they're already arresting former cabinet members, so....
The electoral coalition aka the people that tried to fix the election so that Morales could avoid a second round? Last time I checked trying to fix an Presidential election was illegal.
Why the fuck is the military handling this instead of like
You know
Civilian authorities
In every country the ultimate power rests with the military who have to power to express their wishes by force. Which is why it is the military who tend to do coups.
But presuming the president and the cabinet are being sketchy with elections
Why the fuck is the military handling this instead of like
You know
Civilian authorities
Like the police that were part of the protesters?
My guess would be because until very recently he controlled the military and the police didn't want to get killed by the military. Once the military told him to go fuck himself and stepped in, well, at that point the military has stepped in.
Well, the alternative is to keep allowing a rogue Executive to get away with breaking the law because "his term wasn't up". There isn't an Impeachment process or something on the US about that?
Well, the alternative is to keep allowing a rogue Executive to get away with breaking the law because "his term wasn't up". There isn't an Impeachment process or something on the US about that?
LA PAZ (Reuters) - Bolivia’s highest court struck down limits on re-election in the country’s constitution and election laws on Tuesday, paving the way for socialist President Evo Morales to run for a fourth term in 2019.
That doesn't answer the question. If a rogue Executive is found to break the law, which is what the OAS report says by the way, should it be allowed to keep in charge because "his term wasn't up"? Is a Yes/No question.
That doesn't answer the question. If a rogue Executive is found to break the law, which is what the OAS report says by the way, should it be allowed to keep in charge because "his term wasn't up"? Is a Yes/No question.
The OAS is alleging fraud in the quick count, which is not the legally binding count and has presented no evidence for it aside from the numbers not making sense to them. And even then, the only appropriate response is for the Bolivian courts to sort this out, not for the military to intervene.
Why the fuck is the military handling this instead of like
You know
Civilian authorities
In every country the ultimate power rests with the military who have to power to express their wishes by force. Which is why it is the military who tend to do coups.
it was, somewhat, a rhetorical question meant to illuminate the absurdity of defending the actions of the military ousting a civilian leader for supposed electoral violations :P
That doesn't answer the question. If a rogue Executive is found to break the law, which is what the OAS report says by the way, should it be allowed to keep in charge because "his term wasn't up"? Is a Yes/No question.
The OAS is alleging fraud in the quick count, which is not the legally binding count and has presented no evidence for it aside from the numbers not making sense to them. And even then, the only appropriate response is for the Bolivian courts to sort this out, not for the military to intervene.
“I am sending my resignation letter to the Legislative Assembly of Bolivia,” the 60-year-old socialist leader said...
Before Morales had even finished his statement, people began honking their car horns in La Paz and other cities and took to the streets to celebrate, waving Bolivian flags and setting off fireworks.
“This is not Cuba, nor Venezuela. This is Bolivia, and Bolivia is respected,” a crowd in the capital shouted.
Large crowds formed in the main squares in the capital, with many people rejoicing and some crying tears of joy. Protesters lay down in front of the presidential palace and set a coffin on fire to symbolize the death of the Morales government.
That doesn't answer the question. If a rogue Executive is found to break the law, which is what the OAS report says by the way, should it be allowed to keep in charge because "his term wasn't up"? Is a Yes/No question.
The OAS is alleging fraud in the quick count, which is not the legally binding count and has presented no evidence for it aside from the numbers not making sense to them. And even then, the only appropriate response is for the Bolivian courts to sort this out, not for the military to intervene.
“I am sending my resignation letter to the Legislative Assembly of Bolivia,” the 60-year-old socialist leader said...
Before Morales had even finished his statement, people began honking their car horns in La Paz and other cities and took to the streets to celebrate, waving Bolivian flags and setting off fireworks.
“This is not Cuba, nor Venezuela. This is Bolivia, and Bolivia is respected,” a crowd in the capital shouted.
Large crowds formed in the main squares in the capital, with many people rejoicing and some crying tears of joy. Protesters lay down in front of the presidential palace and set a coffin on fire to symbolize the death of the Morales government.
Yeah they've also been attacking and randsacking administration homes and individuals. Same old story.
There's a huge degree of racism at play too. Morales was the first Bolivian president from the indigenous population, which makes up somewhere around half the population of Bolivia. He did a lot of indigenous groups and they enjoyed much more visible representation in both symbolic and real terms while he was in power. This was a major source of grievance for the right wing in the country and there's been reports of violent recrimination the like since the coup.
There's a huge degree of racism at play too. Morales was the first Bolivian president from the indigenous population, which makes up somewhere around half the population of Bolivia. He did a lot of indigenous groups and they enjoyed much more visible representation in both symbolic and real terms while he was in power. This was a major source of grievance for the right wing in the country and there's been reports of violent recrimination the like since the coup.
US involvement in Latin America and supporting right wing groups, name a more iconic duo.
There's a huge degree of racism at play too. Morales was the first Bolivian president from the indigenous population, which makes up somewhere around half the population of Bolivia. He did a lot of indigenous groups and they enjoyed much more visible representation in both symbolic and real terms while he was in power. This was a major source of grievance for the right wing in the country and there's been reports of violent recrimination the like since the coup.
US involvement in Latin America and supporting right wing groups, name a more iconic duo.
There's a huge degree of racism at play too. Morales was the first Bolivian president from the indigenous population, which makes up somewhere around half the population of Bolivia. He did a lot of indigenous groups and they enjoyed much more visible representation in both symbolic and real terms while he was in power. This was a major source of grievance for the right wing in the country and there's been reports of violent recrimination the like since the coup.
US involvement in Latin America and supporting right wing groups, name a more iconic duo.
In the hours after polls closed, preliminary results showed Morales slightly ahead of his opponent, former President Carlos Mesa. The tight margin would have prompted a runoff vote in December.
But the opposition and international observers became suspicious after election officials stopped the count for about 24 hours without an explanation. When the count resumed, Morales' lead had jumped significantly.
Especially after the shit he pulled to ignore the term limits.
The court lifted constitutional limits on re-election arguing that they violated candidates' human rights.
Changes to presidents' term limits:
1967 constitution: States that presidents can serve a maximum of two terms in office, but not back to back
2009 constitution: Lifts ban on serving consecutive terms, but presidents are still limited to two terms
2016 referendum (rejected by voters): Proposed dropping term limits
2017 constitutional court ruling: Scraps term limits
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AbsalonLands of Always WinterRegistered Userregular
I don't believe anything reported by Western media about alleged wrongdoing by South American left-wing governments. And the people that want to replace him have done and will do worse than have the courts scrap term limits. Smash the opposition, put him back, pedal to the metal.
I don't believe anything reported by Western media about alleged wrongdoing by South American left-wing governments. And the people that want to replace him have done and will do worse than have the courts scrap term limits. Smash the opposition, put him back, pedal to the metal.
???There are tons of Latin American media saying the same thing unless you think the demonstrators are nothing but stooges for the west who only consume western news media.
+1
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AbsalonLands of Always WinterRegistered Userregular
I don't believe anything reported by Western media about alleged wrongdoing by South American left-wing governments. And the people that want to replace him have done and will do worse than have the courts scrap term limits. Smash the opposition, put him back, pedal to the metal.
???There are tons of Latin American media saying the same thing unless you think the demonstrators are nothing but stooges for the west who only consume western news media.
I... generally think they are stooges of the west one way or the other? The US wants the cheap lithium and is ready to spend a lot on securing it, and there are Bolivians (people indoctrinated by Christianity who think "the left" means gay people and abortions everywhere, military people who have a deep contempt for anything left-wing, rich entrepreneurs) who want US funds. Morales should never have shown weakness by allowing new elections, because the "irregularities" could have been caused by anything including US interference. The world is a simple, shitty place that always does this to people that try to play fairly.
Also, there's another point. There were protests for weeks after Morales cheated to try to dodge a second round, since people rightfully got angry about it, and then the military said "we aren't going to shoot protesters so is better that you quit to stop the protests".
Note that the main opposition candidate said that he was willing to risk getting shot at, unlike in Venezuela, where the so-called opposition is on the pocket of people that bought Venezuelan debt and want sanctions dropped.
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AbsalonLands of Always WinterRegistered Userregular
edited November 2019
The institution that called cheating is dubious at best and there are histories of astroturfed protests against left-wing democratically elected leaders. A military coup is not a valid response to an ignored close referendum.
I don't believe anything reported by Western media about alleged wrongdoing by South American left-wing governments. And the people that want to replace him have done and will do worse than have the courts scrap term limits. Smash the opposition, put him back, pedal to the metal.
???There are tons of Latin American media saying the same thing unless you think the demonstrators are nothing but stooges for the west who only consume western news media.
I... generally think they are stooges of the west one way or the other? The US wants the cheap lithium and is ready to spend a lot on securing it, and there are Bolivians (people indoctrinated by Christianity who think "the left" means gay people and abortions everywhere, military people who have a deep contempt for anything left-wing, rich entrepreneurs) who want US funds. Morales should never have shown weakness by allowing new elections, because the "irregularities" could have been caused by anything including US interference. The world is a simple, shitty place that always does this to people that try to play fairly.
So, everybody that dares to report things that you don't like are Fake News. Ok then.
I don't believe anything reported by Western media about alleged wrongdoing by South American left-wing governments. And the people that want to replace him have done and will do worse than have the courts scrap term limits. Smash the opposition, put him back, pedal to the metal.
???There are tons of Latin American media saying the same thing unless you think the demonstrators are nothing but stooges for the west who only consume western news media.
I... generally think they are stooges of the west one way or the other? The US wants the cheap lithium, and there are Bolivians who want US funds. Morales should never have shown weakness by allowing new elections, because the "irregularities" could have been caused by anything including US interference. The world is a simple, shitty place that always does this to people that try to play fairly.
What, the USA rigged the pre-election polls, early results, and the forced the electoral council to suddenly stop counting the votes before coming back a day later and saying Morales had just barely got the votes needed to avoid a runoff? If so, damn, the US is more competent than I thought.
Going into the 2019 election, polls indicated Morales wouldn’t be able to receive enough votes to avoid a runoff. A candidate for president in Bolivia needs at least 50 percent of the vote to win, or failing that, a 10 percentage point lead on their nearest rival. Early vote counts indicated Morales would fail to meet either criteria, and as publicly available results seemed to increasingly confirm this, the electoral council abruptly stopped counting votes.
A full day later, they announced the results: somehow, Morales had barely surpassed the amount of votes necessary to avoid a runoff against former President Carlos Mesa, his closest competitor.
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AbsalonLands of Always WinterRegistered Userregular
edited November 2019
Carlos Mesa, catspaw of the IMF.
If anyone thinks I am being insufficiently liberal or democratic in my attitudes here, it's because I am neither liberal nor a democrat. If you give the poor healthcare and cut poverty in half while spiting the shit out of the catholic church, the US, neoliberal institutions like the IMF and US energy corporations, I honestly don't care what you do in terms of cheating as long as you aren't sending out death squads or beating up dissidents.
There's a huge degree of racism at play too. Morales was the first Bolivian president from the indigenous population, which makes up somewhere around half the population of Bolivia. He did a lot of indigenous groups and they enjoyed much more visible representation in both symbolic and real terms while he was in power. This was a major source of grievance for the right wing in the country and there's been reports of violent recrimination the like since the coup.
People were very happy to take down the indigenous flag
And right wing protestors were burning it
So yeah
This article was pretty good at helping me understand the election stuff I think
But in December 2017, the nation’s highest court ruled against term limits. Regardless of what anyone thinks of it, in Bolivia, as in the United States, the court’s decision is the law of the land. For many of those trying to overturn the results of the presidential election—including the Trump administration and its allies—the end justifies the means, and the rule of law is not a consideration.
The argument was that Morales failed so used a corrupt organization to get what he wanted. That the court is officially the final word in no way frees it from attacks as illegitimate or its own actions as being against the rule if law for various reasons.
In this case, the writer ignores that being a justice on the Supreme Tribunal of Justice is an elected position and all who decided the case were elected in 2011 for a six year term starting in 2012. They were pretty much all Morales supporters.
It’s a tall order, to say the least. While Morales emphasizes that the judicial elections have strengthened Bolivian democracy, the new justices begin their terms under a cloud of illegitimacy—since only 41% of Bolivian voters cast valid votes in the October elections, while 42% voided their ballots and 17% left them blank. This outcome resulted from a strong campaign by opposition parties to turn the judicial vote into a referendum on the Morales government, along with widespread dissatisfaction over Morales’s handling of the TIPNIS conflict and voter confusion that the opposition was able to exploit. Following the vote, opposition leaders sought unsuccessfully to invalidate the election results (Bolivian law clearly provides for election of judges based on the percentage of valid votes cast).
Critics charge that the election will reduce the independence of the judiciary, since the candidates—while officially non-partisan—were chosen by the Movement Towards Socialism (MAS)-controlled Congress. But prior to the new judicial election system, which is mandated by Bolivia’s 2009 Constitution, Congress chose the judges directly, allowing dominant coalition parties to negotiate their respective quotas.
Thinking the decision elected body filled with the president's supporters deciding a part of the constitution limiting the number of terms is a violation of human rights is illegitimate is hardly ignoring the rule of law.
Couscous on
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AbsalonLands of Always WinterRegistered Userregular
edited November 2019
Well Morales tried to play fair and be democratic and now he, his VP and his speakers in parliament have all been removed and the right-wingers are going to nestle themselves in and latch on to power much harder than they accussed the left of doing. Lesson is, don't concede ever and make sure your judges know the play and know their place.
He held a referendum to overturn the constitution to allow him to run for another term, lost it, and went to a supreme court more friendly to him to let him do it anyway, and then in the election he stands accused of massive fraud.
I don't know what "play fair and be democratic" means in the context of these actions.
If anyone thinks I am being insufficiently liberal or democratic in my attitudes here, it's because I am neither liberal nor a democrat. If you give the poor healthcare and cut poverty in half while spiting the shit out of the catholic church, the US, neoliberal institutions like the IMF and US energy corporations, I honestly don't care what you do in terms of cheating as long as you aren't sending out death squads or beating up dissidents.
That was a very quick run into:
We did it and it was awesome.
Democracy is a neo-liberal trick.
But being a turbo goose is natural for tankies, so is not fully unexpected.
Posts
The electoral coalition aka the people that tried to fix the election so that Morales could avoid a second round? Last time I checked trying to fix an Presidential election was illegal.
Just a question as a curious dumb American
But presuming the president and the cabinet are being sketchy with elections
Why the fuck is the military handling this instead of like
You know
Civilian authorities
In every country the ultimate power rests with the military who have to power to express their wishes by force. Which is why it is the military who tend to do coups.
This really looks like another left wing government getting knocked over by right wing thugs.
Like the police that were part of the protesters?
My guess would be because until very recently he controlled the military and the police didn't want to get killed by the military. Once the military told him to go fuck himself and stepped in, well, at that point the military has stepped in.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-bolivia-politics/bolivian-court-clears-way-for-morales-to-run-for-fourth-term-idUSKBN1DS2ZX
The OAS is alleging fraud in the quick count, which is not the legally binding count and has presented no evidence for it aside from the numbers not making sense to them. And even then, the only appropriate response is for the Bolivian courts to sort this out, not for the military to intervene.
it was, somewhat, a rhetorical question meant to illuminate the absurdity of defending the actions of the military ousting a civilian leader for supposed electoral violations :P
The mob seems happier now, at least.
https://apnews.com/e4e1977c3e48426f927ce900d2818b4f
Yeah they've also been attacking and randsacking administration homes and individuals. Same old story.
"Protest leader"
US involvement in Latin America and supporting right wing groups, name a more iconic duo.
Was there any US involvement here?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_of_American_States
They also found the 'irregularities' in the election.
Also, the whole thing ist heavily right wing. Anti-indigenous sentiments are high, indigenous flags are being burned people hunted
https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/10/americas/bolivia-new-election-audit/index.html
Especially after the shit he pulled to ignore the term limits.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-latin-america-42165258
So who does have to report something about it for you to believe it?
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???There are tons of Latin American media saying the same thing unless you think the demonstrators are nothing but stooges for the west who only consume western news media.
I... generally think they are stooges of the west one way or the other? The US wants the cheap lithium and is ready to spend a lot on securing it, and there are Bolivians (people indoctrinated by Christianity who think "the left" means gay people and abortions everywhere, military people who have a deep contempt for anything left-wing, rich entrepreneurs) who want US funds. Morales should never have shown weakness by allowing new elections, because the "irregularities" could have been caused by anything including US interference. The world is a simple, shitty place that always does this to people that try to play fairly.
Note that the main opposition candidate said that he was willing to risk getting shot at, unlike in Venezuela, where the so-called opposition is on the pocket of people that bought Venezuelan debt and want sanctions dropped.
So, everybody that dares to report things that you don't like are Fake News. Ok then.
https://www.vox.com/world/2019/11/10/20957613/evo-morales-bolivia-president-resigns-protests-report
If anyone thinks I am being insufficiently liberal or democratic in my attitudes here, it's because I am neither liberal nor a democrat. If you give the poor healthcare and cut poverty in half while spiting the shit out of the catholic church, the US, neoliberal institutions like the IMF and US energy corporations, I honestly don't care what you do in terms of cheating as long as you aren't sending out death squads or beating up dissidents.
People were very happy to take down the indigenous flag
And right wing protestors were burning it
So yeah
This article was pretty good at helping me understand the election stuff I think
In this case, the writer ignores that being a justice on the Supreme Tribunal of Justice is an elected position and all who decided the case were elected in 2011 for a six year term starting in 2012. They were pretty much all Morales supporters.
https://nacla.org/blog/2012/1/13/bolivia%E2%80%99s-new-faces-justice
Thinking the decision elected body filled with the president's supporters deciding a part of the constitution limiting the number of terms is a violation of human rights is illegitimate is hardly ignoring the rule of law.
He held a referendum to overturn the constitution to allow him to run for another term, lost it, and went to a supreme court more friendly to him to let him do it anyway, and then in the election he stands accused of massive fraud.
I don't know what "play fair and be democratic" means in the context of these actions.
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That was a very quick run into:
But being a turbo goose is natural for tankies, so is not fully unexpected.
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