicle was tampered with.
As for other sources saying anything about finding weapons in the vehicle, no idea. Going through some of the livestreams when the event happened, and things aren't exactly clear to me either. At this point, all we can do is wait for more information. To do anything else is to venture into speculation.
I guess this is what I've been trying to say as well, but I'm not sure if I've done a particularly good job at communicating.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Hacksaw on
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AtomikaLive fast and get fucked or whateverRegistered Userregular
People don’t seem to realize Cal Anderson Park is, like, the Seattle hub for drug exchanges and tweaker hangouts
luv 2 execute black kids and call it "expert marksmanship"
Aioua on
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
People don’t seem to realize Cal Anderson Park is, like, the Seattle hub for drug exchanges and tweaker hangouts
Cap Hill is not a nice place, especially at night
Yeah, I mean I remember walking a couple blocks south of there up either Broadway or 12th (forget) once upon a time and seeing what I will always believe was a straight up corner re-up like something out of The Wire. In the middle of the day.
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
And I mean, I get that. I know that this has been a problem in Seattle even before these protests (for instance, Proud Boys and 3%'ers starting shit at Sounders games during the Iron Front debacle), but...it sounds like this was a Black teenager who was killed? Not that there aren't any Black folks in with the Proud Boys or Boogaloos, for some reason these groups that are tightly associated with white supremacy still manage to attract some minorities. But it just makes me less likely to accept that as the story here. Not just offhand.
mcdermott on
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
Yeah it sounds like a "no," in which case I think your first comment is really bad, here. Like, I seriously thought you were parodying someone. To think that this is seriously what people are saying...
Yeah it sounds like a "no," in which case I think your first comment is really bad, here. Like, I seriously thought you were parodying someone. To think that this is seriously what people are saying...
Yeah it sounds like a "no," in which case I think your first comment is really bad, here. Like, I seriously thought you were parodying someone. To think that this is seriously what people are saying...
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Why should we believe random sources when frequently sources at these times are often repeating rumors that often prove to be untrue?
Edit: Like that happens with nearly every shooting to the point where there are copy paste lists of common things you should not believe until confirmed later.
Couscous on
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Why should we believe random sources when frequently sources at these times are often repeating rumors that often prove to be untrue?
Edit: Like that happens with nearly every shooting to the point where there are copy paste lists of common things you should not believe until confirmed later.
Believe what you want. I'm telling you what I've heard.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
edited June 2020
Is Pike and 12th street thoroughly blocked off right now? Like, how hard is it to get onto 12th headed toward the Precinct building?
Brody on
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Have you heard if they recovered a weapon from the car?
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Have you heard if they recovered a weapon from the car?
One source told me two pistols were retrieved and disarmed. No pictures provided.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I'm not really familiar with the area, but if you watch Omari's stream from last night, after the two kids were shot (he was streaming before that, talking about shots being fired, then went inside for the night, and came back out when he heard another round of significant gunfire) around 28 minutes he shows the Jeep they were in (its relatively graphic), and it looks like well past Pike street heading north on 12th. The people there were saying the jeep drove past/through the barricade, or maybe the tent area over on the side, but its not really clear how barricaded that street entrance is?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
I will say this, even if this shooting is justified and even if there is media in favor of that justification, the CHOP does lack the "legitimate" media support to get that story out there. When the police kill somebody, they have an entire PR arm that the mainstream media outlets listen to that they can use to present their version of things, including any exculpatory evidence they have. But, like, I'm pretty sure I'd have to scour social media to find any real coverage of what actually happened here aside from ST's "big ol' question mark" of a story.
I suspect that a lack of care in documenting and preserving evidence was an issue here as well...ideally you'd want an uncut video showing the shooting, then approaching the car, then the recovered guns. Absent that, you're likely going to have some trouble getting people to believe your story, even more so than the cops do. But even if you have that, how do you get it into the media? So yeah, it's an issue.
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
It was the same night. There were two shooting events last night.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
Take it up with the folks who guard the CHOP. I don't think they're going to care what a bunch of white people tsk tsk-ing from behind the safety of their computer monitors think about this whole thing.
I will say this, even if this shooting is justified and even if there is media in favor of that justification, the CHOP does lack the "legitimate" media support to get that story out there. When the police kill somebody, they have an entire PR arm that the mainstream media outlets listen to that they can use to present their version of things, including any exculpatory evidence they have. But, like, I'm pretty sure I'd have to scour social media to find any real coverage of what actually happened here aside from ST's "big ol' question mark" of a story.
I suspect that a lack of care in documenting and preserving evidence was an issue here as well...ideally you'd want an uncut video showing the shooting, then approaching the car, then the recovered guns. Absent that, you're likely going to have some trouble getting people to believe your story, even more so than the cops do. But even if you have that, how do you get it into the media? So yeah, it's an issue.
You social-media it, and spread the word that way? Assuming this was actually in any way a good thing that happened and they had good evidence.
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
Take it up with the folks who guard the CHOP. I don't think they're going to care what a bunch of white people tsk tsk-ing from behind the safety of their computer monitors think about this whole thing.
Neither do cops. That's the problem.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
Take it up with the folks who guard the CHOP. I don't think they're going to care what a bunch of white people tsk tsk-ing from behind the safety of their computer monitors think about this whole thing.
Neither do cops. That's the problem.
The cops don't care what anyone who isn't a cop thinks. The people of the CHOP are trying to prioritize the voices of BIPOC and asking white folks to, for once, take a sideline seat when matters concerning the area come up. This thread over the past few pages has been a great example of why that continues to be a struggle for so many.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
edited June 2020
Oh give it a rest. You’re as white as the people you’re disagreeing with. So don’t speak for BIPOC.
knitdan on
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
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Well, then you know a whole lot more about the situation than anyone I trust who was there (its a short list, and not particularly well formed, but is basically people who have been motioned is this thread as residents of the area) seems to know.
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Steam: Korvalain
I thought we didnt know what happened man
I mean I won’t pretend to know what happened here or have anything but questions. But from where I’m sitting, which is nowhere near the CHOP, this looks a lot like every questionable police shooting ever, only with even less accountability.
Like, it took three weeks to get there.
So yeah, somebody needs to come up with answers, they need to be the right answers, and they better seem credible.
And excuses aren’t gonna work.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
You did note the part where I said "I agree"?
The jury is generally rigged.
That said, I agree; there is self-defense, then there is "I was defending myself!", aka "He's coming right for us!" Without exceedingly well-codified standards, however, the latter can be disguised as the former, and I am exceedingly reluctant to give that any more cover than it already regrettably has.
We know a young black man is dead, and another in critical condition, and the story that has not been corrected to the best my knowledge was that security forces at chop are the reason they are dead. Walks like a duck.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Seems like its just ok when you speculate then.
But its important that we know the real reason, not the one that we occam's razor up for ourselves. If it turns out that CHOP 'security' opened fire on the vehicle because it looked like one they thought had been used for a drive-by earlier, than I'll be right with you on accountability for the shooters. But I also worry that SPD will use this as a chance to crack down and kick everyone out, obscuring any answers that they themselves don't give, and I don't really trust their reporting re:CHOP.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
We don't. Which has always been part of the problem has it not?
Right...but this is specifically in response to the question of "did they find any evidence in the vehicle." She basically dodged the question saying that the vehicle was tampered with.
As for other sources saying anything about finding weapons in the vehicle, no idea. Going through some of the livestreams when the event happened, and things aren't exactly clear to me either. At this point, all we can do is wait for more information. To do anything else is to venture into speculation.
I guess this is what I've been trying to say as well, but I'm not sure if I've done a particularly good job at communicating.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
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Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Cap Hill is not a nice place, especially at night
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
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Yeah, I mean I remember walking a couple blocks south of there up either Broadway or 12th (forget) once upon a time and seeing what I will always believe was a straight up corner re-up like something out of The Wire. In the middle of the day.
And I mean, I get that. I know that this has been a problem in Seattle even before these protests (for instance, Proud Boys and 3%'ers starting shit at Sounders games during the Iron Front debacle), but...it sounds like this was a Black teenager who was killed? Not that there aren't any Black folks in with the Proud Boys or Boogaloos, for some reason these groups that are tightly associated with white supremacy still manage to attract some minorities. But it just makes me less likely to accept that as the story here. Not just offhand.
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
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I know people who are saying significantly worse.
That doesn't reassure me
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You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Edit: Like that happens with nearly every shooting to the point where there are copy paste lists of common things you should not believe until confirmed later.
Believe what you want. I'm telling you what I've heard.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Have you heard if they recovered a weapon from the car?
One source told me two pistols were retrieved and disarmed. No pictures provided.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
I suspect that a lack of care in documenting and preserving evidence was an issue here as well...ideally you'd want an uncut video showing the shooting, then approaching the car, then the recovered guns. Absent that, you're likely going to have some trouble getting people to believe your story, even more so than the cops do. But even if you have that, how do you get it into the media? So yeah, it's an issue.
It was the same night. There were two shooting events last night.
Take it up with the folks who guard the CHOP. I don't think they're going to care what a bunch of white people tsk tsk-ing from behind the safety of their computer monitors think about this whole thing.
You social-media it, and spread the word that way? Assuming this was actually in any way a good thing that happened and they had good evidence.
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Neither do cops. That's the problem.
The cops don't care what anyone who isn't a cop thinks. The people of the CHOP are trying to prioritize the voices of BIPOC and asking white folks to, for once, take a sideline seat when matters concerning the area come up. This thread over the past few pages has been a great example of why that continues to be a struggle for so many.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades