Yeah. If you're dying and you feel it's because your teammates aren't properly protecting you switch to something you feel you can survive with better. Even if your heal output is lowered.
Look at it this way. Some healing is better than no healing.
IMO the entire skillset of being a healer is just how well you survive. Actually performing the heals is easy, anybody can do that. But you dying first is a huge hit to your team, so you need to avoid that at all costs. Much like playing tank, it's all about positioning and making the correct hero picks, and there's a huge amount of depth involved there.
The factor at its most basic level is Time Spent Not Healing, and every other question that plays into that (player death, time spent fending off a dive, repositioning, etc.) may or may not be within a player's control.
Some days it doesn't really matter how well a player can flex healer for survivability when it still means significant time spent not healing, which is why it bugs the fuck out of me when a teammate's first reaction is to swap healers
Learning how to play any hero without feeding is kinda' the name of the game, come to think of it. I only really started to get ok with Tracer when I began really focusing on just staying alive - we all must live to do our work.
Ed: which might be why Moira killstreak cards are so annoying hmmm
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'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
So here's what I see as the current heirarchy of SR advancement:
1: DPS: there's at least 3-4 different OP DPS at this point so wins are as easy as picking your favorite broken character. If you don't pick an OP character, you suck as DPS because the OP characters are blatantly obvious and your basically hosing your team by not taking one. Just don't do dumbass shit like trying to force DF to work against Sym and Torb at the same time.
2. Tank: There are no OP tanks, but good tank play with a decent tank means you can somewhat effect the outcome of the game. Shitty DPS will still fuck your games on a regular basis, though.
3. Support: there are no OP support and you are straight fucked for getting wins because getting both decent tanks AND DPS is completely random. The matchmaker will regularly and actively stack veteran players against you while giving your side outright rookies. Expect to spend a lot of matches pissed off at Doomfist players who spend multiple rounds getting fucked by turrets, then finally switch character in the last thirty seconds of the match.
I've had no issue hanging out around 3k by just playing Orisa and Moira every tank/support game. I actually feel like dps has more depth of options than the other roles do.
DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
I think DPS is far less rigid just by the amount of options you have...but yeah I think in general DPS is the "play whatever you want" class rn.
Tank and Supports you can still do that too but its a bit more rigid.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Yeah, I'm just done with playing support until the DPS nerfs hit. You can be an outright miracle worker with support and it just doesn't matter if you get DPS making shitty picks, and there's plenty of DPS options right now that are way inferior to the current collection of OP DPS. Not to mention that I just do not fucking understand how you can have situations like Doomfist or Genji players getting shredded all match by Symettra and they absolutely fucking refuse to change characters.
At least when I'm playing tank I can pick something that can take advantage of shitty DF/Genji players suiciding into turrets and clear the turrets myself, but support just needs adequate teammates too much for the current balance situation to be enjoyable.
If the scenario is that you're stuck below your real skill and need to climb the ranks, then yeah I can see the frustration of trying to do that as a support. There isn't a lot of one man carry potential, though Zenyatta/Moira allow you to augment your team's DPS somewhat. My advice for pub games regardless of role is just to focus entirely on your own performance, and derive satisfaction from that even when you lose the game. It doesn't accomplish much to be focused on the mistakes your teammates are making, and it's easy to overlook your own mistakes when you're thinking that way.
Yeah one thing to keep in mind is that no matter what it feels like, the enemy's DPS is at the same skill level as yours, so they're making the same bad plays and missing the same easy shots. So instead of focusing on how bad the rest of your team is, it's more effective to think about what you can do, and how you can play better than the enemy's healers, since that might be the actual reason the enemy is winning more fights than you. As always, the one common factor in all of your losses is you, so all you can really do is try to improve your own play no matter the role.
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Honestly I think climbing is as much volume of games as it is skill.
You're gonna have those games...just is what it is.
Oh yeah absolutely. If you really are better than your rank, then you need to play as many games as possible in order to minimize "unwinnable game" variance.
Honestly I think climbing is as much volume of games as it is skill.
You're gonna have those games...just is what it is.
The volume thing is what seriously grinds my gears. The placement matches being total garbage means there's an enormous variance in where people start versus where they should be. I have utterly no illusions about being a pro player, but I at least want matches that don't piss me off because you regularly have one-trick DPS that don't change for anything.
I can get my tank ranking up to where matches are regularly enjoyable, but getting the support ranking up there takes at least 3-4 times longer because you're are so utterly reliant on not getting fucked over with shitty DPS. I just want matches that are enjoyable, I'm not looking to get recruited by a pro team or something silly like that.
It really, really doesn't help that leavers are a plague right now and the idiotic matchmaker still fucks over five people because of one leaver. This is just inexcusable bullshit since it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to tie leaver penalties to groups and friends they play with instead of stupidly screwing loads of players with a terrible design idea.
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited September 2019
About a year ago I made the decision that I wasn't going to be a one trick. At the time I was a Pharah main and hardly played anything else... I would play Mei occasionally but I didn't play her like I do now. I would play Zen (replaced with Moira later when she was released) only if there were no healers.
I sat down and figured "Okay, I need at least TWO heroes from each role that I'm good enough with to play in Comp.". I almost was successful.... I'd say I'm "Comp Ready" with:
Mei, Pharah
Zenyatta, Brigitte, Moira
Orisa
If that roster is not sufficient, then I'd like to know why, if that is likely to change anytime soon, and what I should do to fix it either in the short or long term. Just trying to suck less.
Thanks!
(Please remember my aim is terrible so I just can't play hitscans at all (soldier, widow, ashe, mcree, etc.))
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"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
edited September 2019
Thats a perfectly fine stable of characters?
The only thing really missing is hitscan, which you noted
If you want another DPS for times when Pharah or Mei aren't the right answer I'd say maybe give Junkrat some time but I think hes perfect for every situation so
Edit maybe a Rein or Hog for times the other tank player grabs Orissa first and won't switch?
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Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
The only thing really missing is hitscan, which you noted
If you want another DPS for times when Pharah or Mei aren't the right answer I'd say maybe give Junkrat some time but I think hes perfect for every situation so
Hmm... I'm really bad at Junkrat, but I have maybe 20 minutes of time on him total. That's an interesting suggestion....
edit: I have not played Tank since 222 and I may never do so. That being said, yes I'd need to develop an offtank main for that situation.
double edit: Wait, Rein? Aren't he and Orisa effectively interchangeable? I just think of Rein as an Orisa that's easier to screw up. His charge is a subtlety difficult ability to use correctly.
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"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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KwoaruConfident SmirkFlawless Golden PecsRegistered Userregular
I have no idea how tanks work tbh
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Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
I can tell when we have a bad tank, but yes, I have no idea what a "good tank" actually does to be good. Other than good situational awareness and positioning. Which is hard enough as it is. Especially positioning... there seem to be a lot of different approaches and styles and if your team isn't thinking the same way you can get trickle and bad placement through no one individuals fault. I do tend to blame tanks for these situations, but maybe that is unfair.
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
I guess I would add an understanding of when to spend your health on an engagement. Tanks are (mostly) larger and harder to kill and they need to occasionally use that meat to plug a gap, even if you're someone weird like Wrecking Ball. Actually WB is great at just blocking a doorway if that's all you need to keep red team away from your payload in those final moments.
Yeah you definitely want to be at least proficient on Soldier/McCree/Sombra 'cause when the reds pull out Pharmercy, neither Mei nor Pharah nor Junk is gonna' do shit. Unless you're a Superjunk.
As for tanking, I'd say Just Orisa is not enough. She's my go-to pick and my favorite tank, I should mention. Orisa is very strong right now and a good pick in general - she obliterates Rein, specifically, and is one of the stronger tanks Vs. Doomfist - Mr. Popular that he is at the moment, but there are times when all you need to break a defense is just a Winston up on the high ground tickling the reds.
Orisa > Rein (she can easily destroy his barrier and fortify into his charges)
Rein > Sigma (Sigma's orbs are powerful but slow to fire, and Rein has 100% accuracy once he breaches Sigma's defenses - but I would argue Sigma is more of an offtank anyway.)
But here's where my ranking gets weird, I think:
Winston > Sigma and Orisa. His mobility and ability to escape just own them with the slightest backup from his team.
And you won't be able to effectively address the tank lineup of the enemy team if you're unable to switch off Orisa. Again, I love Orisa, but there are games I'd be straight-up throwing by not switching off her.
'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
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Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited September 2019
Yeh I'm not sure I'm ready to subject people to my tanking in Competitive. I mostly put Orisa up there to be complete. But I could tank in QP.
Winston is... way too weird for me. I don't even know how to fight him, much less play him. He doesn't seem like a tank at all to me.
I could... play Roadhog maybe?
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
Sometimes the problem with tanking (much like support) is that the class has no direct answer to a bunker. A bunker itself is a coordination - almost no single DPS hero can dislodge it on their own - but a Reaper, a Tracer, a Sombra, a Genji, a Doom can all make the pick that can crack it open. There is no tank that can do it on their own, period. The closest the roster gets is launching a D.Va bomb through the shield, and that's hardly a guarantee - so the answer becomes diving with defense Matrix or just letting them pour all that damage into Hammond while your team (maybe?) takes advantage of the split in attention to kill the Bastion.
Also tanking can be super-frustrating because as tank you need a decent healer backing you up and for the most part you need DPS that aren't morons. Yesterday, for example, I played with a Baptiste on my team who was absolutely incredible with his invincibility field. Like I'd get punched by a Doomfist and when I hit the wall there would be a lamp above me to save me - incredible! - and he never shot a heal grenade once in the entire match.
'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
But that Lucio-ing when you get a tank who understands they can be aggressive with that idiot who's poking while most of their team is dead but is totally vulnerable to a speed boosted push.
A carry tank is one who makes correct decisions on when to play aggressively and when to pull out. They commit hard to an engagement and win it easily because they knew their team had the upper hand at that moment. For that you need a solid understanding of what both your team and the enemy team are capable of, which takes a lot of game knowledge and situational awareness. And the main tank is most often the shot caller for their team, so their decisions are super important. It could be described as simply "positioning" but that makes it sound so much easier than it is.
I feel like I'm probably gimping myself by not playing Lucio, but something about the way he plays just doesn't do it for me.
My decision-making process as support is something like Is Brigitte reasonable here? No, Moira. Someone else on Moira? Uh, Zenyatta or Ana I guess?
In retrospect I don't play Mercy either, probably because I know I want to shoot the pistol and people will be mad if I shoot the pistol.
i really wish they'd do the baptiste thing with mercy...that is, left click is heal, left click + shift is dmg boost. right click is pistol staff shot...no weapon swapping. People would probably notice a lot less if they didn't see the mercy switching away from the staff. I don't complain if a baptiste is shooting because praise that person if they can hit stuff!
'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
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Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited September 2019
Getting back to DPS... is there a good non-hitscan counter to Pharah? You mentioned Sombra... I guess because they changed it where her hero-hack removes Pharah's jetpack, making her way more vulnerable.
Thing is, she has to be in range to begin with. I almost never get hacked while playing Pharah, because I'm never down there to be hacked to begin with.
When I'm playing Pharah I get hitscan killed a lot, and Roadhog will hook me. Bastions will get me if I'm not at max range. Even Honzo can get me occasionally. But it does seem like the real counter to Pharah is just good aim. Which I don't have.
What I do have is all that expirennce playing Pharah. I know how she moves, I know what she wants. That seems to help me more than who I'm playing. I'll get her with Mei icicles fairly frequently just because I can guess when she is low on fuel and going to drop down.
edit: Wait a minute.... if I got better at hero hacking with sombra and applied my pharah experience to trying to guess when she would drop low, I might be able to hack her just during that moment when shift is nearly off cooldown where she is at minimum altitude and (if she is good) no fuel. This is worth trying out...
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
You sort of have the option to go Pharmercy yourself and just do it better than they are if you can't play hitscan. It's not the best solution but it's playable.
Monkey Ball WarriorA collection of mediocre hatsSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
edited September 2019
The problem is I hate when Mercy's pocket me as Pharah because I am not good at noticing that they are up there with me (meaning I'm likely to get them killed) and also I usually feel like they should probably be healing tanks anyway. So when tanks die over and over and the Mercy is just in my pocket, i'm like "Did I just make us lose by playing Pharah and not knowing how to Phamercy?"
edit: It does sound like this is the closest thing to an option I have. I just need to pay more attention and get more comfortable with having her up there with me.
Monkey Ball Warrior on
"I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
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DragkoniasThat Guy Who Does StuffYou Know, There. Registered Userregular
Yeah your options against Pharah are pretty much hit scan, Pharah yourself, or ignore her and try to steamroll her team leaving her helpless.
I've been having success on lucio lately, less on the aggro-wall riding dps lucio style than a hard-to-kill, boop away from my tank, stay with the tanks and heal heal heal style. Occasionally we speed boost to kill stragglers with joy and revelry. And I basically never stop firing my gun at exposed targets or shields.
I haven't been playing Winston much anymore since 2-2-2; he used to be my pick when the enemy team is overly squishy, now that's rarely the case. 2 tanks means minimum 2 enemies Winston can't do much against, and he has a number of bad DPS matchups. But he can still be good if the DPS/Support are vulnerable to dive (i.e. few escape abilities), and he's great against Genji too. His barrier buff will help though, the duration makes it harder to ignore and a little more health makes his disruption that much better.
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Probably nothing too bad most of the time, since I'm running it at 1360x768 to match my tiny monitor...
The factor at its most basic level is Time Spent Not Healing, and every other question that plays into that (player death, time spent fending off a dive, repositioning, etc.) may or may not be within a player's control.
Some days it doesn't really matter how well a player can flex healer for survivability when it still means significant time spent not healing, which is why it bugs the fuck out of me when a teammate's first reaction is to swap healers
Ed: which might be why Moira killstreak cards are so annoying hmmm
1: DPS: there's at least 3-4 different OP DPS at this point so wins are as easy as picking your favorite broken character. If you don't pick an OP character, you suck as DPS because the OP characters are blatantly obvious and your basically hosing your team by not taking one. Just don't do dumbass shit like trying to force DF to work against Sym and Torb at the same time.
2. Tank: There are no OP tanks, but good tank play with a decent tank means you can somewhat effect the outcome of the game. Shitty DPS will still fuck your games on a regular basis, though.
3. Support: there are no OP support and you are straight fucked for getting wins because getting both decent tanks AND DPS is completely random. The matchmaker will regularly and actively stack veteran players against you while giving your side outright rookies. Expect to spend a lot of matches pissed off at Doomfist players who spend multiple rounds getting fucked by turrets, then finally switch character in the last thirty seconds of the match.
Tank and Supports you can still do that too but its a bit more rigid.
At least when I'm playing tank I can pick something that can take advantage of shitty DF/Genji players suiciding into turrets and clear the turrets myself, but support just needs adequate teammates too much for the current balance situation to be enjoyable.
You're gonna have those games...just is what it is.
Steam: MightyPotatoKing
but also i'm biased cos i was in the crowd both times and it is hype as fuck
The volume thing is what seriously grinds my gears. The placement matches being total garbage means there's an enormous variance in where people start versus where they should be. I have utterly no illusions about being a pro player, but I at least want matches that don't piss me off because you regularly have one-trick DPS that don't change for anything.
I can get my tank ranking up to where matches are regularly enjoyable, but getting the support ranking up there takes at least 3-4 times longer because you're are so utterly reliant on not getting fucked over with shitty DPS. I just want matches that are enjoyable, I'm not looking to get recruited by a pro team or something silly like that.
It really, really doesn't help that leavers are a plague right now and the idiotic matchmaker still fucks over five people because of one leaver. This is just inexcusable bullshit since it would be trivially easy for Blizzard to tie leaver penalties to groups and friends they play with instead of stupidly screwing loads of players with a terrible design idea.
i mean they'd go from "fun" halloween stuff to "horrifying nightmare fuel" with this one :bigfrown:
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
I would probably main Hamtaro if this happened.
I sat down and figured "Okay, I need at least TWO heroes from each role that I'm good enough with to play in Comp.". I almost was successful.... I'd say I'm "Comp Ready" with:
If that roster is not sufficient, then I'd like to know why, if that is likely to change anytime soon, and what I should do to fix it either in the short or long term. Just trying to suck less.
Thanks!
(Please remember my aim is terrible so I just can't play hitscans at all (soldier, widow, ashe, mcree, etc.))
The only thing really missing is hitscan, which you noted
If you want another DPS for times when Pharah or Mei aren't the right answer I'd say maybe give Junkrat some time but I think hes perfect for every situation so
Edit maybe a Rein or Hog for times the other tank player grabs Orissa first and won't switch?
Hmm... I'm really bad at Junkrat, but I have maybe 20 minutes of time on him total. That's an interesting suggestion....
edit: I have not played Tank since 222 and I may never do so. That being said, yes I'd need to develop an offtank main for that situation.
double edit: Wait, Rein? Aren't he and Orisa effectively interchangeable? I just think of Rein as an Orisa that's easier to screw up. His charge is a subtlety difficult ability to use correctly.
As for tanking, I'd say Just Orisa is not enough. She's my go-to pick and my favorite tank, I should mention. Orisa is very strong right now and a good pick in general - she obliterates Rein, specifically, and is one of the stronger tanks Vs. Doomfist - Mr. Popular that he is at the moment, but there are times when all you need to break a defense is just a Winston up on the high ground tickling the reds.
Orisa > Rein (she can easily destroy his barrier and fortify into his charges)
Rein > Sigma (Sigma's orbs are powerful but slow to fire, and Rein has 100% accuracy once he breaches Sigma's defenses - but I would argue Sigma is more of an offtank anyway.)
But here's where my ranking gets weird, I think:
Winston > Sigma and Orisa. His mobility and ability to escape just own them with the slightest backup from his team.
And you won't be able to effectively address the tank lineup of the enemy team if you're unable to switch off Orisa. Again, I love Orisa, but there are games I'd be straight-up throwing by not switching off her.
Winston is... way too weird for me. I don't even know how to fight him, much less play him. He doesn't seem like a tank at all to me.
I could... play Roadhog maybe?
Also tanking can be super-frustrating because as tank you need a decent healer backing you up and for the most part you need DPS that aren't morons. Yesterday, for example, I played with a Baptiste on my team who was absolutely incredible with his invincibility field. Like I'd get punched by a Doomfist and when I hit the wall there would be a lamp above me to save me - incredible! - and he never shot a heal grenade once in the entire match.
My decision-making process as support is something like Is Brigitte reasonable here? No, Moira. Someone else on Moira? Uh, Zenyatta or Ana I guess?
In retrospect I don't play Mercy either, probably because I know I want to shoot the pistol and people will be mad if I shoot the pistol.
So good.
i really wish they'd do the baptiste thing with mercy...that is, left click is heal, left click + shift is dmg boost. right click is pistol staff shot...no weapon swapping. People would probably notice a lot less if they didn't see the mercy switching away from the staff. I don't complain if a baptiste is shooting because praise that person if they can hit stuff!
Blizzard: Pailryder#1101
GoG: https://www.gog.com/u/pailryder
Moira - ditto
Zenyatta - ditto
Bap - ditto
Ana - can swap back and forth instantly
Mercy - haha fuck you healbot.
Thing is, she has to be in range to begin with. I almost never get hacked while playing Pharah, because I'm never down there to be hacked to begin with.
When I'm playing Pharah I get hitscan killed a lot, and Roadhog will hook me. Bastions will get me if I'm not at max range. Even Honzo can get me occasionally. But it does seem like the real counter to Pharah is just good aim. Which I don't have.
What I do have is all that expirennce playing Pharah. I know how she moves, I know what she wants. That seems to help me more than who I'm playing. I'll get her with Mei icicles fairly frequently just because I can guess when she is low on fuel and going to drop down.
edit: Wait a minute.... if I got better at hero hacking with sombra and applied my pharah experience to trying to guess when she would drop low, I might be able to hack her just during that moment when shift is nearly off cooldown where she is at minimum altitude and (if she is good) no fuel. This is worth trying out...
edit: It does sound like this is the closest thing to an option I have. I just need to pay more attention and get more comfortable with having her up there with me.
I haven't been playing Winston much anymore since 2-2-2; he used to be my pick when the enemy team is overly squishy, now that's rarely the case. 2 tanks means minimum 2 enemies Winston can't do much against, and he has a number of bad DPS matchups. But he can still be good if the DPS/Support are vulnerable to dive (i.e. few escape abilities), and he's great against Genji too. His barrier buff will help though, the duration makes it harder to ignore and a little more health makes his disruption that much better.
Which makes me think I need to play nothing but flankers for a while, because I'm clearly missing some core competency.