DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Yea one thing is knowing that sometimes they don't have an answer. It can be frustrating running into answers many times in a row and a lot of people concede early.
Just recently I lost late game as Azorious control to mono white life gain and another in late game to that gosh darn abzan enchantress deck.
I literally had used all my sweepers and got out 2 dream trawlers against the monowhite. But they managed to rebuild and once they rebuilt I couldn't do anything without sweepers.
Well it's 2 damage and then it's done and you used an entire card. It doesn't contribute to your board, it doesn't enable embercleave, it doesn't help anax. If you're drawing shocks later in the game it's not usually much of a useful card unless they're right within range and then evasive creatures or whatever could do the same job.
it's not slow, it's inefficient then!
Inefficiency is slow! Burn it all! FEED THE FLAMES OF RDW
(Yes that's probably a better phrase :P )
I typically use shocks to snipe early monsters or as an opener for Skewer the Critics.
I just started playing Arena a couple weeks ago, been playing Magic in general off-and-on since Ice Age.
Not spending any money - this is my cheap burn deck. I've been doing alright.
Oh hey, so you guys know how sometimes I get invited to do those early access streamer events to play the sets early?
Well I got invited to join the "Creator Program" which lets me do on stream challenges to earn rewards for both my account and ones I can give out to community folks. So that's rad! Gonna have to dedicate a stream evening to magic each week so I can shower everyone in ICRs.
Control decks really are only fun for one person. Luckily, the internet means your opponent isn't people, so you can feel free to play whatever!
Ran into a dimir deck last night that was probably 30 removal, counter, or board wipe cards. Never actually played anything on the board. Might have been the least fun Ive ever had in this game.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Control decks really are only fun for one person. Luckily, the internet means your opponent isn't people, so you can feel free to play whatever!
Ran into a dimir deck last night that was probably 30 removal, counter, or board wipe cards. Never actually played anything on the board. Might have been the least fun Ive ever had in this game.
I have a deck like that that I made solely for the "kill # creatures" daily thing.
It doesn't even have any actual wincons other than murderous rider attacking 10 times.
I imagine it is lame to play against but hey, I didn't make that challenge exist.
Control decks really are only fun for one person. Luckily, the internet means your opponent isn't people, so you can feel free to play whatever!
Ran into a dimir deck last night that was probably 30 removal, counter, or board wipe cards. Never actually played anything on the board. Might have been the least fun Ive ever had in this game.
I have a deck like that that I made solely for the "kill # creatures" daily thing.
It doesn't even have any actual wincons other than murderous rider attacking 10 times.
I imagine it is lame to play against but hey, I didn't make that challenge exist.
Its possible thats whats going on but Im pretty sure stuff like Cry of the Carnarium doesnt count.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Control decks really are only fun for one person. Luckily, the internet means your opponent isn't people, so you can feel free to play whatever!
Ran into a dimir deck last night that was probably 30 removal, counter, or board wipe cards. Never actually played anything on the board. Might have been the least fun Ive ever had in this game.
I have a deck like that that I made solely for the "kill # creatures" daily thing.
It doesn't even have any actual wincons other than murderous rider attacking 10 times.
I imagine it is lame to play against but hey, I didn't make that challenge exist.
Its possible thats whats going on but Im pretty sure stuff like Cry of the Carnarium doesnt count.
Some people are just hateful creatures!
The ones that definitely get me are the folks that play no-fun-allowed jank decks.
Because they are only playing against other jank and trying to stop those poor folks from enjoying their own jank.
I imagine it is lame to play against but hey, I didn't make that challenge exist.
I hate that quest so much. It's the only one dependent on your opponent's deck. If they're running your Dimir deck? Welp, no quest progress for me I guess.
If I get stuck with it I'll usually keep it around until I can draft.
I imagine it is lame to play against but hey, I didn't make that challenge exist.
I hate that quest so much. It's the only one dependent on your opponent's deck. If they're running your Dimir deck? Welp, no quest progress for me I guess.
If I get stuck with it I'll usually keep it around until I can draft.
Yea and there's so many times where a play that would get you a chunk of progress ends in a concede.
You see that big juicy wipe opportunity against creature deck? Concede before it resolves.
You swing out with a big attack that requires them to make bad blocks and get you kills? Concede.
It just feels so bad. And thus why i made that deck. It has a bunch of low costs single target removal so I can always get a few off real quickly while also being so incredibly non threatening that people continue to play their turns out and I just concede to anything that doesn't look to have creatures
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
you know you can reroll quests you get
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
They don’t, really. They have a color-intensive three-mana spell that deals with anything (Absorb) and then a bunch of conditional solutions. That’s not different from “back in the day” — different eras of Standard shift the arrangement of solutions and their costs.
Better players than me have written extensively on how to play any deck vs control, but the short version is know what answers they’re bringing, know what cards in your deck they absolutely have to deal with, play out threats that go under their draw-go solutions and then when they tap out you can keep the pressure up. The more counter spells you strand in their hand the better the position you’re in.
I don't know, man. Back then, I think I ran 8 UU counters, a few conditional/limited counters (Since they weren't generally very good), then some stuff like Control Magic, then in W had Wrath/Geddon, 4 Plowshares, then... A Balance or three? White just didn't have the removal tools it does now, nor the control tools, and Blue had much more of a control/counter identity, such that there was about one (1) blue damage spell, and it was pulled out of print after Unlimited. Color identity seems to be much less of a thing, with a concomitant ability to have way the hell more of every kind of tool in a given color combo, and it goes along with what, decades of power creep?
Like, in what modern deck would a Serra Angel be your win condition? A Mahamoti Djinn? A 5/6 flier for 4UU was fuckin' great, 'cause it was BLUE oh my god.
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Are you saying control decks were worse back then because they merely ran eight unconditional 2-mana counterspells, a 4-mana Agent of Treachery, a 4-mana Wrath, and a 1-mana unconditional exiling removal? 'cause I'm not really sure what to say to that.
The creature finishers in modern control decks are definitely better, but that's about it.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I think you're fucked, mate.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Are you saying control decks were worse back then because they merely ran eight unconditional 2-mana counterspells, a 4-mana Agent of Treachery, a 4-mana Wrath, and a 1-mana unconditional exiling removal? 'cause I'm not really sure what to say to that.
The creature finishers in modern control decks are definitely better, but that's about it.
I'm saying that as a percentage of deck, the amount of "nope" you inflicted upon your opponent was lesser, and the options for "nope" were more limited, though sometimes more powerful individually. (And I'm not sure Control is a 4 mana Agent; Agent is body + steal not subject to a disenchant plus a draw-three effect that I can't imagine ever happens, in exchange for higher price.)
Like, is Time Wipe strictly worse than Wrath of God? 2WW vs 2WWU, but Time Wipe bounces your dude first. How's Kaya's Wrath compare to either? I'll admit I'm not considering the multicolor aspect, since there's so many more types of land it feels pretty easy to do a multicolor deck, so if that's inaccurate, I'll own up no problem.
But I mean come on, I'm not saying "No no, UU to counter a spell then get that spell's CMC as colorless mana in your next main phase is TOTES less powerful than a 1UU counter". (Though I'm legitimately unsure about how to compare Mana Drain to a UUGG unconditional counter that's also a 3/2 creature.)
Edit: Though look, I'm pretty tired right now, and I definitely do not want to get into a Thing about what may be the results of decades-old recall and likely a bunch of subjectivity, so I am willing to concede in general.
dporowski on
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I guess I’m just not sure what you mean when you talk about “percentage of nope”, and of course it’s also tricky because neither of us know what deck you’re exactly talking about. The era of playing Counterspell and Mana Drain was also the era of Power 9 (restricted, at least) and the control deck was The Deck, which I’m sure you don’t deny would make mincemeat out of any modern deck. Spells in that era were so much cheaper and more efficient that it doesn’t matter that a modern deck can play powerful cards like Elspeth’s chronicle — they’d never resolve it through 2-mana counterspells.
3feri and Narset are pretty busted though. They’d make it into old control decks. (That’s easy to say since they’re playable in Vintage.)
Control decks have never really changed in design. They stack the most versatile possible answers along with as much card advantage as they can afford to play, and then finish with the bare minimum number of win conditions. If their answers are good enough to match the best threats they’ll be top tier, if not they won’t. Right now, UW is pretty good.
Are you saying control decks were worse back then because they merely ran eight unconditional 2-mana counterspells, a 4-mana Agent of Treachery, a 4-mana Wrath, and a 1-mana unconditional exiling removal? 'cause I'm not really sure what to say to that.
The creature finishers in modern control decks are definitely better, but that's about it.
I'm saying that as a percentage of deck, the amount of "nope" you inflicted upon your opponent was lesser, and the options for "nope" were more limited, though sometimes more powerful individually. (And I'm not sure Control is a 4 mana Agent; Agent is body + steal not subject to a disenchant plus a draw-three effect that I can't imagine ever happens, in exchange for higher price.)
Like, is Time Wipe strictly worse than Wrath of God? 2WW vs 2WWU, but Time Wipe bounces your dude first. How's Kaya's Wrath compare to either? I'll admit I'm not considering the multicolor aspect, since there's so many more types of land it feels pretty easy to do a multicolor deck, so if that's inaccurate, I'll own up no problem.
But I mean come on, I'm not saying "No no, UU to counter a spell then get that spell's CMC as colorless mana in your next main phase is TOTES less powerful than a 1UU counter". (Though I'm legitimately unsure about how to compare Mana Drain to a UUGG unconditional counter that's also a 3/2 creature.)
Edit: Though look, I'm pretty tired right now, and I definitely do not want to get into a Thing about what may be the results of decades-old recall and likely a bunch of subjectivity, so I am willing to concede in general.
Kaya's Wrath is better than Time Wipe, because Shepard of the Herd + Kaya's is the same mana, whilst being more versatile and not really costing a card (Adventure is broken) and gaining life
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
If you just wanna fuck around with mardu hushbringer kroxa you can play a cheaper list just fine.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Yeah.
The three big cards that make the deck work are Hushbringer, Clackbridge, and Kroxa. This version uses a lot of removal and giants so that the boardwipe doesn't hit most of my big threats. Shadowspear is mainly there to deal with gods and hexproof, revival lets me bring back Hushbringer/Kroxa as needed.
I would definitely invest in the murderous riders though, any deck with black is gonna be running them for the near future.
I have a cheaper Orzhov Hushbringer deck I can post if you want.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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jakobaggerLO THY DREAD EMPIRE CHAOS IS RESTOREDRegistered Userregular
Neat, I haven't been following the championship (well, barely) but I guess the guy I bet on won and I got 4 random rares and 80 gems
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
It’s easy to get hung up on the legends (Finkel and Budde) when talking about the GOAT magic player, but PVDDR’s gotta be in the running at this point.
KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
Playing limited formats with a set I know nothing about is really fun at times. In this case, Guilds of Ravnica draft. I only started playing MtG again a few weeks ago, around when Theros launched, so once I did all the Arena basics it's mostly been Theros stuff. I haven't really looked at any other recent sets at all.
Sometimes it's a bit of a bummer, like thinking that anti-enchantment cards might be as useful as they are for Theros events and discovering that no, no they usually are not.
Other times though, there are some pleasant surprises. Like opting for a R/U deck just because of the planeswalker in my first pack and then finding out that yes, Quasiduplicate on Beamsplitter Mage really is as cool as I'd hoped with another creature out.
It’s easy to get hung up on the legends (Finkel and Budde) when talking about the GOAT magic player, but PVDDR’s gotta be in the running at this point.
Yeah this Worlds win cemented a Top 3 All-Time Players that was merely "he's in the conversation" (along with others like Nassif — who was also within reach last weekend — and LSV) before. Now the only argument is actual positioning. Growing up in Brazil didn't do PV a lot of favors in the early part of his career and he had to deal with a vastly different meta thanks to the rise of internet information sharing (also larger PT attendance numbers IIRC) so I think those handicaps might give him an edge? Budde has an absurd number of actual wins under his belt, though.
I guess I’m just not sure what you mean when you talk about “percentage of nope”, and of course it’s also tricky because neither of us know what deck you’re exactly talking about. The era of playing Counterspell and Mana Drain was also the era of Power 9 (restricted, at least) and the control deck was The Deck, which I’m sure you don’t deny would make mincemeat out of any modern deck. Spells in that era were so much cheaper and more efficient that it doesn’t matter that a modern deck can play powerful cards like Elspeth’s chronicle — they’d never resolve it through 2-mana counterspells.
3feri and Narset are pretty busted though. They’d make it into old control decks. (That’s easy to say since they’re playable in Vintage.)
Control decks have never really changed in design. They stack the most versatile possible answers along with as much card advantage as they can afford to play, and then finish with the bare minimum number of win conditions. If their answers are good enough to match the best threats they’ll be top tier, if not they won’t. Right now, UW is pretty good.
I think it's mostly a feeling that every card does something, sometimes many things. You may not have 4/8 universal answers in blue, but you have a wider variety of ability/options per card, such that more cards available to you are potential answers to a thing your opponent does, even if each is individually (and unarguably) less potent than your power 9, etc. Instead of fishing for 4/60 cards of white targeted removal (plows) you may have 12/60 (this is a total random number ex recto) white options that in some manner crap on what your opponent just planned, though none of them are obviously a 1-mana exile.
I don't know if dual lands are a good example; back then, you had 4 no-drawback dual lands in a 2-color deck; now you can have anywhere between 4-12. Each of the modern lands have a cost or aren't as good as the OG duals, but damn I don't think I'd go back.
Like I said, this could be (and probably is) a lot subjective. Cards feel a lot more flexible, even if none of them alone stacks up to older cards, and I think that's just due to increased design space over time.
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KetarCome on upstairswe're having a partyRegistered Userregular
I guess I’m just not sure what you mean when you talk about “percentage of nope”, and of course it’s also tricky because neither of us know what deck you’re exactly talking about. The era of playing Counterspell and Mana Drain was also the era of Power 9 (restricted, at least) and the control deck was The Deck, which I’m sure you don’t deny would make mincemeat out of any modern deck. Spells in that era were so much cheaper and more efficient that it doesn’t matter that a modern deck can play powerful cards like Elspeth’s chronicle — they’d never resolve it through 2-mana counterspells.
3feri and Narset are pretty busted though. They’d make it into old control decks. (That’s easy to say since they’re playable in Vintage.)
Control decks have never really changed in design. They stack the most versatile possible answers along with as much card advantage as they can afford to play, and then finish with the bare minimum number of win conditions. If their answers are good enough to match the best threats they’ll be top tier, if not they won’t. Right now, UW is pretty good.
I think it's mostly a feeling that every card does something, sometimes many things. You may not have 4/8 universal answers in blue, but you have a wider variety of ability/options per card, such that more cards available to you are potential answers to a thing your opponent does, even if each is individually (and unarguably) less potent than your power 9, etc. Instead of fishing for 4/60 cards of white targeted removal (plows) you may have 12/60 (this is a total random number ex recto) white options that in some manner crap on what your opponent just planned, though none of them are obviously a 1-mana exile.
I don't know if dual lands are a good example; back then, you had 4 no-drawback dual lands in a 2-color deck; now you can have anywhere between 4-12. Each of the modern lands have a cost or aren't as good as the OG duals, but damn I don't think I'd go back.
Like I said, this could be (and probably is) a lot subjective. Cards feel a lot more flexible, even if none of them alone stacks up to older cards, and I think that's just due to increased design space over time.
I can't agree with you there. For much of a typical game I'd rather have a dual that comes in untapped than something that comes in tapped but lets me scry 1 or gain 1 life or whatever, even if there would be more dual color options with those.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I guess I’m just not sure what you mean when you talk about “percentage of nope”, and of course it’s also tricky because neither of us know what deck you’re exactly talking about. The era of playing Counterspell and Mana Drain was also the era of Power 9 (restricted, at least) and the control deck was The Deck, which I’m sure you don’t deny would make mincemeat out of any modern deck. Spells in that era were so much cheaper and more efficient that it doesn’t matter that a modern deck can play powerful cards like Elspeth’s chronicle — they’d never resolve it through 2-mana counterspells.
3feri and Narset are pretty busted though. They’d make it into old control decks. (That’s easy to say since they’re playable in Vintage.)
Control decks have never really changed in design. They stack the most versatile possible answers along with as much card advantage as they can afford to play, and then finish with the bare minimum number of win conditions. If their answers are good enough to match the best threats they’ll be top tier, if not they won’t. Right now, UW is pretty good.
I think it's mostly a feeling that every card does something, sometimes many things. You may not have 4/8 universal answers in blue, but you have a wider variety of ability/options per card, such that more cards available to you are potential answers to a thing your opponent does, even if each is individually (and unarguably) less potent than your power 9, etc. Instead of fishing for 4/60 cards of white targeted removal (plows) you may have 12/60 (this is a total random number ex recto) white options that in some manner crap on what your opponent just planned, though none of them are obviously a 1-mana exile.
I don't know if dual lands are a good example; back then, you had 4 no-drawback dual lands in a 2-color deck; now you can have anywhere between 4-12. Each of the modern lands have a cost or aren't as good as the OG duals, but damn I don't think I'd go back.
Like I said, this could be (and probably is) a lot subjective. Cards feel a lot more flexible, even if none of them alone stacks up to older cards, and I think that's just due to increased design space over time.
I can't agree with you there. For much of a typical game I'd rather have a dual that comes in untapped than something that comes in tapped but lets me scry 1 or gain 1 life or whatever, even if there would be more dual color options with those.
The OG duals are also basic lands.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I guess I’m just not sure what you mean when you talk about “percentage of nope”, and of course it’s also tricky because neither of us know what deck you’re exactly talking about. The era of playing Counterspell and Mana Drain was also the era of Power 9 (restricted, at least) and the control deck was The Deck, which I’m sure you don’t deny would make mincemeat out of any modern deck. Spells in that era were so much cheaper and more efficient that it doesn’t matter that a modern deck can play powerful cards like Elspeth’s chronicle — they’d never resolve it through 2-mana counterspells.
3feri and Narset are pretty busted though. They’d make it into old control decks. (That’s easy to say since they’re playable in Vintage.)
Control decks have never really changed in design. They stack the most versatile possible answers along with as much card advantage as they can afford to play, and then finish with the bare minimum number of win conditions. If their answers are good enough to match the best threats they’ll be top tier, if not they won’t. Right now, UW is pretty good.
I think it's mostly a feeling that every card does something, sometimes many things. You may not have 4/8 universal answers in blue, but you have a wider variety of ability/options per card, such that more cards available to you are potential answers to a thing your opponent does, even if each is individually (and unarguably) less potent than your power 9, etc. Instead of fishing for 4/60 cards of white targeted removal (plows) you may have 12/60 (this is a total random number ex recto) white options that in some manner crap on what your opponent just planned, though none of them are obviously a 1-mana exile.
I don't know if dual lands are a good example; back then, you had 4 no-drawback dual lands in a 2-color deck; now you can have anywhere between 4-12. Each of the modern lands have a cost or aren't as good as the OG duals, but damn I don't think I'd go back.
Like I said, this could be (and probably is) a lot subjective. Cards feel a lot more flexible, even if none of them alone stacks up to older cards, and I think that's just due to increased design space over time.
I can't agree with you there. For much of a typical game I'd rather have a dual that comes in untapped than something that comes in tapped but lets me scry 1 or gain 1 life or whatever, even if there would be more dual color options with those.
You'd rather have only 4 total duals vs > 4? I just think about how much time I spent not drawing the blasted things with a hand full of the wrong color.
No argument the OGs were better card for card, though, and untapped >> tapped. For sure, I'd rather have them at any given time, but thinking in terms of deck constitution, I just feel like the increased availability outweighs the individual inferiority.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I guess I’m just not sure what you mean when you talk about “percentage of nope”, and of course it’s also tricky because neither of us know what deck you’re exactly talking about. The era of playing Counterspell and Mana Drain was also the era of Power 9 (restricted, at least) and the control deck was The Deck, which I’m sure you don’t deny would make mincemeat out of any modern deck. Spells in that era were so much cheaper and more efficient that it doesn’t matter that a modern deck can play powerful cards like Elspeth’s chronicle — they’d never resolve it through 2-mana counterspells.
3feri and Narset are pretty busted though. They’d make it into old control decks. (That’s easy to say since they’re playable in Vintage.)
Control decks have never really changed in design. They stack the most versatile possible answers along with as much card advantage as they can afford to play, and then finish with the bare minimum number of win conditions. If their answers are good enough to match the best threats they’ll be top tier, if not they won’t. Right now, UW is pretty good.
I think it's mostly a feeling that every card does something, sometimes many things. You may not have 4/8 universal answers in blue, but you have a wider variety of ability/options per card, such that more cards available to you are potential answers to a thing your opponent does, even if each is individually (and unarguably) less potent than your power 9, etc. Instead of fishing for 4/60 cards of white targeted removal (plows) you may have 12/60 (this is a total random number ex recto) white options that in some manner crap on what your opponent just planned, though none of them are obviously a 1-mana exile.
I don't know if dual lands are a good example; back then, you had 4 no-drawback dual lands in a 2-color deck; now you can have anywhere between 4-12. Each of the modern lands have a cost or aren't as good as the OG duals, but damn I don't think I'd go back.
Like I said, this could be (and probably is) a lot subjective. Cards feel a lot more flexible, even if none of them alone stacks up to older cards, and I think that's just due to increased design space over time.
I can't agree with you there. For much of a typical game I'd rather have a dual that comes in untapped than something that comes in tapped but lets me scry 1 or gain 1 life or whatever, even if there would be more dual color options with those.
You'd rather have only 4 total duals vs > 4? I just think about how much time I spent not drawing the blasted things with a hand full of the wrong color.
No argument the OGs were better card for card, though, and untapped >> tapped. For sure, I'd rather have them at any given time, but thinking in terms of deck constitution, I just feel like the increased availability outweighs the individual inferiority.
Yeah but you could search up the OGs with evolving wilds.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
I guess I’m just not sure what you mean when you talk about “percentage of nope”, and of course it’s also tricky because neither of us know what deck you’re exactly talking about. The era of playing Counterspell and Mana Drain was also the era of Power 9 (restricted, at least) and the control deck was The Deck, which I’m sure you don’t deny would make mincemeat out of any modern deck. Spells in that era were so much cheaper and more efficient that it doesn’t matter that a modern deck can play powerful cards like Elspeth’s chronicle — they’d never resolve it through 2-mana counterspells.
3feri and Narset are pretty busted though. They’d make it into old control decks. (That’s easy to say since they’re playable in Vintage.)
Control decks have never really changed in design. They stack the most versatile possible answers along with as much card advantage as they can afford to play, and then finish with the bare minimum number of win conditions. If their answers are good enough to match the best threats they’ll be top tier, if not they won’t. Right now, UW is pretty good.
I think it's mostly a feeling that every card does something, sometimes many things. You may not have 4/8 universal answers in blue, but you have a wider variety of ability/options per card, such that more cards available to you are potential answers to a thing your opponent does, even if each is individually (and unarguably) less potent than your power 9, etc. Instead of fishing for 4/60 cards of white targeted removal (plows) you may have 12/60 (this is a total random number ex recto) white options that in some manner crap on what your opponent just planned, though none of them are obviously a 1-mana exile.
I don't know if dual lands are a good example; back then, you had 4 no-drawback dual lands in a 2-color deck; now you can have anywhere between 4-12. Each of the modern lands have a cost or aren't as good as the OG duals, but damn I don't think I'd go back.
Like I said, this could be (and probably is) a lot subjective. Cards feel a lot more flexible, even if none of them alone stacks up to older cards, and I think that's just due to increased design space over time.
I can't agree with you there. For much of a typical game I'd rather have a dual that comes in untapped than something that comes in tapped but lets me scry 1 or gain 1 life or whatever, even if there would be more dual color options with those.
The OG duals are also basic lands.
They have the basic land types but they themselves aren't basic. You can't get them with Fabled Passage for example.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I guess I’m just not sure what you mean when you talk about “percentage of nope”, and of course it’s also tricky because neither of us know what deck you’re exactly talking about. The era of playing Counterspell and Mana Drain was also the era of Power 9 (restricted, at least) and the control deck was The Deck, which I’m sure you don’t deny would make mincemeat out of any modern deck. Spells in that era were so much cheaper and more efficient that it doesn’t matter that a modern deck can play powerful cards like Elspeth’s chronicle — they’d never resolve it through 2-mana counterspells.
3feri and Narset are pretty busted though. They’d make it into old control decks. (That’s easy to say since they’re playable in Vintage.)
Control decks have never really changed in design. They stack the most versatile possible answers along with as much card advantage as they can afford to play, and then finish with the bare minimum number of win conditions. If their answers are good enough to match the best threats they’ll be top tier, if not they won’t. Right now, UW is pretty good.
I think it's mostly a feeling that every card does something, sometimes many things. You may not have 4/8 universal answers in blue, but you have a wider variety of ability/options per card, such that more cards available to you are potential answers to a thing your opponent does, even if each is individually (and unarguably) less potent than your power 9, etc. Instead of fishing for 4/60 cards of white targeted removal (plows) you may have 12/60 (this is a total random number ex recto) white options that in some manner crap on what your opponent just planned, though none of them are obviously a 1-mana exile.
I don't know if dual lands are a good example; back then, you had 4 no-drawback dual lands in a 2-color deck; now you can have anywhere between 4-12. Each of the modern lands have a cost or aren't as good as the OG duals, but damn I don't think I'd go back.
Like I said, this could be (and probably is) a lot subjective. Cards feel a lot more flexible, even if none of them alone stacks up to older cards, and I think that's just due to increased design space over time.
I can't agree with you there. For much of a typical game I'd rather have a dual that comes in untapped than something that comes in tapped but lets me scry 1 or gain 1 life or whatever, even if there would be more dual color options with those.
The OG duals are also basic lands.
They have the basic land types but they themselves aren't basic. You can't get them with Fabled Passage for example.
Well then I was cheated by some guys in the fifth grade.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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Just recently I lost late game as Azorious control to mono white life gain and another in late game to that gosh darn abzan enchantress deck.
I literally had used all my sweepers and got out 2 dream trawlers against the monowhite. But they managed to rebuild and once they rebuilt I couldn't do anything without sweepers.
I typically use shocks to snipe early monsters or as an opener for Skewer the Critics.
I just started playing Arena a couple weeks ago, been playing Magic in general off-and-on since Ice Age.
Not spending any money - this is my cheap burn deck. I've been doing alright.
Critical Failures - Havenhold Campaign • August St. Cloud (Human Ranger)
Well I got invited to join the "Creator Program" which lets me do on stream challenges to earn rewards for both my account and ones I can give out to community folks. So that's rad! Gonna have to dedicate a stream evening to magic each week so I can shower everyone in ICRs.
Ran into a dimir deck last night that was probably 30 removal, counter, or board wipe cards. Never actually played anything on the board. Might have been the least fun Ive ever had in this game.
I have a deck like that that I made solely for the "kill # creatures" daily thing.
It doesn't even have any actual wincons other than murderous rider attacking 10 times.
I imagine it is lame to play against but hey, I didn't make that challenge exist.
Its possible thats whats going on but Im pretty sure stuff like Cry of the Carnarium doesnt count.
Some people are just hateful creatures!
The ones that definitely get me are the folks that play no-fun-allowed jank decks.
Because they are only playing against other jank and trying to stop those poor folks from enjoying their own jank.
That's just evil.
I hate that quest so much. It's the only one dependent on your opponent's deck. If they're running your Dimir deck? Welp, no quest progress for me I guess.
If I get stuck with it I'll usually keep it around until I can draft.
Yea and there's so many times where a play that would get you a chunk of progress ends in a concede.
You see that big juicy wipe opportunity against creature deck? Concede before it resolves.
You swing out with a big attack that requires them to make bad blocks and get you kills? Concede.
It just feels so bad. And thus why i made that deck. It has a bunch of low costs single target removal so I can always get a few off real quickly while also being so incredibly non threatening that people continue to play their turns out and I just concede to anything that doesn't look to have creatures
Yes I reroll 1 500 gold quest every time. But I will never use a reroll on a 750.
And sometimes one of the color combos for a 500 gold quest is one that I don't have anything useful for I'd rather reroll one of those.
I don't know, man. Back then, I think I ran 8 UU counters, a few conditional/limited counters (Since they weren't generally very good), then some stuff like Control Magic, then in W had Wrath/Geddon, 4 Plowshares, then... A Balance or three? White just didn't have the removal tools it does now, nor the control tools, and Blue had much more of a control/counter identity, such that there was about one (1) blue damage spell, and it was pulled out of print after Unlimited. Color identity seems to be much less of a thing, with a concomitant ability to have way the hell more of every kind of tool in a given color combo, and it goes along with what, decades of power creep?
Like, in what modern deck would a Serra Angel be your win condition? A Mahamoti Djinn? A 5/6 flier for 4UU was fuckin' great, 'cause it was BLUE oh my god.
The creature finishers in modern control decks are definitely better, but that's about it.
the other 4-mana wrath
I think you're fucked, mate.
I'm saying that as a percentage of deck, the amount of "nope" you inflicted upon your opponent was lesser, and the options for "nope" were more limited, though sometimes more powerful individually. (And I'm not sure Control is a 4 mana Agent; Agent is body + steal not subject to a disenchant plus a draw-three effect that I can't imagine ever happens, in exchange for higher price.)
Like, is Time Wipe strictly worse than Wrath of God? 2WW vs 2WWU, but Time Wipe bounces your dude first. How's Kaya's Wrath compare to either? I'll admit I'm not considering the multicolor aspect, since there's so many more types of land it feels pretty easy to do a multicolor deck, so if that's inaccurate, I'll own up no problem.
But I mean come on, I'm not saying "No no, UU to counter a spell then get that spell's CMC as colorless mana in your next main phase is TOTES less powerful than a 1UU counter". (Though I'm legitimately unsure about how to compare Mana Drain to a UUGG unconditional counter that's also a 3/2 creature.)
Edit: Though look, I'm pretty tired right now, and I definitely do not want to get into a Thing about what may be the results of decades-old recall and likely a bunch of subjectivity, so I am willing to concede in general.
3feri and Narset are pretty busted though. They’d make it into old control decks. (That’s easy to say since they’re playable in Vintage.)
Control decks have never really changed in design. They stack the most versatile possible answers along with as much card advantage as they can afford to play, and then finish with the bare minimum number of win conditions. If their answers are good enough to match the best threats they’ll be top tier, if not they won’t. Right now, UW is pretty good.
Kaya's Wrath is better than Time Wipe, because Shepard of the Herd + Kaya's is the same mana, whilst being more versatile and not really costing a card (Adventure is broken) and gaining life
i don't ge-
damn that's ice cold, munkus.
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Then they thank you very much for your hushbringer.
You got a deck list for this? I'd like to revisit Mardu-screw-you.
Steam ID: Obos Vent: Obos
3 Shadowspear (THB) 236
4 Sacred Foundry (GRN) 254
4 Revival // Revenge (RNA) 228
3 Realm-Cloaked Giant (ELD) 26
3 Plains (THB) 279
4 Murderous Rider (ELD) 97
2 Mountain (THB) 285
3 Swamp (THB) 283
4 Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger (THB) 221
4 Hushbringer (ELD) 18
4 Godless Shrine (RNA) 248
4 Fabled Passage (ELD) 244
4 Bonecrusher Giant (ELD) 115
4 Blood Crypt (RNA) 245
2 Bedevil (RNA) 157
4 Clackbridge Troll (ELD) 84
The three big cards that make the deck work are Hushbringer, Clackbridge, and Kroxa. This version uses a lot of removal and giants so that the boardwipe doesn't hit most of my big threats. Shadowspear is mainly there to deal with gods and hexproof, revival lets me bring back Hushbringer/Kroxa as needed.
I would definitely invest in the murderous riders though, any deck with black is gonna be running them for the near future.
I have a cheaper Orzhov Hushbringer deck I can post if you want.
Happy for Da Rosa too, he seems like a cool dude.
Sometimes it's a bit of a bummer, like thinking that anti-enchantment cards might be as useful as they are for Theros events and discovering that no, no they usually are not.
Other times though, there are some pleasant surprises. Like opting for a R/U deck just because of the planeswalker in my first pack and then finding out that yes, Quasiduplicate on Beamsplitter Mage really is as cool as I'd hoped with another creature out.
Yeah this Worlds win cemented a Top 3 All-Time Players that was merely "he's in the conversation" (along with others like Nassif — who was also within reach last weekend — and LSV) before. Now the only argument is actual positioning. Growing up in Brazil didn't do PV a lot of favors in the early part of his career and he had to deal with a vastly different meta thanks to the rise of internet information sharing (also larger PT attendance numbers IIRC) so I think those handicaps might give him an edge? Budde has an absurd number of actual wins under his belt, though.
I think it's mostly a feeling that every card does something, sometimes many things. You may not have 4/8 universal answers in blue, but you have a wider variety of ability/options per card, such that more cards available to you are potential answers to a thing your opponent does, even if each is individually (and unarguably) less potent than your power 9, etc. Instead of fishing for 4/60 cards of white targeted removal (plows) you may have 12/60 (this is a total random number ex recto) white options that in some manner crap on what your opponent just planned, though none of them are obviously a 1-mana exile.
I don't know if dual lands are a good example; back then, you had 4 no-drawback dual lands in a 2-color deck; now you can have anywhere between 4-12. Each of the modern lands have a cost or aren't as good as the OG duals, but damn I don't think I'd go back.
Like I said, this could be (and probably is) a lot subjective. Cards feel a lot more flexible, even if none of them alone stacks up to older cards, and I think that's just due to increased design space over time.
I can't agree with you there. For much of a typical game I'd rather have a dual that comes in untapped than something that comes in tapped but lets me scry 1 or gain 1 life or whatever, even if there would be more dual color options with those.
The OG duals are also basic lands.
You'd rather have only 4 total duals vs > 4? I just think about how much time I spent not drawing the blasted things with a hand full of the wrong color.
No argument the OGs were better card for card, though, and untapped >> tapped. For sure, I'd rather have them at any given time, but thinking in terms of deck constitution, I just feel like the increased availability outweighs the individual inferiority.
Yeah but you could search up the OGs with evolving wilds.
They have the basic land types but they themselves aren't basic. You can't get them with Fabled Passage for example.
Well then I was cheated by some guys in the fifth grade.