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[Star Wars Thread] Solid... I’m going to say analysis?

italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
edited May 24 in Debate and/or Discourse
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Bogart wrote:
Anyway, the Star Wars thread [has been], on a regular basis, absolutely awful. I mean just downright terrible. Bad-tempered, endlessly rehashing old and tedious arguments, constantly taking what is a fun franchise about space wizards more seriously than, say, anything else. It was awful both to read and to be a part of. This thread may well go the same way, in which case it'll probably go on a break, just like Ross and Rachel, if you catch my hepcat cultural references. But I would urge you to not be a part of that decline into spittle-flecked yelling. If you catch yourself writing with a frown on your face, take a moment to ask yourself if, in fact, you wouldn't be better off not posting the long, detailed and enraged screed about why someone is wrong, and instead shrug and say oh well it doesn't really matter anyway.

It would be foolish to say that The Last Jedi Debate has ended, but I think we’ve reached a general armistice agreement with all the peace and fragility of the Korean Peninsula. Please don’t try to decide which side of the line the two arguments fall on. Regardless if you want to talk about The Last Jedi in this thread it’s your prerogative, but don’t be surprised at either the lack or surprising fervor of participants. Last Jedi Analysis videos:
Movies With Mickey: How we view Star Wars:


Just Write's Why We Can't Agree About The Last Jedi & Character Arcs


Lessons From The Screenplay:

Wisecrack's What Went Wrong, and other videos critical of the movie:



More people have seen Solo: A Star Wars Disaster, and enthusiasm for discussing it reflects its box office performance. I mean, I still think it’s good. Maybe one of the best worst Star Wars movies ever. Easily in my top 5. Here are some cool YouTubes to watch about it:


Hey, do you wanna talk about how awesome KOTOR was? My favorite part was seeing the d20 rolls and the automatic calculation of your Ability & Proficiency modifiers compared to the enemy’s Armor Class. I can’t wait to see this visceral combat brought to the big screen.



Ok, ok. I know why you’re really here; it’s to hype on Kylo’s (that’s not “Kyle’s” autocorrect!) new helmet and other Rise of Skywalker speculation.
Trailer!
Kylo Ren reacts!
Tweets!

飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
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Posts

  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”

    Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”

    Star Wars fans: “Yay!”

    ...

    Am I missing something?

    jungleroomxAtlas in ChainskimeNightslyr
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”

    Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”

    Star Wars fans: “Yay!”

    ...

    Am I missing something?

    Well, I think your entire premise, that Star Wars fans want something that is new and isn't a rehash of what came before, is faulty.

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  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular
    New thread, new list. In order of my personal preference of watching if given a choice, feature films only:

    Empire Strikes Back
    Star Wars
    The Last Jedi
    Rogue One
    The Force Awakens
    Return of the Jedi
    Solo
    Revenge of the Sith
    Attack of the Clones
    The Phantom Menace

    The top of the list is the most difficult for me. 2-5 could swap around on a daily basis depending on my mood. But I think this is the most stable configuration currently.

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    Elvenshae
  • SyphonBlueSyphonBlue Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”

    Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”

    Star Wars fans: “Yay!”

    ...

    Am I missing something?

    Well, I think your entire premise, that Star Wars fans want something that is new and isn't a rehash of what came before, is faulty.

    Also, Star Wars fans are not one hive mind.

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  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”

    Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”

    Star Wars fans: “Yay!”

    ...

    Am I missing something?

    Well, I think your entire premise, that Star Wars fans want something that is new and isn't a rehash of what came before, is faulty.

    Also, Star Wars fans are not one hive mind.

    Yes, I think we can all agree with that.

    CaedwyrSiliconStewShadowenjdarksunDarkPrimusDoctor DetroitchromdomElvenshaejungleroomxWhittledownRhesus PositiveBobblepablo_pricekimeFencingsaxNightslyroverride367Moridin889userJoolanderLocal H JayFoolOnTheHillMarekshoeboxjeddyEncKanaForarJebus314
  • davidsdurionsdavidsdurions Your Trusty Meatshield Panhandle NebraskaRegistered User regular

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  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    reVerse wrote: »
    SyphonBlue wrote: »
    reVerse wrote: »
    Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”

    Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”

    Star Wars fans: “Yay!”

    ...

    Am I missing something?

    Well, I think your entire premise, that Star Wars fans want something that is new and isn't a rehash of what came before, is faulty.

    Also, Star Wars fans are not one hive mind.

    Yes, I think we can all agree with that.

    Can we?

  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Movie Power Rankings:

    Top Tier:
    Empire Strikes Back
    Star Wars
    Return of the Jedi

    Mid Tier:
    The Force Awakens
    Rogue One
    The Last Jedi

    Bottom Tier:
    Solo
    Everything Else

    Rogue One has a singular advantage in that I don't really watch any of the trilogy movies unless I'm watching all of them.

    Also if Jedi had used Wookies that were run away slave labor (make the conflict that they just want to steal the rebel shuttle and go home, not fight) it'd maybe be my favorite of the trilogy. Such a great final chapter otherwise.

    Solo I like a little more then average but it is the biggest casualty to "The Star Wars formula" in existence.

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  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”

    Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”

    Star Wars fans: “Yay!”

    ...

    Am I missing something?

    For me personally I came too late to KOTOR to appreciate it. Besides the extremely dated graphics, I just wasn’t impressed by the gameplay. I’ve been playing and running D&D since 1996, and aside from the novelty of seeing it automated I was confused why anyone would base a game engine on it. Finally while I can appreciate the characters, nothing makes me roll my eyes harder than fan gushing over the concept of “grey Jedi.”

    That being said I did like SW:TOR, and the animated intros all seem sufficiently Star Wars, so I could be excited for that.

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  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    The story is really the shining part of the KotOR series.

    I’d argue the KOTOR stories are remembered more fondly because they were released between AOTC and ROTS.

    They’re good stories, but there’s a lot to sift through to get good a good movie.

  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    KotOR
    Amnesia
    is a silly plot device and
    Total Recall
    already exists, I don't need it in a Star Wars skin, again. Grey Jedi is a terrible concept because we've seen what happens when you play with the Dark Side and grey is the most boring color.

    I'm biased, though, because I run a Star Wars tabletop game and every. single. player. thinks their grey Jedi character is the most unique thing ever, but they are all just assholes that lift rocks and mind control anybody that puts up a hint of resistance.

    italianranmaDoctor DetroitObiFett
  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus premium Registered User regular
    KOTOR 2 did grey Jedi the best

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  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    KotOR
    Amnesia
    is a silly plot device and
    Total Recall
    already exists, I don't need it in a Star Wars skin, again. Grey Jedi is a terrible concept because we've seen what happens when you play with the Dark Side and grey is the most boring color.

    I'm biased, though, because I run a Star Wars tabletop game and every. single. player. thinks their grey Jedi character is the most unique thing ever, but they are all just assholes that lift rocks and mind control anybody that puts up a hint of resistance.

    Help! My eyes rolled back too far and now I’m blind.

    After I shut down the Grey Jedi circus my players came up with they showed up to our Edge of the Empire game with Futurama characters instead. I couldn’t stay mad at them... But only because I killed them all in the first space battle at the end of the session.

    飛べねぇ豚はただの豚だ。
    ElvenshaeFencingsaxHeffling
  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    jdarksun wrote: »
    The story is really the shining part of the KotOR series.
    I’d argue the KOTOR stories are remembered more fondly because they were released between AOTC and ROTS.

    They’re good stories, but there’s a lot to sift through to get good a good movie.
    HD KotOR with some tuned-up gameplay would be better received post TLJ than it was between AotC and RotS. Its story and themes are more relevant now than ever.

    I don't think video games translate to movies very well, and trying cram KotOR into 90-120min is going to fail. Revan's origin story in the comics is probably a better place to start, it's pretty straightforward and leaves more room for writers to write. If you're going to make a trilogy about Revan, maybe Fall / Revenge / Redemption.
    I'm biased, though, because I run a Star Wars tabletop game and every. single. player. thinks their grey Jedi character is the most unique thing ever, but they are all just assholes that lift rocks and mind control anybody that puts up a hint of resistance.
    You need better players, my dude.

    OrcaFencingsaxCommander ZoomA Dabble Of Thelonius
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Just give me the same general setting and the broad strokes

    jdarksun
  • reVersereVerse Registered User regular
    The only interesting thing about Revan was that you played as Revan. Outside of that, he's the most generic goober there's ever been in a star war story.

    OrcabrynhrtmnAistan
  • KingofMadCowsKingofMadCows Registered User regular
    KotoR 2 made Revan a much more interesting character than KotoR.

    ArteenEtiowsaMoridin889AlexandiermanwiththemachinegunKana
  • Doctor DetroitDoctor Detroit Registered User regular
    Breaking bad to defeat the enemies of the Republic? I guess that’s okay.

    But if they go with, “not really evil, just trying to toughen up the Republic” I’m out.

    If they go, “mind-whammied by a Sith Emperor” I’m really out.

    And I don’t think there’s a good way to do the twist. I mean, you either have the problem of doing it in order, which kills the twist or you have to go back and do a prequel to satisfy everyone who will want to see DR in action.


    Frankiedarling
  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    edited May 25
    Revan was a chump.

    A chump who got chumped out even by other chumps.

    Revan was such a chump he had to turn into two chumps just to fit all his chumpitude

    Shadowen on
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    Shadowen wrote: »
    Revan was a chump.

    A chump who got chumped out even by other chumps.

    Revan lived happily everafter with Carth, it is known. If this doesn’t become established cannon, the fanfic writers will riot.

  • RT800RT800 Registered User regular
    edited May 25
    Revan the character couldn't be that interesting since he was just a player surrogate for the whole game.

    But I think Revan's story is pretty interesting and cool.

    Up to KotOR2, anyway. Where Revan's story ends and they wrote no more about him ever.

    RT800 on
  • pablo_pricepablo_price Registered User regular
    edited May 26
    I finally watched that anh duel reimagined video.

    It was even dumber than I was imagining

    pablo_price on
    PreacherAbsoluteZeroFANTOMAS
  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”

    Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”

    Star Wars fans: “Yay!”

    ...

    Am I missing something?

    I absolutely think that the number of fans that sincerely want something fresh and new from Star Wars are in the minority, unfortunately.

    Nightslyr
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    edited May 26
    RT800 wrote: »
    Revan the character couldn't be that interesting since he was just a player surrogate for the whole game.

    But I think Revan's story is pretty interesting and cool.

    Up to KotOR2, anyway. Where Revan's story ends and they wrote no more about him ever.

    I mean you say that, but then there's everything in SWTOR up until Knights of the Eternal Throne

    edit: which is not to say that his story extension is good mind you

    Orca on
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  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    edited May 26
    Javen wrote: »
    Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”

    Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”

    Star Wars fans: “Yay!”

    ...

    Am I missing something?

    I absolutely think that the number of fans that sincerely want something fresh and new from Star Wars are in the minority, unfortunately.

    Trying to figure out something like this is just going to be hellish for the franchise. Do you mean long-time fans? Young new fans? Older new fans? Old old fans? And then there's further splitting things up between people who want stuff from the EU, people perfectly happy to see the EU gone, people who want SW that subverts expectations, people who want SW to match expectations (and that splits down into all sorts of things as well).

    To an extent, I can't even blame (all) the fans anymore because the SW franchise has been allowed to become so fractured and aimless that trying to pick anything to make is just a huge mess. Just in my own case, I was ambivalent about ditching the EU, annoyed as hell they kept the PT, and supremely disappointed that the ST setting is dominated by a considerably less-interesting and version of the Empire. So they ditched a bunch of goofy crap and a bunch of good stuff in order to keep a pile of definitely shitty material and then build on the originals with material every bit as schizophrenic as the EU anyway.

    At this point, the biggest "fresh and new" they could pull off would be to finally settle on some consistency and quality in the setting, instead of letting material bounce around and contradict or hamstring other material in dumb ways.

    Ninja Snarl P on
    Nightslyr
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    RT800 wrote: »
    Revan the character couldn't be that interesting since he was just a player surrogate for the whole game.

    But I think Revan's story is pretty interesting and cool.

    Up to KotOR2, anyway. Where Revan's story ends and they wrote no more about him ever.

    I mean you say that, but then there's everything in SWTOR up until Knights of the Eternal Throne

    edit: which is not to say that his story extension is good mind you

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  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    Buy it or not, this thread’s reading of TLJ is pretty amazing:

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  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Buy it or not, this thread’s reading of TLJ is pretty amazing:


    Its a good movie that has room for lots of stuff like this

    AstaerethShadowenAtomikaJazzdavidsdurionsNightslyrbrynhrtmnshoeboxjeddy
  • italianranmaitalianranma Registered User regular
    I finally watched that anh duel reimagined video.

    It was even dumber than I was imagining

    I liked it. It doesn’t quite fit with the aesthetic of the original, but as a stand-alone piece it’s exciting.

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    SteelhawkJazz
  • OrcaOrca Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    Buy it or not, this thread’s reading of TLJ is pretty amazing:


    I don't buy all of it, but it definitely holds for at least some of it, which is interesting. I hadn't considered that take.

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    Nightslyritalianranma
  • FrankiedarlingFrankiedarling Registered User regular
    Javen wrote: »
    Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”

    Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”

    Star Wars fans: “Yay!”

    ...

    Am I missing something?

    I absolutely think that the number of fans that sincerely want something fresh and new from Star Wars are in the minority, unfortunately.

    Star Wars has its own set of themes/feels/etc. Perhaps people don't want something new and different because those things are the reason they like Star Wars? We saw this with the whole "grey Jedi" thing. People who were attracted to the duality of Light/Dark were iffy on the whole shades of grey thing that was introduced. Not everything has to have gritty realism or modern morals or have multiple subversions of themes.

    Atlas in ChainsjdarksunNinja Snarl PelectricitylikesmeDoctor Detroititalianranma
  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    What are some good Star Wars side stories where the Sith run the galaxy? KOTOR had a whole planet of Sith ruins.

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    I don't think they every really have one of those, since "Sith run the galaxy" is basically a game-over scenario as everything ends up as a hellhole. The OT is probably as close as it gets, and even that is just a couple Sith running a big government, not a lot of Sith running things.

  • ShadowenShadowen Snores in the morning Registered User regular
    In TOR, you get to see what a Sith Empire would actually look like from the inside.

    And in the Star Wars Legacy comic, there's a more-or-less three way war between a resurgent Empire, the Galactic Alliance (which replaced the Republic), and the One Sith (so named because even though there's hundreds or thousands of them, they're supposedly united in cause).

  • jdarksunjdarksun Scion of Chaos Registered User regular
    The Legacy series of comics with Cade Skywalker is basically that. So is anything on the Sith side from SWTOR. Not really Sith, but similar idea - there are a handful of books during the Yuuzhan Vong run that go into what their governing is like.

  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    I don't think new factors into my dislike. I don't care for the way it's been distilled. We used to have massive dogfights, now we have Poe, who is the living avatar of dogfights. X-wing vs dreadnought isn't cool to me, it's way over the top. Everything feels pegged at 11, best pilot, biggest ships, most powerful force users, most bumbling henchmen, most destructive super weapon. It's like a full glass of Bacardi 151 straight, no ice.

    Finn is my favorite part of the ST. He's not "the most" in any area, he's just a good soldier. I like his dynamic with Rey. Splitting them up and sending Finn on a shaggy dog story was not ideal.

    FencingsaxMonwynNightslyritalianranma
  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    edited May 26
    There's one large scale space battle in the original trilogy

    Styrofoam Sammich on
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    I said dogfights. 2 in ANH, big battle to end RotJ. None of them read like the final Smith vs Neo fight to end the Matrix trilogy.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. 5386-8443-8937Registered User regular
    I dont know what you mean by "massive" then

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