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American Carnage - 31 Killed Between Mass Shootings in El Paso, Texas and Dayton, Ohio

enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
edited August 5 in Debate and/or Discourse
I figure this is a big enough deal to get its own thread.

What we know so far:

Late in the morning yesterday in El Paso, a 21 year old white male motivated by white supremacy, fueled by the hate site 8chan, and echoing the view points of Fox News and Donald Trump, opened fire at a Wal-Mart in El Paso, explicitly aiming to kill Hispanic Americans. 20 people have died as a result with dozens more wounded. Some of those injuries were lift threatening as of yesterday evening but it seems that number has not increased. Weapon was an AK-47, he drove 9 hours to get to El Paso because it's a border town with more Hispanics. This suspect has been arrested (without incident). Texas DA will unsurprisingly seek the death penalty.

Early this morning in Dayton, Ohio, a 24 year old white male with currently unknown motivations (but...guess) entered a bar and opened fire. Police responded within a minute and the shooter was killed, but 9 people had been killed and 27 injured in the minute he was firing. He was wearing body armor and the weapon was a .223 caliber high capacity rifle, which suggests an AR-15 but police haven't confirmed that yet.

There were also 7 wounded in a park in Chicago in a drive by around the same time as the Dayton shooting. Obvious guess is a gang thing, but no idea and it won't get nearly as much coverage.

Most of your presidential candidates have condemned the El Paso shooting for what it is, white nationalism, and some of them linked it directly to the president's rhetoric. Most passionately, Beto O'Rourke, an El Paso resident:



Several Democratic Senators, such as Sherrod Brown and Bernie Sanders are demanding McConnell end the August recess to pass the criminal background check bill the House passed five months ago.

The GOP, as usual, is offering thoughts and prayers and maybe, if we're lucky, using the mental health dodge. If we're less lucky, they're mostly blaming video games. Some non-elected conservative figures have finally decided white supremacist terrorism is a problem, but they're mostly in the non-influential Never Trump group. Jeb Bush's son is the closest thing to an actual Republican figure I've seen express this sentiment.

The president is still golfing and excited about MMA fights.

Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
Warren 2020
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  • ScooterScooter Registered User regular
    While the Ohio motivations don't seem clear yet, we did just have the Garlic festival shooting last week, also by a white supremacist. Pretty sure anyone that doesn't see white supremacy as the number one terrorist threat to this country at this point is either just completely in denial, or is actively trying to give them cover.

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  • mrpakumrpaku Registered User regular
    My wife told me she read a lot of the injured in El Paso aren't seeking treatment because their immigration status makes them worried they'll be kicked out of the country, which makes me completely sick to my soul and feels like it was an intentional part of the wound made

    Dan Patrick immediately addressing this by going "has it been long enough to bring back video games as a scapegoat" made me want to turn around and go right back to bed (or scream)

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    mrpaku wrote: »
    My wife told me she read a lot of the injured in El Paso aren't seeking treatment because their immigration status makes them worried they'll be kicked out of the country, which makes me completely sick to my soul and feels like it was an intentional part of the wound made

    Dan Patrick immediately addressing this by going "has it been long enough to bring back video games as a scapegoat" made me want to turn around and go right back to bed (or scream)

    CBP has said they won't be enforcing things in El Paso hospitals, but nobody believes them.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Yeah, first thing I heard was how ICE was investigating in the area like 7 hours later, but that's of course internet rumor. Which, of course, shows why all THAT is part of this issue.

    This is horrifying, and that's before I found out about the Dayton incident. Anecdotally, my mom was tying this straight to Trump and to that hatred, to the point where she cannot call herself a Republican anymore (and dad refused to call himself a Republican). For context, my mom is nearing 70, is the sister of one of the largest gun dealers in the county, grew up selling guns, and was a championship-winning trap shooter when she was a kid. She was calling for a magazine/clip limit of 5 bullets (which is like.. holy shit coming from someone as staunchly pro-gun as her). She was begging for someone to do something, while recognizing that taking away people's guns would be impossible.

    I know there's a lot of potential tangents in that paragraph that could lead this thread to bad places. I'd ask you don't. I'm just... horrified. My mom is terrified any time she goes out into public spaces or we go to meet-ups. Hell, I'm more and more fearful each day as I work at a university. People are dying, indiscriminately, and yet things like YouTube are promoting videos of the carnage.

    We're a profoundly fucked up country, and I fear that cutting off the head will just cause the body to slink into the shadows again. I don't want us going all ultra-conservative, stripping away our rights.. but... argh. I don't want to feel helpless, protected only by the color of my skin and the fact that I don't socialize much.

    If nothing else, I really hope someone revokes 8chan's domain.

    *sigh* Sorry... I know this is rambling.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    mrpaku wrote: »
    My wife told me she read a lot of the injured in El Paso aren't seeking treatment because their immigration status makes them worried they'll be kicked out of the country, which makes me completely sick to my soul and feels like it was an intentional part of the wound made

    Dan Patrick immediately addressing this by going "has it been long enough to bring back video games as a scapegoat" made me want to turn around and go right back to bed (or scream)

    CBP has said they won't be enforcing things in El Paso hospitals, but nobody believes them.

    It's almost like law enforcement agencies establishing trust with their local communities is important.

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  • SolarSolar Registered User regular
    My heart goes out to the victims and their friends, families, communities etc, absolutely awful news, dreadful

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    At least one of the shooters has been pretty not-shy about saying Trump is his guy and that's why he did all this, but the media is pretending like they don't know the reason why and are doing the typical "gee is it video games?" thing.

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  • syndalissyndalis Getting Classy On the WallRegistered User, Loves Apple Products regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    At least one of the shooters has been pretty not-shy about saying Trump is his guy and that's why he did all this, but the media is pretending like they don't know the reason why and are doing the typical "gee is it video games?" thing.

    I am torn on that - I am glad they are not reading his screed / essay on the air or allowing his message to be tied to his actions. Fuck him getting a second of fame and a platform in exchange for what he did.

    But at the same time, people need to understand what these slogans and words and votes lead to. There are more and more people who feel legitimized because we have accepted this level of bigotry at the very top.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
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  • That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    It's shit like this that makes me want to leave the house even less. I'm fucking scared to death seeing what's happening in this country.

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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    It's shit like this that makes me want to leave the house even less. I'm fucking scared to death seeing what's happening in this country.
    I'm about to ditch my mustache. Apparently it makes me look more like my heritage (I am very pale skinned) and I don't need to be a target because of it.

    Nobody likes me but that's okay. I'm used to it.
  • NyysjanNyysjan FinlandRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    It's shit like this that makes me want to leave the house even less. I'm fucking scared to death seeing what's happening in this country.
    I'm about to ditch my mustache. Apparently it makes me look more like my heritage (I am very pale skinned) and I don't need to be a target because of it.
    This is such a depressing, and probably reasonable, statement.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Dayton shooter apparently killed his sister and her boyfriend first.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
    Warren 2020
  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    Dayton shooter apparently killed his sister and her boyfriend first.

    And of course that could feed directly into EITHER likely cause.... depending on the race of the boyfriend.

    Jragghen on
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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    For anyone who doesn't believe in stochastic terrorism - this is what stochastic terrorism looks like.

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  • GaddezGaddez Registered User regular
    I know I'm a broken record with this, but shit like this keeps bringing to mind the question of why the general populace in the US can access this sort of firepower in the first place; there is no reasonable the excuse for why private citizens should have access to the AK47.

    And Fuck trump for fostering an environment where this shit is happening multiple times a week.

    Richy wrote: »
    But I think the resistance I’m getting more has to do with “rawr! Loklar said it! Rage!” than anything else.

    No, it has to do with the fact that you're done nothing but throw lies, blatant flasehoods, and downright dumb statements at us so far.
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  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    We seem to be rounding a corner from where a lot of these things had a political though line to where both the message and the victims are becoming increasingly explicit.

    El Paso was a fucking pogrom.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    For anyone who doesn't believe in stochastic terrorism - this is what stochastic terrorism looks like.

    Not to be that guy, but what does stochastic mean? Sorry.

    (and sorry to That_Guy).

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  • JragghenJragghen Registered User regular
    Random, effectively.

    Stochastic Terrorism was defined as "the use of mass communications to incite random actors to carry out violent or terrorist acts that are statistically predictable but individually unpredictable."

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Kipling217 wrote: »
    For anyone who doesn't believe in stochastic terrorism - this is what stochastic terrorism looks like.

    Not to be that guy, but what does stochastic mean? Sorry.

    (and sorry to That_Guy).
    randomly determined; having a random probability distribution or pattern that may be analyzed statistically but may not be predicted precisely.

    In this context, we're talking about terrorism that is "random" in that any one incident cannot be predicted, but can be seen as a clear trend when analyzed in the context of the growth of hate speech and bigotry.

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  • klemmingklemming Registered User regular
    Police responded within a minute and the shooter was killed, but 9 people had been killed and 27 injured in the minute he was firing.
    I really hope this point is hammered home for all the people using the 'good guy with a gun' defence.
    This guy was stopped by a 'good guy with a gun' pretty much as quickly as you could reasonably expect, and he still managed to shoot 36 people before they could stop him.

    I want these people to be asked if this was their 'ideal' mass-shooting, because it's not going to get much better.

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Also, the El Paso shooter apparently linked to and was inspired by the manifesto of the Christchurch shooter:



    Talia Lavin is an independent journalist.

    It's an incestuous confluence of hate.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    Dayton shooter apparently killed his sister and her boyfriend first.

    And of course that could feed directly into EITHER likely cause.... depending on the race of the boyfriend.

    Domestic Violence is one of the primary indicators that someone will use violence later in other ways.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Nyysjan wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    That_Guy wrote: »
    It's shit like this that makes me want to leave the house even less. I'm fucking scared to death seeing what's happening in this country.
    I'm about to ditch my mustache. Apparently it makes me look more like my heritage (I am very pale skinned) and I don't need to be a target because of it.
    This is such a depressing, and probably reasonable, statement.

    It reminds me of the guy who had the cops stop him, and refused to do anything but put his hands out the window, despite orders to turn the car off. People know what they need to do to survive, even if it shouldn't be the consideration

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    "We need guns to rebel against tyranny." ->"Race mixing is tyranny!" -> Commits terrorism against minorities and minority allies.

    }
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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Jephery wrote: »
    "We need guns to rebel against tyranny." ->"Race mixing is tyranny!" -> Commits terrorism against minorities and minority allies.
    They're not even going after organized humanitarian groups or anything. They're just murdering people out and about on their daily lives.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Schumer's also calling for an end to the recess, so that's the official Democratic position.

    There's a pro forma session on Tuesday they could grandstand during if Moscow Mitch McConnell refuses I think.

    @moniker is the only one of us who I think actually understands Senate rules though.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • HenroidHenroid Radio Demon Internet HellRegistered User regular
    Remind me why people like Neil deGrasse Tyson again?
    In the past 48hrs, the USA horrifically lost 34 people to mass shootings.

    On average, across any 48hrs, we also lose…

    500 to Medical errors
    300 to the Flu
    250 to Suicide
    200 to Car Accidents
    40 to Homicide via Handgun

    Often our emotions respond more to spectacle than to data.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again - this guy is a fucking asshole.

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  • JepheryJephery Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    Yeah the difference is that accepting domestic terrorism is accepting that the US is a failed state that can no longer enforce its sovereignty.

    Jephery on
    }
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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    I'm trying to see it charitably, but it just looks like whataboutism

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  • TraceTrace GNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam We Registered User regular
    Stick to talking about black holes Neil.

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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Schumer's also calling for an end to the recess, so that's the official Democratic position.

    There's a pro forma session on Tuesday they could grandstand during if Moscow Mitch McConnell refuses I think.

    @moniker is the only one of us who I think actually understands Senate rules though.

    Does the House bill mention DV at all?

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    They can do more than grandstand, technically. There is no official "Pro Forma" Session, the Senate is either in Session or in Recess. They are technically not in Recess so as to prevent the ability of the President to make Recess Appointments, and Dem control of the House makes that decision not up to the Senate. If the House is in Session then so is the Senate. It is currently the "August Recess" mostly just because everybody agreed to go home and not fuck with each other and let whoever drew the Short straw gavel in and gavel out that day. Dems can make it a full proper Session if they want if they can muster a make a Quorum Call to address the 'Stop Mass Shooting Fucking Goddamnit' legislation placed before the Chamber. McConnell can refer it to Committee, and still do a lot to crush it since he's Majority Leader, but the Dems can definitely ruin his day.

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  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    With these two incidents on the same day we again confront the exact same two issues that the US, as a whole, is genuinely unwilling to grapple with for various ideological reasons:

    1) That violent/racist/etc rhetoric and ideas has actual tangible real results and that allowing a platform for the spread of that rhetoric and those ideas creates more of those results.

    2) The having a lot of guns around leads to people using those guns to kill other people.

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  • Jealous DevaJealous Deva Registered User regular
    edited August 4
    syndalis wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    At least one of the shooters has been pretty not-shy about saying Trump is his guy and that's why he did all this, but the media is pretending like they don't know the reason why and are doing the typical "gee is it video games?" thing.

    I am torn on that - I am glad they are not reading his screed / essay on the air or allowing his message to be tied to his actions. Fuck him getting a second of fame and a platform in exchange for what he did.

    But at the same time, people need to understand what these slogans and words and votes lead to. There are more and more people who feel legitimized because we have accepted this level of bigotry at the very top.

    I think it needs to be publicized what is really going on here, and “I dunno must be video games or mental illness or something” isn’t cutting it.

    Does anyone think if two people of middle eastern descent (ignoring the Dayton shooting because that’s not really clear at this point) had shot up some places in a week, they were both known to frequent the same online chat rooms/forums where people posted al-queda/isis/salafist content, and both had posted jihadist slogans an manifestos on facebook we would be hearing a lot of handwringing and whargleblargle about video games and violent culture and untreated mental illness and the like?

    These are terrorist attacks that are being facilitated and encouraged by organized sympathizers.

    Jealous Deva on
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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    syndalis wrote: »
    Henroid wrote: »
    At least one of the shooters has been pretty not-shy about saying Trump is his guy and that's why he did all this, but the media is pretending like they don't know the reason why and are doing the typical "gee is it video games?" thing.

    I am torn on that - I am glad they are not reading his screed / essay on the air or allowing his message to be tied to his actions. Fuck him getting a second of fame and a platform in exchange for what he did.

    But at the same time, people need to understand what these slogans and words and votes lead to. There are more and more people who feel legitimized because we have accepted this level of bigotry at the very top.

    I think it needs to be publicized what is really going on here, and “I dunno must be video games or mental illness or something” isn’t cutting it.

    Does anyone think if two people of middle eastern descent (ignoring the Dayton shooting because that’s not really clear at this point) had shot up some places in a week, they were both known to frequent the same online chat rooms/forums where people posted al-queda/isis/salafist content, and both had posted jihadist slogans an manifestos on facebook we would be hearing a lot of handwringing and whargleblargle about video games and violent culture and untreated mental illness and the like?

    We've shut down a lot of that rhetoric online. Twitter did it. They refuse to do it with white supremacy because any such effort would take out a ton of elected Republicans.

    That's literally the reason.

    Herbert Hoover got 40% of the vote in 1932. Friendly reminder.
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  • Stabbity StyleStabbity Style Warning: Mothership Reporting Richland, WARegistered User regular
    edited August 4
    Trace wrote: »
    Stick to talking about black holes Neil.

    Shut up and dribble?

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  • DacDac Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Remind me why people like Neil deGrasse Tyson again?
    In the past 48hrs, the USA horrifically lost 34 people to mass shootings.

    On average, across any 48hrs, we also lose…

    500 to Medical errors
    300 to the Flu
    250 to Suicide
    200 to Car Accidents
    40 to Homicide via Handgun

    Often our emotions respond more to spectacle than to data.
    I've said it before and I'll say it again - this guy is a fucking asshole.

    Those listed are accidents or mental health issues on an individual level, or are actively fought by legions of medical professionals and data.

    One of these things is perpetrated deliberately human on human, happens all the time, and we don't do ANYTHING to prevent it. That's a big difference, Neil. But more importantly, IT'S NOT A FUCKING COMPETITION, NEIL.

    APPEARING TO DISMISS THE SUFFERING OF THESE PEOPLE AS SPECTACLE IS BAD, NEIL. STOP THAT.

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  • NobeardNobeard North Carolina: Failed StateRegistered User regular
    We saw El Paso coming. Anyone who has been paying attention saw this coming. It's actually been going on for awhile. The turning point where this trend sharply increased was the electoral victory of Donald Trump

    Why White Supremacist Attacks Are on the Rise, Even in Surprising Places
    Our forthcoming analysis of FBI data, done in conjunction with Cal State’s John Reitzel and West Virginia University’s James Nolan, also found that November 2016 was the worst month for hate crime in the U.S. since September 2002, with 758 incidences; the day after the election, Nov. 10, was the worst day since June 2003, with 44 incidences alone. And while there was an initial increase in anti-Muslim hate crimes after the 2015 jihadism-inspired terror attack in San Bernardino, such crimes surged to even higher levels five days later, when Trump said there should be a “total and complete shutdown” of allowing Muslims to enter the United States.
    ...
    Our most recent police data, found a spike in many large U.S. cities around election time 2018 as well. But like the otherwise very peaceful New Zealand, the most notable increases were perhaps surprisingly found in the bluest and most diverse “liberal” cities. New York, Los Angeles, Boston, Philadelphia and Chicago were among the cities that saw November or fourth-quarter spikes in 2018, while San Diego and cities in Texas did not. Indeed, most of the larger American cities saw a decline in hate crimes in the first half of 2018, only to have the trend reversed in the second half, as America experienced a conflictual midterm election with “immigration,” “wall” and “caravan” as key buzzwords. By year’s end, our research found hate crime in 30 large American cities hit a decade high of over 2,000. We also found Ideologically motivated murders by white supremacists increased in 2018 to 17, from 13 in 2017, while violent Salafist Jihadist killings dropped to only one.

    As I made this post, I kept second guessing myself. I have a strong instinct not to politicize tragedy, something I condemn the right for all too often doing. But the facts along with my own eyes and ears cannot be ignored. It is no longer conjecture or opinion that the words and actions of Trump and the elected officials that support him directly lead to murder and terrorism.

    I'm not saying we are going to have an autocratic dystopia, but things keep happening that look like they come from an autocratic dystopia.
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  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Tyson started getting cancelled quite some time ago for the sexual assault allegations and some other stuff.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2019/08/04/three-mass-shootings-this-year-began-with-hateful-screed-chan-its-founder-calls-it-terrorist-refuge-plain-sight/
    “Once again, a terrorist used 8chan to spread his message as he knew people would save it and spread it,” Fredrick Brennan, who founded 8chan in 2013 but stopped working with the site’s owners in December, told The Washington Post. “The board is a receptive audience for domestic terrorists.”
    The site has survived, extremism experts said, in part due to a reluctance from some law-enforcement and intelligence officials to categorize white-supremacist and far-right movements as terrorism threats. The site has for years been shielded by U.S. laws that limit websites’ legal liability for what their users post and has been further protected by an Internet infrastructure that makes it difficult to take sites down.
    It is probably not helpful how many white supremacist law enforcement officials there are.

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