No but see everything worked out which means they were retroactively wrong for worrying and therefore we shouldn’t ever worry about safety issues surrounding nuclear power
...yeah, kind of
You know
I understand modern reactors are much safer
But this idea that nuclear fission is fine and there are no real side-effects is silly. Fissile material and fission byproducts are some of the nastiest materials on the face of the earth, only outdone by some real corkers of manmade chemicals.
Shit is dangerous and requires huge amounts of safety.
Modern reactors are vastly safer than the one at Chernobyl, to the point where they are sophisticated enough that they pretty much cannot break in a catastrophic way by any known method. They are far safer than coal, gas or oil burning power stations. But, the outcome of us being wrong about the design is still incredibly serious and they must be monitored by experts at all times.
I'd live across the street from one quite happily, but, I would not let a high schooler build one in her back yard.
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
No but see everything worked out which means they were retroactively wrong for worrying and therefore we shouldn’t ever worry about safety issues surrounding nuclear power
...yeah, kind of
You know
I understand modern reactors are much safer
But this idea that nuclear fission is fine and there are no real side-effects is silly. Fissile material and fission byproducts are some of the nastiest materials on the face of the earth, only outdone by some real corkers of manmade chemicals.
Shit is dangerous and requires huge amounts of safety.
Even at the time it would have literally been impossible for a disaster on the scale of Chernobyl to happen pretty much anywhere else. American/European reactors effectively have the sarcophagus built and installed before the reactor is ever fueled.
Fission byproducts are bad shit but we have pretty good ways of dealing with them. They're also very compact, luckily, so even if something screws up the damage is relatively contained unless it hours the water table.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
Also, like, dying of cancer over a couple dozen years may not be a movie monster death, but it is still a horrible thing that people are going to be rightly afraid of.
Saying “this is a death sentence” when the reality is “this has shortened your lifespan by 20-30 years” is broadly accurate.
That’s not really how it works though. However I couldn’t give you an estimated increased cancer risk without knowing the dose rates down there
Well it's not quite that simple, there isn't just a danger of radiation absorption, there's also tons of Uranium Dioxide everywhere which is easily absorbed by the body and since no one is wearing masks everyone is just breathing it in. So yeah, it's safe to say that hanging out in the city was a death sentence.
of the people who hung out there the longest, there was a noticeable spike in cancer rates, statistically significant, but from the books like Voices of Chernobyl, we see that many of the people who stayed in the city the longest are still alive. Available statistics of the liquidators who spent the most time in the city, only 10% of them were dead in 2006, 20 years on from the disaster. The stats on cancer deaths of deaths attributable to radiation are very cloudy the the point of useless, but I mean, 10% dead after 20 full years, counting all types of death, is not consistent with the level of danger implied by the show.
That's not to say the show isn't repeating faithfully what people believed at the time it's just that the effects were significantly less than feared. I don't think this makes the show less good or less important or less impactful. Nor does it diminish its core message. I just think it's important to note while watching it.
The average dose to a liquidator was estimated to be 120 mSv. This is equivalent to approximately a 1% increase in cancer risk, lifetime, to a baseline of about 40% (and assumes the liquidator received the entire dose instantaneously) and is probably conservative
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
Also, the “4000 dead due to radiation” number is only a calculation based on these conservative estimates
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Donkey KongPutting Nintendo out of business with AI nipsRegistered Userregular
Also, like, dying of cancer over a couple dozen years may not be a movie monster death, but it is still a horrible thing that people are going to be rightly afraid of.
Saying “this is a death sentence” when the reality is “this has shortened your lifespan by 20-30 years” is broadly accurate.
That’s not really how it works though. However I couldn’t give you an estimated increased cancer risk without knowing the dose rates down there
Well it's not quite that simple, there isn't just a danger of radiation absorption, there's also tons of Uranium Dioxide everywhere which is easily absorbed by the body and since no one is wearing masks everyone is just breathing it in. So yeah, it's safe to say that hanging out in the city was a death sentence.
of the people who hung out there the longest, there was a noticeable spike in cancer rates, statistically significant, but from the books like Voices of Chernobyl, we see that many of the people who stayed in the city the longest are still alive. Available statistics of the liquidators who spent the most time in the city, only 10% of them were dead in 2006, 20 years on from the disaster. The stats on cancer deaths of deaths attributable to radiation are very cloudy the the point of useless, but I mean, 10% dead after 20 full years, counting all types of death, is not consistent with the level of danger implied by the show.
That's not to say the show isn't repeating faithfully what people believed at the time it's just that the effects were significantly less than feared. I don't think this makes the show less good or less important or less impactful. Nor does it diminish its core message. I just think it's important to note while watching it.
Is that liquidators generally, or the 3500 odd who went on the roof?
In the podcast I think it’s stated that 1/3 (1/2?) of the miners later died to radiation related illnesses.
That was all the liquidators, of which they assumed there would be a huge number of them dead of radiation within years. The show guessed a hundred thousand or more dead of the 600k or so liquidators. But when all was said and done the liquidators did ok given their exposure levels.
The miners were assumed to all be dead but only about 25% died as a direct result of radiation poisoning (cancer years later is tricky to quantify as they were coal miners and their baseline cancer risk was both high already and unknown).
It's kind of amazing so few people died considering expectations and the doses of radiation.
Also since a few people have mentioned it, I'm not saying "everything worked out so the show was wrong". I'm not saying anything about the show's predictions of the risk in nearby cities if the disaster were left unchecked. I'm specifically referring to the risk to cleanup crews who were there, in the thick of it, whose lives were all but assumed forfeit.
Thousands of hot, local singles are waiting to play at bubbulon.com.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
Also, like, dying of cancer over a couple dozen years may not be a movie monster death, but it is still a horrible thing that people are going to be rightly afraid of.
Saying “this is a death sentence” when the reality is “this has shortened your lifespan by 20-30 years” is broadly accurate.
That’s not really how it works though. However I couldn’t give you an estimated increased cancer risk without knowing the dose rates down there
Well it's not quite that simple, there isn't just a danger of radiation absorption, there's also tons of Uranium Dioxide everywhere which is easily absorbed by the body and since no one is wearing masks everyone is just breathing it in. So yeah, it's safe to say that hanging out in the city was a death sentence.
of the people who hung out there the longest, there was a noticeable spike in cancer rates, statistically significant, but from the books like Voices of Chernobyl, we see that many of the people who stayed in the city the longest are still alive. Available statistics of the liquidators who spent the most time in the city, only 10% of them were dead in 2006, 20 years on from the disaster. The stats on cancer deaths of deaths attributable to radiation are very cloudy the the point of useless, but I mean, 10% dead after 20 full years, counting all types of death, is not consistent with the level of danger implied by the show.
That's not to say the show isn't repeating faithfully what people believed at the time it's just that the effects were significantly less than feared. I don't think this makes the show less good or less important or less impactful. Nor does it diminish its core message. I just think it's important to note while watching it.
Is that liquidators generally, or the 3500 odd who went on the roof?
In the podcast I think it’s stated that 1/3 (1/2?) of the miners later died to radiation related illnesses.
That was all the liquidators, of which they assumed there would be a huge number of them dead of radiation within years. The show guessed a hundred thousand or more dead of the 600k or so liquidators. But when all was said and done the liquidators did ok given their exposure levels.
The miners were assumed to all be dead but only about 25% died as a direct result of radiation poisoning (cancer years later is tricky to quantify as they were coal miners and their baseline cancer risk was both high already and unknown).
It's kind of amazing so few people died considering expectations and the doses of radiation.
Also since a few people have mentioned it, I'm not saying "everything worked out so the show was wrong". I'm not saying anything about the show's predictions of the risk in nearby cities if the disaster were left unchecked. I'm specifically referring to the risk to cleanup crews who were there, in the thick of it, whose lives were all but assumed forfeit.
A lot of the terminology used in these articles is just incorrect, by the way. I see ones stating the miners were exposed to “fatal doses of radiation for days on end” (not true, or they’d be dead). “Radiation poisoning” also seems to get used incorrectly a lot. It’s not radiation poisoning to be exposed to radiation, even if you develop cancer years later and die
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Chernobyl seems like a good argument that maybe deep space related radiation isn't as big a problem as everyone thinks?
Looking at data I don’t think it would be so bad. It’s certainly higher than on earth, but 1 rad in 9 days comes to a dose rate of 4.63 mrad/hr, only about double the legal dose rate to a member of the public
I don’t expect you’d see SIGNIFICANTLY higher cancer rates with space travel, but, who knows
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
Hmm an estimated mars mission would be 1.2 Sv over 3 years. That’s a solid dose. The chronicity of the exposure helps, but it’s still significant. If it was a one time trip, probably not so bad
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Not that it matters, but has anyone else been keeping track of the Game of Thrones actors popping up in this? So far I've seen Maester Luwin, Dagmer Cleftjaw, Pyp, and Jeor Mormont, and it looks like we're getting Roose Bolton next week.
Not that it matters, but has anyone else been keeping track of the Game of Thrones actors popping up in this? So far I've seen Maester Luwin, Dagmer Cleftjaw, Pyp, and Jeor Mormont, and it looks like we're getting Roose Bolton next week.
Laura Elphinstone appeared back to back in both Pripyat Hostital and King's landing within the same week. What a cursed life...
Not that it matters, but has anyone else been keeping track of the Game of Thrones actors popping up in this? So far I've seen Maester Luwin, Dagmer Cleftjaw, Pyp, and Jeor Mormont, and it looks like we're getting Roose Bolton next week.
Laura Elphinstone appeared back to back in both Pripyat Hostital and King's landing within the same week. What a cursed life...
"It's okay sweetie, we've moved as far away from nuclear reactors as possible. I was sure you wouldn't make it, but it's been 5 years and you're strong and healthy and reactors dont exist here in westeros"
I mean, the message of Chernobyl is not that nuclear power is bad and dangerous. The message of Chernobyl is that bureaucracy and personal cowardice on the part of self-interested individuals kills.
EDIT: Like, the fundamental failure of what happened at Chernobyl was administrative in nature.
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I mean, the message of Chernobyl is not that nuclear power is bad and dangerous. The message of Chernobyl is that bureaucracy and personal cowardice on the part of self-interested individuals kills.
EDIT: Like, the fundamental failure of what happened at Chernobyl was administrative in nature.
Yes, it's quite clearly about a system designed wherein everyone simply covers their own ass ends up being horrific.
Dude kept saying THERE WAS NO EXPLOSION when there quite clearly was, because admitting there was an explosion would have been the end of his career.
They found the problem with the graphite tips on the boron rods and nobody changed a thing, they just removed it from the manual.
Nuclear power and its constituent parts can be contained through modern means quite well, but in the hands of the wrong people in the wrong system it can be absolutely catastrophic.
A nice little detail I love about this series is in the sound mixing and how the soundtrack seems to subtly pop and fizzle in relation to how close anyone is to the reactor, as if physical magnetic tape is being effected by radiation.
And a shout to Hildur Guõnadóttir's score as well, which appropriately sounds like a giant machine in its sad death throes.
A nice little detail I love about this series is in the sound mixing and how the soundtrack seems to subtly pop and fizzle in relation to how close anyone is to the reactor, as if physical magnetic tape is being effected by radiation.
And a shout to Hildur Guõnadóttir's score as well, which appropriately sounds like a giant machine in its sad death throes.
It sounds like a subtle GM detector mixed in
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Is anyone able to think up a better way to push graphite off the worst roof besides using people or robots? I say get two helicopters, a heavy metal pipe, and a very long strap or chain. The pipe hangs between the two copters and is dragged along the roof, scraping the debris towards The Glowing Hole. I am not sure how they would avoid flying directly over said hole. Option 2 would be dropping the heavy pipe the length of the roof with 500 yards of chain on the far end. Grab the ends of the chain, run them on the ground around The Glowing Hole, tie them to a truck and drag the debris and the pipe over the edge.
I think they had already had the sides of the sarcophagus built and the plant was surrounded by tall cranes, which made flying close hazardous on top of the radiation from the core. A helicopter already smashed into one during this phase, and I'm sure they didn't want to cause any more damage to the structure/roof by dragging heavy objects across it would be my guess.
I think they had already had the sides of the sarcophagus built and the plant was already surrounded by tall cranes, which made flying close hazardous on top of the radiation from the core. A helicopter already smashed into one during this phase, and I'm sure they didn't want to cause any more damage to the structure/roof by dragging heavy objects across it.
Wait, they had two helicopters fall on the wreckage? One during the fire and one during the concrete pouring?
I think they had already had the sides of the sarcophagus built and the plant was already surrounded by tall cranes, which made flying close hazardous on top of the radiation from the core. A helicopter already smashed into one during this phase, and I'm sure they didn't want to cause any more damage to the structure/roof by dragging heavy objects across it.
Wait, they had two helicopters fall on the wreckage? One during the fire and one during the concrete pouring?
No, they shuffled that around for dramatic effect in the show. I think they wanted to illustrate the dangers of being anywhere near the core early on, and since they weren't going to highlight the construction of the sarcophagus they just pushed the incident ahead a bit.
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y2jake215certified Flat Birther theoristthe Last Good Boy onlineRegistered Userregular
edited May 2019
There are applications in the US that do the same thing - workers going 60 seconds at a time and getting their yearly dose in one go. Sometimes you just need a human being
Though it’s “ don’t exceed X seconds or you’ll surpass the NRC occupational dose limits”, not “or you’ll die”
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There are applications in the US that do the same thing - workers going 60 seconds at a time and getting their yearly dose in one go. Sometimes you just need a human being
If you're one of these people, you can never go suntanning.
You can find footage of the helicopter crash on YouTube but I won't link it here. Apparently they also had to switch pilots out in shifts since some would become violently ill both in the air and upon landing. So couple that with flying near giant crane wires and it's a recipe for disaster.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
That was something that wasn’t very clear to me in the show, that the helicopter ran into wires.
Since I watch a lot of movies I kind of assumed it was EM interference of some kind that made the electronics on the helicopter no longer work
I realize this is probably bad science though
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
The show representation/implication was that the radiation crashed the chopper (via distrupting the pilot or "radiation bad") but the actual event was a chaotic flight environment and getting too close to the crane cables.
The show representation/implication was that the radiation crashed the chopper (via distrupting the pilot or "radiation bad") but the actual event was a chaotic flight environment and getting too close to the crane cables.
Little bit of dramatization in there.
I don’t agree, they represent the radiation with the radio going static and not being able to warn the pilot in time. But the helicopter clearly is shown clipping a wire with the rotor due to the smoke being a visual obstacle.
The show representation/implication was that the radiation crashed the chopper (via distrupting the pilot or "radiation bad") but the actual event was a chaotic flight environment and getting too close to the crane cables.
Little bit of dramatization in there.
You can see the helicopter hits a crane cable in the show. There's a lot going on, but you can definitely see two loads dropping out of the sky (one being the helicopter's, the other being the crane's) when the helicopter crashes.
Yeah, the 'copter runs into the cables as well in the show, and it's insinuated that they were disoriented from the smoke and radiation, but it doesn't make sense for that crane to be there at the time.
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
Yeah, the 'copter runs into the cables as well in the show, and it's insinuated that they were disoriented from the smoke and radiation, but it doesn't make sense for that crane to be there at the time.
The show representation/implication was that the radiation crashed the chopper (via distrupting the pilot or "radiation bad") but the actual event was a chaotic flight environment and getting too close to the crane cables.
Little bit of dramatization in there.
I don’t agree, they represent the radiation with the radio going static and not being able to warn the pilot in time. But the helicopter clearly is shown clipping a wire with the rotor due to the smoke being a visual obstacle.
Ah, you're right I just watched it again. I misremembered.
I wish they would have talked about (like Legasov explainign it, or maybe he did and I missed it) the beam shining into the sky in episode 1 more. That was f'n ominous.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
I wish they would have talked about (like Legasov explainign it, or maybe he did and I missed it) the beam shining into the sky in episode 1 more. That was f'n ominous.
He did, he was freaking out about it and explaining why but iirc nobody really cared that much
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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HonkHonk is this poster.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
I wish they would have talked about (like Legasov explainign it, or maybe he did and I missed it) the beam shining into the sky in episode 1 more. That was f'n ominous.
At least from the companion podcast they mention it as the radiation is too stronk and ripping the air apart, ionizing it. Which apparently makes a pleasant glow.
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Modern reactors are vastly safer than the one at Chernobyl, to the point where they are sophisticated enough that they pretty much cannot break in a catastrophic way by any known method. They are far safer than coal, gas or oil burning power stations. But, the outcome of us being wrong about the design is still incredibly serious and they must be monitored by experts at all times.
I'd live across the street from one quite happily, but, I would not let a high schooler build one in her back yard.
Even at the time it would have literally been impossible for a disaster on the scale of Chernobyl to happen pretty much anywhere else. American/European reactors effectively have the sarcophagus built and installed before the reactor is ever fueled.
Fission byproducts are bad shit but we have pretty good ways of dealing with them. They're also very compact, luckily, so even if something screws up the damage is relatively contained unless it hours the water table.
The average dose to a liquidator was estimated to be 120 mSv. This is equivalent to approximately a 1% increase in cancer risk, lifetime, to a baseline of about 40% (and assumes the liquidator received the entire dose instantaneously) and is probably conservative
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That was all the liquidators, of which they assumed there would be a huge number of them dead of radiation within years. The show guessed a hundred thousand or more dead of the 600k or so liquidators. But when all was said and done the liquidators did ok given their exposure levels.
The miners were assumed to all be dead but only about 25% died as a direct result of radiation poisoning (cancer years later is tricky to quantify as they were coal miners and their baseline cancer risk was both high already and unknown).
It's kind of amazing so few people died considering expectations and the doses of radiation.
Also since a few people have mentioned it, I'm not saying "everything worked out so the show was wrong". I'm not saying anything about the show's predictions of the risk in nearby cities if the disaster were left unchecked. I'm specifically referring to the risk to cleanup crews who were there, in the thick of it, whose lives were all but assumed forfeit.
A lot of the terminology used in these articles is just incorrect, by the way. I see ones stating the miners were exposed to “fatal doses of radiation for days on end” (not true, or they’d be dead). “Radiation poisoning” also seems to get used incorrectly a lot. It’s not radiation poisoning to be exposed to radiation, even if you develop cancer years later and die
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There's no media to block it in space, like air.
Looking at data I don’t think it would be so bad. It’s certainly higher than on earth, but 1 rad in 9 days comes to a dose rate of 4.63 mrad/hr, only about double the legal dose rate to a member of the public
I don’t expect you’d see SIGNIFICANTLY higher cancer rates with space travel, but, who knows
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
maybe i'm streaming terrible dj right now if i am its here
Laura Elphinstone appeared back to back in both Pripyat Hostital and King's landing within the same week. What a cursed life...
"It's okay sweetie, we've moved as far away from nuclear reactors as possible. I was sure you wouldn't make it, but it's been 5 years and you're strong and healthy and reactors dont exist here in westeros"
EDIT: Like, the fundamental failure of what happened at Chernobyl was administrative in nature.
Yes, it's quite clearly about a system designed wherein everyone simply covers their own ass ends up being horrific.
Dude kept saying THERE WAS NO EXPLOSION when there quite clearly was, because admitting there was an explosion would have been the end of his career.
They found the problem with the graphite tips on the boron rods and nobody changed a thing, they just removed it from the manual.
Nuclear power and its constituent parts can be contained through modern means quite well, but in the hands of the wrong people in the wrong system it can be absolutely catastrophic.
"In Soviet Russia, atom splits you"
And a shout to Hildur Guõnadóttir's score as well, which appropriately sounds like a giant machine in its sad death throes.
:?
After watching Ep 3 it seemed in poor taste.
It sounds like a subtle GM detector mixed in
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Now you look like the minister of coal.
Wait, they had two helicopters fall on the wreckage? One during the fire and one during the concrete pouring?
No, they shuffled that around for dramatic effect in the show. I think they wanted to illustrate the dangers of being anywhere near the core early on, and since they weren't going to highlight the construction of the sarcophagus they just pushed the incident ahead a bit.
Though it’s “ don’t exceed X seconds or you’ll surpass the NRC occupational dose limits”, not “or you’ll die”
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If you're one of these people, you can never go suntanning.
Since I watch a lot of movies I kind of assumed it was EM interference of some kind that made the electronics on the helicopter no longer work
I realize this is probably bad science though
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
But given the subsequent interactions with the robot your interpretation makes more sense.
Little bit of dramatization in there.
I don’t agree, they represent the radiation with the radio going static and not being able to warn the pilot in time. But the helicopter clearly is shown clipping a wire with the rotor due to the smoke being a visual obstacle.
You can see the helicopter hits a crane cable in the show. There's a lot going on, but you can definitely see two loads dropping out of the sky (one being the helicopter's, the other being the crane's) when the helicopter crashes.
You can’t make that crane move it was there first
Ah, you're right I just watched it again. I misremembered.
He did, he was freaking out about it and explaining why but iirc nobody really cared that much
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
At least from the companion podcast they mention it as the radiation is too stronk and ripping the air apart, ionizing it. Which apparently makes a pleasant glow.