JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
Also, not to put too fine a point on it but the Democrats do in fact wield power at the moment, so it is somewhat silly to go "look we are doing a thing with no hope of effecting immediate change!" as a response. Maybe Pelosi could talk about what she will actually do to effect change with her majority instead of coming up with these dumb plans.
There's a bunch of the freshmen who won in red districts in that vote: McBath, Porter, Slotkin, Spanberger, Underwood, Stevens as some I recognize immediately.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Also, not to put too fine a point on it but the Democrats do in fact wield power at the moment, so it is somewhat silly to go "look we are doing a thing with no hope of effecting immediate change!" as a response. Maybe Pelosi could talk about what she will actually do to effect change with her majority instead of coming up with these dumb plans.
They have the power to oppose things and investigate things, and the former requires near unanimity to be effective.
It's better than nothing, but it's still easy to plow over them. And the power they have is fragile, because a lot of it stems from moderate and red state dems who have to worry about being tossed out in 18 months if their constituency is displeased. So every action has to be balanced as the effective use of what is effectively symbolic power NOW vs the real power they might wield LATER if the dems take the White House and/or Senate in 2020.
So even if a congressperson is enthusiastically for a given action, they have to consider whether they want to bank on symbolically doing something now if it might jeopardize being able to actually do the thing for realsies in a couple years.
I think the dems should be shrieking with rage about this every chance they get, but I also get that not every vote calculation is because they are feckless cowards who hate babies or whatever. I'm also somewhat leery of the logic of accelerationism that says making things more uncomfortable for detainees now will help us make things better in the future, because the only guarantee is that things are more uncomfortable now.
I submitted an entry to Lego Ideas, and if 10,000 people support me, it'll be turned into an actual Lego set!If you'd like to see and support my submission, follow this link.
+3
Options
JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
Also, not to put too fine a point on it but the Democrats do in fact wield power at the moment, so it is somewhat silly to go "look we are doing a thing with no hope of effecting immediate change!" as a response. Maybe Pelosi could talk about what she will actually do to effect change with her majority instead of coming up with these dumb plans.
They have the power to oppose things and investigate things, and the former requires near unanimity to be effective.
It's better than nothing, but it's still easy to plow over them. And the power they have is fragile, because a lot of it stems from moderate and red state dems who have to worry about being tossed out in 18 months if their constituency is displeased. So every action has to be balanced as the effective use of what is effectively symbolic power NOW vs the real power they might wield LATER if the dems take the White House and/or Senate in 2020.
So even if a congressperson is enthusiastically for a given action, they have to consider whether they want to bank on symbolically doing something now if it might jeopardize being able to actually do the thing for realsies in a couple years.
I think the dems should be shrieking with rage about this every chance they get, but I also get that not every vote calculation is because they are feckless cowards who hate babies or whatever. I'm also somewhat leery of the logic of accelerationism that says making things more uncomfortable for detainees now will help us make things better in the future, because the only guarantee is that things are more uncomfortable now.
Control of just one of two houses is not super powerful, but it is a bit silly to dismiss it as just "better than nothing". They have the power to both propose laws and prevent bills from becoming law. And besides their investigative powers they also have the power of impeachment. Pretending their power is insignificant is ridiculous.
More importantly, if there are issues with wielding that power effectively then the focus should be on fixing that instead of proposing meaningless shit. If some peeps are worried about losing their seat in 18 fucking months, then efforts should be made towards ensuring that doesn't happen.
Even more importantly, if opposing concentration camps is seen as merely symbolic or less important than keeping one's seat, there is something incredibly wrong with your party.,
It's important for Dems in weak positions electorally to consider when is the appropriate time to stick their neck out. Cause a Democrat president with a republican Senate and House won't go well, as has been demonstrated already.
It's important for Dems in weak positions electorally to consider when is the appropriate time to stick their neck out. Cause a Democrat president with a republican Senate and House won't go well, as has been demonstrated already.
It's important for Dems in weak positions electorally to consider when is the appropriate time to stick their neck out. Cause a Democrat president with a republican Senate and House won't go well, as has been demonstrated already.
If not now, when?
Dunno. But I'm sure with every do-or-die imminent must pass now bill that comes up leadership and rank and file think about this exact problem
+3
Options
JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
It's important for Dems in weak positions electorally to consider when is the appropriate time to stick their neck out. Cause a Democrat president with a republican Senate and House won't go well, as has been demonstrated already.
If not now, when?
Dunno. But I'm sure with every do-or-die imminent must pass now bill that comes up leadership and rank and file think about this exact problem
If Democrats are unable to defend their 'no' votes by pointing out that, to quote:
“This bill will fund a dysfunctional system,” he said. “There are no standards that will force them to comply and be accountable to a basic level of humanitarian treatment and humanitarian needs.”
While the bill would significantly increase the funds available to shelter migrants, he said, “It doesn’t say that an individual should have at least a two-meter-square space; it doesn’t say that temperatures should be kept in a humane range; it doesn’t say that lights and noise should be off between 10 p.m. and 6 a.m. so we can respect the sleep of the families which is necessary for health.”
then what is the point? If there is never any opposing why assume it will happen? Where exactly is the line that won't be crossed? Why even count these guys as Democrats anyway?
+5
Options
MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
Propublica is an investigative journalism nonprofit.
After abolishing ICE, fire everyone in the Border Patrol and blacklist them. If they're not active participants in America's current evil, they're enabling and assisting it.
+30
Options
JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
Also the whole assuming that these votes would seriously jeopardize re-election campaigns and result in a Republican house is seriously dumb and one of the biggest faults of the Democratic party. It's the whole "compromising before negotiations have even begun" bit again. They will get called "weak on immigration" anyway, and if a vote now kills them in 18 months they are pretty bad at campaigning.
If their constituencies are such that not putting kids in concentration camps indefinitely is not accepted, then frankly their constituency is irredeemable. I don't think that's true though.
Also the whole assuming that these votes would seriously jeopardize re-election campaigns and result in a Republican house is seriously dumb and one of the biggest faults of the Democratic party. It's the whole "compromising before negotiations have even begun" bit again. They will get called "weak on immigration" anyway, and if a vote now kills them in 18 months they are pretty bad at campaigning.
If their constituencies are such that not putting kids in concentration camps indefinitely is not accepted, then frankly their constituency is irredeemable. I don't think that's true though.
That's the concession they're apparently making. "Our constituencies are so fucked up, that children held indefinitely in concentration camps are not just accepted, but so supportive of it that voting against it in any way is actually a net vote loser, and 18 months isn't enough time to change that.". And that that sentiment is the majority sentiment in a majority of congressional districts.
If that's the case, then the country is irredeemable.
That's what these people are essentially saying. That not only is this who America is now, that it's how America will be going forward. That there's no point fighting this.
Notions of "yeah some of these people really suck shit but theyre with us when it counts" cease to hold when "it counts" doesnt extend to concentration camps.
Notions of "yeah some of these people really suck shit but theyre with us when it counts" cease to hold when "it counts" doesnt extend to concentration camps.
The joys of being the only one of two parties that is an actual big tent coalition with a lot of competing ideologies I suppose
Notions of "yeah some of these people really suck shit but theyre with us when it counts" cease to hold when "it counts" doesnt extend to concentration camps.
The joys of being the only one of two parties that is an actual big tent coalition with a lot of competing ideologies I suppose
The problem for me as someone who is opposed to concentration camps is it sure as hell seems my vote is taken for granted while they chase mythical moderates.
If not now when is how I feel with the dems. Its almost approaching how labour voters feel about Corbyn.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I just glanced through Porter's twitter for the last month and there's literally no mention of the issue at all. Stevens mentioned it as a crisis that we need massive oversight on in a three tweet series but otherwise no.
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian carp (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
enlightenedbum on
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I just glanced through Porter's twitter for the last month and there's literally no mention of the issue at all. Stevens mentioned it as a crisis that we need massive oversight on in a three tweet series but otherwise no.
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian crap (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
I mean this is kinda the other thing. Those reps don't gain anything from sticking their necks out and their constituents don't care. It's up to individual politicians on whether their read of their constituents is that this is an issue they care about. But the thing is, I doubt a majority of Americans care, as sad as that is. It's far away, happening to other people, etc. That's not to defend the atrocities or votes, but it kinda makes a lot of sense.
I just glanced through Porter's twitter for the last month and there's literally no mention of the issue at all. Stevens mentioned it as a crisis that we need massive oversight on in a three tweet series but otherwise no.
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian crap (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
I mean this is kinda the other thing. Those reps don't gain anything from sticking their necks out and their constituents don't care. It's up to individual politicians on whether their read of their constituents is that this is an issue they care about. But the thing is, I doubt a majority of Americans care, as sad as that is. It's far away, happening to other people, etc. That's not to defend the atrocities or votes, but it kinda makes a lot of sense.
The song is different but the music feels the same. I wonder what progressives in Germany thought as reports of concentrations camps were coming out.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I just glanced through Porter's twitter for the last month and there's literally no mention of the issue at all. Stevens mentioned it as a crisis that we need massive oversight on in a three tweet series but otherwise no.
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian crap (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
I mean this is kinda the other thing. Those reps don't gain anything from sticking their necks out and their constituents don't care. It's up to individual politicians on whether their read of their constituents is that this is an issue they care about. But the thing is, I doubt a majority of Americans care, as sad as that is. It's far away, happening to other people, etc. That's not to defend the atrocities or votes, but it kinda makes a lot of sense.
The song is different but the music feels the same. I wonder what progressives in Germany thought as reports of concentrations camps were coming out.
Probably similar. I think also the average voter doesn't pay a lot of attention to the news and is probably tired of being inundated with it all. I know I am.
I just glanced through Porter's twitter for the last month and there's literally no mention of the issue at all. Stevens mentioned it as a crisis that we need massive oversight on in a three tweet series but otherwise no.
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian crap (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
I mean this is kinda the other thing. Those reps don't gain anything from sticking their necks out and their constituents don't care. It's up to individual politicians on whether their read of their constituents is that this is an issue they care about. But the thing is, I doubt a majority of Americans care, as sad as that is. It's far away, happening to other people, etc. That's not to defend the atrocities or votes, but it kinda makes a lot of sense.
The song is different but the music feels the same. I wonder what progressives in Germany thought as reports of concentrations camps were coming out.
They were sent first, so...
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
I just glanced through Porter's twitter for the last month and there's literally no mention of the issue at all. Stevens mentioned it as a crisis that we need massive oversight on in a three tweet series but otherwise no.
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian crap (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
I mean this is kinda the other thing. Those reps don't gain anything from sticking their necks out and their constituents don't care. It's up to individual politicians on whether their read of their constituents is that this is an issue they care about. But the thing is, I doubt a majority of Americans care, as sad as that is. It's far away, happening to other people, etc. That's not to defend the atrocities or votes, but it kinda makes a lot of sense.
The song is different but the music feels the same. I wonder what progressives in Germany thought as reports of concentrations camps were coming out.
Probably similar. I think also the average voter doesn't pay a lot of attention to the news and is probably tired of being inundated with it all. I know I am.
And for some of us its hard to watch a slow walked genocide done on asylum seekers while we're told "the politics just doesn't support being anti genocide the average voter rules here."
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Also, not to put too fine a point on it but the Democrats do in fact wield power at the moment, so it is somewhat silly to go "look we are doing a thing with no hope of effecting immediate change!" as a response. Maybe Pelosi could talk about what she will actually do to effect change with her majority instead of coming up with these dumb plans.
They have the power to oppose things and investigate things, and the former requires near unanimity to be effective.
It's better than nothing, but it's still easy to plow over them. And the power they have is fragile, because a lot of it stems from moderate and red state dems who have to worry about being tossed out in 18 months if their constituency is displeased. So every action has to be balanced as the effective use of what is effectively symbolic power NOW vs the real power they might wield LATER if the dems take the White House and/or Senate in 2020.
So even if a congressperson is enthusiastically for a given action, they have to consider whether they want to bank on symbolically doing something now if it might jeopardize being able to actually do the thing for realsies in a couple years.
I think the dems should be shrieking with rage about this every chance they get, but I also get that not every vote calculation is because they are feckless cowards who hate babies or whatever. I'm also somewhat leery of the logic of accelerationism that says making things more uncomfortable for detainees now will help us make things better in the future, because the only guarantee is that things are more uncomfortable now.
Control of just one of two houses is not super powerful, but it is a bit silly to dismiss it as just "better than nothing". They have the power to both propose laws and prevent bills from becoming law. And besides their investigative powers they also have the power of impeachment. Pretending their power is insignificant is ridiculous.
More importantly, if there are issues with wielding that power effectively then the focus should be on fixing that instead of proposing meaningless shit. If some peeps are worried about losing their seat in 18 fucking months, then efforts should be made towards ensuring that doesn't happen.
Even more importantly, if opposing concentration camps is seen as merely symbolic or less important than keeping one's seat, there is something incredibly wrong with your party.,
Control of the House and that's it is not enough to do anything serious about the issue here. Given McConnell's reaction to the House bill on emergency funding, it's doubtful anything gets past the Senate and there's no chance of getting anything past a Trump veto. The legislative power they have here is basically to cast symbolic votes on related legislation.
I assume investigating the situation would fall under some committee's purview, so they can probably work to get stonewalled on that front too.
I just glanced through Porter's twitter for the last month and there's literally no mention of the issue at all. Stevens mentioned it as a crisis that we need massive oversight on in a three tweet series but otherwise no.
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian crap (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
I mean this is kinda the other thing. Those reps don't gain anything from sticking their necks out and their constituents don't care. It's up to individual politicians on whether their read of their constituents is that this is an issue they care about. But the thing is, I doubt a majority of Americans care, as sad as that is. It's far away, happening to other people, etc. That's not to defend the atrocities or votes, but it kinda makes a lot of sense.
The song is different but the music feels the same. I wonder what progressives in Germany thought as reports of concentrations camps were coming out.
Probably similar. I think also the average voter doesn't pay a lot of attention to the news and is probably tired of being inundated with it all. I know I am.
I went to a Lights for Liberty rally. At a Japanese Buddhist temple. With speakers that included a Jewish/Spanish protestor from a Holocaust survivor family, a representative of a Native group that was hit by the Trail of Tears, and more.
I went to a Lights for Liberty rally. At a Japanese Buddhist temple. With speakers that included a Jewish/Spanish protestor from a Holocaust survivor family, a representative of a Native group that was hit by the Trail of Tears, and more.
America's history really is incredibly awful.
Awesomed for the rally. Not because our history is awful.
Which removes the short term optics problem but not the actual problem. And probably either enriches the criminal element in Guatemala or destabilizes that country or both.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
+6
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Which removes the short term optics problem but not the actual problem. And probably either enriches the criminal element in Guatemala or destabilizes that country or both.
Oh, I'm sure there will be absolutely no unintended consequences when it comes to aid, or fighting trafficking, or so on when this happens.
Think there might be a majority in Congress to change the US' motto to "If I cut you, I do not bleed"?
Sic transit gloria mundi.
0
Options
daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
The joke in the UK thread is “The real fight starts now.” It seems relevant given that the Democrats can’t even manage to pass symbolic amendments to be stripped out by the Senate.
And all those red district Democrats who are voting against these amendments are just going to keep doing that. It’s not like their districts will suddenly become more blue in the next year or so, nor is it likely that any electoral gains in 2020 will come from deep blue districts because we already have those seats.
So really, at what point does the House start trying to stop this?
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I just glanced through Porter's twitter for the last month and there's literally no mention of the issue at all. Stevens mentioned it as a crisis that we need massive oversight on in a three tweet series but otherwise no.
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian crap (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
I mean this is kinda the other thing. Those reps don't gain anything from sticking their necks out and their constituents don't care. It's up to individual politicians on whether their read of their constituents is that this is an issue they care about. But the thing is, I doubt a majority of Americans care, as sad as that is. It's far away, happening to other people, etc. That's not to defend the atrocities or votes, but it kinda makes a lot of sense.
The song is different but the music feels the same. I wonder what progressives in Germany thought as reports of concentrations camps were coming out.
Probably similar. I think also the average voter doesn't pay a lot of attention to the news and is probably tired of being inundated with it all. I know I am.
I just glanced through Porter's twitter for the last month and there's literally no mention of the issue at all. Stevens mentioned it as a crisis that we need massive oversight on in a three tweet series but otherwise no.
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian crap (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
I mean this is kinda the other thing. Those reps don't gain anything from sticking their necks out and their constituents don't care. It's up to individual politicians on whether their read of their constituents is that this is an issue they care about. But the thing is, I doubt a majority of Americans care, as sad as that is. It's far away, happening to other people, etc. That's not to defend the atrocities or votes, but it kinda makes a lot of sense.
The song is different but the music feels the same. I wonder what progressives in Germany thought as reports of concentrations camps were coming out.
Probably similar. I think also the average voter doesn't pay a lot of attention to the news and is probably tired of being inundated with it all. I know I am.
And for some of us its hard to watch a slow walked genocide done on asylum seekers while we're told "the politics just doesn't support being anti genocide the average voter rules here."
Yeah I'm not saying I don't feel that too
Mostly I feel incredibly nihilistic and hopeless about it
+2
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The joke in the UK thread is “The real fight starts now.” It seems relevant given that the Democrats can’t even manage to pass symbolic amendments to be stripped out by the Senate.
And all those red district Democrats who are voting against these amendments are just going to keep doing that. It’s not like their districts will suddenly become more blue in the next year or so, nor is it likely that any electoral gains in 2020 will come from deep blue districts because we already have those seats.
So really, at what point does the House start trying to stop this?
The House did pass a bill those amendments(only 4 democrats voted against, which is what Pelosi was castigating them for). And then the Senate stripped them out, and the House passed the stripped bill with no other fight. That's what people are justifiably angry about
Fencingsax on
+15
Options
daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
The joke in the UK thread is “The real fight starts now.” It seems relevant given that the Democrats can’t even manage to pass symbolic amendments to be stripped out by the Senate.
And all those red district Democrats who are voting against these amendments are just going to keep doing that. It’s not like their districts will suddenly become more blue in the next year or so, nor is it likely that any electoral gains in 2020 will come from deep blue districts because we already have those seats.
So really, at what point does the House start trying to stop this?
The House did pass a bill those amendments(only 4 democrats voted against, which is what Pelosi was castigating them for). And then the Senate stripped them out, and the House passed the stripped bill with no other fight. That's what people are justifiably angry about
And now we’re dealing with the amendments to the defense appropriations bill being shot down. In the House. It’s like they’re becoming even less effective. Getting rolled by the Senate and the ‘Problem Solvers Caucus’ is rage inducing. Not even managing to get to the point where you get rolled by them is even worse.
Remember how we fought and struggled but eventually we were able to shut down Gitmo? Me either. I’m not holding out high hopes for what we do about the freaking concentration camps in 2020 at the rate this is going.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
+2
Options
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I went to a Lights for Liberty rally. At a Japanese Buddhist temple. With speakers that included a Jewish/Spanish protestor from a Holocaust survivor family, a representative of a Native group that was hit by the Trail of Tears, and more.
America's history really is incredibly awful.
I was at the candle light vigil last night here in Madison, and we had a rabbi that detailed the times America turned away Jewish refugees, and talked intimately about their families holocaust story. We had a reverend/county judge that detailed the ways ICE is awful. We had age appropriate children reading the testimonials from the kids in the camps.
Also, this is a city with about 500,000 people within a 30 minute drive of the park the protest was in. There was only about 500 people at the protest. I feel like a .1% turn out for a protest against concentration camps maybe says a lot of bad things about America. The weather was great, the sunset amazing, and the park is accessible (the small parking lot for the park itself was full, but there is a parking garage a half block away) so that isn't what kept people from coming. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I fear most Americans truly dont care.
Let me just point out that Pelosi specifically welcomes comments about her role as Speaker from anyone in the country, not just her constituents in California. If you haven't contacted her yet maybe now would be a good time to do that. https://www.speaker.gov/contact/
Pelosi "reaching out" to evangelicals is kind of hilarious when the major story this morning is that Pence (evangelical number 1) toured one of the camps yesterday, had people shouting "No shower" at him, and then held a conference after to soft peddle and lie about the conditions he saw.
Speaking of protests against concentration camps, one of the ones in Colorado last night took a turn for the stupid:
Protesters upset with the federal immigration roundups that may occur this weekend in Denver gathered Friday night at the ICE facility in Aurora.
The majority of protesters on site were doing so in a peaceful and law-abiding manner. Another group stormed the barriers near the building and pulled down an American flag off the flag pole in front of the facility and replaced it with a Mexican flag.
Some group, from the one picture I found looking to be masked, came in and pulled down the american flag and replace it with a mexican flag, an upside down american flag or blue lives matter flag (not clear to me) defaced with "Abolish ICE" and some other random flag that had something with swearing or the like written on it that none of the papers I looked at would describe in detail.
I checked a few news sources after seeing this to make sure it was real because this it's so dumb it would be cut from a TV or movie script for being unrealistic.
The rest of the crowd of apparently about 2000 people were protesting peaceful of course.
I mean, people are going to do more radical things when it’s obvious there’s no peaceful political avenue to affect change on an issue as serious as concentration camps. I can’t really blame them.
I went to a Lights for Liberty rally. At a Japanese Buddhist temple. With speakers that included a Jewish/Spanish protestor from a Holocaust survivor family, a representative of a Native group that was hit by the Trail of Tears, and more.
America's history really is incredibly awful.
I was at the candle light vigil last night here in Madison, and we had a rabbi that detailed the times America turned away Jewish refugees, and talked intimately about their families holocaust story. We had a reverend/county judge that detailed the ways ICE is awful. We had age appropriate children reading the testimonials from the kids in the camps.
Also, this is a city with about 500,000 people within a 30 minute drive of the park the protest was in. There was only about 500 people at the protest. I feel like a .1% turn out for a protest against concentration camps maybe says a lot of bad things about America. The weather was great, the sunset amazing, and the park is accessible (the small parking lot for the park itself was full, but there is a parking garage a half block away) so that isn't what kept people from coming. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I fear most Americans truly dont care.
Nah it's probably that most folks have realized that protests aren't actually doing anything. We've had protests since the first day of this administration and they've done little to actually stop the horrors.
+11
Options
AstaerethIn the belly of the beastRegistered Userregular
I hope the Democrats who voted for funding are happy with this state of affairs
From where I sit this is the umpteenth time they were stung by the scorpion
The moral of the story is, stop giving the scorpion billions of dollars in funding which it will use to run concentration camps and not even thank you for it
Posts
They have the power to oppose things and investigate things, and the former requires near unanimity to be effective.
It's better than nothing, but it's still easy to plow over them. And the power they have is fragile, because a lot of it stems from moderate and red state dems who have to worry about being tossed out in 18 months if their constituency is displeased. So every action has to be balanced as the effective use of what is effectively symbolic power NOW vs the real power they might wield LATER if the dems take the White House and/or Senate in 2020.
So even if a congressperson is enthusiastically for a given action, they have to consider whether they want to bank on symbolically doing something now if it might jeopardize being able to actually do the thing for realsies in a couple years.
I think the dems should be shrieking with rage about this every chance they get, but I also get that not every vote calculation is because they are feckless cowards who hate babies or whatever. I'm also somewhat leery of the logic of accelerationism that says making things more uncomfortable for detainees now will help us make things better in the future, because the only guarantee is that things are more uncomfortable now.
Control of just one of two houses is not super powerful, but it is a bit silly to dismiss it as just "better than nothing". They have the power to both propose laws and prevent bills from becoming law. And besides their investigative powers they also have the power of impeachment. Pretending their power is insignificant is ridiculous.
More importantly, if there are issues with wielding that power effectively then the focus should be on fixing that instead of proposing meaningless shit. If some peeps are worried about losing their seat in 18 fucking months, then efforts should be made towards ensuring that doesn't happen.
Even more importantly, if opposing concentration camps is seen as merely symbolic or less important than keeping one's seat, there is something incredibly wrong with your party.,
If not now, when?
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Dunno. But I'm sure with every do-or-die imminent must pass now bill that comes up leadership and rank and file think about this exact problem
If Democrats are unable to defend their 'no' votes by pointing out that, to quote:
then what is the point? If there is never any opposing why assume it will happen? Where exactly is the line that won't be crossed? Why even count these guys as Democrats anyway?
Propublica is an investigative journalism nonprofit.
After abolishing ICE, fire everyone in the Border Patrol and blacklist them. If they're not active participants in America's current evil, they're enabling and assisting it.
If their constituencies are such that not putting kids in concentration camps indefinitely is not accepted, then frankly their constituency is irredeemable. I don't think that's true though.
That's the concession they're apparently making. "Our constituencies are so fucked up, that children held indefinitely in concentration camps are not just accepted, but so supportive of it that voting against it in any way is actually a net vote loser, and 18 months isn't enough time to change that.". And that that sentiment is the majority sentiment in a majority of congressional districts.
If that's the case, then the country is irredeemable.
That's what these people are essentially saying. That not only is this who America is now, that it's how America will be going forward. That there's no point fighting this.
I'm just so fucking tired.
The joys of being the only one of two parties that is an actual big tent coalition with a lot of competing ideologies I suppose
The problem for me as someone who is opposed to concentration camps is it sure as hell seems my vote is taken for granted while they chase mythical moderates.
If not now when is how I feel with the dems. Its almost approaching how labour voters feel about Corbyn.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Lots of ACA stuff, lots of Acosta stuff in the last week. For Porter's it's mostly banking (makes sense) and Stevens it's manufacturing (which is what she ran on) and Asian carp (HUGE deal in the Great Lakes). But to the swing Dems it doesn't seem to be a big deal. I'm about a mile from being a Stevens constituent at the moment, so I can't yell at her about this in a virtual town hall she's holding on Monday. If you are in MI-11, here's a link. Knowing that area, a lot of her older, well off constituents probably really don't care all that much.
I mean this is kinda the other thing. Those reps don't gain anything from sticking their necks out and their constituents don't care. It's up to individual politicians on whether their read of their constituents is that this is an issue they care about. But the thing is, I doubt a majority of Americans care, as sad as that is. It's far away, happening to other people, etc. That's not to defend the atrocities or votes, but it kinda makes a lot of sense.
The song is different but the music feels the same. I wonder what progressives in Germany thought as reports of concentrations camps were coming out.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Probably similar. I think also the average voter doesn't pay a lot of attention to the news and is probably tired of being inundated with it all. I know I am.
They were sent first, so...
And for some of us its hard to watch a slow walked genocide done on asylum seekers while we're told "the politics just doesn't support being anti genocide the average voter rules here."
pleasepaypreacher.net
Control of the House and that's it is not enough to do anything serious about the issue here. Given McConnell's reaction to the House bill on emergency funding, it's doubtful anything gets past the Senate and there's no chance of getting anything past a Trump veto. The legislative power they have here is basically to cast symbolic votes on related legislation.
I assume investigating the situation would fall under some committee's purview, so they can probably work to get stonewalled on that front too.
damn bro that sucks for you my sympathies
America's history really is incredibly awful.
Awesomed for the rally. Not because our history is awful.
Which removes the short term optics problem but not the actual problem. And probably either enriches the criminal element in Guatemala or destabilizes that country or both.
Oh, I'm sure there will be absolutely no unintended consequences when it comes to aid, or fighting trafficking, or so on when this happens.
And all those red district Democrats who are voting against these amendments are just going to keep doing that. It’s not like their districts will suddenly become more blue in the next year or so, nor is it likely that any electoral gains in 2020 will come from deep blue districts because we already have those seats.
So really, at what point does the House start trying to stop this?
Thanks bro I appreciate it
Yeah I'm not saying I don't feel that too
Mostly I feel incredibly nihilistic and hopeless about it
The House did pass a bill those amendments(only 4 democrats voted against, which is what Pelosi was castigating them for). And then the Senate stripped them out, and the House passed the stripped bill with no other fight. That's what people are justifiably angry about
And now we’re dealing with the amendments to the defense appropriations bill being shot down. In the House. It’s like they’re becoming even less effective. Getting rolled by the Senate and the ‘Problem Solvers Caucus’ is rage inducing. Not even managing to get to the point where you get rolled by them is even worse.
Remember how we fought and struggled but eventually we were able to shut down Gitmo? Me either. I’m not holding out high hopes for what we do about the freaking concentration camps in 2020 at the rate this is going.
I was at the candle light vigil last night here in Madison, and we had a rabbi that detailed the times America turned away Jewish refugees, and talked intimately about their families holocaust story. We had a reverend/county judge that detailed the ways ICE is awful. We had age appropriate children reading the testimonials from the kids in the camps.
Also, this is a city with about 500,000 people within a 30 minute drive of the park the protest was in. There was only about 500 people at the protest. I feel like a .1% turn out for a protest against concentration camps maybe says a lot of bad things about America. The weather was great, the sunset amazing, and the park is accessible (the small parking lot for the park itself was full, but there is a parking garage a half block away) so that isn't what kept people from coming. Maybe I'm overreacting, but I fear most Americans truly dont care.
Some group, from the one picture I found looking to be masked, came in and pulled down the american flag and replace it with a mexican flag, an upside down american flag or blue lives matter flag (not clear to me) defaced with "Abolish ICE" and some other random flag that had something with swearing or the like written on it that none of the papers I looked at would describe in detail.
I checked a few news sources after seeing this to make sure it was real because this it's so dumb it would be cut from a TV or movie script for being unrealistic.
The rest of the crowd of apparently about 2000 people were protesting peaceful of course.
Nah it's probably that most folks have realized that protests aren't actually doing anything. We've had protests since the first day of this administration and they've done little to actually stop the horrors.
Chris Hayes is an MSNBC host
I hope the Democrats who voted for funding are happy with this state of affairs
From where I sit this is the umpteenth time they were stung by the scorpion
The moral of the story is, stop giving the scorpion billions of dollars in funding which it will use to run concentration camps and not even thank you for it