Iron Man has done more to get women interested in space marines than female space marines ever would, and insisting that the "flagship faction" must include women serves only to antagonize the gentlemen who are deeply invested in the fiction and make a spectacle of how great an "ally" you are.
How does it antagonize men? Like, if you are THAT deeply invested in the lore then maybe you need a reality check. There is a setting where gender matters deeply as part of the lore, but Warhammer just ain't it.
Sisters of Battle were created largely in response to demand for female Space Marines without...actually making female Space Marines. That's why nobody is asking for that, just like how nobody is asking for female Necron because the entire faction is robot skeletons void of personality. Please put a bit more thought into your gotcha questions.
And if representation doesn't matter, then why are men so passionately defending theirs
Iron Man has done more to get women interested in space marines than female space marines ever would, and insisting that the "flagship faction" must include women serves only to antagonize the gentlemen who are deeply invested in the fiction and make a spectacle of how great an "ally" you are.
How does it antagonize men? Like, if you are THAT deeply invested in the lore then maybe you need a reality check. There is a setting where gender matters deeply as part of the lore, but Warhammer just ain't it.
Sisters of Battle were created largely in response to demand for female Space Marines without...actually making female Space Marines. That's why nobody is asking for that, just like how nobody is asking for female Necron because the entire faction is robot skeletons void of personality. Please put a bit more thought into your gotcha questions.
And if representation doesn't matter, then why are men so passionately defending theirs
The Sisters aren’t even an all-ladies faction, they have male units in their codex.
Kita, can you at least keep it relevant to the topic? This isn't about changing the rules.
Even if it was people generally tweak the rules for new players. All the guides I've read for DMing tells you about using kid gloves for new players and stretching rules to maintain fun because they assume you aren't an asshole.
The Sisters aren’t even an all-ladies faction, they have male units in their codex.
If you want to get technical, those aren't Sisters of Battle units, they are Adeptus Ministorum units.
The Sisters of Battle codex just sort of became a catch all for random spacechurch models, because no one wants to have to dig out their old Imperium 2 index whenever they want to run a Preacher. There are no males in the actual Sisters of Battle faction.
The Sisters aren’t even an all-ladies faction, they have male units in their codex.
If you want to get technical, those aren't Sisters of Battle units, they are Adeptus Ministorum units.
The Sisters of Battle codex just sort of became a catch all for random spacechurch models, because no one wants to have to dig out their old Imperium 2 index whenever they want to run a Preacher. There are no males in the actual Sisters of Battle faction.
I get what you mean. I’m just pointing out that even with our female faction, we end up having male units tacked on. Luckily you don’t really need to use them, a “pure” Sisters list can easily ignore them.
It’s just kind of a bummer that there is literally only one codex that has more female models than male ones. Every other codex is either male only, mixed favouring male models, or technically gender-neutral but still male-coded in their visual design(orks). I suppose there’s Necrons, who just look like skeletons and are the souls of an entire civilization jammed into robot bodies that could be any gender. Though even then, all their main named characters are dudes.
Iron Man has done more to get women interested in space marines than female space marines ever would, and insisting that the "flagship faction" must include women serves only to antagonize the gentlemen who are deeply invested in the fiction and make a spectacle of how great an "ally" you are.
How does it antagonize men? Like, if you are THAT deeply invested in the lore then maybe you need a reality check.
I forget their name, but whoever the of group 'men' getting angry over everything were who came out of Gamersgate, and tried so hard to invent a Comicsgate, recently tried to make a Tabletopgaminggate, trying to gain traction in GW circles specifically with how the big bad SJWs are coming to take your games, and look at this example of the book about Cawl's past, where robot people, no longer remotely human and gestalt intelligences use... *gasp* non standard gender pronouns! Black Library is going to tank and the fiction line is ruined!
I almost would've felt bad for the guy who got kicked around Dakkadakka when he tried to pull it over there, if it wasn't just so pathetic.
How many of you guys that are clamoring for more representation and/or female space marines have been making your desire known to GW by purchasing female models lately?
You don't need to answer this question in the thread, it's just something I want you to think about.
I have bought all the singular one off female models, as well as now having a sizeable SoB force (I'm just waiting for the last bits of the range to be released). My 7 year old daughter goes into our "library" on a regular basis and has a proper look at the SoB range. I'm hoping sometime in the near future to have a few games with her.
I always go back to the story that when I went into my local GW with my daughter for the first time, she was really excited to see where her daddy got all his toy soldiers and the disappointment that rose from not being able to see many girl models.
In all the surveys I have requested when relevant for more female models (the Eldar factions for instance do a reasonably good job).
Also, I've been collecting since the end of first edition and playing off and on since 2nd edition.
Female Stormcast have been done well, I don't see why Primaris Marines wouldn't work either, and it would be nice to see if / when some ranges get updated (eg:Imperial Guard) we see more mixed representation.
I’ve told this story a few times on here, but I’ll repeat it again, because apparently “representation doesn’t matter” and we’re doing anecdotes.
I am a white guy. My wife and her family are black.
I took my nephew to see Civil War and after the movie I asked him what part he liked the best.
“Black panther,” he said.
“Why?” I asked.
“Because he’s like me.”
On a similar vein a friend of mine asked me to run DND for her birthday, her first time doing so. She specifically said to me “I always assumed it was just for guys, but I’ve been watching critical role and it looks amazing.” The fact that that is incredibly popular series has a mixed gender cast made her realise that it was something open to her.
That group I’m running has nine players (oh god help me) and one of them is a guy. One.
Even ignoring “wholeness” or “SJW crap” or any kind of bullshit gatekeeping, it’s just straight up good business sense. You want to make your game, your buisness, as open to everybody as possible. Why limit your customer base? And when you’re selling essentially art pieces with a game tacked on, well, then why not be more inclusive?
To answer the “do I put me money where my mouth is” question, I do. I’ve bought Tau, I’ve bought Eldar, I’m in the process of buying Sisters Of Battle, all factions that have mixed gender forces. (Yes, I know that the men in SoB are Ministorum, but they’re basically mandatory in the good SoB lists. Hell you could very easily build a list that’s some basic sisters squads and then all Arco-Flagellants and penetience engines. Both iconic units for them, both noticeably dudes.)
And let’s be super honest with ourselves. The guys that complain the loudest, who bitch and moan and throw up six page essays about the lore online, those guys, they’re still going to buy it anyway.
(See everything 9th age player I know still buying and using GW models to build their armies. Good job guys, you sure showed them.)
While I'm generally of no objection towards changing stuff for better inclusion maybe 40k isn't where to look if you want to see yourself represented? There aren't any good guys. Do we generally think bad guys should be more inclusive in their representation? The Astartes are all dudes because the Imperium is a shitty fascist state obsessed with machoism. Would adding female fascist ubermensch to their legions really improve anything?
I mean if they do I'm not going to complain, I understand that its important to people as a general topic and it doesn't effect me in the slightest. I just kind of wonder.
None of it mattered, in the very same peer group, the same high school RPG club, the girls actively playing VtM considered D&D some nerdy nonsense and had zero interest in playing it.
I read through the first post and it seemed very positive regarding the effort involved. Did I miss something there? Is there any data on the long-term effects or player statistics? I didn’t want to scroll through 35 pages.
Likewise I read up to the methodology of the article KiTA linked:
First, I used a general survey, administered online, to locate potential interviewees. The survey allowed me to sample from marginalized identity categories I use as the starting point for this study without making it necessary for me to signal that these are identities were of interest. A sample of interviewees who identified as non-heterosexual, non-male, and/or not solely White/Anglo (i.e. those that fell outside the heterosexual, White male gamer stereotype prominent in the U.S.), were then selected from the completed surveys. Of the fifty-two total people who fit into one or more of the selection criteria, 38 were contacted and 27 of those agreed to be interviewed. I also interviewed two heterosexual, white male partners of two of those interviewees, and the non-gaming, queer white female partner of one other participant.
30 interviews seems to me a pretty limited sample size to draw conclusions from. The rest of Shaw’s methods seem pretty suspect too: he lets the interviewees define their own terms and doesn’t attempt to baseline their experiences. I don’t do research so please correct me if I’m wrong but this doesn’t seem like anything one could draw conclusions from.
While I'm generally of no objection towards changing stuff for better inclusion maybe 40k isn't where to look if you want to see yourself represented? There aren't any good guys. Do we generally think bad guys should be more inclusive in their representation? The Astartes are all dudes because the Imperium is a shitty fascist state obsessed with machoism. Would adding female fascist ubermensch to their legions really improve anything?
I mean if they do I'm not going to complain, I understand that its important to people as a general topic and it doesn't effect me in the slightest. I just kind of wonder.
I thought Marines were all male, because when designing the first plastic kit, the designers had to make a decision to make them all male or all female (I'm not sure where I heard this from to be granted).
So the lore stems from model design limitations; just like the Horus Heresy stems from that Titan box, where all the Titans looked the same and so they came up with a reason for a civil war.
While I'm generally of no objection towards changing stuff for better inclusion maybe 40k isn't where to look if you want to see yourself represented? There aren't any good guys. Do we generally think bad guys should be more inclusive in their representation? The Astartes are all dudes because the Imperium is a shitty fascist state obsessed with machoism. Would adding female fascist ubermensch to their legions really improve anything?
I mean if they do I'm not going to complain, I understand that its important to people as a general topic and it doesn't effect me in the slightest. I just kind of wonder.
The facist angle of 40k is in a weird place. Where it’s leveraged as a kind of fun fantasy facism. I still think representation matters, but there is definitely a weird undertone to the imperium.
We see the same kind of thing with Star Wars. The Empire and the First Order are facists, but you can go out and buy a stormtrooper helmet mug and some first order pyjamas.
I think maybe it’s the fact that it’s fun to be the bad guys overrides the philosophical issues of it?
When I played Flames Of War I had a German force. I couldn’t be any further from a nazi, but it was fun to be able to run panzers and try blitzkrieg tactics.
I would love someone way more qualified from me to run a study into this actually. Why do we feel this pull towards the bad guys even when what they’ve done is horrific? (Everyone loves Dath Vader and he’s done multiple genocides at this point.)
Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
Unfortunately sociological studies are extremely difficult to quantify since all the variables are analogue and also potentially relevant, therefore difficult to eliminate. Plus you don’t (can’t) have a control group.
That said, does the author ever state why only 38 of 52 respondents were even contacted? Being unclear on things like that can lead to suspicions of *ahem* pre-selection criteria which is never a good thing in any study, never mind one where a quarter of your candidate data points up and disappear before even being presented for evaluation. I mean, it could also be perfectly innocent like those missing fourteen not leaving working contact details, or turning out to be a duplicate entry from one of the candidates that were contacted, but it still needs to be stated.
Even ignoring “wholeness” or “SJW crap” or any kind of bullshit gatekeeping, it’s just straight up good business sense. You want to make your game, your buisness, as open to everybody as possible. Why limit your customer base? And when you’re selling essentially art pieces with a game tacked on, well, then why not be more inclusive?
Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a target demographic. This is true for TV networks, book series, music, magazines, videogames, cars, or even tabletop wargames like Warhammer.
When you start doing design by committee stuff to appeal to as many different groups of people as possible you just end up watering down your brand. I mean I get it - It's fun to dunk on the stereotypical fat neckbeards you see at the LGS, but those are the guys who are spending hundreds of dollars a month on GW products and keeping the company afloat (and making record profits).
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
edited March 2020
Having a target demographic is fine. Having it be “fat neckbeards” is however not enough to sustain three hundred wholly-owned premises, a dozen different games, an entire product line of injection-moulded polystyrene manufactured in-house in a country with one of the highest labour costs in the world, and a monthly production budget that matches or exceeds the annual budget of several of their direct competitors.
And as far as I can see GW isn’t doing “design by committee stuff” or even trying to appeal to the broadest possible range of people. Just consciously changing their miniatures to reflect what’s actually been in their provided background/fluff for decades.
VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
edited March 2020
I saw 40+ new posts and thought maybe a new edition was teased.
Responding to a few things that have come up:
The idea of target demographics isn't inherently bad, but the implementation almost always is. It usually goes something like: brand/company/entertainment franchise believes it has certain demographic -> focuses all marketing efforts on said target demographics -> research shows that demographic overindexes for that brand/company/entertainment franchise -> all future marketing efforts focus on that demographic, because that's what the research says to do. Comic books, video games, TTRPGs are all examples of the above but we know that they are enjoyed by diverse audiences rather than just white men. Source: I work in advertising.
Warhammer isn't really any different, it's just catching up to these other spaces given it's more niche and the fanbase tends to be more extreme as a baseline in my experience.
Lore can always be advanced. 8th Edition has shown us that and, barring the last year of play, the game has been the best it's ever been because GW was willing to make changes. People always threaten to ragequit when they feel like they aren't being pandered to but no, they won't because they've built too much of their identity around this one thing and probably in an unhealthy way. The most likely thing that these changes will bring is more money for GW since new lore = new models.
Look, diverse groups are common to my upbringing so seeing it in art feels natural to me, but representation doesn't do a damn thing. I repeat my D&D 3E vs. VtM example. For the third edition of D&D they put a great deal of effort into representation, the iconic characters were 50% women, all different races, here's an article one of the designers wrote: https://www.enworld.org/threads/diversity-in-d-d-third-edition.668462/
None of it mattered, in the very same peer group, the same high school RPG club, the girls actively playing VtM considered D&D some nerdy nonsense and had zero interest in playing it.
Iron Man has done more to get women interested in space marines than female space marines ever would, and insisting that the "flagship faction" must include women serves only to antagonize the gentlemen who are deeply invested in the fiction and make a spectacle of how great an "ally" you are.
Just sharing my anecdotal experience as well here, but over the last few years I've seen a ton more female players interested in D&D, to the point where there's almost 100% overlap between Vampire and D&D groups in my friendship circle. That's not something that I'd have seen ten years ago, and the reasons for it are possibly multifaceted, but over the long term a dedicated push for greater representation of different demographics does pay off. It's just not something that you should expect to involve flicking a switch and seeing immediate effects.
If nothing else, this is likely going to wind up being a business decision for GW. Targeting a specific demographic is fine. Targeting a larger demographic is better.
While I'm generally of no objection towards changing stuff for better inclusion maybe 40k isn't where to look if you want to see yourself represented? There aren't any good guys. Do we generally think bad guys should be more inclusive in their representation? The Astartes are all dudes because the Imperium is a shitty fascist state obsessed with machoism. Would adding female fascist ubermensch to their legions really improve anything?
I mean if they do I'm not going to complain, I understand that its important to people as a general topic and it doesn't effect me in the slightest. I just kind of wonder.
I totally think including women amongst the “bad guys” too makes a difference.
Even when it’s something as simple as mooks/henchwomen. I remember way back when the Saints Row games started having the enemy gangs populated by equally amounts men and women. I thought that was cool.
Look, diverse groups are common to my upbringing so seeing it in art feels natural to me, but representation doesn't do a damn thing. I repeat my D&D 3E vs. VtM example. For the third edition of D&D they put a great deal of effort into representation, the iconic characters were 50% women, all different races, here's an article one of the designers wrote: https://www.enworld.org/threads/diversity-in-d-d-third-edition.668462/
None of it mattered, in the very same peer group, the same high school RPG club, the girls actively playing VtM considered D&D some nerdy nonsense and had zero interest in playing it.
Iron Man has done more to get women interested in space marines than female space marines ever would, and insisting that the "flagship faction" must include women serves only to antagonize the gentlemen who are deeply invested in the fiction and make a spectacle of how great an "ally" you are.
Just sharing my anecdotal experience as well here, but over the last few years I've seen a ton more female players interested in D&D, to the point where there's almost 100% overlap between Vampire and D&D groups in my friendship circle. That's not something that I'd have seen ten years ago, and the reasons for it are possibly multifaceted, but over the long term a dedicated push for greater representation of different demographics does pay off. It's just not something that you should expect to involve flicking a switch and seeing immediate effects.
If nothing else, this is likely going to wind up being a business decision for GW. Targeting a specific demographic is fine. Targeting a larger demographic is better.
You're only reinforcing my point, the 3rd, 4th and 5th editions of D&D all have incredibly representative art and text... but only in the last few years have you been seeing more women enter the hobby.
I posit that Game of Thrones being an incredible success across has made it socially acceptable for "normal" people to enjoy fantasy, I posit that the Marvel movies, new barrage of Star Wars movies, the board game renaissance in general, tech jobs being hip and lucrative, etc. etc. have all greatly shifted the "overton window" regarding what's cool. The market for D&D has grown and half of those new players are women.
For the gentleman stating his friend watched Critical Role and wanted to try D&D, I propose that the presence of women on Critical Role had less to do with it than whatever societal factors made media like Critical Role even a viable concept, let alone the factors that lead your friend to watch that show.
A lot of people want this to be some kind of noble battle they can be on the front lines of and it's just not. By all means include women in the gameplay pictures, add in women to all the armies it makes sense to, it just looks nice. But this self righteous insistence that you've found something "problematic" that desperately needs to be addressed has to go. There's nothing wrong with toy soldiers with knightly monastic brotherhood aesthetics being all male, it's not harming anyone and I'm always shocked by the lack of empathy towards the emotional investments of others on display in these arguments.
I'm also pretty dismayed this forum has a moderator censor someone they're personally arguing with for disagreeing with them (aka "stirring up shit"), but whatever.
A lot of people want this to be some kind of noble battle they can be on the front lines of and it's just not. By all means include women in the gameplay pictures, add in women to all the armies it makes sense to, it just looks nice. But this self righteous insistence that you've found something "problematic" that desperately needs to be addressed has to go. There's nothing wrong with toy soldiers with knightly monastic brotherhood aesthetics being all male, it's not harming anyone and I'm always shocked by the lack of empathy towards the emotional investments of others on display in these arguments.
Can someone just quote this paragraph the next time the female space muhreen subject comes up so that we can skip the same exact series of posts that normally follow?
I'm also pretty dismayed this forum has a moderator censor someone they're personally arguing with for disagreeing with them (aka "stirring up shit"), but whatever.
Yeah.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Look, diverse groups are common to my upbringing so seeing it in art feels natural to me, but representation doesn't do a damn thing. I repeat my D&D 3E vs. VtM example. For the third edition of D&D they put a great deal of effort into representation, the iconic characters were 50% women, all different races, here's an article one of the designers wrote: https://www.enworld.org/threads/diversity-in-d-d-third-edition.668462/
None of it mattered, in the very same peer group, the same high school RPG club, the girls actively playing VtM considered D&D some nerdy nonsense and had zero interest in playing it.
Iron Man has done more to get women interested in space marines than female space marines ever would, and insisting that the "flagship faction" must include women serves only to antagonize the gentlemen who are deeply invested in the fiction and make a spectacle of how great an "ally" you are.
Just sharing my anecdotal experience as well here, but over the last few years I've seen a ton more female players interested in D&D, to the point where there's almost 100% overlap between Vampire and D&D groups in my friendship circle. That's not something that I'd have seen ten years ago, and the reasons for it are possibly multifaceted, but over the long term a dedicated push for greater representation of different demographics does pay off. It's just not something that you should expect to involve flicking a switch and seeing immediate effects.
If nothing else, this is likely going to wind up being a business decision for GW. Targeting a specific demographic is fine. Targeting a larger demographic is better.
You're only reinforcing my point, the 3rd, 4th and 5th editions of D&D all have incredibly representative art and text... but only in the last few years have you been seeing more women enter the hobby.
I posit that Game of Thrones being an incredible success across has made it socially acceptable for "normal" people to enjoy fantasy, I posit that the Marvel movies, new barrage of Star Wars movies, the board game renaissance in general, tech jobs being hip and lucrative, etc. etc. have all greatly shifted the "overton window" regarding what's cool. The market for D&D has grown and half of those new players are women.
For the gentleman stating his friend watched Critical Role and wanted to try D&D, I propose that the presence of women on Critical Role had less to do with it than whatever societal factors made media like Critical Role even a viable concept, let alone the factors that lead your friend to watch that show.
A lot of people want this to be some kind of noble battle they can be on the front lines of and it's just not. By all means include women in the gameplay pictures, add in women to all the armies it makes sense to, it just looks nice. But this self righteous insistence that you've found something "problematic" that desperately needs to be addressed has to go. There's nothing wrong with toy soldiers with knightly monastic brotherhood aesthetics being all male, it's not harming anyone and I'm always shocked by the lack of empathy towards the emotional investments of others on display in these arguments.
I'm also pretty dismayed this forum has a moderator censor someone they're personally arguing with for disagreeing with them (aka "stirring up shit"), but whatever.
So it also wouldn't hurt to just add bare female heads to the model range? That is what I'm understanding with your post.
You and everyone arguing against that inclusion of female space marines also haven't given any real reason not to add them. I do see a lot of pointless anecdotal nonsense though. So that is cool.
As far as the critical role topic, Norgoth literally said their friend thought D&D was for boys only until they saw the cast of critical role so that clearly has more to do with that person finding out than what makes critical role viable. Viability in that situation would be pointless if the entire cast was male.
KiTA was more than likely kicked because hew as willing to be a silly goose and move forward with the idea that gatekeeping over this was fine.
And yea, I have zero empathy or sympathy for people who refuse change.
A lot of people want this to be some kind of noble battle they can be on the front lines of and it's just not. By all means include women in the gameplay pictures, add in women to all the armies it makes sense to, it just looks nice. But this self righteous insistence that you've found something "problematic" that desperately needs to be addressed has to go. There's nothing wrong with toy soldiers with knightly monastic brotherhood aesthetics being all male, it's not harming anyone and I'm always shocked by the lack of empathy towards the emotional investments of others on display in these arguments.
Can someone just quote this paragraph the next time the female space muhreen subject comes up so that we can skip the same exact series of posts that normally follow?
I'm also pretty dismayed this forum has a moderator censor someone they're personally arguing with for disagreeing with them (aka "stirring up shit"), but whatever.
Yeah.
Sure, someone can quote it but it doesn't make it any less of a silly argument to try and keep some weird notion that space marines have to all be boys.
I'm 100% down for anything that brings more people into the hobby regardless of gender and if adding female space marines, space marines being the absolutely poster child faction of this game brings in more people to play with then hell yea, bring in female space marines. Bring in female necrons with boobs, Wargaming Exclusive already makes them people use them so there is a market for it.
I've seen people be vindictive neckbeards because they were shunned or made fun of in school for being a nerd and they want to treat these people who did nothing to them like shit because these people now want to get into this hobby. This whole no female space marines thing reeks of that vindictive nonsense more than it does an issue with lore.
Stragint on
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I’d be more empathetic to that “emotional investment” if people would stop dodging the question as to why someone inventing the process for female space marines are impossible according to the lore. It’s hard to take “but what about the lore” seriously when no one can ever actually articulate what harm is actually being done to the lore.
Also the constant attempt to paint people who care about representation as having some sort of complex or desire to be seen as a noble social justice warrior amongst their peers or whatever is fuckin’ clown shoes. People care about representation. Representation matters. Deal with it.
I’d be more empathetic to that “emotional investment” if people would stop dodging the question as to why someone inventing the process for female space marines are impossible according to the lore. It’s hard to take “but what about the lore” seriously when no one can ever actually articulate what harm is actually being done to the lore.
You must not have been around the last few times it has come up. The Primarchs are all male because they were created in part using genetic material from the Emperor. Space Marines are all male because they are created in part using genetic material from their respective Primarchs.
Space Marines are also male because the entire game is just traditional fantasy lore but in space (Space Marines are just knights that go on crusades to fight other knights, plus Orks, Elves, and monsters in the name of their king, while being supported by monks, nuns, and Inquisitors, while using swords and wizards). This is called subtext.
Age of Sigmar gets around this by saying lolmagic, Sigmar just grabs whatever souls died while resisting chaos no matter what gender and reforms them into superhumans. GW has an official comic strip featuring a female stormcast of color. Their official standee for AOS is a female Stormcast. They even have a female Stormcast front and center on the cover of their Battletome. How many women do you know that play Stormcast Eternals?
GW's big money maker is 40k and its flagship faction that is plastered across all of it's art is male only. That is problematic and I'm not being noble or a white knight in thinking that.
There is zero reason why the lore, which is contradictory at best, can't be changed so that you can now get female primaris space marines.
In fact I can't think of any worthwhile reason as to why we can't have female space marines, considering in the not so distant future, we're going to have robots riding fire breathing horses (when is the new admech stuff going to be released) while the rest of the faction is using vehicles seemingly designed by a drunk Da Vinci.
Let's say Cawl makes some kind of scientific breakthrough that allows for female Marines, or some random chapter has a geneseed mutation that allows for the creation of female Marines.
What exactly about either of those scenarios is problematic for the current lore?
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VanguardBut now the dream is over. And the insect is awake.Registered User, __BANNED USERSregular
The irony of a post simultaneously declaring that this particular subject is off limits from critique while decrying another poster for censorship is, frankly, overwhelming.
The Primarchs are all male because they were created in part using genetic material from the Emperor. Space Marines are all male because they are created in part using genetic material from their respective Primarchs.
In the real world, girls are female because they were created in part using genetic material from their fathers. Edit: This is how XY sex determination works in mammals. But perhaps in 40k humans aren't mammals.
Space Marines are also male because the entire game is just traditional fantasy lore but in space (Space Marines are just knights that go on crusades to fight other knights, plus Orks, Elves, and monsters in the name of their king, while being supported by monks, nuns, and Inquisitors, while using swords and wizards). This is called subtext.
Good things female knights don't exist in either fiction or in reality.
Age of Sigmar gets around this by saying lolmagic, Sigmar just grabs whatever souls died while resisting chaos no matter what gender and reforms them into superhumans. GW has an official comic strip featuring a female stormcast of color. Their official standee for AOS is a female Stormcast. They even have a female Stormcast front and center on the cover of their Battletome. How many women do you know that play Stormcast Eternals?
KiTA was kicked because he’s tilting at windmills and making bad faith arguments. All while endorsing gatekeeping nonsense and posting an irrelevant comic that tips his hand.
I think people are just applying causation to a whatever event helps their argument. Representation is not a silver bullet, and it can be done very wrong (see just about everything Disney has in the past five years). It’s still nice for people to see that they have a place in the world, and aren’t pressed into the margins or absent entirely such as in daily life. And again, if it wasn’t at least somewhat important, then I don’t think guys would be fighting so hard against it.
Iron Man has done more to get women interested in space marines than female space marines ever would, and insisting that the "flagship faction" must include women serves only to antagonize the gentlemen who are deeply invested in the fiction and make a spectacle of how great an "ally" you are.
How does it antagonize men? Like, if you are THAT deeply invested in the lore then maybe you need a reality check. There is a setting where gender matters deeply as part of the lore, but Warhammer just ain't it.
Sisters of Battle were created largely in response to demand for female Space Marines without...actually making female Space Marines. That's why nobody is asking for that, just like how nobody is asking for female Necron because the entire faction is robot skeletons void of personality. Please put a bit more thought into your gotcha questions.
And if representation doesn't matter, then why are men so passionately defending theirs
Okay but there are some cool lady Necrons though like:
"Xun'bakyr, known as the Mother of Oblivion, is a female Necron Overlord and Phaerakh of the Maynarkh Dynasty. Violent and malicious to the extreme like all of her subjects, she nonetheless was able to give her violent dynasty a purpose and mission after the Great Sleep so that it could maintain its discipline: the systematic extermination of all life."
There is zero reason why the lore, which is contradictory at best, can't be changed so that you can now get female primaris space marines.
There is zero reason why any decades old piece of fundamental lore for any franchise can't be changed.
I think Batman should be asian and shoot criminals with a shotgun. Don't make that face, it's just lore.
Nobody is arguing that GW should retcon marines to always having always had females.
They are arguing that GW should say that Cawl's techno-sorcery has allowed for the creation of female space marines from now on with his new method. I can't see any lore reason why that shouldn't be possible.
If you want females in power armor, you're in luck -they just had a whole model line revamp and the models are great.
If you want characters that aren't white, you're in luck - you can actually paint your models any color you want to, and no one can stop you... and GW even has multiple official tutorials on painting non-white skin tones using the huge selection of non-white skin tone colored paints that they sell.
How is that not representation? Because there is one faction that is male only?
If you want female space marines, that's tough. They don't exist, and it looks like GW is not going to be changing that stance anytime soon (if ever). You can't always get what you want.
There is zero reason why the lore, which is contradictory at best, can't be changed so that you can now get female primaris space marines.
There is zero reason why any decades old piece of fundamental lore for any franchise can't be changed.
I think Batman should be asian and shoot criminals with a shotgun. Don't make that face, it's just lore.
They’s literally done this, multiple times, but let’s go down this path.
The difference is Batman not using guns is part of the character. It is an important part of his character that shapes the story. When Batman uses a gun, it’s crossing a line and should signify something important happening. When it’s just...there, people are reasonably upset because Batman’s non-lethal methods justify aspects of his characters (vigilantism, extreme methods in other areas, etc.) Batman using a gun is what signaled his retirement in Batman Beyond. He had to cross a line to save himself, indicating that he could not be Batman anymore. If Batman didn’t use guns because...he just can’t use them, then it comes off as more reasonable to scrap that.
And this ignores that Batman has used guns countless times, so your argument got shot in the foot by Ben Affleck’s Batman.
Compare this to Warhammer, where it is just a handwave to explain something. There’s no real reason for them to be men: the comics and books may use that for some explorations into brotherhood and masculinity, but that only justifies those characters as opposed to all Space Marines. A female Space Marine would be every bit as hardass military religious zealot, unlike a Batman who killed people being treated very different from one that doesn’t.
But in your self-defeating argument is kind of the point: these are aging franchises, and re-invention is part and parcel of keeping it fresh. Much like how Batman inevitably explored in various ways a story in which he shoots people, Warhammer itself sees sometimes drastic change to keep things interesting. Now, it’s another interesting discussion on just how far you can go before it...isn’t Batman anymore, which is a legitimate concern! But the tin can shooty men have ladies inside doesn’t feel like it would cross that line.
There is zero reason why the lore, which is contradictory at best, can't be changed so that you can now get female primaris space marines.
There is zero reason why any decades old piece of fundamental lore for any franchise can't be changed.
I think Batman should be asian and shoot criminals with a shotgun. Don't make that face, it's just lore.
Why would I have an issue with an Asian batman? Do you think batman shouldn’t be Asian just like you don’t think GW shouldn’t have female Primaris marines?
I’d be more empathetic to that “emotional investment” if people would stop dodging the question as to why someone inventing the process for female space marines are impossible according to the lore. It’s hard to take “but what about the lore” seriously when no one can ever actually articulate what harm is actually being done to the lore.
You must not have been around the last few times it has come up. The Primarchs are all male because they were created in part using genetic material from the Emperor. Space Marines are all male because they are created in part using genetic material from their respective Primarchs.
Space Marines are also male because the entire game is just traditional fantasy lore but in space (Space Marines are just knights that go on crusades to fight other knights, plus Orks, Elves, and monsters in the name of their king, while being supported by monks, nuns, and Inquisitors, while using swords and wizards). This is called subtext.
Age of Sigmar gets around this by saying lolmagic, Sigmar just grabs whatever souls died while resisting chaos no matter what gender and reforms them into superhumans. GW has an official comic strip featuring a female stormcast of color. Their official standee for AOS is a female Stormcast. They even have a female Stormcast front and center on the cover of their Battletome. How many women do you know that play Stormcast Eternals?
None of this invalidates the idea that female marines can be invented, is what people are saying.
I understand why they haven’t existed YET.
But that existing lore doesn’t disqualify the idea that a scientific breakthrough can happen.
X-23 is a clone of Wolverine, as an example. The source being male doesn’t keep a scientist from tinkering with the source.
Especially when we look at marines for what they are: weapons. It makes plenty of sense that the sciences in wartime would strive to make improvements. War pushes innovation. And Rowboat Guilltine strikes me as the type that will value making his army better over the taboo of it, considering Primaris was also his thing.
There’s also interesting things you can do with the lore. Primaris is a bit controversial within the fiction, and women would be, too. Who accepts it and who doesn’t? What tensions arise from it? Plenty of novels already examine the toxicity of marine and imperium culture, this is just another avenue to explore.
If you want females in power armor, you're in luck -they just had a whole model line revamp and the models are great.
If you want characters that aren't white, you're in luck - you can actually paint your models any color you want to, and no one can stop you... and GW even has multiple official tutorials on painting non-white skin tones using the huge selection of non-white skin tone colored paints that they sell.
How is that not representation? Because there is one faction that is male only?
If you want female space marines, that's tough. They don't exist, and it looks like GW is not going to be changing that stance anytime soon (if ever). You can't always get what you want.
This is a really bad argument. You are saying because sisters of battle exists that someone should just play sisters of battle instead of wanting to play space marines? A faction that doesn't get nearly the same model amount that space marines have? Space marines have a ton of cool ass models that no one else gets access to and that could be the reason someone wants to play them.
There is zero reason why the lore, which is contradictory at best, can't be changed so that you can now get female primaris space marines.
There is zero reason why any decades old piece of fundamental lore for any franchise can't be changed.
I think Batman should be asian and shoot criminals with a shotgun. Don't make that face, it's just lore.
As far as this, you are aware that DC and Marvel are constantly making changes to their characters? Whether it is a whole new person or an alternate reality, right? Batman being Asian and shooting criminals with a shotgun is entirely possible and could potentially already be a thing. There is a version of Batman that absolutely shoots criminals with guns.
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There will never be Female Space Marines. It goes against 30 years of established lore and canon. It's a stupid, pandering idea that would cost GW millions of dollars for no benefit other than making woke activists smug on reddit.
Hold up! I want to set aside how you feel about whether or not they should for a minute to address this particular bit.
If you actually believe it would cost them anything more than some fans bitching on 4chan and reddit then you're out of your mind.
You can't actually think they'd lose millions of dollars in sales for something that minor.
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Sisters of Battle were created largely in response to demand for female Space Marines without...actually making female Space Marines. That's why nobody is asking for that, just like how nobody is asking for female Necron because the entire faction is robot skeletons void of personality. Please put a bit more thought into your gotcha questions.
And if representation doesn't matter, then why are men so passionately defending theirs
The Sisters aren’t even an all-ladies faction, they have male units in their codex.
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Even if it was people generally tweak the rules for new players. All the guides I've read for DMing tells you about using kid gloves for new players and stretching rules to maintain fun because they assume you aren't an asshole.
Geth, kick @KiTA from the thread.
If you want to get technical, those aren't Sisters of Battle units, they are Adeptus Ministorum units.
The Sisters of Battle codex just sort of became a catch all for random spacechurch models, because no one wants to have to dig out their old Imperium 2 index whenever they want to run a Preacher. There are no males in the actual Sisters of Battle faction.
I get what you mean. I’m just pointing out that even with our female faction, we end up having male units tacked on. Luckily you don’t really need to use them, a “pure” Sisters list can easily ignore them.
It’s just kind of a bummer that there is literally only one codex that has more female models than male ones. Every other codex is either male only, mixed favouring male models, or technically gender-neutral but still male-coded in their visual design(orks). I suppose there’s Necrons, who just look like skeletons and are the souls of an entire civilization jammed into robot bodies that could be any gender. Though even then, all their main named characters are dudes.
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I almost would've felt bad for the guy who got kicked around Dakkadakka when he tried to pull it over there, if it wasn't just so pathetic.
I have bought all the singular one off female models, as well as now having a sizeable SoB force (I'm just waiting for the last bits of the range to be released). My 7 year old daughter goes into our "library" on a regular basis and has a proper look at the SoB range. I'm hoping sometime in the near future to have a few games with her.
I always go back to the story that when I went into my local GW with my daughter for the first time, she was really excited to see where her daddy got all his toy soldiers and the disappointment that rose from not being able to see many girl models.
In all the surveys I have requested when relevant for more female models (the Eldar factions for instance do a reasonably good job).
Also, I've been collecting since the end of first edition and playing off and on since 2nd edition.
Female Stormcast have been done well, I don't see why Primaris Marines wouldn't work either, and it would be nice to see if / when some ranges get updated (eg:Imperial Guard) we see more mixed representation.
I am a white guy. My wife and her family are black.
I took my nephew to see Civil War and after the movie I asked him what part he liked the best.
“Black panther,” he said.
“Why?” I asked.
“Because he’s like me.”
On a similar vein a friend of mine asked me to run DND for her birthday, her first time doing so. She specifically said to me “I always assumed it was just for guys, but I’ve been watching critical role and it looks amazing.” The fact that that is incredibly popular series has a mixed gender cast made her realise that it was something open to her.
That group I’m running has nine players (oh god help me) and one of them is a guy. One.
Even ignoring “wholeness” or “SJW crap” or any kind of bullshit gatekeeping, it’s just straight up good business sense. You want to make your game, your buisness, as open to everybody as possible. Why limit your customer base? And when you’re selling essentially art pieces with a game tacked on, well, then why not be more inclusive?
To answer the “do I put me money where my mouth is” question, I do. I’ve bought Tau, I’ve bought Eldar, I’m in the process of buying Sisters Of Battle, all factions that have mixed gender forces. (Yes, I know that the men in SoB are Ministorum, but they’re basically mandatory in the good SoB lists. Hell you could very easily build a list that’s some basic sisters squads and then all Arco-Flagellants and penetience engines. Both iconic units for them, both noticeably dudes.)
And let’s be super honest with ourselves. The guys that complain the loudest, who bitch and moan and throw up six page essays about the lore online, those guys, they’re still going to buy it anyway.
(See everything 9th age player I know still buying and using GW models to build their armies. Good job guys, you sure showed them.)
I mean if they do I'm not going to complain, I understand that its important to people as a general topic and it doesn't effect me in the slightest. I just kind of wonder.
I read through the first post and it seemed very positive regarding the effort involved. Did I miss something there? Is there any data on the long-term effects or player statistics? I didn’t want to scroll through 35 pages.
Likewise I read up to the methodology of the article KiTA linked:
30 interviews seems to me a pretty limited sample size to draw conclusions from. The rest of Shaw’s methods seem pretty suspect too: he lets the interviewees define their own terms and doesn’t attempt to baseline their experiences. I don’t do research so please correct me if I’m wrong but this doesn’t seem like anything one could draw conclusions from.
I thought Marines were all male, because when designing the first plastic kit, the designers had to make a decision to make them all male or all female (I'm not sure where I heard this from to be granted).
So the lore stems from model design limitations; just like the Horus Heresy stems from that Titan box, where all the Titans looked the same and so they came up with a reason for a civil war.
The facist angle of 40k is in a weird place. Where it’s leveraged as a kind of fun fantasy facism. I still think representation matters, but there is definitely a weird undertone to the imperium.
We see the same kind of thing with Star Wars. The Empire and the First Order are facists, but you can go out and buy a stormtrooper helmet mug and some first order pyjamas.
I think maybe it’s the fact that it’s fun to be the bad guys overrides the philosophical issues of it?
When I played Flames Of War I had a German force. I couldn’t be any further from a nazi, but it was fun to be able to run panzers and try blitzkrieg tactics.
I would love someone way more qualified from me to run a study into this actually. Why do we feel this pull towards the bad guys even when what they’ve done is horrific? (Everyone loves Dath Vader and he’s done multiple genocides at this point.)
That said, does the author ever state why only 38 of 52 respondents were even contacted? Being unclear on things like that can lead to suspicions of *ahem* pre-selection criteria which is never a good thing in any study, never mind one where a quarter of your candidate data points up and disappear before even being presented for evaluation. I mean, it could also be perfectly innocent like those missing fourteen not leaving working contact details, or turning out to be a duplicate entry from one of the candidates that were contacted, but it still needs to be stated.
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Because there is absolutely nothing wrong with having a target demographic. This is true for TV networks, book series, music, magazines, videogames, cars, or even tabletop wargames like Warhammer.
When you start doing design by committee stuff to appeal to as many different groups of people as possible you just end up watering down your brand. I mean I get it - It's fun to dunk on the stereotypical fat neckbeards you see at the LGS, but those are the guys who are spending hundreds of dollars a month on GW products and keeping the company afloat (and making record profits).
And as far as I can see GW isn’t doing “design by committee stuff” or even trying to appeal to the broadest possible range of people. Just consciously changing their miniatures to reflect what’s actually been in their provided background/fluff for decades.
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Responding to a few things that have come up:
The idea of target demographics isn't inherently bad, but the implementation almost always is. It usually goes something like: brand/company/entertainment franchise believes it has certain demographic -> focuses all marketing efforts on said target demographics -> research shows that demographic overindexes for that brand/company/entertainment franchise -> all future marketing efforts focus on that demographic, because that's what the research says to do. Comic books, video games, TTRPGs are all examples of the above but we know that they are enjoyed by diverse audiences rather than just white men. Source: I work in advertising.
Warhammer isn't really any different, it's just catching up to these other spaces given it's more niche and the fanbase tends to be more extreme as a baseline in my experience.
Lore can always be advanced. 8th Edition has shown us that and, barring the last year of play, the game has been the best it's ever been because GW was willing to make changes. People always threaten to ragequit when they feel like they aren't being pandered to but no, they won't because they've built too much of their identity around this one thing and probably in an unhealthy way. The most likely thing that these changes will bring is more money for GW since new lore = new models.
Just sharing my anecdotal experience as well here, but over the last few years I've seen a ton more female players interested in D&D, to the point where there's almost 100% overlap between Vampire and D&D groups in my friendship circle. That's not something that I'd have seen ten years ago, and the reasons for it are possibly multifaceted, but over the long term a dedicated push for greater representation of different demographics does pay off. It's just not something that you should expect to involve flicking a switch and seeing immediate effects.
If nothing else, this is likely going to wind up being a business decision for GW. Targeting a specific demographic is fine. Targeting a larger demographic is better.
I totally think including women amongst the “bad guys” too makes a difference.
Even when it’s something as simple as mooks/henchwomen. I remember way back when the Saints Row games started having the enemy gangs populated by equally amounts men and women. I thought that was cool.
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You're only reinforcing my point, the 3rd, 4th and 5th editions of D&D all have incredibly representative art and text... but only in the last few years have you been seeing more women enter the hobby.
I posit that Game of Thrones being an incredible success across has made it socially acceptable for "normal" people to enjoy fantasy, I posit that the Marvel movies, new barrage of Star Wars movies, the board game renaissance in general, tech jobs being hip and lucrative, etc. etc. have all greatly shifted the "overton window" regarding what's cool. The market for D&D has grown and half of those new players are women.
For the gentleman stating his friend watched Critical Role and wanted to try D&D, I propose that the presence of women on Critical Role had less to do with it than whatever societal factors made media like Critical Role even a viable concept, let alone the factors that lead your friend to watch that show.
A lot of people want this to be some kind of noble battle they can be on the front lines of and it's just not. By all means include women in the gameplay pictures, add in women to all the armies it makes sense to, it just looks nice. But this self righteous insistence that you've found something "problematic" that desperately needs to be addressed has to go. There's nothing wrong with toy soldiers with knightly monastic brotherhood aesthetics being all male, it's not harming anyone and I'm always shocked by the lack of empathy towards the emotional investments of others on display in these arguments.
I'm also pretty dismayed this forum has a moderator censor someone they're personally arguing with for disagreeing with them (aka "stirring up shit"), but whatever.
Can someone just quote this paragraph the next time the female space muhreen subject comes up so that we can skip the same exact series of posts that normally follow?
Yeah.
So it also wouldn't hurt to just add bare female heads to the model range? That is what I'm understanding with your post.
You and everyone arguing against that inclusion of female space marines also haven't given any real reason not to add them. I do see a lot of pointless anecdotal nonsense though. So that is cool.
As far as the critical role topic, Norgoth literally said their friend thought D&D was for boys only until they saw the cast of critical role so that clearly has more to do with that person finding out than what makes critical role viable. Viability in that situation would be pointless if the entire cast was male.
KiTA was more than likely kicked because hew as willing to be a silly goose and move forward with the idea that gatekeeping over this was fine.
And yea, I have zero empathy or sympathy for people who refuse change.
Sure, someone can quote it but it doesn't make it any less of a silly argument to try and keep some weird notion that space marines have to all be boys.
I'm 100% down for anything that brings more people into the hobby regardless of gender and if adding female space marines, space marines being the absolutely poster child faction of this game brings in more people to play with then hell yea, bring in female space marines. Bring in female necrons with boobs, Wargaming Exclusive already makes them people use them so there is a market for it.
I've seen people be vindictive neckbeards because they were shunned or made fun of in school for being a nerd and they want to treat these people who did nothing to them like shit because these people now want to get into this hobby. This whole no female space marines thing reeks of that vindictive nonsense more than it does an issue with lore.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
My Let's Play Channel: https://youtube.com/channel/UC2go70QLfwGq-hW4nvUqmog
You must not have been around the last few times it has come up. The Primarchs are all male because they were created in part using genetic material from the Emperor. Space Marines are all male because they are created in part using genetic material from their respective Primarchs.
Space Marines are also male because the entire game is just traditional fantasy lore but in space (Space Marines are just knights that go on crusades to fight other knights, plus Orks, Elves, and monsters in the name of their king, while being supported by monks, nuns, and Inquisitors, while using swords and wizards). This is called subtext.
Age of Sigmar gets around this by saying lolmagic, Sigmar just grabs whatever souls died while resisting chaos no matter what gender and reforms them into superhumans. GW has an official comic strip featuring a female stormcast of color. Their official standee for AOS is a female Stormcast. They even have a female Stormcast front and center on the cover of their Battletome. How many women do you know that play Stormcast Eternals?
There is zero reason why the lore, which is contradictory at best, can't be changed so that you can now get female primaris space marines.
In fact I can't think of any worthwhile reason as to why we can't have female space marines, considering in the not so distant future, we're going to have robots riding fire breathing horses (when is the new admech stuff going to be released) while the rest of the faction is using vehicles seemingly designed by a drunk Da Vinci.
There is zero reason why any decades old piece of fundamental lore for any franchise can't be changed.
I think Batman should be asian and shoot criminals with a shotgun. Don't make that face, it's just lore.
What exactly about either of those scenarios is problematic for the current lore?
In the real world, girls are female because they were created in part using genetic material from their fathers. Edit: This is how XY sex determination works in mammals. But perhaps in 40k humans aren't mammals.
Good things female knights don't exist in either fiction or in reality.
Your argument is that magic doesn't exist in 40k?
I think people are just applying causation to a whatever event helps their argument. Representation is not a silver bullet, and it can be done very wrong (see just about everything Disney has in the past five years). It’s still nice for people to see that they have a place in the world, and aren’t pressed into the margins or absent entirely such as in daily life. And again, if it wasn’t at least somewhat important, then I don’t think guys would be fighting so hard against it.
Okay but there are some cool lady Necrons though like:
It's me, I'm the one who wants lady Necrons.
Nobody is arguing that GW should retcon marines to always having always had females.
They are arguing that GW should say that Cawl's techno-sorcery has allowed for the creation of female space marines from now on with his new method. I can't see any lore reason why that shouldn't be possible.
If you want characters that aren't white, you're in luck - you can actually paint your models any color you want to, and no one can stop you... and GW even has multiple official tutorials on painting non-white skin tones using the huge selection of non-white skin tone colored paints that they sell.
How is that not representation? Because there is one faction that is male only?
If you want female space marines, that's tough. They don't exist, and it looks like GW is not going to be changing that stance anytime soon (if ever). You can't always get what you want.
The difference is Batman not using guns is part of the character. It is an important part of his character that shapes the story. When Batman uses a gun, it’s crossing a line and should signify something important happening. When it’s just...there, people are reasonably upset because Batman’s non-lethal methods justify aspects of his characters (vigilantism, extreme methods in other areas, etc.) Batman using a gun is what signaled his retirement in Batman Beyond. He had to cross a line to save himself, indicating that he could not be Batman anymore. If Batman didn’t use guns because...he just can’t use them, then it comes off as more reasonable to scrap that.
And this ignores that Batman has used guns countless times, so your argument got shot in the foot by Ben Affleck’s Batman.
Compare this to Warhammer, where it is just a handwave to explain something. There’s no real reason for them to be men: the comics and books may use that for some explorations into brotherhood and masculinity, but that only justifies those characters as opposed to all Space Marines. A female Space Marine would be every bit as hardass military religious zealot, unlike a Batman who killed people being treated very different from one that doesn’t.
But in your self-defeating argument is kind of the point: these are aging franchises, and re-invention is part and parcel of keeping it fresh. Much like how Batman inevitably explored in various ways a story in which he shoots people, Warhammer itself sees sometimes drastic change to keep things interesting. Now, it’s another interesting discussion on just how far you can go before it...isn’t Batman anymore, which is a legitimate concern! But the tin can shooty men have ladies inside doesn’t feel like it would cross that line.
Why would I have an issue with an Asian batman? Do you think batman shouldn’t be Asian just like you don’t think GW shouldn’t have female Primaris marines?
None of this invalidates the idea that female marines can be invented, is what people are saying.
I understand why they haven’t existed YET.
But that existing lore doesn’t disqualify the idea that a scientific breakthrough can happen.
X-23 is a clone of Wolverine, as an example. The source being male doesn’t keep a scientist from tinkering with the source.
Especially when we look at marines for what they are: weapons. It makes plenty of sense that the sciences in wartime would strive to make improvements. War pushes innovation. And Rowboat Guilltine strikes me as the type that will value making his army better over the taboo of it, considering Primaris was also his thing.
There’s also interesting things you can do with the lore. Primaris is a bit controversial within the fiction, and women would be, too. Who accepts it and who doesn’t? What tensions arise from it? Plenty of novels already examine the toxicity of marine and imperium culture, this is just another avenue to explore.
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This is a really bad argument. You are saying because sisters of battle exists that someone should just play sisters of battle instead of wanting to play space marines? A faction that doesn't get nearly the same model amount that space marines have? Space marines have a ton of cool ass models that no one else gets access to and that could be the reason someone wants to play them.
As far as this, you are aware that DC and Marvel are constantly making changes to their characters? Whether it is a whole new person or an alternate reality, right? Batman being Asian and shooting criminals with a shotgun is entirely possible and could potentially already be a thing. There is a version of Batman that absolutely shoots criminals with guns.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Hold up! I want to set aside how you feel about whether or not they should for a minute to address this particular bit.
If you actually believe it would cost them anything more than some fans bitching on 4chan and reddit then you're out of your mind.
You can't actually think they'd lose millions of dollars in sales for something that minor.