Beauty and emptiness are artist choices utilised by BotW. Art is subjective, so there’s no definitive answer.
For example I thought it worked brilliantly for the map design, but I wasn’t a fan of the broken piano pieces, though I understand they’re supposed to be full of gaps, to link the audio with the broken world.
I’d be ok with weapon durability if you could repair them, even if it meant they reforged with weaker stats each time. Then take it a step further and forge broken weapons together to get new types of weapons not normally found by common enemies.
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I think that, for an "open world" Zelda game, there's a lot of dead space that makes the world feel big, but also empty.
I imagine that this is an "individual results may vary" kind of thing - there are, objectively, lots of empty spaces, but the density of stuff worked very well for me. I think that if it were denser, I would feel like there was constantly stuff trying to grab my attention. One of the things I love best about this game - maybe the thing - is just going for a walk. Looking at pretty landscapes, gliding off of mountains, etc. I feel like the current pacing of the content gives me a breather in between bouts of focused activity, and gives me time to get excited about whatever I'm going to see over the next hill.
I was constantly looking for destinations of where to get things or give the gameplay a point, which is my thing more or less. It doesn't mean I didn't like the environments, or think they were beautiful, but after about 60ish hours I was done with the random exploration and wanted to get somewhere, and that made the space in between here and there an obstruction, not a bonus. In most Zelda games before this, even if there was an open space, and even if it was large, the amount of time to get from here to there is much shorter, and I actually liked that feeling that Hyrule is a much smaller space, with more densely packed things. That plus most enemies in BotW not giving anything, and instead taking something, along with almost all of the treasure chests giving only a temporary item (not ignoring that older games commonly gave consumables or rupees) made the destinations seem less interesting because a fight was always a net loss unless on the off chance you might get a better weapon in exchange for a single clearly inferior one. Like, sure, you might get a few weapons from a group of enemies, but at a certain point, they were, lets be honest, trash. And if you couldn't use a shield, the usefulness was cut at least in half (at least for me). So trying to effectively fight became a matter of throwing away almost anything that wasn't one-handed. That meant the destinations I started the game seeking out I was actively avoiding to keep weapons I actually wanted in exchange for not getting pointless treasure, which isn't how I prefer to play LoZ games.
My other issue, almost certainly, is what other open world games provide. In terms of city-based games like Saint's Row or even the Assassin's Creed games (up to at least Syndicate), there's always a group of enemies or people or treasures or whatever to make the entire world feel very active. Even the wilderness of ACIII or the seas of Black Flag/Rogue were populated by ships and fights that gave useful resources, and were fun to engage in. In Oblivion/Skyrim/Fallout 3 or 4, the world is vast but there's always a monster or a treasure or an area or something just over the next rise, and a compass constantly leading you to another thing to do, and a bunch of ingredients to harvest between here and there. I remember the actual dead spaces in those games far less because of the frequency between things to find. The environments are fantastic, beautiful, and incidental to my experience.
All of which is a lot of words to say that it's very, very subjective.
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I think that, for an "open world" Zelda game, there's a lot of dead space that makes the world feel big, but also empty.
I imagine that this is an "individual results may vary" kind of thing - there are, objectively, lots of empty spaces, but the density of stuff worked very well for me. I think that if it were denser, I would feel like there was constantly stuff trying to grab my attention. One of the things I love best about this game - maybe the thing - is just going for a walk. Looking at pretty landscapes, gliding off of mountains, etc. I feel like the current pacing of the content gives me a breather in between bouts of focused activity, and gives me time to get excited about whatever I'm going to see over the next hill.
I was constantly looking for destinations of where to get things or give the gameplay a point, which is my thing more or less. It doesn't mean I didn't like the environments, or think they were beautiful, but after about 60ish hours I was done with the random exploration and wanted to get somewhere, and that made the space in between here and there an obstruction, not a bonus. In most Zelda games before this, even if there was an open space, and even if it was large, the amount of time to get from here to there is much shorter, and I actually liked that feeling that Hyrule is a much smaller space, with more densely packed things. That plus most enemies in BotW not giving anything, and instead taking something, along with almost all of the treasure chests giving only a temporary item (not ignoring that older games commonly gave consumables or rupees) made the destinations seem less interesting because a fight was always a net loss unless on the off chance you might get a better weapon in exchange for a single clearly inferior one. Like, sure, you might get a few weapons from a group of enemies, but at a certain point, they were, lets be honest, trash. And if you couldn't use a shield, the usefulness was cut at least in half (at least for me). So trying to effectively fight became a matter of throwing away almost anything that wasn't one-handed. That meant the destinations I started the game seeking out I was actively avoiding to keep weapons I actually wanted in exchange for not getting pointless treasure, which isn't how I prefer to play LoZ games.
My other issue, almost certainly, is what other open world games provide. In terms of city-based games like Saint's Row or even the Assassin's Creed games (up to at least Syndicate), there's always a group of enemies or people or treasures or whatever to make the entire world feel very active. Even the wilderness of ACIII or the seas of Black Flag/Rogue were populated by ships and fights that gave useful resources, and were fun to engage in. In Oblivion/Skyrim/Fallout 3 or 4, the world is vast but there's always a monster or a treasure or an area or something just over the next rise, and a compass constantly leading you to another thing to do, and a bunch of ingredients to harvest between here and there. I remember the actual dead spaces in those games far less because of the frequency between things to find. The environments are fantastic, beautiful, and incidental to my experience.
All of which is a lot of words to say that it's very, very subjective.
I completely understand the reason you didn't like BotW and it makes sense to me. Somewhat like how I look at some games that are sandbox and go, "eh nope, not for me". I'm glad that there are games that do fit everybody's happy spots and since you said you never played the portable Zelda games and you liked the older Zelda games, you might want to try out Link's Awakening. It was my first Zelda game that I played (and beat) by myself.
you know what else I'd like? A way to mute the sheikah sensor (or whatever it's called).
You can turn it off? Unless you mean you want to be able to have it still on, just as the icon on the bottom, but not making any noise, which I could see that being real nice.
Yes, this. I find it horribly annoying (especially when you find a shrine with a puzzle to get to it or a bunch of enemies).
I completely understand the reason you didn't like BotW and it makes sense to me. Somewhat like how I look at some games that are sandbox and go, "eh nope, not for me". I'm glad that there are games that do fit everybody's happy spots and since you said you never played the portable Zelda games and you liked the older Zelda games, you might want to try out Link's Awakening. It was my first Zelda game that I played (and beat) by myself.
I'm considering that one on the Switch. I played (in order of playing them): Link to the Past, The Legend of Zelda, Zelda II, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, A Link Between Worlds (the only portable game I've played), and Breath of the Wild.
In order of best to worst, I'd list them as: Link to the Past, Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, A Link Between Worlds, Breath of the Wild, Majora's Mask.
I do feel like it's important to note that even as much as I complain about BotW, I don't spend 120 hours in a game that doesn't have some measure of enjoyment for me. It's just nowhere near the top of my Zelda game list, or even my top games of all time list.
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When you get used to things the Pro Hud Mode is absolutely the way to go.
Forgot just how cool and chaotic that last bit in the Sword Trials was
That room with the Walking Guardian, Flying Guardian, and Turret Guardian is really fun! As was the final room with the lynel, a ton of modblins on horseback, and the Guardian Turret. Some of those moblins had really powerful weapons too because I assume they said "fuck it, its the final room so whatever gear you get at that point is irrelevant." Gotta find that Korok Mask on the way out now.
I completely understand the reason you didn't like BotW and it makes sense to me. Somewhat like how I look at some games that are sandbox and go, "eh nope, not for me". I'm glad that there are games that do fit everybody's happy spots and since you said you never played the portable Zelda games and you liked the older Zelda games, you might want to try out Link's Awakening. It was my first Zelda game that I played (and beat) by myself.
I'm considering that one on the Switch. I played (in order of playing them): Link to the Past, The Legend of Zelda, Zelda II, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, A Link Between Worlds (the only portable game I've played), and Breath of the Wild.
In order of best to worst, I'd list them as: Link to the Past, Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, A Link Between Worlds, Breath of the Wild, Majora's Mask.
I do feel like it's important to note that even as much as I complain about BotW, I don't spend 120 hours in a game that doesn't have some measure of enjoyment for me. It's just nowhere near the top of my Zelda game list, or even my top games of all time list.
I'd say wait for it to go on sale for around $40 or at least $50 if you are buying it to play it since it is a smaller game.
I completely understand the reason you didn't like BotW and it makes sense to me. Somewhat like how I look at some games that are sandbox and go, "eh nope, not for me". I'm glad that there are games that do fit everybody's happy spots and since you said you never played the portable Zelda games and you liked the older Zelda games, you might want to try out Link's Awakening. It was my first Zelda game that I played (and beat) by myself.
I'm considering that one on the Switch. I played (in order of playing them): Link to the Past, The Legend of Zelda, Zelda II, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, A Link Between Worlds (the only portable game I've played), and Breath of the Wild.
In order of best to worst, I'd list them as: Link to the Past, Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, A Link Between Worlds, Breath of the Wild, Majora's Mask.
I do feel like it's important to note that even as much as I complain about BotW, I don't spend 120 hours in a game that doesn't have some measure of enjoyment for me. It's just nowhere near the top of my Zelda game list, or even my top games of all time list.
I agree with the thrust of this (though my Zelda ordering would be different). BotW wasn't my GotY that year, Horizon: Zero Dawn was. Doesn't mean I didn't love and cherish BoTW, but I am clearly not on the same wave length as people who espouse ideas like BotW being better than Link to the Past (which, to clearly state my bias, is one of only a handful of games who's position in my head canon Game Hall of Fame I consider to be unassailable).
I think I said this at the time but BotW is a good start, but I hope the sequel greatly fleshes out the game. Keep the amazing exploration, the mysterious sub-narritives, the beautiful world, etc...but flesh that scaffolding out with more Zelda.
I think that, for an "open world" Zelda game, there's a lot of dead space that makes the world feel big, but also empty.
I imagine that this is an "individual results may vary" kind of thing - there are, objectively, lots of empty spaces, but the density of stuff worked very well for me. I think that if it were denser, I would feel like there was constantly stuff trying to grab my attention. One of the things I love best about this game - maybe the thing - is just going for a walk. Looking at pretty landscapes, gliding off of mountains, etc. I feel like the current pacing of the content gives me a breather in between bouts of focused activity, and gives me time to get excited about whatever I'm going to see over the next hill.
Yeah, if i had the spare space and my joycons were working properly, i'd reinstall BoTW just so i could tool around on the Master Cycle for fun. It's still a great feeling game for sheer joy of exploration.
Another reason for buying something and not playing it if you're on a forum like this or always on social media is aggressively bemoaning about said unplayed games in ones backlog when the opportunity presents itself. People need to know.
I'd say wait for it to go on sale for around $40 or at least $50 if you are buying it to play it since it is a smaller game.
Is there . . . another reason to buy a game other than to play it?
You know how when you write something (or think something) it makes perfect sense at the time? You don't? Oh well... I do this regularly and this is one of those times.
I meant to say that I don't want you buying it then coming back and saying, "Betsuni! That game was utter crap and so not worth full price. Why did you recommend it?" It could also be that I was in work mode where I do a whole lot of CYA when writing... I don't really know why I said that. Wait, why am I here? OH LOOK BUNDT CAKE!
I loved the game and the cuteness of it. Nintendo could have just made it as a GB retro game and called it good, but they made it look cute by redoing the graphics and music. I loved it so much that I bought the CDs to listen to the music and the original GB music.
The initial concept they were playing around with for BotW involved Link wearing jeans and riding a motorcycle in a modern setting, and I extremely want that game. We got the motorcycle, but not the rest of it.
The initial concept they were playing around with for BotW involved Link wearing jeans and riding a motorcycle in a modern setting, and I extremely want that game. We got the motorcycle, but not the rest of it.
Okay, so something's been bugging me and I have to ask. People who complain about the weapon durability system in BotW have mentioned, repeatedly, that it "disincentivizes" you from attacking enemies.
In what previous Zelda games has there been an incentive to attack enemies when you could otherwise avoid them? Okay, they drop Rupees or Bombs or Arrows, but... you can get those more easily in other ways, and attacking monsters takes time and risks you taking damage. I can't count "the door is locked, and the only way to open is to kill these moblins" as an incentive. I know for a fact that when I replay Ocarina of Time I will take pains to avoid fighting the Stalchildren in Hyrule Field at night, or the peahats, and half the tektites.
The only case of actively "incentivizing" monster killing that jumps to mind is the kinstone mechanic from Minish Cap, since you needed a few randomly-generated kinstones for optional trades and enemies were the most reliable source of those. Maybe some of the enemies in Wind Waker? You can get those necklaces and Chu Jelly with the Grapple Hook IIRC, so I'd put that around the same as stunning a BotW monster to steal its weapon and run. If anything, BotW has the most incentive to kill monsters, because most of them have weapons, some of which may be better than the ones you have. Even if they don't, they all drop crafting materials that you need to upgrade your armor. Those materials often sell for good money too, which you need a lot of in this game.
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
Okay, so something's been bugging me and I have to ask. People who complain about the weapon durability system in BotW have mentioned, repeatedly, that it "disincentivizes" you from attacking enemies.
In what previous Zelda games has there been an incentive to attack enemies when you could otherwise avoid them? Okay, they drop Rupees or Bombs or Arrows, but... you can get those more easily in other ways, and attacking monsters takes time and risks you taking damage. I can't count "the door is locked, and the only way to open is to kill these moblins" as an incentive. I know for a fact that when I replay Ocarina of Time I will take pains to avoid fighting the Stalchildren in Hyrule Field at night, or the peahats, and half the tektites.
The only case of actively "incentivizing" monster killing that jumps to mind is the kinstone mechanic from Minish Cap, since you needed a few randomly-generated kinstones for optional trades and enemies were the most reliable source of those. Maybe some of the enemies in Wind Waker? You can get those necklaces and Chu Jelly with the Grapple Hook IIRC, so I'd put that around the same as stunning a BotW monster to steal its weapon and run. If anything, BotW has the most incentive to kill monsters, because most of them have weapons, some of which may be better than the ones you have. Even if they don't, they all drop crafting materials that you need to upgrade your armor. Those materials often sell for good money too, which you need a lot of in this game.
Part of what encouraged me to fight monsters in previous games were the tools I knew I always had with me to fight them more optimally after I'd gotten them. Things like the Boomerang or or Fire Rod or even the Invisibility Cloak gave more power, power that can't be lost once it's gained. The disincentive to fight enemies is that you lose and rarely gain back as good as you gave until a hefty way through the game. That ice rod can't be counted on, that sword or shield or boomerang or bow can't be counted on, so there's less reason to engage because it's not a more sure thing.
The surety of older games in the rise in your power level, and the way it created easier encounters was, at least for me, the point. And in BotW, the issue is that you run through either 4-5 trash weapons or 1 good weapon half the time to get . . . 4-5 trash weapons. And if you're clearing out a camp, some arrows, rupees, or some crafting or food item that is easier gotten elsewhere. There's nothing that you need to get, no reason to actually go after all those dangerous landmarks, no reward that isn't going to evaporate.
There's no permanent thing to get other than the heart pieces and stamina upgrade and the armor, and take it from me you can get those while actively avoiding as many fights as possible.
Hell, you don't even dare use the special items from each realm because they're a pain in the ass to remake, and they're not specifically any better than what else you can find, so why use Boulder Breaker or the Lightscale Trident at all?
The durability issue is one of impermanence, and for one such as me it means that if I hold something as precious, I don't want to use it. I just flat won't use it. And the game didn't break me of that, it wasn't going to; instead it just made me resent the combat, instead of enjoying it as I commonly do in other LoZ games.
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Getting good weapons isn't remotely hard when you know where to look. Even pretty early on a Hinox is easy to take down and gives you some good weapons and Lynels give you absolutely great weapons when you reach a point where you can confront them. You quickly learn that there are spots that just have absurd gear out there in the world and when there is a Blood Moon everything not in a chest refreshes. The Blood Moon is the thing that makes this game work as well as it does and its brilliant in its design (not to mention it gives you a "do over" on being able to get certain Korok seeds, should you mess up).
There are plenty of areas where resources of all sorts are in abundance and if you have a picture of something you can use the Shieka Sensor+ to find more of what you want. Yes its different from traditional Zeldas but it all works amazingly in a game where the environment itself can be harsh and its meant to be a struggle to gain the upper hand. Then you reach a point where you're using Savage Lynel Crushers to break ore because fuck it, I have several, they are really durable, and I know where I can get more within moments. And when you get the Master Sword, and should you power it up, you basically don't have to touch your other weapons for the majority of your playtime.
Personally I like that the runes and everything else about Breath of the Wild keeps you experimenting and doing things in new ways. I would have been fine with Zelda staying as stagnant as its been for awhile because I love Zelda games, but I also hate that my familiarity makes it so I just know "oh yeah, I'll use the hookshot here when I get it, that is activated by an arrow when I get the bow, that requires iron boots, gotta light those torches, etc." As soon as I started playing this it felt right. This was without a doubt the kind of shake up Zelda needed and it continually blew away my expectations the more I engaged with the world, the new abilities, and the various ways you can tackle most puzzles and encounters.
Something really tough but is holding a weapon and shield you want? Playing Master Mode got me in a new mindset there too. I can be a real motherfucker and freeze that enemy with the Blizzard Rod, push them into water, and they drown and the weapon and shield combo is simply floating on the surface above where they died or I just fish them out with Magnesis. Or maybe that isn't an option but its raining and I have some shock arrows or a Thunder Rod. Just shock whoever you want and take their shit and run. You can get one over on enemies in so many different ways that getting what you want becomes just a matter of knowing where it is and striking in whatever way yields the best results with minimal cost (or none), if that is how you want to approach things.
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
I never held the rods, they constantly broke really fast, and they took up an actual useful weapon's slot. I never thought of beating most monsters in novel fashion (I mean, if there was an explosive barrel, sure), and tried more often than not to just sneak attack enemies so I wouldn't get killed or waste weapons. Same with lightning element. I noticed fire burned, but honestly, I even found most not-one handed swords or weapons to be overly clunky and leave me open to attack constantly. And I avoided the Lynels until the very, very end of the game because the one time I tried one out early on, it hit me once and killed me instantly with like, 7ish hearts?
I guess this felt more like a survival game/Dark Souls approach to Zelda games that honestly I'm just not interested in Zelda being. I actually much prefer the "use Hookshot here, bow here, light torches, iron boots" mental checklist. And maybe it's because honestly I'm not interested in being "inventive" with the system, but I can't remember using the runes for a single useful battle thing, either. Again, maybe I just came at it wrong, I suppose, but I was always waiting to hit that point where I could just fight, and that only happened 100ish hours into the game, when everything was almost over. I finally had weapons so durable that I could go multiple fights with the same weapon, and gather enough of the same weapon that I was basically just able to fight with my chosen weapon, but I had to fight the game's system to fight in a way that felt right to me.
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Plus the other great thing Breath of the Wild does is it brings back that satisfying level of difficulty that was sorely missing from the series. You don't have the tools you're use to and you will have to scavage and fight for your survival early on. The usual endgame power level is absolutely felt when an enemy that used to one shot you no longer can because you have gear that brought your defense waaay up and you have a ton more health, and you in turn can decimate it with the higher tier of weapons you have.
Or you used an ancient arrow and told that enemy to fuck right off and got instant revenge for whatever it did to the weaker version of you. Its not the absurd power level of something like Ocarina of Time where you become a God of sorts as its more grounded, but its absolutely there in a major way considering the gear and abilities you are capable of possessing.
Maybe my situation is unique, but I never got a chance to put in enough play hours to make hinox or lynel fights simple or easy enough to bother with. I fought hinox only when I had to, and avoided lynels completely. I never learned where the good weapons were, because I was always moving on to another location and main quest. I never had the resources to fully upgrade any armor. I never really got to the point where I felt invulnerable or powerful, and maybe that was a good thing for the intensity of going into the castle and facing off against Ganon.
So to me, weapons weren't easy to get or replace good ones. Most of my fighting was against bokoblins at the start, lizalfos wherever they were common, and those really annoying shiga clan warriors that teleported in constantly. So weapons from chests were the best I ever got, and I learned the hard way that champion weapons were nearly impossible to replace if you didn't randomly find the weapon that gets upgraded to them.
I don't think I really cared too much about the durability, because I did have a lot of good weapons by the end, but I did find the lack of one handed weapons annoying multiple times through the game as they were my preferred choice so they were often broken, leaving me with 2h and throwing weapons.
Being able to repair weapons, or making the champion weapons permanent or at least similar to the master sword, would have improved my experience. I also would have liked if the master sword had upgraded once the beasts were done. I think that would have been a good moment to make that a quest to return it to the knighting ceremony location or something, not the trials. It would have felt like I personally had a bit more progression and improvement besides just enough hearts and meals to tank any enemy.
I would argue Breath of the wild does more to encourage seeking out fights than almost anything else in the series. Most of the time in OOT or ALTTP your either killing enemies because it's tied to unlocking progress, or it was less trouble to kill then ignore.
In BOTW raiding a camp nets you weapons, food craft goods etc. Sure there are scenarios where it's not worth it. But that's not a bad thing, it just means you need to be aware what is worth your time and effort.
And maybe it's because honestly I'm not interested in being "inventive" with the system, but I can't remember using the runes for a single useful battle thing, either.
I think one of my favourite things to do in the game was to stasis any bokoblin that was riding a horse and watch it's horse keep riding on without it.
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KalnaurI See Rain . . .Centralia, WARegistered Userregular
edited May 2020
See, I never considered anything like that, and honestly I don't know that I'm accurate enough to even aim and get that hit in. Most of the stasis focused shrines really tested my patience because of some needing accuracy that I didn't feel like I had with stasis.
Like, I figured out plenty of ways to use the runes with the terrain, to open things or solve puzzles, but I didn't think of most of the powers as battle powers, bombs weren't that great for fighting, and every time I tried to hit anyone with a metal crate, they'd see it and dodge so I just stopped trying. I wasn't really considering anything that wasn't classic Zelda gameplay, because that's what I wanted and what worked, and yes, that's my issue, but I'm not sure what else I should have been thinking about or expecting?
To be fair, I suppose, I'm also not one looking to do wacky trick shots or special things in, like, any other open world game. Example, there is apparently a trick in Skyrim that lets you steal anyone's stuff; I'd never consider it in a million years to try something as off-the-wall as putting a bucket over someone's head. I'd be trying to find a chameleon spell or some other in-system game rule to exploit that would let me do what I wanted instead.
Which, maybe, that's something they need to consider, that not everyone is maybe as creative as they wanted folks to be, and signpost that kind of thing more.
Sidenote, what I think I missed most was the Twilight Princess-style boss fights that are cinematically intense, and focused on the proper use of a specific tool. Like, I think that's honestly my favorite part of the series is getting to a boss at the end of a dungeon and using the item of the dungeon against them. It's like . . . using the right combo of world visiting in Mega Man, and you feel awesome even if you've followed that trail a hundred times. Like, there was fighting Armoghoma with the statues with the control wand in TP, or Volvagia whack-a-mole with the hammer in OoC, Or chopping off the tentacles of Kalle Demos in WW. And while the world's sub bosses all had fun exploitative weaknesses, that was only if you had or needed to use the weakness against them. It wasn't like it was "last test: how do you use this thing?". It really felt like I only sort of got that in the DLC versions of the memory bosses, and in that case it felt very poorly telegraphed as to what they wanted me to do.
Edit: I also note that my list of favorites mainly is dominated at the top by games with more bosses and dungeons. With BotW and MM only having around 5 bosses/dungeon areas, that makes sense as to why they're near the bottom, and something like LTTP with 12 discrete dungeon areas is more my speed.
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And maybe it's because honestly I'm not interested in being "inventive" with the system, but I can't remember using the runes for a single useful battle thing, either.
I don't doubt what you're saying here, but I also find it a little surprising. Certain runes did have strict moments of utility and were otherwise going to be useless to you (like Aquaman fighting anywhere not aquatic), but two runes in particular were always combat ready and all four initial runes had combat applications.
How I used runes in combat spoiled below
Remote Bombs (default and +) - This ones more obvious, but I used bombs to kill weaker enemies (especially ocktoroks: leave a square bomb where you know one is hiding, run away, and detonate when it popped up [or throw a bomb at it and instantly detonate it if it was in the water) or scatter groups of moblins all the time. Also to launch them into a body of water or off a cliff. Even bulkier enemies like Moblins would lose their balance when struck with a Remote Bomb+ when sheilding and could get a bit airborn when not. I would throw bombs into the enterances of skull caves just to inflict cheap easy damage from time to time and of course lined them up with explosive barrels if I could do so safely.
Stasis+ - Default Stasis is virtually useless in combat but Stasis+ can freeze enemies in place for a short time when used in combat. It was enough time to line up a headshot on any enemy or not have a guardian fuck you up because by the time it unfroze its tracking on you would now be off. Or you could close the distance between you and an enemy and wail on it and send it flying. Or you could wail away on a boulder or explosive barrel and send it flying at unsuspecting enemies.
Magnesis - Getting more limited but wherever there were metal containers or spheres you had something you could suspend over an enemy and drop on it or manuveur into an enemy and deal damage or knock it off a platform. You could kill enemies with just Magnesis if used just right assuming it dealt enough damage or sent them falling to their doom (and if nothing else, it was a fun way to toy with them from afar).
Cryonis - The most limited but it has a couple combat uses when applicable. One is blocking. If you don't want to use an arrow to kill an ocktorok in the water you could set a pillar of ice just before it and render its attacks useless. Or if you were fighting on standing water you could block the shots of guardians or enemies with bows by creating a pillar in front of yourself. In the fight with Devine Beast Ruta you could create pillars of ice on the water immediately before you to block the various ice projectiles if you wanted to conserve arrows. This was also useful in the second form of that Devine Beasts boss fight.
The other is creating a platform to leap off of and shoot your bow. I had an aha! moment when fighting the harder version of the boss fight aboard the Devine Beast Ruta (from the DLC). The boss was fucking me up and I failed it on my first attempt because I misused the limited resources this challenge allowed you. So on my second attempt I started using Cryonis to block the ice projectiles, but more importanty, to give myself platforms to attack from. I'd create a pillar, quicly climb up and jump off, then use slow mo in mid air and shoot as many arrows as I could at that fucker. Since then I've used the same tactic when fighting lizaflos and even guardians when I've been able to.
I guess this felt more like a survival game/Dark Souls approach to Zelda games that honestly I'm just not interested in Zelda being.
That is absoluetly fair but I think when people make that comparison to this being like a spiritual successor to the first Zelda its not only because of BotWs open ended nature and being so exploration focused, but also because the game can humble you with a single encounter that you were woefully unprepared for. The moment that a Talos killed me in one hit before I got off the starting plateau in BotW gave me that same feeling of walking into a dungeon in the first Zelda and getting quickly overwhelmed and brutalized by wizrobes. Both represented obstacles that, while annoying for a hot second, made me more eager to play and figure out how to overcome those encounters. So really, you could argue that BotW is more old school The Legend of Zelda hard than Dark Souls hard (or that Dark Souls itself took its own inspiration in part from people on that team that played The Legend of Zelda).
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For example I thought it worked brilliantly for the map design, but I wasn’t a fan of the broken piano pieces, though I understand they’re supposed to be full of gaps, to link the audio with the broken world.
Anyway how about them two nerds?
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Game of the year if the next Zelda has some actual interactions between the pair.
I was constantly looking for destinations of where to get things or give the gameplay a point, which is my thing more or less. It doesn't mean I didn't like the environments, or think they were beautiful, but after about 60ish hours I was done with the random exploration and wanted to get somewhere, and that made the space in between here and there an obstruction, not a bonus. In most Zelda games before this, even if there was an open space, and even if it was large, the amount of time to get from here to there is much shorter, and I actually liked that feeling that Hyrule is a much smaller space, with more densely packed things. That plus most enemies in BotW not giving anything, and instead taking something, along with almost all of the treasure chests giving only a temporary item (not ignoring that older games commonly gave consumables or rupees) made the destinations seem less interesting because a fight was always a net loss unless on the off chance you might get a better weapon in exchange for a single clearly inferior one. Like, sure, you might get a few weapons from a group of enemies, but at a certain point, they were, lets be honest, trash. And if you couldn't use a shield, the usefulness was cut at least in half (at least for me). So trying to effectively fight became a matter of throwing away almost anything that wasn't one-handed. That meant the destinations I started the game seeking out I was actively avoiding to keep weapons I actually wanted in exchange for not getting pointless treasure, which isn't how I prefer to play LoZ games.
My other issue, almost certainly, is what other open world games provide. In terms of city-based games like Saint's Row or even the Assassin's Creed games (up to at least Syndicate), there's always a group of enemies or people or treasures or whatever to make the entire world feel very active. Even the wilderness of ACIII or the seas of Black Flag/Rogue were populated by ships and fights that gave useful resources, and were fun to engage in. In Oblivion/Skyrim/Fallout 3 or 4, the world is vast but there's always a monster or a treasure or an area or something just over the next rise, and a compass constantly leading you to another thing to do, and a bunch of ingredients to harvest between here and there. I remember the actual dead spaces in those games far less because of the frequency between things to find. The environments are fantastic, beautiful, and incidental to my experience.
All of which is a lot of words to say that it's very, very subjective.
Good luck, we're all counting on you.
I completely understand the reason you didn't like BotW and it makes sense to me. Somewhat like how I look at some games that are sandbox and go, "eh nope, not for me". I'm glad that there are games that do fit everybody's happy spots and since you said you never played the portable Zelda games and you liked the older Zelda games, you might want to try out Link's Awakening. It was my first Zelda game that I played (and beat) by myself.
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Yes, this. I find it horribly annoying (especially when you find a shrine with a puzzle to get to it or a bunch of enemies).
I'm considering that one on the Switch. I played (in order of playing them): Link to the Past, The Legend of Zelda, Zelda II, Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, Wind Waker, Twilight Princess, A Link Between Worlds (the only portable game I've played), and Breath of the Wild.
In order of best to worst, I'd list them as: Link to the Past, Twilight Princess, Ocarina of Time, Wind Waker, A Link Between Worlds, Breath of the Wild, Majora's Mask.
I do feel like it's important to note that even as much as I complain about BotW, I don't spend 120 hours in a game that doesn't have some measure of enjoyment for me. It's just nowhere near the top of my Zelda game list, or even my top games of all time list.
Forgot just how cool and chaotic that last bit in the Sword Trials was
I'd say wait for it to go on sale for around $40 or at least $50 if you are buying it to play it since it is a smaller game.
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Why does Zelda have steel-toed boots? Does she work in a warehouse? :P
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I agree with the thrust of this (though my Zelda ordering would be different). BotW wasn't my GotY that year, Horizon: Zero Dawn was. Doesn't mean I didn't love and cherish BoTW, but I am clearly not on the same wave length as people who espouse ideas like BotW being better than Link to the Past (which, to clearly state my bias, is one of only a handful of games who's position in my head canon Game Hall of Fame I consider to be unassailable).
I think I said this at the time but BotW is a good start, but I hope the sequel greatly fleshes out the game. Keep the amazing exploration, the mysterious sub-narritives, the beautiful world, etc...but flesh that scaffolding out with more Zelda.
Is there . . . another reason to buy a game other than to play it?
Not for the flavour, that's for sure.
PSN / Xbox / NNID: Fodder185
Yeah, if i had the spare space and my joycons were working properly, i'd reinstall BoTW just so i could tool around on the Master Cycle for fun. It's still a great feeling game for sheer joy of exploration.
I adore the image of Zelda just rider-kicking derbris away.
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Collectors exist, I guess.
Or giving it as a gift maybe? Is that a thing people still do?
TBF I own a copy of Twilight Princess for Wii U that has never been opened because I wanted the Wolf Link amiibo...
You know how when you write something (or think something) it makes perfect sense at the time? You don't? Oh well... I do this regularly and this is one of those times.
I meant to say that I don't want you buying it then coming back and saying, "Betsuni! That game was utter crap and so not worth full price. Why did you recommend it?" It could also be that I was in work mode where I do a whole lot of CYA when writing... I don't really know why I said that. Wait, why am I here? OH LOOK BUNDT CAKE!
I loved the game and the cuteness of it. Nintendo could have just made it as a GB retro game and called it good, but they made it look cute by redoing the graphics and music. I loved it so much that I bought the CDs to listen to the music and the original GB music.
Steam: betsuni7
I've had over 20 years of practice...
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You can fix the jeans part at Kochi Dye Shop.
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KLANG KLANG KLANG
As far as Zelda music from a Youtuber goes, I really like this guys stuff
In what previous Zelda games has there been an incentive to attack enemies when you could otherwise avoid them? Okay, they drop Rupees or Bombs or Arrows, but... you can get those more easily in other ways, and attacking monsters takes time and risks you taking damage. I can't count "the door is locked, and the only way to open is to kill these moblins" as an incentive. I know for a fact that when I replay Ocarina of Time I will take pains to avoid fighting the Stalchildren in Hyrule Field at night, or the peahats, and half the tektites.
The only case of actively "incentivizing" monster killing that jumps to mind is the kinstone mechanic from Minish Cap, since you needed a few randomly-generated kinstones for optional trades and enemies were the most reliable source of those. Maybe some of the enemies in Wind Waker? You can get those necklaces and Chu Jelly with the Grapple Hook IIRC, so I'd put that around the same as stunning a BotW monster to steal its weapon and run. If anything, BotW has the most incentive to kill monsters, because most of them have weapons, some of which may be better than the ones you have. Even if they don't, they all drop crafting materials that you need to upgrade your armor. Those materials often sell for good money too, which you need a lot of in this game.
Part of what encouraged me to fight monsters in previous games were the tools I knew I always had with me to fight them more optimally after I'd gotten them. Things like the Boomerang or or Fire Rod or even the Invisibility Cloak gave more power, power that can't be lost once it's gained. The disincentive to fight enemies is that you lose and rarely gain back as good as you gave until a hefty way through the game. That ice rod can't be counted on, that sword or shield or boomerang or bow can't be counted on, so there's less reason to engage because it's not a more sure thing.
The surety of older games in the rise in your power level, and the way it created easier encounters was, at least for me, the point. And in BotW, the issue is that you run through either 4-5 trash weapons or 1 good weapon half the time to get . . . 4-5 trash weapons. And if you're clearing out a camp, some arrows, rupees, or some crafting or food item that is easier gotten elsewhere. There's nothing that you need to get, no reason to actually go after all those dangerous landmarks, no reward that isn't going to evaporate.
There's no permanent thing to get other than the heart pieces and stamina upgrade and the armor, and take it from me you can get those while actively avoiding as many fights as possible.
Hell, you don't even dare use the special items from each realm because they're a pain in the ass to remake, and they're not specifically any better than what else you can find, so why use Boulder Breaker or the Lightscale Trident at all?
The durability issue is one of impermanence, and for one such as me it means that if I hold something as precious, I don't want to use it. I just flat won't use it. And the game didn't break me of that, it wasn't going to; instead it just made me resent the combat, instead of enjoying it as I commonly do in other LoZ games.
There are plenty of areas where resources of all sorts are in abundance and if you have a picture of something you can use the Shieka Sensor+ to find more of what you want. Yes its different from traditional Zeldas but it all works amazingly in a game where the environment itself can be harsh and its meant to be a struggle to gain the upper hand. Then you reach a point where you're using Savage Lynel Crushers to break ore because fuck it, I have several, they are really durable, and I know where I can get more within moments. And when you get the Master Sword, and should you power it up, you basically don't have to touch your other weapons for the majority of your playtime.
Personally I like that the runes and everything else about Breath of the Wild keeps you experimenting and doing things in new ways. I would have been fine with Zelda staying as stagnant as its been for awhile because I love Zelda games, but I also hate that my familiarity makes it so I just know "oh yeah, I'll use the hookshot here when I get it, that is activated by an arrow when I get the bow, that requires iron boots, gotta light those torches, etc." As soon as I started playing this it felt right. This was without a doubt the kind of shake up Zelda needed and it continually blew away my expectations the more I engaged with the world, the new abilities, and the various ways you can tackle most puzzles and encounters.
I guess this felt more like a survival game/Dark Souls approach to Zelda games that honestly I'm just not interested in Zelda being. I actually much prefer the "use Hookshot here, bow here, light torches, iron boots" mental checklist. And maybe it's because honestly I'm not interested in being "inventive" with the system, but I can't remember using the runes for a single useful battle thing, either. Again, maybe I just came at it wrong, I suppose, but I was always waiting to hit that point where I could just fight, and that only happened 100ish hours into the game, when everything was almost over. I finally had weapons so durable that I could go multiple fights with the same weapon, and gather enough of the same weapon that I was basically just able to fight with my chosen weapon, but I had to fight the game's system to fight in a way that felt right to me.
Or you used an ancient arrow and told that enemy to fuck right off and got instant revenge for whatever it did to the weaker version of you. Its not the absurd power level of something like Ocarina of Time where you become a God of sorts as its more grounded, but its absolutely there in a major way considering the gear and abilities you are capable of possessing.
So to me, weapons weren't easy to get or replace good ones. Most of my fighting was against bokoblins at the start, lizalfos wherever they were common, and those really annoying shiga clan warriors that teleported in constantly. So weapons from chests were the best I ever got, and I learned the hard way that champion weapons were nearly impossible to replace if you didn't randomly find the weapon that gets upgraded to them.
I don't think I really cared too much about the durability, because I did have a lot of good weapons by the end, but I did find the lack of one handed weapons annoying multiple times through the game as they were my preferred choice so they were often broken, leaving me with 2h and throwing weapons.
Being able to repair weapons, or making the champion weapons permanent or at least similar to the master sword, would have improved my experience. I also would have liked if the master sword had upgraded once the beasts were done. I think that would have been a good moment to make that a quest to return it to the knighting ceremony location or something, not the trials. It would have felt like I personally had a bit more progression and improvement besides just enough hearts and meals to tank any enemy.
In BOTW raiding a camp nets you weapons, food craft goods etc. Sure there are scenarios where it's not worth it. But that's not a bad thing, it just means you need to be aware what is worth your time and effort.
I think one of my favourite things to do in the game was to stasis any bokoblin that was riding a horse and watch it's horse keep riding on without it.
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Like, I figured out plenty of ways to use the runes with the terrain, to open things or solve puzzles, but I didn't think of most of the powers as battle powers, bombs weren't that great for fighting, and every time I tried to hit anyone with a metal crate, they'd see it and dodge so I just stopped trying. I wasn't really considering anything that wasn't classic Zelda gameplay, because that's what I wanted and what worked, and yes, that's my issue, but I'm not sure what else I should have been thinking about or expecting?
To be fair, I suppose, I'm also not one looking to do wacky trick shots or special things in, like, any other open world game. Example, there is apparently a trick in Skyrim that lets you steal anyone's stuff; I'd never consider it in a million years to try something as off-the-wall as putting a bucket over someone's head. I'd be trying to find a chameleon spell or some other in-system game rule to exploit that would let me do what I wanted instead.
Which, maybe, that's something they need to consider, that not everyone is maybe as creative as they wanted folks to be, and signpost that kind of thing more.
Sidenote, what I think I missed most was the Twilight Princess-style boss fights that are cinematically intense, and focused on the proper use of a specific tool. Like, I think that's honestly my favorite part of the series is getting to a boss at the end of a dungeon and using the item of the dungeon against them. It's like . . . using the right combo of world visiting in Mega Man, and you feel awesome even if you've followed that trail a hundred times. Like, there was fighting Armoghoma with the statues with the control wand in TP, or Volvagia whack-a-mole with the hammer in OoC, Or chopping off the tentacles of Kalle Demos in WW. And while the world's sub bosses all had fun exploitative weaknesses, that was only if you had or needed to use the weakness against them. It wasn't like it was "last test: how do you use this thing?". It really felt like I only sort of got that in the DLC versions of the memory bosses, and in that case it felt very poorly telegraphed as to what they wanted me to do.
Edit: I also note that my list of favorites mainly is dominated at the top by games with more bosses and dungeons. With BotW and MM only having around 5 bosses/dungeon areas, that makes sense as to why they're near the bottom, and something like LTTP with 12 discrete dungeon areas is more my speed.
I don't doubt what you're saying here, but I also find it a little surprising. Certain runes did have strict moments of utility and were otherwise going to be useless to you (like Aquaman fighting anywhere not aquatic), but two runes in particular were always combat ready and all four initial runes had combat applications.
How I used runes in combat spoiled below
Stasis+ - Default Stasis is virtually useless in combat but Stasis+ can freeze enemies in place for a short time when used in combat. It was enough time to line up a headshot on any enemy or not have a guardian fuck you up because by the time it unfroze its tracking on you would now be off. Or you could close the distance between you and an enemy and wail on it and send it flying. Or you could wail away on a boulder or explosive barrel and send it flying at unsuspecting enemies.
Magnesis - Getting more limited but wherever there were metal containers or spheres you had something you could suspend over an enemy and drop on it or manuveur into an enemy and deal damage or knock it off a platform. You could kill enemies with just Magnesis if used just right assuming it dealt enough damage or sent them falling to their doom (and if nothing else, it was a fun way to toy with them from afar).
Cryonis - The most limited but it has a couple combat uses when applicable. One is blocking. If you don't want to use an arrow to kill an ocktorok in the water you could set a pillar of ice just before it and render its attacks useless. Or if you were fighting on standing water you could block the shots of guardians or enemies with bows by creating a pillar in front of yourself. In the fight with Devine Beast Ruta you could create pillars of ice on the water immediately before you to block the various ice projectiles if you wanted to conserve arrows. This was also useful in the second form of that Devine Beasts boss fight.
The other is creating a platform to leap off of and shoot your bow. I had an aha! moment when fighting the harder version of the boss fight aboard the Devine Beast Ruta (from the DLC). The boss was fucking me up and I failed it on my first attempt because I misused the limited resources this challenge allowed you. So on my second attempt I started using Cryonis to block the ice projectiles, but more importanty, to give myself platforms to attack from. I'd create a pillar, quicly climb up and jump off, then use slow mo in mid air and shoot as many arrows as I could at that fucker. Since then I've used the same tactic when fighting lizaflos and even guardians when I've been able to.
That is absoluetly fair but I think when people make that comparison to this being like a spiritual successor to the first Zelda its not only because of BotWs open ended nature and being so exploration focused, but also because the game can humble you with a single encounter that you were woefully unprepared for. The moment that a Talos killed me in one hit before I got off the starting plateau in BotW gave me that same feeling of walking into a dungeon in the first Zelda and getting quickly overwhelmed and brutalized by wizrobes. Both represented obstacles that, while annoying for a hot second, made me more eager to play and figure out how to overcome those encounters. So really, you could argue that BotW is more old school The Legend of Zelda hard than Dark Souls hard (or that Dark Souls itself took its own inspiration in part from people on that team that played The Legend of Zelda).