BREAKING: President Trump is expected to announce he is backing down from his effort to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census, and will instead instruct the Commerce Department to get the data through other means, sources tell ABCPolitics
He's not even trying to hide it anymore. But this is more dangerous because now fucking profiling is entering the equation. Which means great, I have a Spanish name, so here comes the goddamn Commerce Department in some way in my life. Fuck everything!
So basically, like a lot of his tantrums and whims, this ends with not much.
This whole thing started with Trump ranting on twitter and it appears they've found a way to distract him with something else.
I assume some polling shows evangelicals are somewhat soft on the immigration issue or something. I'm not sure it'll work but can't hurt to try I guess.
BREAKING: President Trump is expected to announce he is backing down from his effort to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census, and will instead instruct the Commerce Department to get the data through other means, sources tell ABCPolitics
He's not even trying to hide it anymore. But this is more dangerous because now fucking profiling is entering the equation. Which means great, I have a Spanish name, so here comes the goddamn Commerce Department in some way in my life. Fuck everything!
So basically, like a lot of his tantrums and whims, this ends with not much.
This whole thing started with Trump ranting on twitter and it appears they've found a way to distract him with something else.
They used the phrase "backing down" though, which might set him off.
I'm still in the "I'll believe it isn't on there when I see the form" phase.
BREAKING: President Trump is expected to announce he is backing down from his effort to include a citizenship question on the 2020 census, and will instead instruct the Commerce Department to get the data through other means, sources tell ABCPolitics
He's not even trying to hide it anymore. But this is more dangerous because now fucking profiling is entering the equation. Which means great, I have a Spanish name, so here comes the goddamn Commerce Department in some way in my life. Fuck everything!
So basically, like a lot of his tantrums and whims, this ends with not much.
This whole thing started with Trump ranting on twitter and it appears they've found a way to distract him with something else.
They used the phrase "backing down" though, which might set him off.
I'm still in the "I'll believe it isn't on there when I see the form" phase.
Yeah, the very reaction to this news might set him off again and put us back at "Fuck the courts RARRR!" time.
Hoping that evangicals who Trump already doesn't listen to, can get him to change on murdering asylum seekers is insane.
Thinking evangelicals give a shit what Christ said is insane.
Hey.
Some of us do.
Not enough to matter, though.
A Martin Luther level of introspection from Trump supporting evangelicals would be an appreciated if belated and farfetched result from our country's self inflicted entropy.
Black lives matter.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
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There's going to be legal action filed as soon as the executive order is signed to stop it. I dunno if they're going for the theater of it knowing it won't hold up, or if Trump is actually dumb and thinks executive orders are unilateral power with zero boundaries whatsoever.
I think they're determined and/or desperate to stop an accurate census, and more representation of brown people, by any means/costs. This is a literal once-in-a-decade opportunity for them, at a demographic crisis point for the party.
They're not going to back down, and we shouldn't.
I’m honestly surprised they care that much given the SC said they’re quite openly allowed to draw districts for partisan gain.
Really the only benefit beyond that is EC votes, but I would imagine they want Texas to have more of them...
What am I missing?
More ec votes mean more representatives means its easier to gerrymander
That's not how any of that works.
That is exactly how that works. If liberal states lose representatives then conservative states gain. More EC because more representatives means that your gerrymander is more effective because you have more seats to work with
But none of those things are related. The gerrymander is done in the state legislatures, which has nothing to do with Congress of the Electoral College. More representation for conservative states means more votes in the electoral college, not the other way around.
If the census undercounts liberal states then it overcounts conservative states which means that conservative states gerrymanders are more effective in securing a house and presidential majority...
I do not understand what problem youre having with this statement
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
These raids are going to kill people and shutter businesses and destroy communities. I was going to say "probably going to..." right there, but I think that's what these raids are intended to do, so.
I wonder what we'll call the American kristallnacht...
Maybe don't co opt Kristallnacht for your edgy forum post, eh? We get it, you're super edgy, you're on the edge, it's crazy. We're all super impressed, now grow up please.
Say if we have two equal sized states in the US - one majority Dem and one majority Pub. Census then lowers the Dem state population, they lose a Rep.
There's now a greater proportion of potential reps that come from the states that are able to guarantee that most of them will be Republican via gerrymandering.
...for documents and testimony from current and former Administration officials relating to the following:
1. The “Zero Tolerance” policy and other family separation policies
and practices;
2. Detention or short-term custody of children and/or families; and
3. Discussions about or offers of presidential pardons to Department
of Homeland Security officials or employees.
There's also quite a list of names in the document, but I'm not sure if they're linked to this or the follow up to the Mueller report.
1. Rick A. Dearborn
2. Michael T. Flynn
3. Joseph “Jody” H. Hunt
4. Jared C. Kushner
5. John F. Kelly
6. Corey R. Lewandowski
7. Robert R. Porter
8. Rod J. Rosenstein
9. Jefferson B. Sessions
10. Keith M. Davidson
11. Dylan Howard
12. David J. Pecker
While perhaps over the top, the Kristallnacht reference has me pondering.
We know the camps are shitholes. People dying, poor living conditions, overly cramped.
If ICE is going to be wandering the city scooping people up, is this not an existing and advertised situation where people may be more prone to resisting or even fighting back, reasonably concerned about their safety and family's safety.
At which point ICE/Trump has all these cases to point at, "look at all these violent immigrants, who assaulted and maybe even killed a few hard working ICE officers". (for it to be entirely on brand, it'd probably be a couple of officers who got rear ended at a drive through or one who had a heart attack from the massive immigrant arresting boner he was sporting, but that's a side detail of no concern to their target audience)
To be clear, I'm not saying 'oh, it's totally the Kristallnacht', but am still looking at a situation where the administration may well be (intentionally or unintentionally) setting up a situation where people are rightfully on edge, scared, and will perhaps lash out if they feel cornered, at which point Fox news gives it 24/7 coverage and Sinclair Broadcasting Group makes sure to get it in as many households as possible.
Basically, how Stephen Miller will be spinning the results.
Forar on
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
Dems in the Senate are now pushing a bill to make family separation illegal and what not. Schumer's a co-sponsor, Merkeley's behind it, every Dem running for president in the Senate is a co-sponsor. Tactics here are baffling.
Adam Jentleson (Reid deputy Chief of Staff) has been proposing debt ceiling shenanigans to force something like this through which eeeek
Hey, Chuck-lefuck Schumer and Congress Dems who voted for this shit:
The horse is already out of the pasture and over the damned horizon with this. If you were serious about stopping this, you could have not rolled over for the Republicans and made them own funding ICE, and done what you were elected to do- slow or stop this stuff. And now you want to play with the debt ceiling? Do you want four more years of a racist orange manbaby as president? Because doing shit like this is what leads to it. Do you not remember how badly it reflected on the Manbaby when he did it?
You caved. And we will remember this when you get primaried. Now they have Dems on record wanting to play with the debt ceiling and you know Fox will fucking run with this shit day and night.
Do your goddamn jobs and fucking slow this shit and actually do something that will matter in the long run instead of just holding up a piece of paper we all know the turtle-in-charge will never, ever let come to the floor just so you can point and say "Look, we totally gave them the money, but we're still resisting! Honest! Look at this act with a clever name!" Why did you not do this when the funding bill was on the damned fucking floor, you cowards? Why did you not do your jobs and resist this with tooth and nail- and why did you fucking trust Mike Pence, of all people- I mean, hell, if he told me water was wet, snow is cold, and the sky is blue, I'd automatically believe the opposite until I got first-hand proof.
There are no words for how badly you have let us all down with this. With the upcoming raids, I hope you understand that every single person that gets taken to a camp? You share in the blame, now. You gave them money to keep doing it, congratulations, everyone who voted to give them money is now complicit in it. Their incarceration and misery rests on your shoulders for rolling over.
The voters will remember.
If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and vent somewhere- preferably in a game with lots of explosions.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
These raids are going to kill people and shutter businesses and destroy communities. I was going to say "probably going to..." right there, but I think that's what these raids are intended to do, so.
I wonder what we'll call the American kristallnacht...
Maybe don't co opt Kristallnacht for your edgy forum post, eh? We get it, you're super edgy, you're on the edge, it's crazy. We're all super impressed, now grow up please.
Oh yeah that's what this is about, proving how edgy I am. Not the fact that me and my husband are directly next in fucking line for this same treatment.
With Gestapo, excuse me, ICE raids soon to begin, it's not even a Nazi metaphor anymore. It's straight up the real deal. Full on abducting people and putting them into concentration camps.
Edit: Not too long, and that unchecked, unopposed power to do whatever they want to anyone is going to make using it on more and more groups very enticing.
Whatever term eventually gets written down in history books is irrelevant.
These kids of raids are unconscionable and I hope that people can stay safe.
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I ZimbraWorst song, played on ugliest guitarRegistered Userregular
I assume some polling shows evangelicals are somewhat soft on the immigration issue or something. I'm not sure it'll work but can't hurt to try I guess.
Wow, Chuck, you really think we’re that stupid don’t you?
You really think we’re gonna forget that your laziness and incompetence just gave ICE billions of dollars and we’re gonna forgive that fact just because you toss a pretty piece of paper that anyone rubbing two braincells together knows McConnell will never, ever allow to see the light of the Senate floor?
Fuck off man!
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Fair enough - though those are in addition to the 3 points above. I think point 3 is going to be the more interesting bit if anything comes out about it - I would definitely be curious to see if ICE is operating under the assumption that they have "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards waiting in the wings in the form of Presidential Pardons.
One branch of Government planning to use the pardon power to defy the will of both Legislative and Judiciary seems like it would be the be all and end all of Impeachment justifications. And with various members involved in private prisons and the running of the camps, even if the ICE individuals get pardoned - isn't there 'profits of a crime' issues that might crop up if it turns out to be premeditated and known to be illegal?
Also, you guys should definitely be watching BBC's "Years and Years". It's half way through airing in the US as of this week, so you're at the bit where it's literally this. It's a BBC thing that's somehow ended up on HBO.
I don’t think anyone is trying to co-opt Krystalnacht to be edgy
I think it’s being used because there are very striking parallels between the way European and specifically Nazi antisemetism characterized and treated Jewish people and how the American Conservative movement has treated Latin American people.
There was a Hannah Arendt passage I read recently and then had to put down because of being overwhelmed by how similar the lead up with the Nazis and anti-semetism seemed compared to our current environment
(Most of those agencies probably have restrictions preventing them from sharing that data).
The stupidest part is..they could have put the citizenship question on. All they needed was a fig leaf. But like DACA they couldn't be bothered to generate one, so we get this.
The raids, which will be conducted by Immigration and Customs Enforcement over multiple days, will include “collateral” deportations, according to the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the preliminary stage of the operation. In those deportations, the authorities might detain immigrants who happened to be on the scene, even though they were not targets of the raids.
"We're coming to get you, none of you are safe, rules be damned".
(Most of those agencies probably have restrictions preventing them from sharing that data).
The stupidest part is..they could have put the citizenship question on. All they needed was a fig leaf. But like DACA they couldn't be bothered to generate one, so we get this.
It's more that they don't have time anymore. The case took so long that we are now past the deadline for when the census is supposed to be finalized. That's why Trump was talking about delaying it just like a week ago.
That’s a rather broad Royal Decree being issued right there.
Was listening to an npr report, and apparently this is what government departments have already been doing for months now. Back when census officials told commerce secretary Wilbur Ross that there were better ways to determine the number of citizens than a census question, like using social security data and such, Ross went ahead and requested all that info.
Trump's order is pretty much just him trying to save face in a defeat.
edit: Found an actual link to the story:
In backing down from the legal fight, Trump appears to be doing what the Census Bureau encouraged over a year ago.
Before Ross decided to add a citizenship question to the 2020 census, the Census Bureau's acting director, Ron Jarmin, and other officials had tried to convince him to use existing government records about U.S. citizens and noncitizens.
Some of the steps Trump outlined are already underway. The Social Security Administration and Department of Homeland Security, at Ross's direction, had already entered into agreements with the Census Bureau to provide the bureau with information on noncitizens.
Just appears to be a reminder for evangelical groups that they should be ashamed of themselves. I can't imagine she thinks it would go further than that.
(I can, but..)
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VariableMouth CongressStroke Me Lady FameRegistered Userregular
I'm pretty sure the way they're gonna get data on illegal immigrants is the same way they would have under any president. it's not that they don't try, it's that we want it to be accurate and if you put it on the census it won't be accurate.
apologies if I'm mistaken. but his demands are just demanding business as usual because he didnt' get what he wanted -I think-
And then that waste of carbon Barr said the census could be construed to only use citizens for apportionment.
Which is straight up bullshit.
The thing is without the citizenship question how would they know if someone is a citizen or not. So barr just gave the game away "we wanted it on there to exclude non citizens despite that not being what the census is for"
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
I'm pretty sure the way they're gonna get data on illegal immigrants is the same way they would have under any president. it's not that they don't try, it's that we want it to be accurate and if you put it on the census it won't be accurate.
apologies if I'm mistaken. but his demands are just demanding business as usual because he didnt' get what he wanted -I think-
If you take into account the past words and actions of Trump and his administration, then those words are just a pretence to their real goal: disenfranchising non-republicans of their vote, by hook or and by crook.
The raids, which will be conducted by Immigration and Customs Enforcement over multiple days, will include “collateral” deportations, according to the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the preliminary stage of the operation. In those deportations, the authorities might detain immigrants who happened to be on the scene, even though they were not targets of the raids.
"We're coming to get you, none of you are safe, rules be damned".
They've been wrongly holding citizens, natural born or otherwise, for deportation over the last couple of years. I take this statement to mean that they are going to continue doing so as part of the strategy (of being racist).
So, again, Spanish name / heritage could mean deportation.
And then that waste of carbon Barr said the census could be construed to only use citizens for apportionment.
Which is straight up bullshit.
The thing is without the citizenship question how would they know if someone is a citizen or not. So barr just gave the game away "we wanted it on there to exclude non citizens despite that not being what the census is for"
I think what Barr is saying is that they plan to use citizenship data they're taking from other government sources in order to apportion members of Congress by number of citizens per state rather than the number of residents.
Which is flatly illegal.
The 14th Amendment states:
Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed.
It goes by residents, not citizens, and you can't argue the framers didn't know the difference, since, as you may know, the question of citizenship comes up quite a bit in the 14th Amendment.
I work with a wonderfully diverse bunch of people and a fairly diverse social media circle, so I made sure to warn both that ICE is coming. Knowledge can save lives, so I advise we make sure the forums aren't the only place we mention this.
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ElJeffeNot actually a mod.Roaming the streets, waving his gun around.Moderator, ClubPAmod
Just appears to be a reminder for evangelical groups that they should be ashamed of themselves. I can't imagine she thinks it would go further than that.
(I can, but..)
25% of evangelicals is a lot of people, and not all of them are Democrats. (Though let's be honest, probably most of them are.) So there are potentially a bunch of Republicans who agree with Dems on this point, and that means they're flippable, or - more likely - depressable come next election.
It's a long shot, but everything the dems can plausibly try to do with the power they have is a long shot, and people get pissed at them when they DON'T try to do anything, soooooo.
I think this is pretty smart in terms of cost-benefit analysis.
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So basically, like a lot of his tantrums and whims, this ends with not much.
This whole thing started with Trump ranting on twitter and it appears they've found a way to distract him with something else.
I assume some polling shows evangelicals are somewhat soft on the immigration issue or something. I'm not sure it'll work but can't hurt to try I guess.
They used the phrase "backing down" though, which might set him off.
I'm still in the "I'll believe it isn't on there when I see the form" phase.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
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Yeah, the very reaction to this news might set him off again and put us back at "Fuck the courts RARRR!" time.
Hey.
Some of us do.
Not enough to matter, though.
A Martin Luther level of introspection from Trump supporting evangelicals would be an appreciated if belated and farfetched result from our country's self inflicted entropy.
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
If the census undercounts liberal states then it overcounts conservative states which means that conservative states gerrymanders are more effective in securing a house and presidential majority...
I do not understand what problem youre having with this statement
Maybe don't co opt Kristallnacht for your edgy forum post, eh? We get it, you're super edgy, you're on the edge, it's crazy. We're all super impressed, now grow up please.
More seats lets you gerrymander harder.
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Say if we have two equal sized states in the US - one majority Dem and one majority Pub. Census then lowers the Dem state population, they lose a Rep.
There's now a greater proportion of potential reps that come from the states that are able to guarantee that most of them will be Republican via gerrymandering.
There's also quite a list of names in the document, but I'm not sure if they're linked to this or the follow up to the Mueller report.
2. Michael T. Flynn
3. Joseph “Jody” H. Hunt
4. Jared C. Kushner
5. John F. Kelly
6. Corey R. Lewandowski
7. Robert R. Porter
8. Rod J. Rosenstein
9. Jefferson B. Sessions
10. Keith M. Davidson
11. Dylan Howard
12. David J. Pecker
We know the camps are shitholes. People dying, poor living conditions, overly cramped.
If ICE is going to be wandering the city scooping people up, is this not an existing and advertised situation where people may be more prone to resisting or even fighting back, reasonably concerned about their safety and family's safety.
At which point ICE/Trump has all these cases to point at, "look at all these violent immigrants, who assaulted and maybe even killed a few hard working ICE officers". (for it to be entirely on brand, it'd probably be a couple of officers who got rear ended at a drive through or one who had a heart attack from the massive immigrant arresting boner he was sporting, but that's a side detail of no concern to their target audience)
To be clear, I'm not saying 'oh, it's totally the Kristallnacht', but am still looking at a situation where the administration may well be (intentionally or unintentionally) setting up a situation where people are rightfully on edge, scared, and will perhaps lash out if they feel cornered, at which point Fox news gives it 24/7 coverage and Sinclair Broadcasting Group makes sure to get it in as many households as possible.
Basically, how Stephen Miller will be spinning the results.
Hey, Chuck-lefuck Schumer and Congress Dems who voted for this shit:
The horse is already out of the pasture and over the damned horizon with this. If you were serious about stopping this, you could have not rolled over for the Republicans and made them own funding ICE, and done what you were elected to do- slow or stop this stuff. And now you want to play with the debt ceiling? Do you want four more years of a racist orange manbaby as president? Because doing shit like this is what leads to it. Do you not remember how badly it reflected on the Manbaby when he did it?
You caved. And we will remember this when you get primaried. Now they have Dems on record wanting to play with the debt ceiling and you know Fox will fucking run with this shit day and night.
Do your goddamn jobs and fucking slow this shit and actually do something that will matter in the long run instead of just holding up a piece of paper we all know the turtle-in-charge will never, ever let come to the floor just so you can point and say "Look, we totally gave them the money, but we're still resisting! Honest! Look at this act with a clever name!" Why did you not do this when the funding bill was on the damned fucking floor, you cowards? Why did you not do your jobs and resist this with tooth and nail- and why did you fucking trust Mike Pence, of all people- I mean, hell, if he told me water was wet, snow is cold, and the sky is blue, I'd automatically believe the opposite until I got first-hand proof.
There are no words for how badly you have let us all down with this. With the upcoming raids, I hope you understand that every single person that gets taken to a camp? You share in the blame, now. You gave them money to keep doing it, congratulations, everyone who voted to give them money is now complicit in it. Their incarceration and misery rests on your shoulders for rolling over.
The voters will remember.
If you'll excuse me, I'm going to go and vent somewhere- preferably in a game with lots of explosions.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
Oh yeah that's what this is about, proving how edgy I am. Not the fact that me and my husband are directly next in fucking line for this same treatment.
Edit: Not too long, and that unchecked, unopposed power to do whatever they want to anyone is going to make using it on more and more groups very enticing.
Whatever term eventually gets written down in history books is irrelevant.
These kids of raids are unconscionable and I hope that people can stay safe.
You assume dead wrong, then.
Pew is a respected research/polling firm.
This poll was released just a couple of days before Pelosi said that.
You really think we’re gonna forget that your laziness and incompetence just gave ICE billions of dollars and we’re gonna forgive that fact just because you toss a pretty piece of paper that anyone rubbing two braincells together knows McConnell will never, ever allow to see the light of the Senate floor?
Fuck off man!
Battlenet ID: MildC#11186 - If I'm in the game, send me an invite at anytime and I'll play.
Fair enough - though those are in addition to the 3 points above. I think point 3 is going to be the more interesting bit if anything comes out about it - I would definitely be curious to see if ICE is operating under the assumption that they have "Get Out Of Jail Free" cards waiting in the wings in the form of Presidential Pardons.
One branch of Government planning to use the pardon power to defy the will of both Legislative and Judiciary seems like it would be the be all and end all of Impeachment justifications. And with various members involved in private prisons and the running of the camps, even if the ICE individuals get pardoned - isn't there 'profits of a crime' issues that might crop up if it turns out to be premeditated and known to be illegal?
Also, you guys should definitely be watching BBC's "Years and Years". It's half way through airing in the US as of this week, so you're at the bit where it's literally this. It's a BBC thing that's somehow ended up on HBO.
I think it’s being used because there are very striking parallels between the way European and specifically Nazi antisemetism characterized and treated Jewish people and how the American Conservative movement has treated Latin American people.
There was a Hannah Arendt passage I read recently and then had to put down because of being overwhelmed by how similar the lead up with the Nazis and anti-semetism seemed compared to our current environment
That’s a rather broad Royal Decree being issued right there.
twitch.tv/Taramoor
@TaramoorPlays
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(Most of those agencies probably have restrictions preventing them from sharing that data).
The stupidest part is..they could have put the citizenship question on. All they needed was a fig leaf. But like DACA they couldn't be bothered to generate one, so we get this.
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/07/11/us/politics/ice-families-deport.amp.html
"We're coming to get you, none of you are safe, rules be damned".
pleasepaypreacher.net
It's more that they don't have time anymore. The case took so long that we are now past the deadline for when the census is supposed to be finalized. That's why Trump was talking about delaying it just like a week ago.
Was listening to an npr report, and apparently this is what government departments have already been doing for months now. Back when census officials told commerce secretary Wilbur Ross that there were better ways to determine the number of citizens than a census question, like using social security data and such, Ross went ahead and requested all that info.
Trump's order is pretty much just him trying to save face in a defeat.
edit: Found an actual link to the story:
Link: https://www.npr.org/2019/07/11/739858115/trump-expected-to-renew-push-for-census-citizenship-question-with-executive-acti
Which is straight up bullshit.
Just appears to be a reminder for evangelical groups that they should be ashamed of themselves. I can't imagine she thinks it would go further than that.
(I can, but..)
apologies if I'm mistaken. but his demands are just demanding business as usual because he didnt' get what he wanted -I think-
The thing is without the citizenship question how would they know if someone is a citizen or not. So barr just gave the game away "we wanted it on there to exclude non citizens despite that not being what the census is for"
pleasepaypreacher.net
If you take into account the past words and actions of Trump and his administration, then those words are just a pretence to their real goal: disenfranchising non-republicans of their vote, by hook or and by crook.
Remember when we asked you about CBP doing ID checks on passengers deplaning from a domestic flight at JFK?
Here’s the result. A great settlement for our clients. CBP acknowledges that you have rights against a detention for ID checks.
You have the right to walk on by.
CBP had been trying to search domestic flights. The ACLU won the case against it.
So, again, Spanish name / heritage could mean deportation.
I think what Barr is saying is that they plan to use citizenship data they're taking from other government sources in order to apportion members of Congress by number of citizens per state rather than the number of residents.
Which is flatly illegal.
The 14th Amendment states:
It goes by residents, not citizens, and you can't argue the framers didn't know the difference, since, as you may know, the question of citizenship comes up quite a bit in the 14th Amendment.
25% of evangelicals is a lot of people, and not all of them are Democrats. (Though let's be honest, probably most of them are.) So there are potentially a bunch of Republicans who agree with Dems on this point, and that means they're flippable, or - more likely - depressable come next election.
It's a long shot, but everything the dems can plausibly try to do with the power they have is a long shot, and people get pissed at them when they DON'T try to do anything, soooooo.
I think this is pretty smart in terms of cost-benefit analysis.