Something something Death in Hogfather talking about needing the small lies to believe the big ones, to be human, to be the point where The Falling Angel meets the Rising Ape
Lining up hyperdrive missiles get shot by ties just as easily as lining up bombers. I dont understand why this is so necessary
You leave the hyperdrive missiles way out at the edge of the system, then transmit the targetting data to them. Then they jump and obliterate the target in a single strike with no opportunity for the enemy to counteract them, because FTL.
Honestly as amazing as the effect was in TLJ I really wish they hadn't done it, as it makes capital ship engagements utterly nonsensical.
Edit: "Hyperdrive missiles," here, is "asteroids we harvested from the Hoth system and strapped engines to."
You must be close enough to hit the target before you complete the jump to light speed.
This is a rule you just made up with no textual basis as far as I can tell
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Obviously the rules allowed for it, because I saw it happen
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
Lining up hyperdrive missiles get shot by ties just as easily as lining up bombers. I dont understand why this is so necessary
You leave the hyperdrive missiles way out at the edge of the system, then transmit the targetting data to them. Then they jump and obliterate the target in a single strike with no opportunity for the enemy to counteract them, because FTL.
Honestly as amazing as the effect was in TLJ I really wish they hadn't done it, as it makes capital ship engagements utterly nonsensical.
Edit: "Hyperdrive missiles," here, is "asteroids we harvested from the Hoth system and strapped engines to."
You must be close enough to hit the target before you complete the jump to light speed.
This is a rule you just made up with no textual basis as far as I can tell
That is a rule you just made up with no textual basis either...(well except there is textual basis for hyoerspace not interacting with normal space)
In rogue one Vaders ship enters combat through the trajectory of ships jumping to light speed. In Star Wars the millennium falcon flies through the debris of Alderaan and when it exits hyperspace its directly being impacted by said debris. Han even says they “exited into a debris field”. In Solo they go to light speed inside a rock nebula maelstrom. Now maybe they all just missed while they were in light speed.
Or maybe there is actually textual evidence right from the first film that ships dont collide with small objects when theyre in hyperspace.
The other answer is that its a reasonable conclusion to make from the text of the film. Because unsupported suppositions which do not contradict the continuity of the film are at least as valid as those which knock them down. There is no point in any other movie where any mass interaction happens within hyperspace. Saying they it can happen is just as unsupported.
Obviously the rules allowed for it, because I saw it happen
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
Dany was a character decision, not a "how the universe works" decision.
I mean, we can just sit here and say TLJ was bad and did a bad thing
On the other hand, there's a time-honored Star Wars fandom tradition of taking things that maybe don't make sense, like the Kessel Run parsec thing, and finding ways for them to make sense. Doesn't that seem like more fun?
Lining up hyperdrive missiles get shot by ties just as easily as lining up bombers. I dont understand why this is so necessary
You leave the hyperdrive missiles way out at the edge of the system, then transmit the targetting data to them. Then they jump and obliterate the target in a single strike with no opportunity for the enemy to counteract them, because FTL.
Honestly as amazing as the effect was in TLJ I really wish they hadn't done it, as it makes capital ship engagements utterly nonsensical.
Edit: "Hyperdrive missiles," here, is "asteroids we harvested from the Hoth system and strapped engines to."
You must be close enough to hit the target before you complete the jump to light speed.
This is a rule you just made up with no textual basis as far as I can tell
That is a rule you just made up with no textual basis either...(well except there is textual basis for hyoerspace not interacting with normal space)
In rogue one Vaders ship enters combat through the trajectory of ships jumping to light speed. In Star Wars the millennium falcon flies through the debris of Alderaan and when it exits hyperspace its directly being impacted by said debris. Han even says they “exited into a debris field”. In Solo they go to light speed inside a rock nebula maelstrom. Now maybe they all just missed while they were in light speed.
Or maybe there is actually textual evidence right from the first film that ships dont collide with small objects when theyre in hyperspace.
The other answer is that its a reasonable conclusion to make from the text of the film. Because unsupported suppositions which do not contradict the continuity of the film are at least as valid as those which knock them down. There is no point in any other movie where any mass interaction happens within hyperspace. Saying they it can happen is just as unsupported.
Theoretically, couldn’t you just pull them out of hyperspace right before impact so that they’re still traveling at whatever degree of sub-luminal you’re at when you exit hyperspace before slowing to a more navigable velocity?
Lining up hyperdrive missiles get shot by ties just as easily as lining up bombers. I dont understand why this is so necessary
You leave the hyperdrive missiles way out at the edge of the system, then transmit the targetting data to them. Then they jump and obliterate the target in a single strike with no opportunity for the enemy to counteract them, because FTL.
Honestly as amazing as the effect was in TLJ I really wish they hadn't done it, as it makes capital ship engagements utterly nonsensical.
Edit: "Hyperdrive missiles," here, is "asteroids we harvested from the Hoth system and strapped engines to."
You must be close enough to hit the target before you complete the jump to light speed.
This is a rule you just made up with no textual basis as far as I can tell
That is a rule you just made up with no textual basis either...(well except there is textual basis for hyoerspace not interacting with normal space)
In rogue one Vaders ship enters combat through the trajectory of ships jumping to light speed. In Star Wars the millennium falcon flies through the debris of Alderaan and when it exits hyperspace its directly being impacted by said debris. Han even says they “exited into a debris field”. In Solo they go to light speed inside a rock nebula maelstrom. Now maybe they all just missed while they were in light speed.
Or maybe there is actually textual evidence right from the first film that ships dont collide with small objects when theyre in hyperspace.
The other answer is that its a reasonable conclusion to make from the text of the film. Because unsupported suppositions which do not contradict the continuity of the film are at least as valid as those which knock them down. There is no point in any other movie where any mass interaction happens within hyperspace. Saying they it can happen is just as unsupported.
Theoretically, couldn’t you just pull them out of hyperspace right before impact so that they’re still traveling at whatever degree of sub-luminal you’re at when you exit hyperspace before slowing to a more navigable velocity?
Things seem to stop after hyperspace in Star Wars. However it works it doesn't seem to impart any velocity on the ship.
Lining up hyperdrive missiles get shot by ties just as easily as lining up bombers. I dont understand why this is so necessary
You leave the hyperdrive missiles way out at the edge of the system, then transmit the targetting data to them. Then they jump and obliterate the target in a single strike with no opportunity for the enemy to counteract them, because FTL.
Honestly as amazing as the effect was in TLJ I really wish they hadn't done it, as it makes capital ship engagements utterly nonsensical.
Edit: "Hyperdrive missiles," here, is "asteroids we harvested from the Hoth system and strapped engines to."
You must be close enough to hit the target before you complete the jump to light speed.
This is a rule you just made up with no textual basis as far as I can tell
That is a rule you just made up with no textual basis either...(well except there is textual basis for hyoerspace not interacting with normal space)
In rogue one Vaders ship enters combat through the trajectory of ships jumping to light speed. In Star Wars the millennium falcon flies through the debris of Alderaan and when it exits hyperspace its directly being impacted by said debris. Han even says they “exited into a debris field”. In Solo they go to light speed inside a rock nebula maelstrom. Now maybe they all just missed while they were in light speed.
Or maybe there is actually textual evidence right from the first film that ships dont collide with small objects when theyre in hyperspace.
The other answer is that its a reasonable conclusion to make from the text of the film. Because unsupported suppositions which do not contradict the continuity of the film are at least as valid as those which knock them down. There is no point in any other movie where any mass interaction happens within hyperspace. Saying they it can happen is just as unsupported.
Theoretically, couldn’t you just pull them out of hyperspace right before impact so that they’re still traveling at whatever degree of sub-luminal you’re at when you exit hyperspace before slowing to a more navigable velocity?
Nah. Otherwise vader would have spat in rogue 1 and the heroes would have as well alwhen jumping into alderaan.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Obviously the rules allowed for it, because I saw it happen
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
Dany was a character decision, not a "how the universe works" decision.
I mean, we can just sit here and say TLJ was bad and did a bad thing
On the other hand, there's a time-honored Star Wars fandom tradition of taking things that maybe don't make sense, like the Kessel Run parsec thing, and finding ways for them to make sense. Doesn't that seem like more fun?
I don't know what Star Wars fandom you've been reading but, lol, if you think theyre accepting of things that don't fit in the universe. And for evidence I submit one word:
Obviously the rules allowed for it, because I saw it happen
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
Dany was a character decision, not a "how the universe works" decision.
I mean, we can just sit here and say TLJ was bad and did a bad thing
On the other hand, there's a time-honored Star Wars fandom tradition of taking things that maybe don't make sense, like the Kessel Run parsec thing, and finding ways for them to make sense. Doesn't that seem like more fun?
I don't know what Star Wars fandom you've been reading but, lol, if you think theyre accepting of things that don't fit in the universe. And for evidence I submit one word:
Midichlorians
Midichlorians though is something that’s a thematic undermining of what seemed to be a core part of the series: a spiritual, supernatural manifestation of a collective life force.
Which then Lucas turned into a weird biological country club based on how many magic space cells you had.
This is, on the other hand is... well I’m not really sure what it is aside from being annoyed at a seemingly obvious use of mass times velocity that the series never used before, outside, again, an A-Wing barreling through a star destroyer bridge and crashing it
Lanz on
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Obviously the rules allowed for it, because I saw it happen
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
Dany was a character decision, not a "how the universe works" decision.
I mean, we can just sit here and say TLJ was bad and did a bad thing
On the other hand, there's a time-honored Star Wars fandom tradition of taking things that maybe don't make sense, like the Kessel Run parsec thing, and finding ways for them to make sense. Doesn't that seem like more fun?
I don't know what Star Wars fandom you've been reading but, lol, if you think theyre accepting of things that don't fit in the universe. And for evidence I submit one word:
Midichlorians
Midichlorians though is something that’s a thematic undermining of what seemed to be a core part of the series: a spiritual, supernatural manifestation of a collective life force.
Which then Lucas turned into a weird biological country club based on how many magic space cells you had.
This is, on the other hand is... well I’m not really sure what it is aside from being annoyed at a seemingly obvious use of mass times velocity that the series never used before, outside, again, an A-Wing barreling through a star destroyer bridge and crashing it
I think it's similar in that the Holdo Maneuver undermines hyperspace tech restrictions previously in the series and messes up the tech in warfare for the future of the series.
If anyone is ever on the verge of losing in a winner take all battle, the question will always hang over the series: "Why not just hyperspace ram their flagship with an almost toast ship?"
Obviously the rules allowed for it, because I saw it happen
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
Dany was a character decision, not a "how the universe works" decision.
I mean, we can just sit here and say TLJ was bad and did a bad thing
On the other hand, there's a time-honored Star Wars fandom tradition of taking things that maybe don't make sense, like the Kessel Run parsec thing, and finding ways for them to make sense. Doesn't that seem like more fun?
I don't know what Star Wars fandom you've been reading but, lol, if you think theyre accepting of things that don't fit in the universe. And for evidence I submit one word:
Midichlorians
Midichlorians though is something that’s a thematic undermining of what seemed to be a core part of the series: a spiritual, supernatural manifestation of a collective life force.
Which then Lucas turned into a weird biological country club based on how many magic space cells you had.
This is, on the other hand is... well I’m not really sure what it is aside from being annoyed at a seemingly obvious use of mass times velocity that the series never used before, outside, again, an A-Wing barreling through a star destroyer bridge and crashing it
I think it's similar in that the Holdo Maneuver undermines hyperspace tech restrictions previously in the series and messes up the tech in warfare for the future of the series.
If anyone is ever on the verge of losing in a winner take all battle, the question will always hang over the series: "Why not just hyperspace ram their flagship with an almost toast ship?"
Again
I have watched these movies for nearly as long as I have been alive and I have no idea what these restrictions you speak of are
Also the answer is likely going to be some variant of “will this tactic actually accomplish what I want it to” and “oh god do I have it in me to pull a suicide run”
Like, a hyperspace ram isn’t a magic “win” button. In the presented case, its primary result was to buy time and distance so the scattered resistance regroup planetside. The First Order still met them down there and continued the fight.
And that is, again, ignoring that Star Wars doesn’t have to be that kind of hard military sci-fi, and at least for the mainline stories never has been. It’s allowed it’s flights of fancy as long as it serves the story
Obviously the rules allowed for it, because I saw it happen
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
Dany was a character decision, not a "how the universe works" decision.
I mean, we can just sit here and say TLJ was bad and did a bad thing
On the other hand, there's a time-honored Star Wars fandom tradition of taking things that maybe don't make sense, like the Kessel Run parsec thing, and finding ways for them to make sense. Doesn't that seem like more fun?
I don't know what Star Wars fandom you've been reading but, lol, if you think theyre accepting of things that don't fit in the universe. And for evidence I submit one word:
Midichlorians
Midichlorians though is something that’s a thematic undermining of what seemed to be a core part of the series: a spiritual, supernatural manifestation of a collective life force.
Which then Lucas turned into a weird biological country club based on how many magic space cells you had.
This is, on the other hand is... well I’m not really sure what it is aside from being annoyed at a seemingly obvious use of mass times velocity that the series never used before, outside, again, an A-Wing barreling through a star destroyer bridge and crashing it
I think it's similar in that the Holdo Maneuver undermines hyperspace tech restrictions previously in the series and messes up the tech in warfare for the future of the series.
If anyone is ever on the verge of losing in a winner take all battle, the question will always hang over the series: "Why not just hyperspace ram their flagship with an almost toast ship?"
Because they will blow you up before you can and because if you can pull it off you could also just warp out and leave and not die.
It is explicitly presented in the movie that the only reason that it worked is because the command staff of the first order thought the ship was jumping away as a feint. They dedicate an entire shot to telling you this info.
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ObiFettUse the ForceAs You WishRegistered Userregular
Obviously the rules allowed for it, because I saw it happen
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
Dany was a character decision, not a "how the universe works" decision.
I mean, we can just sit here and say TLJ was bad and did a bad thing
On the other hand, there's a time-honored Star Wars fandom tradition of taking things that maybe don't make sense, like the Kessel Run parsec thing, and finding ways for them to make sense. Doesn't that seem like more fun?
I don't know what Star Wars fandom you've been reading but, lol, if you think theyre accepting of things that don't fit in the universe. And for evidence I submit one word:
Midichlorians
Midichlorians though is something that’s a thematic undermining of what seemed to be a core part of the series: a spiritual, supernatural manifestation of a collective life force.
Which then Lucas turned into a weird biological country club based on how many magic space cells you had.
This is, on the other hand is... well I’m not really sure what it is aside from being annoyed at a seemingly obvious use of mass times velocity that the series never used before, outside, again, an A-Wing barreling through a star destroyer bridge and crashing it
I think it's similar in that the Holdo Maneuver undermines hyperspace tech restrictions previously in the series and messes up the tech in warfare for the future of the series.
If anyone is ever on the verge of losing in a winner take all battle, the question will always hang over the series: "Why not just hyperspace ram their flagship with an almost toast ship?"
Because they will blow you up before you can and because if you can pull it off you could also just warp out and leave and not die.
It is explicitly presented in the movie that the only reason that it worked is because the command staff of the first order thought the ship was jumping away as a feint. They dedicate an entire shot to telling you this info.
And thats why it screws up future battles. If any ship is allowed to start up their hyperdrive and escape, then the opposition just risked having their side obliterated by a targeted Holdo. So any ship that starts spinning up hyperdrive should automatically become target number one. Every battle gets turned into no escape. And every escape was a potential battle winning sacrifice not made.
Any (sufficiently large) ship that is spinning its hyperdrive in range while pointed or moving to point at the enemy fleet that also is being engaged by a ship actively tracking its hyperspace jump so as to make actually running away not a viable tactic.... which it otherwise is
AND the first order was shooting at those ships anyway! They were not there to respect the resistances right to surrender. They shot defenseless ships they could have boarded and captured. The only reason they didnt fire om the ship was because they thought it was a decoy. If they thought it was full of people running away they would have obliterated it. They literally said this to your face in the movie, “No it doesnt have any people on it dont bother shooting the retreating ship”
So Galaxy's Edge opened over the weekend. That looked like a lot of fun.
The queue for the ride where you sit in a circle and argue endlessly about the real world ramifications of the Holdo Maneuver was pretty long. Seemed like people kept going back for multiple rides. Must be fun.
I mean you can talk about what you want to talk about but do you guys not think endlessly retreading the same shit is kind of unhealthy? They opened Galaxy's Edge over the weekend! You can sit in a Millennium Falcon cockpit and press buttons and stuff!
Since I encountered Darth Vader in VR, I lost some respect for him. He *badly* needs to exercise.
(And I absolutely agree with you, Bogart, though sometimes I think the unhealthy discussion loops we used to have in the Movies thread have become less frequent since the Star Wars thread became the main place for them. Perhaps this thread is something akin to a Sin Eater for D&D?)
Thirith on
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
Apparently you only get to visit Galaxy’s Edge for four hours, and making a lightsaber can take three hours. That seems kinda crazy to me. It’s probably really fun, but still, almost your whole visit is just you paying Disney another $225 for your souvenir. Less than ideal.
Since I encountered Darth Vader in VR, I lost some respect for him. He *badly* needs to exercise.
(And I absolutely agree with you, Bogart, though sometimes I think the unhealthy discussion loops we used to have in the Movies thread have become less frequent since the Star Wars thread became the main place for them. Perhaps this thread is something akin to a Sin Eater for D&D?)
I mean at some point it boils down to: People on the Internet Argue About Inane Things! Film at 11!
Frankly I'm just grateful about a Star Wars discussion that doesn't boil down to people unironically declaring "HOW DARE THEY MAKE THE LEADER OF THE REBELLION A WOMAN"
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Since I encountered Darth Vader in VR, I lost some respect for him. He *badly* needs to exercise.
(And I absolutely agree with you, Bogart, though sometimes I think the unhealthy discussion loops we used to have in the Movies thread have become less frequent since the Star Wars thread became the main place for them. Perhaps this thread is something akin to a Sin Eater for D&D?)
I mean at some point it boils down to: People on the Internet Argue About Inane Things! Film at 11!
Frankly I'm just grateful about a Star Wars discussion that doesn't boil down to people unironically declaring "HOW DARE THEY MAKE THE LEADER OF THE REBELLION A WOMAN"
I imagine there was probably some discussion of that back when RotJ came out.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Apparently you only get to visit Galaxy’s Edge for four hours, and making a lightsaber can take three hours. That seems kinda crazy to me. It’s probably really fun, but still, almost your whole visit is just you paying Disney another $225 for your souvenir. Less than ideal.
Since I encountered Darth Vader in VR, I lost some respect for him. He *badly* needs to exercise.
(And I absolutely agree with you, Bogart, though sometimes I think the unhealthy discussion loops we used to have in the Movies thread have become less frequent since the Star Wars thread became the main place for them. Perhaps this thread is something akin to a Sin Eater for D&D?)
I mean at some point it boils down to: People on the Internet Argue About Inane Things! Film at 11!
Frankly I'm just grateful about a Star Wars discussion that doesn't boil down to people unironically declaring "HOW DARE THEY MAKE THE LEADER OF THE REBELLION A WOMAN"
I imagine there was probably some discussion of that back when RotJ came out.
Sure. Except it never got father than some jackass in a bar not noticing everyone at the table rolling their eyes at him.
Apparently you only get to visit Galaxy’s Edge for four hours, and making a lightsaber can take three hours. That seems kinda crazy to me. It’s probably really fun, but still, almost your whole visit is just you paying Disney another $225 for your souvenir. Less than ideal.
Well it just opened up, I'm sure over time the process will get faster. Someone also said you can wait in "virtual" lines so you don't actually have to be in the park to wait for things losing your four hours.
I do wonder if that's 4 hours per day, or like 4 hours for a total trip, that has to be per day right?
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
edited June 2019
It is per day and I think I read it's only during the opening of the park, and is maybe something that would get brought back out at peak times.
And apparently stormtroopers come to escort you out of the park if you lie so that's a little hilarious. I almost just want to go to play hide and seek.
Apparently you only get to visit Galaxy’s Edge for four hours, and making a lightsaber can take three hours. That seems kinda crazy to me. It’s probably really fun, but still, almost your whole visit is just you paying Disney another $225 for your souvenir. Less than ideal.
Well it just opened up, I'm sure over time the process will get faster. Someone also said you can wait in "virtual" lines so you don't actually have to be in the park to wait for things losing your four hours.
I do wonder if that's 4 hours per day, or like 4 hours for a total trip, that has to be per day right?
Given that one of the two rides is not even operating yet, it seems like those wanting to maximize the bang for their buck should wait until attraction is fully armed and operational.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
It is per day and I think I read it's only during the opening of the park, and is maybe something that would get brought back out at peak times.
And apparently stormtroopers come to escort you out of the park if you lie so that's a little hilarious. I almost just want to go to play hide and seek.
I mean, it's Disney World, they can fucking see you.
The barrier being "it's prohibitively expensive to do".
Except there's not one single indication of this in the entire film setting. There are literally junkyards in ass-end of nowhere with hyperspace-capable ships. Ships that are considered functionally worthless can do this, and ships as small as fighter craft have the capability. Almost everything in the setting can use hyperspace, and it's actually a lot more rare to see a ship that can't fly in hyperspace. Even the worst shithole planet has hundreds of these ships flying around as well. Even a tiny planetary government would have the funds to scoop up a pile of junkers and turn them into weapons.
A drone ship that's a slug of metal with a hyperdrive is sure as shit going to be a fraction of the cost and effort as a big, complicated warship, and it's going to kill that big ship a lot easier than that big ship is going to be able to bust up a shielded hunk of inert metal before it can launch and wreck the ship. Or the previously-mentioned space rocks with engines, which aren't going to give a shit about getting their faces blasted off before they fire. Wouldn't even need to shield anything there except the maneuvering engines.
Small ships dont have enough mass. The tactics are easy to stop since the attacker must be in weapons range and traveling straight towards you and doverting power to the hyperdrive.
Metal slugs with hyperdrives get blasted away long before they have a chance to jump into a destroyer. A proton torpedo carries something around 10,000 times the energy a hyperjumping x-wing does
Based on... what? Because if you have to go to the books to get any additional info like the actual yield of a proton torpedo, then the books also explicitly say that shields protect against ships jumping into hyperspace. And proton torpedoes clearly are not nuclear warheads; they explode stuff in the movies, but the explosions aren't the size of warships. An unshielded vessel can get smashed by a misaimed hyperspace jump in the books, but otherwise they just smash against the shields and explode.
On top of that, I already pointed out that an X-wing hitting a tiny sliver of the speed of light on its way to hyperspeed would have several thousand times the energy of an atom bomb. With relativistic speeds in the mix, which hyperspace does involve, mass rapidly becomes irrelevant. And size is clearly no issue in the Star Wars setting anyway; there's an infinite cheap supply of large ships and objects to use for such an attack.
Based on math.
How much damage did the crusier do to the fleet? A: that much damage. We saw exactly how much damage it did. You do not need to estimate mass and velocity or anything else to get a joule number we know exactly how much it was because we saw it.
How much damage would an x-wing sized object do to a fleet? A: that much damage divided by 1 million. Because an x-wing, being 100 times smaller than the cruiser has roughly 1million times* less mass and kinetic energy is directly proportional to mass.
The cruiser destroyed like... 20 ships and 20/1,000,000 = 1/50,000. Which is to say you would need 50,000 x-wing sized hyperdrives to kill a star destroyer...
How many torpedos does it take to take out an Star destroyer? Not actually that many
You do not get to say “mass is irrelevant” because mass is clearly relevant. We know how much damage a million 12 meter long steel objects do to a fleet because we have seen it.
Disclaimer: I think the entire "jump to hyperspace to destroy the fleet maneuver" is a mistake.
You have a flawed assumption in your reasoning; that is that the cruiser did just enough damage to destroy an enemy capital ship without any waste. Which certainly isn't the case, as the cruiser had to affect a very large volume of space in order to hit and destroy that many capital ships.
Your analogy is like saying that you saw in WW2 a destroyer ram a carrier to sink it, and determining that kamikaze plane attacks wouldn't work because of the mass difference.
Obviously the rules allowed for it, because I saw it happen
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
Dany was a character decision, not a "how the universe works" decision.
I mean, we can just sit here and say TLJ was bad and did a bad thing
On the other hand, there's a time-honored Star Wars fandom tradition of taking things that maybe don't make sense, like the Kessel Run parsec thing, and finding ways for them to make sense. Doesn't that seem like more fun?
I don't know what Star Wars fandom you've been reading but, lol, if you think theyre accepting of things that don't fit in the universe. And for evidence I submit one word:
Midichlorians
Midichlorians though is something that’s a thematic undermining of what seemed to be a core part of the series: a spiritual, supernatural manifestation of a collective life force.
Which then Lucas turned into a weird biological country club based on how many magic space cells you had.
This is, on the other hand is... well I’m not really sure what it is aside from being annoyed at a seemingly obvious use of mass times velocity that the series never used before, outside, again, an A-Wing barreling through a star destroyer bridge and crashing it
I think it's similar in that the Holdo Maneuver undermines hyperspace tech restrictions previously in the series and messes up the tech in warfare for the future of the series.
If anyone is ever on the verge of losing in a winner take all battle, the question will always hang over the series: "Why not just hyperspace ram their flagship with an almost toast ship?"
You mean like the question hangs over every iteration of Voltron, "Why don't they just pull out the Blazing Sword right away?"
Because they don't. Because the dramatic structure of the show - most versions, at least - doesn't work like that. That's gamer/strategist thinking, not storyteller/narrative.
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Take the new trilogy from the Game of Thrones guys, hold a seance and give the reins to the ghost of Terry Pratchett
This is a rule you just made up with no textual basis as far as I can tell
what?
They didnt establish that they weren't related.
Both of the other things are vague statements made by Obi that don't actually break upon finding out the truth.
Those aren't equivalent at all to tech being used in a way that, arguably, the rules didn't allow for.
Mistrusting the observations because they don’t match your theories is religion, not science
Sure it happened. But I'm saying it was bad writing given the surrounding universe and retroactively makes previously established rules of the same universe make little sense.
Kind of like many people argued the ending of GoT was with regards to Dany.
Just because a writer has the ability to write in a given universe, it doesn't make their writing decisions within that universe infallible or sensical.
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That is a rule you just made up with no textual basis either...(well except there is textual basis for hyoerspace not interacting with normal space)
In rogue one Vaders ship enters combat through the trajectory of ships jumping to light speed. In Star Wars the millennium falcon flies through the debris of Alderaan and when it exits hyperspace its directly being impacted by said debris. Han even says they “exited into a debris field”. In Solo they go to light speed inside a rock nebula maelstrom. Now maybe they all just missed while they were in light speed.
Or maybe there is actually textual evidence right from the first film that ships dont collide with small objects when theyre in hyperspace.
The other answer is that its a reasonable conclusion to make from the text of the film. Because unsupported suppositions which do not contradict the continuity of the film are at least as valid as those which knock them down. There is no point in any other movie where any mass interaction happens within hyperspace. Saying they it can happen is just as unsupported.
Do you consume media with the assumption that characters are all related to each other?
Generally speaking, one has to specify that characters are related.
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Dany was a character decision, not a "how the universe works" decision.
I mean, we can just sit here and say TLJ was bad and did a bad thing
On the other hand, there's a time-honored Star Wars fandom tradition of taking things that maybe don't make sense, like the Kessel Run parsec thing, and finding ways for them to make sense. Doesn't that seem like more fun?
Theoretically, couldn’t you just pull them out of hyperspace right before impact so that they’re still traveling at whatever degree of sub-luminal you’re at when you exit hyperspace before slowing to a more navigable velocity?
Things seem to stop after hyperspace in Star Wars. However it works it doesn't seem to impart any velocity on the ship.
Nah. Otherwise vader would have spat in rogue 1 and the heroes would have as well alwhen jumping into alderaan.
Midichlorians
Midichlorians though is something that’s a thematic undermining of what seemed to be a core part of the series: a spiritual, supernatural manifestation of a collective life force.
Which then Lucas turned into a weird biological country club based on how many magic space cells you had.
This is, on the other hand is... well I’m not really sure what it is aside from being annoyed at a seemingly obvious use of mass times velocity that the series never used before, outside, again, an A-Wing barreling through a star destroyer bridge and crashing it
I think it's similar in that the Holdo Maneuver undermines hyperspace tech restrictions previously in the series and messes up the tech in warfare for the future of the series.
If anyone is ever on the verge of losing in a winner take all battle, the question will always hang over the series: "Why not just hyperspace ram their flagship with an almost toast ship?"
Again
I have watched these movies for nearly as long as I have been alive and I have no idea what these restrictions you speak of are
Like, a hyperspace ram isn’t a magic “win” button. In the presented case, its primary result was to buy time and distance so the scattered resistance regroup planetside. The First Order still met them down there and continued the fight.
And that is, again, ignoring that Star Wars doesn’t have to be that kind of hard military sci-fi, and at least for the mainline stories never has been. It’s allowed it’s flights of fancy as long as it serves the story
Myths
These are myths and legends. They literally begin “A Long Time Ago, in a Galaxy Far Far Away.”
Because they will blow you up before you can and because if you can pull it off you could also just warp out and leave and not die.
It is explicitly presented in the movie that the only reason that it worked is because the command staff of the first order thought the ship was jumping away as a feint. They dedicate an entire shot to telling you this info.
And thats why it screws up future battles. If any ship is allowed to start up their hyperdrive and escape, then the opposition just risked having their side obliterated by a targeted Holdo. So any ship that starts spinning up hyperdrive should automatically become target number one. Every battle gets turned into no escape. And every escape was a potential battle winning sacrifice not made.
AND the first order was shooting at those ships anyway! They were not there to respect the resistances right to surrender. They shot defenseless ships they could have boarded and captured. The only reason they didnt fire om the ship was because they thought it was a decoy. If they thought it was full of people running away they would have obliterated it. They literally said this to your face in the movie, “No it doesnt have any people on it dont bother shooting the retreating ship”
So no; it does no such thing as youre claiming.
The queue for the ride where you sit in a circle and argue endlessly about the real world ramifications of the Holdo Maneuver was pretty long. Seemed like people kept going back for multiple rides. Must be fun.
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Hang on. That was sarcasm, wasn't it?
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
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But not fly to the US or stand 100 hours in line to get in.
You can make your own lightsaber at Eurodisney. I don't know how they compare to the ones being discussed but they look nice.
(And I absolutely agree with you, Bogart, though sometimes I think the unhealthy discussion loops we used to have in the Movies thread have become less frequent since the Star Wars thread became the main place for them. Perhaps this thread is something akin to a Sin Eater for D&D?)
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I mean at some point it boils down to: People on the Internet Argue About Inane Things! Film at 11!
Frankly I'm just grateful about a Star Wars discussion that doesn't boil down to people unironically declaring "HOW DARE THEY MAKE THE LEADER OF THE REBELLION A WOMAN"
I imagine there was probably some discussion of that back when RotJ came out.
I mean, Disney knows how to get those bills.
Sure. Except it never got father than some jackass in a bar not noticing everyone at the table rolling their eyes at him.
Things have kinda changed since then.
Well it just opened up, I'm sure over time the process will get faster. Someone also said you can wait in "virtual" lines so you don't actually have to be in the park to wait for things losing your four hours.
I do wonder if that's 4 hours per day, or like 4 hours for a total trip, that has to be per day right?
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And apparently stormtroopers come to escort you out of the park if you lie so that's a little hilarious. I almost just want to go to play hide and seek.
Given that one of the two rides is not even operating yet, it seems like those wanting to maximize the bang for their buck should wait until attraction is fully armed and operational.
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I mean, it's Disney World, they can fucking see you.
Disclaimer: I think the entire "jump to hyperspace to destroy the fleet maneuver" is a mistake.
You have a flawed assumption in your reasoning; that is that the cruiser did just enough damage to destroy an enemy capital ship without any waste. Which certainly isn't the case, as the cruiser had to affect a very large volume of space in order to hit and destroy that many capital ships.
Your analogy is like saying that you saw in WW2 a destroyer ram a carrier to sink it, and determining that kamikaze plane attacks wouldn't work because of the mass difference.
You mean like the question hangs over every iteration of Voltron, "Why don't they just pull out the Blazing Sword right away?"
Because they don't. Because the dramatic structure of the show - most versions, at least - doesn't work like that. That's gamer/strategist thinking, not storyteller/narrative.