we so far only have the implication that she was fired for being Picard's aide. I feel like it's entirely possible that she went into that meeting with the CNC and blew her stack and got herself fired.
Maybe. But if she blew her stack for Picard's sake then it would be easy for her to make that connection.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
we so far only have the implication that she was fired for being Picard's aide. I feel like it's entirely possible that she went into that meeting with the CNC and blew her stack and got herself fired.
Maybe. But if she blew her stack for Picard's sake then it would be easy for her to make that connection.
Sure! I agree. Whether she was fired or basically put the brass in the position of having to fire her by being really angry is kind of a wash in terms of how she would feel about it 10+ years later. It makes complete sense that she would be upset at Picard, especially because a big part of her anger is more about the lack of contact in the intervening time.
I'm not even saying this is what I think happened, I'm just noting it's a possibility since the show seems to be doing a consistent thing of gradually unfolding the backstory through flashbacks and we never actually saw her firing. Right now I feel like it's even money that
A) she was fired as part of the Romulan plot, because as an intelligence officer she was dangerous to their plans etc she was just loud and angry and inconsolable and flamed out
C) she was fired because Picard quit and Starfleet was cleaning house on his whole department for ??reasons??
Of those possibilities, I prefer A or B; A because it would fold into the greater plot, B because it feels understandable and human. C would make me unhappy because it's just a dumb thing for an organization to do.
Caught up on Picard. I continue to dig it. It reminds me more of Babylon 5 than TNG in some ways, with its greater focus on politics and personal arcs as opposed to more philosophical or idea-based plots in traditional Trek. Like, I think this series is much more likely to give us a deep meditation on the nature of grief than "the ship is trapped in a Negative Space Wedgie."
Thought on Eps 2-3:
The show is doing a fantastic job of making Picard sympathetic and relatable while making it clear that he really is quite arrogant. Hopefully the show uses that later on.
I think Raffi is the weakest role so far. Might be the writing, but a few of the affectations the actress threw in there just felt like "acting!" and took me out of the scenes.
Although the holograms' accents are a bit cringey, too.
Otherwise it's certainly some of the better Trek I've seen so far.
I posted my thoughts on the first episode, basically I loved it.
Regarding episode 2, I have to say it kind of left me cold.
The extended scene in Vajh's apartment was interminable. It was straight out of an awful CSI procedural, complete with its own version (or two) of "I can't make it out" "Enhance!" "Got it!". The technology itself seems absolutely insane - to be able to recreate facial expressions and conversations from the past based on a scan of the environment just strains credulity, and the implications of that tech existing if it works kind of breaks the universe. On top of that, all of it just leads to this "astounding" revelation that the sister is not on Earth. Uh... first of all, I wouldn't expect that to be so much of a shock to anyone in the 24th century. And secondly, it's a revelation that falls flat for the audience, because we already know that. So, long generic scene with no payoff. It was painful for me to see Patrick Stewart wasted on a scene like that.
The scene between the Starfleet bad ladies was just rough. Again, it felt like it was something out of a generic low-quality show.
In general I find all the stuff about the Jat Vash or whatever kind of meh. It's a cool idea but it's not working for me so far.
Part I did like:
I read some comments about the part where Picard's Romulan housemate suggests he round up the old Enterprise crew being a bit cringey. It did feel a bit forced the way the line was written and delivered, rattling off the names. However I have to say Stewart's delivery of the response had an emotional impact for me. It worked, it made sense, and once again Stewart is able to communicate so much feeling in so few words.
Episode 3, okay but just okay.
The flashback scene with Picard and Raffi outside Starfleet Command just seemed kind of off. They're talking about super high stakes stuff, billions of lives, but Picard seems bizarrely calm about it and Raffi seems to be mostly pissed that she's going to be fired.
The scene in the present where Picard is at Raffi's place and she tries to tell him she has evidence of Romulan influence in Starfleet or something like that and Picard brushes her off with "But the Romulans wouldn't want to fuck up their own rescue" was super dumb. How about "Oh, really? What evidence?". Makes no sense for him not to hear her out especially given what's going on, and is just dumb writing.
Captain Rios talking with his EMH of whatever-the-fuck accent was just very odd and I didn't need it. It was just confusing. The whole time I was like... Is that an EMH of himself, or does it just look a lot like him? Why does it have this weird accent? Is the accent changing? Is it programmed to have random accents each time it materializes? Or.. is it the same? I wonder what accent the actor has naturally? What is going on?
Like everyone else, my heart swelled with feeling at the end when
Picard says "Engage" and the music comes in. Though I have to say it felt a bit inconsistent with Rios's character up to that point to defer to Picard there.
"Flee from Worf, Worf ain't fun, flee right now, don't walk - RUN!"
RMS Oceanic on
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
DS9 has Odo give a stirring, if somewhat half-assed, speech in support of holographic life. It's doing the halfway thing of arguing that maybe Starfleet's definition of life is incomplete, instead of a full-throat declaration that the holovillagers are alive, but I'll take it. Good job Odo and Dax.
Of course there's the minor issue that they've discovered a piece of technology that manages to be a power generator that also works as a holodeck that's a few km in diameter and can support the functioning of multiple AI's and will never be mentioned again, but that's just how Trek rolls.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
DS9 has Odo give a stirring, if somewhat half-assed, speech in support of holographic life. It's doing the halfway thing of arguing that maybe Starfleet's definition of life is incomplete, instead of a full-throat declaration that the holovillagers are alive, but I'll take it. Good job Odo and Dax.
Of course there's the minor issue that they've discovered a piece of technology that manages to be a power generator that also works as a holodeck that's a few km in diameter and can support the functioning of multiple AI's and will never be mentioned again, but that's just how Trek rolls.
Starfleet stores all those one off inventions in a warehouse owned by the Commitee to Understand Life Transforming Utilities and Revolutionise Everything
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
Where they are studied by top men.
Top. Men.
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TraceGNU Terry Pratchett; GNU Gus; GNU Carrie Fisher; GNU Adam WeRegistered Userregular
So having watched episode 3, I feel safe calling it right now:
The Romulans are organic synthetics that rebelled against the Vulcans and ran away forming the Romulan Star Empire. The whole "they rejected logic and left" thing was just some ruse the Zath Vash put in place to hide their origin. After all what better way to hide something then by leaving another secret in its wake. Remember the Vulcan's didn't know the Romulan's looked like Vulcans, but I bet the Romulans did. Allowing the Zath Vash to infiltrate Vulcan society to hide their existence, by altering historical records. Then when people meet the Romulans they go "the secret was that they where Vulcan Rebels"!
To add more weight to the argument; In the Episode Data's day(which incidentally was the first TNG Episode I saw outside of the pilot and a few double episodes) has a Vulcan Ambassador being transported to a meeting with the Romulans. She dies in an apparent transporter accident, but its revealed to be a setup. When Picard and the Enterprise goes to confront the Romulan about kidnapping the Ambassador, they reveal she was a deep cover spy. If they did it once, what is to stop them from doing it twice. Especially if its only to remove ancient historical data?
Data's Day also has Data correspond with Bruce Maddox about his daily life, showing that they where at least talking despite their earlier differences.
It also shows O'Brien and Keiko's wedding, with the cold open showing Keiko getting cold feet. Setting the tone of many a torture O'Brien episode to come. The Next episode was the Wounded the very first Torture O'Brien. (I am so old that I bought the two episodes on a VHS tape which was what we called DVDs in the olden time, which is what we called Blue-rays back in the day, which is what we used to Stream an entire TV season before the Internet was good enough to Netflix and Chill). Not Laserdisc though, Laserdisc was always a trash format.
Additional;
I find the idea that a Romulan ship being the last thing the Borg Cube assimilated to be very suspicious. The fact that the Romulan ex-borg are all various states of Crazy as second suspicious thing. It just makes me more sure of my call.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
So having watched episode 3, I feel safe calling it right now:
The Romulans are organic synthetics that rebelled against the Vulcans and ran away forming the Romulan Star Empire. The whole "they rejected logic and left" thing was just some ruse the Zath Vash put in place to hide their origin. After all what better way to hide something then by leaving another secret in its wake. Remember the Vulcan's didn't know the Romulan's looked like Vulcans, but I bet the Romulans did. Allowing the Zath Vash to infiltrate Vulcan society to hide their existence, by altering historical records. Then when people meet the Romulans they go "the secret was that they where Vulcan Rebels"!
To add more weight to the argument; In the Episode Data's day(which incidentally was the first TNG Episode I saw outside of the pilot and a few double episodes) has a Vulcan Ambassador being transported to a meeting with the Romulans. She dies in an apparent transporter accident, but its revealed to be a setup. When Picard and the Enterprise goes to confront the Romulan about kidnapping the Ambassador, they reveal she was a deep cover spy. If they did it once, what is to stop them from doing it twice. Especially if its only to remove ancient historical data?
Data's Day also has Data correspond with Bruce Maddox about his daily life, showing that they where at least talking despite their earlier differences.
It also shows O'Brien and Keiko's wedding, with the cold open showing Keiko getting cold feet. Setting the tone of many a torture O'Brien episode to come. The Next episode was the Wounded the very first Torture O'Brien. (I am so old that I bought the two episodes on a VHS tape which was what we called DVDs in the olden time, which is what we called Blue-rays back in the day, which is what we used to Stream an entire TV season before the Internet was good enough to Netflix and Chill). Not Laserdisc though, Laserdisc was always a trash format.
Additional;
I find the idea that a Romulan ship being the last thing the Borg Cube assimilated to be very suspicious. The fact that the Romulan ex-borg are all various states of Crazy as second suspicious thing. It just makes me more sure of my call.
Lending credence to your argument:
It's a big plot point in Enterprise and its follow-up novels that the Romulans have heavily infiltrated Vulcan society. They can basically implant sleeper agents at will. At least some of the heroes actually know about the Vulcan-Romulan connection, but keep it under wraps for Reasons™.
The big hole:
If the Romulans are organic synths, why would the cabal be so intent on destroying synths with all the accompanying bigotry that implies. I could see it as a realpolitik thing—they wouldn't want rival powers to achieve tech as advanced as their own—but why call Soji/synths/et. al. "abominations" if they're essentially the same as Romulans?
Listen If i ever own my own starship you better believe that my medical/engineering/command/any other hologram crew are all just me with multiple different accents
Listen If i ever own my own starship you better believe that my medical/engineering/command/any other hologram crew are all just me with multiple different accents
I feel like this could easily be a sci-fi novel involving increasingly selective social bubbles and a descent into madness.
So having watched episode 3, I feel safe calling it right now:
The Romulans are organic synthetics that rebelled against the Vulcans and ran away forming the Romulan Star Empire. The whole "they rejected logic and left" thing was just some ruse the Zath Vash put in place to hide their origin. After all what better way to hide something then by leaving another secret in its wake. Remember the Vulcan's didn't know the Romulan's looked like Vulcans, but I bet the Romulans did. Allowing the Zath Vash to infiltrate Vulcan society to hide their existence, by altering historical records. Then when people meet the Romulans they go "the secret was that they where Vulcan Rebels"!
To add more weight to the argument; In the Episode Data's day(which incidentally was the first TNG Episode I saw outside of the pilot and a few double episodes) has a Vulcan Ambassador being transported to a meeting with the Romulans. She dies in an apparent transporter accident, but its revealed to be a setup. When Picard and the Enterprise goes to confront the Romulan about kidnapping the Ambassador, they reveal she was a deep cover spy. If they did it once, what is to stop them from doing it twice. Especially if its only to remove ancient historical data?
Data's Day also has Data correspond with Bruce Maddox about his daily life, showing that they where at least talking despite their earlier differences.
It also shows O'Brien and Keiko's wedding, with the cold open showing Keiko getting cold feet. Setting the tone of many a torture O'Brien episode to come. The Next episode was the Wounded the very first Torture O'Brien. (I am so old that I bought the two episodes on a VHS tape which was what we called DVDs in the olden time, which is what we called Blue-rays back in the day, which is what we used to Stream an entire TV season before the Internet was good enough to Netflix and Chill). Not Laserdisc though, Laserdisc was always a trash format.
Additional;
I find the idea that a Romulan ship being the last thing the Borg Cube assimilated to be very suspicious. The fact that the Romulan ex-borg are all various states of Crazy as second suspicious thing. It just makes me more sure of my call.
Lending credence to your argument:
It's a big plot point in Enterprise and its follow-up novels that the Romulans have heavily infiltrated Vulcan society. They can basically implant sleeper agents at will. At least some of the heroes actually know about the Vulcan-Romulan connection, but keep it under wraps for Reasons™.
The big hole:
If the Romulans are organic synths, why would the cabal be so intent on destroying synths with all the accompanying bigotry that implies. I could see it as a realpolitik thing—they wouldn't want rival powers to achieve tech as advanced as their own—but why call Soji/synths/et. al. "abominations" if they're essentially the same as Romulans?
On the big hole:
The Borg. They are a counterpoint to the Federation, but what if they are also a different endpoint to organic Synthetics? That Species 1(the original borg) are synthetic too, only they go on a assimilation spree. Other organic synths pose a threat especially since they have to be created with the beginnings of a hive mind ala Soji/Dosh, what with having to be created in pairs. From a Romulan point of view, they pose a threat to everyone by simply existing. Every non-Romulan Synth is a potential second borg collective.
The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
So I haven't gone in depth here regarding episode three. I had mixed feelings. I'm still very much enjoying the show, but as with episode 2, it feels like there's a "Picard bubble" where most of the scenes with Picard are strong (although some have issues) but as soon as they cut away it's like woof.
First off, and this is sort of a nitpick but also sort of not, they have three characters named Raffi, Rizzo, and Rios. As a friend put it, "see me after class." This is TV writing 101; you don't have two characters named Maxwell and...Haxwell or something. It's not some kind of insurmountable obstancle but it breaks the flow for a crucial second or two here and there as you furrow your brow to try and recall who is who and it's like...why.
On to more specific, possibly spoilery things.
Regarding Raffi,
The "JL" bit felt artificial and forced and I cringed each time it happened, which means I cringed about thirty-two times in a two-minute span. It's very much the show trying to establish that these characters have a shared history and a prior relationship but the show already did that so much better with Laris and Zhaban.
Raffi, as a character, I'm kind of on the fence on at the moment. That doesn't mean I dislike her, I'm just waiting to see where things go. As I mentioned earlier, I think I'd kind of prefer it if her firing was due to her own issues and behavior, or to actual sinister Romulan plots, than due to the admiral being terrible to her for basically no reason. It seems like the show is at least suggesting the possibility that she's unhealthily paranoid given her space weed (I did appreciate the space weed, btw; of course people would cyber-vape).
I agree with the poster upthread who said the flashback scene read really strangely. Picard feels incredibly passive, like he couldn't get a dentist's appointment rather than like a broken man, and Raffi seems mainly concerned about the impact to her career.
I really like Agnes and Laris and Zhaban. Their scenes have all been wonderfully written and executed so far and the actors play off Stewart really well and they're just fun people to spend time with. I'd be happy just watching these actors and these characters having supper together.
I like Soji, too. I've seen people suggest that she's awkward but I think at least some of that is intentional and at any rate she's gotten to say and do some interesting things. Her scenes, particularly this episode, were much better than the dire stuff at the end of ep 1.
The action scene was terrific, one of the best ones Trek has had in a long time. It was clear, I could tell what was going on, it didn't feel like a bunch of weightless wire-fu nonsense.
The villains remain just kind of bad. That is the part of the story I am absolutely the least happy with. They take twice as long as they should to say incredibly villain 101 things like DON'T FAIL ME AGAIN or WE MAY HAVE TO...ELIMINATE HIM and I'm just checking my watch.
The incest twins feel like the absolute worst habits of Modern Prestige Television seeping in around the sides. It's incredibly played-out in the year of our lord 2020 and I doubt it'll add anything meaningful to the actual story.
Commodore Oh seems to have no personality in particular but...she has Raybans? It's not some crime against writing but again it's like, why. I think in particular it's the combination of the shades + Starfleet uniform that sets off my giggle reflex. If she was wearing civilian clothes like this suave motherfucker
I think it would've played much better.
In general the villain scenes feel so different both tonally and in terms of quality from the Picard bits that I legitimately wonder if they were a last-minute addition by producers worried that viewers would tune out or think that not enough was happening.
Rios' introduction left me cold.
Splashing booze on your wound to show what a cool macho badass you are is some dumb played out Hollywood shorthand and incidentally a great way to get sepsis.
Having multiple holograms that look like yourself but with different accents and you verbally abuse and berate them is...I dunno. What even is it? It feels like very all-caps CHARACTERIZATION. Oooh, this guy is a narcissist but also self-loathing! He probably has Guilt!
A friend predicted that the holograms were probably a practical joke played on Rios by an old friend of his...who is now dead, so Rios can't bring himself to delete them. My friend also predicted that this will be revealed in a scene of tearful confession. My friend is very cynical, but right now I wouldn't necessarily bet against him on this.
A more minor complaint is that the ship interior is just dull. It feels like a green screen set that they just scattered some furniture around at random. I miss Star Trek with real, tactile sets. The shame is that I know this production crew can do it, too, because the Discovery Enterprise was a fucking masterpiece.
That makes it sound like I liked it a lot less than I did. I still really like the show, although at the moment I think ep 1 remains my favorite. There are strong performances, not just from Sir Patrick, and interesting plot beats and it's clear that, contrary to RLM's nonsense, the showrunners and writers are familiar with more than just "casual Star Trek." But it's like there are two wolves inside this show and one of them is kind of a shitty wolf and maybe should consider another career.
A friend predicted that the holograms were probably a practical joke played on Rios by an old friend of his...who is now dead, so Rios can't bring himself to delete them. My friend also predicted that this will be revealed in a scene of tearful confession. My friend is very cynical, but right now I wouldn't necessarily bet against him on this.
If they do this without the cliche tear jerky scene it could actually land well
So I haven't gone in depth here regarding episode three. I had mixed feelings. I'm still very much enjoying the show, but as with episode 2, it feels like there's a "Picard bubble" where most of the scenes with Picard are strong (although some have issues) but as soon as they cut away it's like woof.
First off, and this is sort of a nitpick but also sort of not, they have three characters named Raffi, Rizzo, and Rios. As a friend put it, "see me after class." This is TV writing 101; you don't have two characters named Maxwell and...Haxwell or something. It's not some kind of insurmountable obstancle but it breaks the flow for a crucial second or two here and there as you furrow your brow to try and recall who is who and it's like...why.
Star Trek: Picard characters as read by Scooby Doo.
Perhaps it's all part of the plan. None of these characters actually exist, and everything is happening inside the mind of a Picard suffering from Irumodic Syndrome. The similar names are all clues as to what is really happening.
... no, I'm not being serious. (Or am I, Jean-Luc?)
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
So I haven't gone in depth here regarding episode three. I had mixed feelings. I'm still very much enjoying the show, but as with episode 2, it feels like there's a "Picard bubble" where most of the scenes with Picard are strong (although some have issues) but as soon as they cut away it's like woof.
First off, and this is sort of a nitpick but also sort of not, they have three characters named Raffi, Rizzo, and Rios. As a friend put it, "see me after class." This is TV writing 101; you don't have two characters named Maxwell and...Haxwell or something. It's not some kind of insurmountable obstancle but it breaks the flow for a crucial second or two here and there as you furrow your brow to try and recall who is who and it's like...why.
On to more specific, possibly spoilery things.
Regarding Raffi,
The "JL" bit felt artificial and forced and I cringed each time it happened, which means I cringed about thirty-two times in a two-minute span. It's very much the show trying to establish that these characters have a shared history and a prior relationship but the show already did that so much better with Laris and Zhaban.
Raffi, as a character, I'm kind of on the fence on at the moment. That doesn't mean I dislike her, I'm just waiting to see where things go. As I mentioned earlier, I think I'd kind of prefer it if her firing was due to her own issues and behavior, or to actual sinister Romulan plots, than due to the admiral being terrible to her for basically no reason. It seems like the show is at least suggesting the possibility that she's unhealthily paranoid given her space weed (I did appreciate the space weed, btw; of course people would cyber-vape).
I agree with the poster upthread who said the flashback scene read really strangely. Picard feels incredibly passive, like he couldn't get a dentist's appointment rather than like a broken man, and Raffi seems mainly concerned about the impact to her career.
I really like Agnes and Laris and Zhaban. Their scenes have all been wonderfully written and executed so far and the actors play off Stewart really well and they're just fun people to spend time with. I'd be happy just watching these actors and these characters having supper together.
I like Soji, too. I've seen people suggest that she's awkward but I think at least some of that is intentional and at any rate she's gotten to say and do some interesting things. Her scenes, particularly this episode, were much better than the dire stuff at the end of ep 1.
The action scene was terrific, one of the best ones Trek has had in a long time. It was clear, I could tell what was going on, it didn't feel like a bunch of weightless wire-fu nonsense.
The villains remain just kind of bad. That is the part of the story I am absolutely the least happy with. They take twice as long as they should to say incredibly villain 101 things like DON'T FAIL ME AGAIN or WE MAY HAVE TO...ELIMINATE HIM and I'm just checking my watch.
The incest twins feel like the absolute worst habits of Modern Prestige Television seeping in around the sides. It's incredibly played-out in the year of our lord 2020 and I doubt it'll add anything meaningful to the actual story.
Commodore Oh seems to have no personality in particular but...she has Raybans? It's not some crime against writing but again it's like, why. I think in particular it's the combination of the shades + Starfleet uniform that sets off my giggle reflex. If she was wearing civilian clothes like this suave motherfucker
I think it would've played much better.
In general the villain scenes feel so different both tonally and in terms of quality from the Picard bits that I legitimately wonder if they were a last-minute addition by producers worried that viewers would tune out or think that not enough was happening.
Rios' introduction left me cold.
Splashing booze on your wound to show what a cool macho badass you are is some dumb played out Hollywood shorthand and incidentally a great way to get sepsis.
Having multiple holograms that look like yourself but with different accents and you verbally abuse and berate them is...I dunno. What even is it? It feels like very all-caps CHARACTERIZATION. Oooh, this guy is a narcissist but also self-loathing! He probably has Guilt!
A friend predicted that the holograms were probably a practical joke played on Rios by an old friend of his...who is now dead, so Rios can't bring himself to delete them. My friend also predicted that this will be revealed in a scene of tearful confession. My friend is very cynical, but right now I wouldn't necessarily bet against him on this.
A more minor complaint is that the ship interior is just dull. It feels like a green screen set that they just scattered some furniture around at random. I miss Star Trek with real, tactile sets. The shame is that I know this production crew can do it, too, because the Discovery Enterprise was a fucking masterpiece.
That makes it sound like I liked it a lot less than I did. I still really like the show, although at the moment I think ep 1 remains my favorite. There are strong performances, not just from Sir Patrick, and interesting plot beats and it's clear that, contrary to RLM's nonsense, the showrunners and writers are familiar with more than just "casual Star Trek." But it's like there are two wolves inside this show and one of them is kind of a shitty wolf and maybe should consider another career.
In defence of the name stuff: Rios is his last name, whereas Raffi is her first name. I am quietly hoping they end up using first names all the time.
I continued with TNG. At least now I now where the Tanagra meme comes from. That episode doesn't really hold up to any scrutiny, does it. At least the next one seems way better. I wonder if Michael from Discovery was a bit inspired by Ro.
So having watched episode 3, I feel safe calling it right now:
The Romulans are organic synthetics that rebelled against the Vulcans and ran away forming the Romulan Star Empire. The whole "they rejected logic and left" thing was just some ruse the Zath Vash put in place to hide their origin. After all what better way to hide something then by leaving another secret in its wake. Remember the Vulcan's didn't know the Romulan's looked like Vulcans, but I bet the Romulans did. Allowing the Zath Vash to infiltrate Vulcan society to hide their existence, by altering historical records. Then when people meet the Romulans they go "the secret was that they where Vulcan Rebels"!
To add more weight to the argument; In the Episode Data's day(which incidentally was the first TNG Episode I saw outside of the pilot and a few double episodes) has a Vulcan Ambassador being transported to a meeting with the Romulans. She dies in an apparent transporter accident, but its revealed to be a setup. When Picard and the Enterprise goes to confront the Romulan about kidnapping the Ambassador, they reveal she was a deep cover spy. If they did it once, what is to stop them from doing it twice. Especially if its only to remove ancient historical data?
Data's Day also has Data correspond with Bruce Maddox about his daily life, showing that they where at least talking despite their earlier differences.
It also shows O'Brien and Keiko's wedding, with the cold open showing Keiko getting cold feet. Setting the tone of many a torture O'Brien episode to come. The Next episode was the Wounded the very first Torture O'Brien. (I am so old that I bought the two episodes on a VHS tape which was what we called DVDs in the olden time, which is what we called Blue-rays back in the day, which is what we used to Stream an entire TV season before the Internet was good enough to Netflix and Chill). Not Laserdisc though, Laserdisc was always a trash format.
Additional;
I find the idea that a Romulan ship being the last thing the Borg Cube assimilated to be very suspicious. The fact that the Romulan ex-borg are all various states of Crazy as second suspicious thing. It just makes me more sure of my call.
Lending credence to your argument:
It's a big plot point in Enterprise and its follow-up novels that the Romulans have heavily infiltrated Vulcan society. They can basically implant sleeper agents at will. At least some of the heroes actually know about the Vulcan-Romulan connection, but keep it under wraps for Reasons™.
The big hole:
If the Romulans are organic synths, why would the cabal be so intent on destroying synths with all the accompanying bigotry that implies. I could see it as a realpolitik thing—they wouldn't want rival powers to achieve tech as advanced as their own—but why call Soji/synths/et. al. "abominations" if they're essentially the same as Romulans?
Regarding the big hole
The Zath Vash are actually Vulcans who rejected the way of logic and are just hunting their old synthetic inferiors.
CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
Multiple times I couldn't remember Raffi's name and all I could come up with was Rizzo and I knew that was a different character but Raffi's name would not be pulled from my brain.
So yeah, why?
Rios I instantly memorized because it means river so I assumed that was a thematic thing.
I do wonder why, once they saw how much chemistry there is between Picard, Laris and Zhaban,
they didn't just say, "I know the script calls for Picard to head off with other people, but maybe we bring Laris along after all because she's clearly going to be a hit." I guess it would be contrary to the character's stated goals, but on the other hand they did all get attacked by Tal Shiar so maybe that would change her mind about Picard's safety on Earth.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
I'm not as down as some of you on much of the cast apart from Stewart, but I absolutely agree that the ones that have made the biggest impression are Orla Brady (Laris) and Jamie McShane (Zhaban). They feel like actual characters even when the dialogue is middling (I'm thinking e.g. of the technobabble in episode 2), while the others still feel like drafts for characters.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
I continued with TNG. At least now I now where the Tanagra meme comes from. That episode doesn't really hold up to any scrutiny, does it. At least the next one seems way better. I wonder if Michael from Discovery was a bit inspired by Ro.
You take that back. Darmok is a masterpiece! =P
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
So having watched episode 3, I feel safe calling it right now:
The Romulans are organic synthetics that rebelled against the Vulcans and ran away forming the Romulan Star Empire. The whole "they rejected logic and left" thing was just some ruse the Zath Vash put in place to hide their origin. After all what better way to hide something then by leaving another secret in its wake. Remember the Vulcan's didn't know the Romulan's looked like Vulcans, but I bet the Romulans did. Allowing the Zath Vash to infiltrate Vulcan society to hide their existence, by altering historical records. Then when people meet the Romulans they go "the secret was that they where Vulcan Rebels"!
To add more weight to the argument; In the Episode Data's day(which incidentally was the first TNG Episode I saw outside of the pilot and a few double episodes) has a Vulcan Ambassador being transported to a meeting with the Romulans. She dies in an apparent transporter accident, but its revealed to be a setup. When Picard and the Enterprise goes to confront the Romulan about kidnapping the Ambassador, they reveal she was a deep cover spy. If they did it once, what is to stop them from doing it twice. Especially if its only to remove ancient historical data?
Data's Day also has Data correspond with Bruce Maddox about his daily life, showing that they where at least talking despite their earlier differences.
It also shows O'Brien and Keiko's wedding, with the cold open showing Keiko getting cold feet. Setting the tone of many a torture O'Brien episode to come. The Next episode was the Wounded the very first Torture O'Brien. (I am so old that I bought the two episodes on a VHS tape which was what we called DVDs in the olden time, which is what we called Blue-rays back in the day, which is what we used to Stream an entire TV season before the Internet was good enough to Netflix and Chill). Not Laserdisc though, Laserdisc was always a trash format.
Additional;
I find the idea that a Romulan ship being the last thing the Borg Cube assimilated to be very suspicious. The fact that the Romulan ex-borg are all various states of Crazy as second suspicious thing. It just makes me more sure of my call.
Lending credence to your argument:
It's a big plot point in Enterprise and its follow-up novels that the Romulans have heavily infiltrated Vulcan society. They can basically implant sleeper agents at will. At least some of the heroes actually know about the Vulcan-Romulan connection, but keep it under wraps for Reasons™.
The big hole:
If the Romulans are organic synths, why would the cabal be so intent on destroying synths with all the accompanying bigotry that implies. I could see it as a realpolitik thing—they wouldn't want rival powers to achieve tech as advanced as their own—but why call Soji/synths/et. al. "abominations" if they're essentially the same as Romulans?
On the big hole:
The Borg. They are a counterpoint to the Federation, but what if they are also a different endpoint to organic Synthetics? That Species 1(the original borg) are synthetic too, only they go on a assimilation spree. Other organic synths pose a threat especially since they have to be created with the beginnings of a hive mind ala Soji/Dosh, what with having to be created in pairs. From a Romulan point of view, they pose a threat to everyone by simply existing. Every non-Romulan Synth is a potential second borg collective.
Related to the spoilers
It seemed like all of the crazy drones are Romulan. It would make sense, if Romulans were synths, that they wouldn't be compatible with standard assimilation procedures. Maybe a positronic brain reacts differently. The Romulan robot police makes sense, because looking at that kind of tech is going to eventually lead to a way of discovering the truth. I'm going to assume that most Romulans, anti-robo police included, don't know they're synthetic.
I've been talking to my friends about this for a while and they all think i'm off base but..... Maybe the Romulans created the Borg? Either as a weapon or as some form of a species "upgrade". this would track on why the Borg cube went through collapse when they assimilated the Romulans. They built a backdoor so they could not be assimilated in that way.
I really hope the theory y'all are bouncing around doesn't turn out to be true, 'cause it strikes me, personally, as a profoundly bad and dumb retcon.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Darmok works as an allegory but absolutely falls apart from a technical perspective. So, in other words, it's exactly like every other Star Trek episode, ever.
All language is based on imagery and metaphor, and is intrinsically linked with the context from which it developed and in which it is used. There's absolutely no reason the universal translator wouldn't work in this case unless it doesn't work for pretty much every single Earth-based language.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
Darmok works as an allegory but absolutely falls apart from a technical perspective. So, in other words, it's exactly like every other Star Trek episode, ever.
All language is based on imagery and metaphor, and is intrinsically linked with the context from which it developed and in which it is used. There's absolutely no reason the universal translator wouldn't work in this case unless it doesn't work for pretty much every single Earth-based language.
It's not absolutely horrible as a scifi concept for expressing grand sentiments. "Our two peoples do not understand us so I wish to bring your captain into a situation where we face and adversary together and from that come to an understanding." It's hot garbage if you think about how you'd say "I'm hungry and would like a sandwich."
"Tarronka after the rains failed, Evbrok in the deli on Thursday."
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
The joke I like to use is that either the whole Darmok episode came about when a writer went to England and experienced Cockney Rhyming slang... or Cockney Rhyming Slang came about when somebody saw Darmok and thought "Let's actually make a fuckin' language based on this!".
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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MortiousThe Nightmare BeginsMove to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
Darmok works as an allegory but absolutely falls apart from a technical perspective. So, in other words, it's exactly like every other Star Trek episode, ever.
All language is based on imagery and metaphor, and is intrinsically linked with the context from which it developed and in which it is used. There's absolutely no reason the universal translator wouldn't work in this case unless it doesn't work for pretty much every single Earth-based language.
It was translating their language just fine. The crew undersood the individual words and the sentences, they were just unable to derive the meaning from them.
Darmok works as an allegory but absolutely falls apart from a technical perspective. So, in other words, it's exactly like every other Star Trek episode, ever.
All language is based on imagery and metaphor, and is intrinsically linked with the context from which it developed and in which it is used. There's absolutely no reason the universal translator wouldn't work in this case unless it doesn't work for pretty much every single Earth-based language.
I certainly wouldn't say *every other*. I mean, the whole Crusher family rape-ghost episode is just terrible on all fronts. What makes Darmok a great episode for me is that they come up with a pretty great "in-universe" idea that works as a great allegory, and play it pretty straight all the way through the episode. Sure they still have the usual technobabble stuff about how the teleporters can't get them out of the situation, but the reason they can't communicate isn't because the universal translator isn't working (as Mortius said, it does translate the individual words), its that the words are tied to a history that the translator doesn't have access to, so it doesn't know the "imagery and metaphor" that they're referring to when they say "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" or "Shaka, when the walls fell".
But yeah, they do take to an extreme that wouldn't make sense practically, but the concept is what I'm looking for.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
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I'm not even saying this is what I think happened, I'm just noting it's a possibility since the show seems to be doing a consistent thing of gradually unfolding the backstory through flashbacks and we never actually saw her firing. Right now I feel like it's even money that
A) she was fired as part of the Romulan plot, because as an intelligence officer she was dangerous to their plans etc
C) she was fired because Picard quit and Starfleet was cleaning house on his whole department for ??reasons??
Of those possibilities, I prefer A or B; A because it would fold into the greater plot, B because it feels understandable and human. C would make me unhappy because it's just a dumb thing for an organization to do.
Thought on Eps 2-3:
Although the holograms' accents are a bit cringey, too.
Otherwise it's certainly some of the better Trek I've seen so far.
Regarding episode 2, I have to say it kind of left me cold.
The scene between the Starfleet bad ladies was just rough. Again, it felt like it was something out of a generic low-quality show.
In general I find all the stuff about the Jat Vash or whatever kind of meh. It's a cool idea but it's not working for me so far.
Part I did like:
Episode 3, okay but just okay.
The scene in the present where Picard is at Raffi's place and she tries to tell him she has evidence of Romulan influence in Starfleet or something like that and Picard brushes her off with "But the Romulans wouldn't want to fuck up their own rescue" was super dumb. How about "Oh, really? What evidence?". Makes no sense for him not to hear her out especially given what's going on, and is just dumb writing.
Captain Rios talking with his EMH of whatever-the-fuck accent was just very odd and I didn't need it. It was just confusing. The whole time I was like... Is that an EMH of himself, or does it just look a lot like him? Why does it have this weird accent? Is the accent changing? Is it programmed to have random accents each time it materializes? Or.. is it the same? I wonder what accent the actor has naturally? What is going on?
Like everyone else, my heart swelled with feeling at the end when
Of course there's the minor issue that they've discovered a piece of technology that manages to be a power generator that also works as a holodeck that's a few km in diameter and can support the functioning of multiple AI's and will never be mentioned again, but that's just how Trek rolls.
Starfleet stores all those one off inventions in a warehouse owned by the Commitee to Understand Life Transforming Utilities and Revolutionise Everything
Top. Men.
it's number 13 btw.
To add more weight to the argument; In the Episode Data's day(which incidentally was the first TNG Episode I saw outside of the pilot and a few double episodes) has a Vulcan Ambassador being transported to a meeting with the Romulans. She dies in an apparent transporter accident, but its revealed to be a setup. When Picard and the Enterprise goes to confront the Romulan about kidnapping the Ambassador, they reveal she was a deep cover spy. If they did it once, what is to stop them from doing it twice. Especially if its only to remove ancient historical data?
Data's Day also has Data correspond with Bruce Maddox about his daily life, showing that they where at least talking despite their earlier differences.
It also shows O'Brien and Keiko's wedding, with the cold open showing Keiko getting cold feet. Setting the tone of many a torture O'Brien episode to come. The Next episode was the Wounded the very first Torture O'Brien. (I am so old that I bought the two episodes on a VHS tape which was what we called DVDs in the olden time, which is what we called Blue-rays back in the day, which is what we used to Stream an entire TV season before the Internet was good enough to Netflix and Chill). Not Laserdisc though, Laserdisc was always a trash format.
Additional;
Lending credence to your argument:
The big hole:
I feel like this could easily be a sci-fi novel involving increasingly selective social bubbles and a descent into madness.
On the big hole:
First off, and this is sort of a nitpick but also sort of not, they have three characters named Raffi, Rizzo, and Rios. As a friend put it, "see me after class." This is TV writing 101; you don't have two characters named Maxwell and...Haxwell or something. It's not some kind of insurmountable obstancle but it breaks the flow for a crucial second or two here and there as you furrow your brow to try and recall who is who and it's like...why.
On to more specific, possibly spoilery things.
Regarding Raffi,
Raffi, as a character, I'm kind of on the fence on at the moment. That doesn't mean I dislike her, I'm just waiting to see where things go. As I mentioned earlier, I think I'd kind of prefer it if her firing was due to her own issues and behavior, or to actual sinister Romulan plots, than due to the admiral being terrible to her for basically no reason. It seems like the show is at least suggesting the possibility that she's unhealthily paranoid given her space weed (I did appreciate the space weed, btw; of course people would cyber-vape).
I agree with the poster upthread who said the flashback scene read really strangely. Picard feels incredibly passive, like he couldn't get a dentist's appointment rather than like a broken man, and Raffi seems mainly concerned about the impact to her career.
I really like Agnes and Laris and Zhaban. Their scenes have all been wonderfully written and executed so far and the actors play off Stewart really well and they're just fun people to spend time with. I'd be happy just watching these actors and these characters having supper together.
I like Soji, too. I've seen people suggest that she's awkward but I think at least some of that is intentional and at any rate she's gotten to say and do some interesting things. Her scenes, particularly this episode, were much better than the dire stuff at the end of ep 1.
The action scene was terrific, one of the best ones Trek has had in a long time. It was clear, I could tell what was going on, it didn't feel like a bunch of weightless wire-fu nonsense.
The villains remain just kind of bad. That is the part of the story I am absolutely the least happy with. They take twice as long as they should to say incredibly villain 101 things like DON'T FAIL ME AGAIN or WE MAY HAVE TO...ELIMINATE HIM and I'm just checking my watch.
Commodore Oh seems to have no personality in particular but...she has Raybans? It's not some crime against writing but again it's like, why. I think in particular it's the combination of the shades + Starfleet uniform that sets off my giggle reflex. If she was wearing civilian clothes like this suave motherfucker
I think it would've played much better.
In general the villain scenes feel so different both tonally and in terms of quality from the Picard bits that I legitimately wonder if they were a last-minute addition by producers worried that viewers would tune out or think that not enough was happening.
Rios' introduction left me cold.
Having multiple holograms that look like yourself but with different accents and you verbally abuse and berate them is...I dunno. What even is it? It feels like very all-caps CHARACTERIZATION. Oooh, this guy is a narcissist but also self-loathing! He probably has Guilt!
A friend predicted that the holograms were probably a practical joke played on Rios by an old friend of his...who is now dead, so Rios can't bring himself to delete them. My friend also predicted that this will be revealed in a scene of tearful confession. My friend is very cynical, but right now I wouldn't necessarily bet against him on this.
A more minor complaint is that the ship interior is just dull. It feels like a green screen set that they just scattered some furniture around at random. I miss Star Trek with real, tactile sets. The shame is that I know this production crew can do it, too, because the Discovery Enterprise was a fucking masterpiece.
That makes it sound like I liked it a lot less than I did. I still really like the show, although at the moment I think ep 1 remains my favorite. There are strong performances, not just from Sir Patrick, and interesting plot beats and it's clear that, contrary to RLM's nonsense, the showrunners and writers are familiar with more than just "casual Star Trek." But it's like there are two wolves inside this show and one of them is kind of a shitty wolf and maybe should consider another career.
If they do this without the cliche tear jerky scene it could actually land well
Star Trek: Picard characters as read by Scooby Doo.
... no, I'm not being serious. (Or am I, Jean-Luc?)
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
In defence of the name stuff: Rios is his last name, whereas Raffi is her first name. I am quietly hoping they end up using first names all the time.
Rizzo, yeah that's bleh.
Regarding the big hole
At least that sounds plausible.
So yeah, why?
Rios I instantly memorized because it means river so I assumed that was a thematic thing.
I do wonder why, once they saw how much chemistry there is between Picard, Laris and Zhaban,
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods
You take that back. Darmok is a masterpiece! =P
Related to the spoilers
Law and Order ≠ Justice
ACNH Island Isla Cero: DA-3082-2045-4142
Captain of the SES Comptroller of the State
Except for the Rizzo thing. I have no idea who that is. I don't recall ever hearing that name.
Yes, I had to google who it was as well.
Ocean, tears and heartbreak soup
Half alive in a whitecap foam
Half in love with a white half moon
All language is based on imagery and metaphor, and is intrinsically linked with the context from which it developed and in which it is used. There's absolutely no reason the universal translator wouldn't work in this case unless it doesn't work for pretty much every single Earth-based language.
It's not absolutely horrible as a scifi concept for expressing grand sentiments. "Our two peoples do not understand us so I wish to bring your captain into a situation where we face and adversary together and from that come to an understanding." It's hot garbage if you think about how you'd say "I'm hungry and would like a sandwich."
"Tarronka after the rains failed, Evbrok in the deli on Thursday."
It was translating their language just fine. The crew undersood the individual words and the sentences, they were just unable to derive the meaning from them.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
I certainly wouldn't say *every other*. I mean, the whole Crusher family rape-ghost episode is just terrible on all fronts. What makes Darmok a great episode for me is that they come up with a pretty great "in-universe" idea that works as a great allegory, and play it pretty straight all the way through the episode. Sure they still have the usual technobabble stuff about how the teleporters can't get them out of the situation, but the reason they can't communicate isn't because the universal translator isn't working (as Mortius said, it does translate the individual words), its that the words are tied to a history that the translator doesn't have access to, so it doesn't know the "imagery and metaphor" that they're referring to when they say "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" or "Shaka, when the walls fell".
But yeah, they do take to an extreme that wouldn't make sense practically, but the concept is what I'm looking for.
That trouble communicating could have been just them being dicks to each other, but it being star trek, they went with a more literal sci-fi scenario.
Do you even Idiom?