Specifically in the context of DS9 it makes no sense because then, is Sisko not real and Picard is then? Did Benny invent TOS and TNG too? That doesn't really make sense and also kinda undercuts the point of Star Trek in some ways. (ie - the black captain can only be a dream even in our sci-fi)
And that's not to be pedantic but more to just point out the ways in which the ending doesn't mesh with the property or the series.
That said, they really should have done more with "You Are The Dream And The Dreamer" thing. The non-linearity of the prophets is really interesting as an idea but they clearly don't know what to do with it. I would have liked the idea that Benny and Sisko are both real and connected and that because they are both in some ways non-linear, they are writing each other's stories.
Specifically in the context of DS9 it makes no sense because then, is Sisko not real and Picard is then? Did Benny invent TOS and TNG too? That doesn't really make sense and also kinda undercuts the point of Star Trek in some ways. (ie - the black captain can only be a dream even in our sci-fi)
And that's not to be pedantic but more to just point out the ways in which the ending doesn't mesh with the property or the series.
AKA the St. Elsewhere paradox. That show may well be the original and Ur Example of the "All a dream" trope. Thing is, it also did a whole bunch of crossovers. Shows crossed into it, it crossed into other shows, those other shows crossed into other shows. So when it ends with it all being a dream... hoo boy. You basically have to sit yourself down and ask yourself how much this shit really matters to you
Either way, I want to agree with the sentiment of "Why the fuck should it matter, it's the journey that should matter". But there's just too much fucking evidence to the contrary, despite what people will generally say. It is the most reviled ending trope of them all, and people will shit lead bricks at the sight of it.
"Well at least it didn't end like the Sopranos where it just cut to black in mid sent"
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Specifically in the context of DS9 it makes no sense because then, is Sisko not real and Picard is then? Did Benny invent TOS and TNG too? That doesn't really make sense and also kinda undercuts the point of Star Trek in some ways. (ie - the black captain can only be a dream even in our sci-fi)
And that's not to be pedantic but more to just point out the ways in which the ending doesn't mesh with the property or the series.
Well, yeah. It would cause all sorts of logic snarls if it were taken literally! But I don't think the writers who mooted the idea ever intended that this was the literal factual truth within the world of the story and now Star Trek would forever be about an author from the 1950s; I think they felt it could be a poetic grace note to go out on, something that ould be meaningful and emotional because it reflects the core theme of the franchise, about having the werewithal to see our dreams made real.
That's a different kettle of fish from the coked-out randomness of the St. Elsewhere finale, or the just kind of pointless "please love us! remember when our franchise was good?" cameo at the end of Enterprise.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Specifically in the context of DS9 it makes no sense because then, is Sisko not real and Picard is then? Did Benny invent TOS and TNG too? That doesn't really make sense and also kinda undercuts the point of Star Trek in some ways. (ie - the black captain can only be a dream even in our sci-fi)
And that's not to be pedantic but more to just point out the ways in which the ending doesn't mesh with the property or the series.
AKA the St. Elsewhere paradox. That show may well be the original and Ur Example of the "All a dream" trope. Thing is, it also did a whole bunch of crossovers. Shows crossed into it, it crossed into other shows, those other shows crossed into other shows. So when it ends with it all being a dream... hoo boy. You basically have to sit yourself down and ask yourself how much this shit really matters to you
Either way, I want to agree with the sentiment of "Why the fuck should it matter, it's the journey that should matter". But there's just too much fucking evidence to the contrary, despite what people will generally say. It is the most reviled ending trope of them all, and people will shit lead bricks at the sight of it.
"Well at least it didn't end like the Sopranos where it just cut to black in mid sent"
Yeah, I don't see how one show having a really shitty ending somehow would make all the other shows it touched share that shitty ending. Given that all those other shows "happened", it would actually argue that the ending to St. Elsewhere is what is bullshit because all the crossovers that happened with "real" shows.
"It was all just a dream" may be the setting copout I despise the most, simply because it means nothing in the show was of any consequence even within the setting itself. It's the writing equivalent of "if this ends up bad, it's not our fault because none of it happened!" The Archer series turning into a coma dream basically ruined the show for me completely, until they announced Archer would actually be awake for the final season; a bunch of dream stuff is just wasting my time because there's no consequences or arcs for anything or anybody, if they don't wake up.
It's marginal for something like the DS9 episode, since the "dream" portion gives us a reflection of Sisko's character without invalidating the work of countless writers for a cheap twist ending. Not to mention Sisko has messed with crazy space stuff and is connected to the Prophets, so him having to make his way through that dreamscape isn't random and pointless. So the episode is decent in spite of using a crappy trope, because it's one of the extremely rare times the trope is more than just a "we want to do something crazy but don't have the spine to make it stick".
DS9 did flirt with the idea of it all being in Benny's head in the last season, as the visions Sisko gets from the Pah Wraiths when he's on that quest to find the orb of the emissary put Benny in an insane asylum, writing on the walls, and being told to give up the story. While it's an interesting counterpoint in the episode, and a good throwback to an earlier episode, it's also quite jarring, and for a moment you do get a little scared they're going to make the whole thing in Benny's head. Even when they just flirted with the idea in that episode it felt kind of wrong to me.
I'm struggling to get through the last season of DS9 right now. I remember it being great back when I first watched it, but this time around the first 2/3 of the season has a lot of mediocre filler with some great episodes interspersed here and there, so it's mostly been a slog. I've gotten to the final arc now and the scenes with Dukat and Kia Winn are just terrible. Those two drag episodes to a grinding halt while they spend a bunch of screen time setting up her fall from grace.
The great fault of DS9 is the failure to integrate Dukat and the Pah Wraiths into the flow of the story. It is just "We won the war! Oh wait, my emissary senses are tingling, let's resolve this separate storyline."
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Yeah the series finale arc was definitely a step down from pretty much every major arc that came before it. It's nice that they tried to finish everything but wow was it a jarring transition.
I also don't recall seeing a clear transition from Sisko being a normal, science-literate Federation citizen (and Starfleet officer besides) into becoming a zealot for wormhole aliens. But this might be my faulty memory and maybe they did a whole thing and I just excised it from my brain because the Prophets were boring.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
The transition happens pretty late in the franchise. He gets a vision and then his CO says he's either an officer or the Emissary, he can't be both at once during the war. So he does the war thing, then scrambles to do the Emissary stuff.
The Prophets pretty well fuck him over for playing along, really. First they used his mother to make him get born, give him a pile of utterly useless methods because they can't be bothered to figure out how to communicate decently with humans, then they slapped him with a bullshit mandate that a certain choice meant he wouldn't get to live on Bajor. You'd think saving their asses, and Bajor, multiple times would make them stop being assholes at least a little bit, but nope, he saves them from getting toasted a final time and they take him away from his family and friends as a "reward".
Q's lessons may be rough, but at least they're actually lessons where the correct answer avoids untold amounts of death and suffering. He doesn't just fuck you over and use being a multi-dimensional being not limited by time as an excuse for it.
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MsAnthropyThe Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the RhythmThe City of FlowersRegistered Userregular
Yeah the series finale arc was definitely a step down from pretty much every major arc that came before it. It's nice that they tried to finish everything but wow was it a jarring transition.
I also don't recall seeing a clear transition from Sisko being a normal, science-literate Federation citizen (and Starfleet officer besides) into becoming a zealot for wormhole aliens. But this might be my faulty memory and maybe they did a whole thing and I just excised it from my brain because the Prophets were boring.
I wouldn’t characterize Sisko as a zealot, but his changes in belief were definitely an evolution rather than a singular epiphany. Two big eps for it though are probably the one where the ‘other emissary’ shows up, and the one where the wormhole aliens disappear an entire Dominion fleet.
Edit: Of course it has been years since I saw the end of the series (approaching it on my glacially paced rewatch), so maybe there is a turn I forgot in there.
Yeah the series finale arc was definitely a step down from pretty much every major arc that came before it. It's nice that they tried to finish everything but wow was it a jarring transition.
I also don't recall seeing a clear transition from Sisko being a normal, science-literate Federation citizen (and Starfleet officer besides) into becoming a zealot for wormhole aliens. But this might be my faulty memory and maybe they did a whole thing and I just excised it from my brain because the Prophets were boring.
I wouldn’t characterize Sisko as a zealot, but his changes in belief were definitely an evolution rather than a singular epiphany. Two big eps for it though are probably the one where the ‘other emissary’ shows up, and the one where the wormhole aliens disappear an entire Dominion fleet.
Edit: Of course it has been years since I saw the end of the series (approaching it on my glacially paced rewatch), so maybe there is a turn I forgot in there.
There was also the episode where he got zapped in the holosuite, discovered a city that had been lost for 20,000 years, and then stopped Bajor from joining the Federation.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
I'm not sure what RLM is trying to do here. They did the full 90 min video on this, and I tend to agree with their actual criticisms, but the first 30 mins of this video are just wasted, boring, and dumb. I wonder if this was a Patreon promise or something, they should have just done one last video that covered episodes 9 and 10 to finish out the series instead of doing a full Plinkett series review.
If you can get past the opening the critiques are all on point, the comments they make about the space battle in the finale are things I literally said to my friends while we were talking about the show lol
Hardtarget on
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
I assume their Picard videos are generating revenue for them in some manner, gotta keep milkin it.
I assume their Picard videos are generating revenue for them in some manner, gotta keep milkin it.
They consistently make tens of thousands of dollars per month through Patreon. Can't really tell now that Patreon lets creators hide their income, but even if we go ahead and assume all of their patrons are subscribing at just the $2 minimum that's still easily clearing $17k/mo. So they're very strongly incentivized to keep playing to their base.
I'm not sure what RLM is trying to do here. They did the full 90 min video on this, and I tend to agree with their actual criticisms, but the first 30 mins of this video are just wasted, boring, and dumb. I wonder if this was a Patreon promise or something, they should have just done one last video that covered episodes 9 and 10 to finish out the series instead of doing a full Plinkett series review.
If you can get past the opening the critiques are all on point, the comments they make about the space battle in the finale are things I literally said to my friends while we were talking about the show lol
Yeah, the beginning 30 were far weaker than I expected (although the clip where Picard from TNG very curtly goes "We need to replace Lieutenant Commander Data. Recommendations?!" after the shuttle explodes is hilarious).
Once that passed, it was good.
XBL: Bizazedo
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
edited May 2020
Yeah I'm 5 minutes into that video and I've already started skipping through. Seems like it's full of just random references to previous Trek episodes so far...
Edit: That being said, after skipping through the RLM shtick they do make a few good points, some of which were made in this thread.
I figure its gotta be a "well we have to do Plinkett, it's what everyone expects." I think they've already ripped on TROS with Half in the Bag, right? but you know they're going to do a Plinkett sendup of TROS on top of it.
I'm only about half way through it, but even though he explicitly says he's going to try not to repeat what they've already said before in their earlier reviews. I feel like it is just a repeat. Yeah, I agree with their criticisms, but it's just more of the same.
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Yeah they definitely repeat some of the same points again, in nearly the exact same way. Hence why I hit the -> arrow repeatedly while watching it on 1.25 speed.
Personally I think that's fine, I assume they are aware enough of how much of their casual audience will watch a Plinkett review but don't care about Half in the Bag(while people who watch HitB will more likely also watch Plinkett) that they consider it worth making sure all of their previous points are centralized to one video even if they might essentially repeat for the people who watch everything.
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
I figure its gotta be a "well we have to do Plinkett, it's what everyone expects." I think they've already ripped on TROS with Half in the Bag, right? but you know they're going to do a Plinkett sendup of TROS on top of it.
I'm only about half way through it, but even though he explicitly says he's going to try not to repeat what they've already said before in their earlier reviews. I feel like it is just a repeat. Yeah, I agree with their criticisms, but it's just more of the same.
People really jumping to conclusions of why there is a Plinkett review while missing the obvious. There is a pandemic going on, they haven't done a BotW since it started; it's clearly limited what they can film so he had more free time than normal so he did lengthy, time consuming review. I doubt they would have done the sit-downs with Rich during the season if he had any intention of doing a Plinkett, also probably would have done them for Discovery.
Also agree the beginning of this is pretty weak, kind of feels rushed in some ways or maybe the attempt to not cover too much of the same ground made it lose focus, but it does get better as it goes. It covers a lot of what i had problems with this show, like I'm glad someone somewhere finally pointed out that fucking imagination machine at the end, holy shit, I was livid the whole time that was on screen.
In somewhat related news, I'm running a Star Trek Adventures game for my Tabletop group starting next week. I spent a good 30 minutes trying to figure out an accurate star date. In my research I discovered the show runners of Picard, specifically said they weren't going to do star dates because "they don't tell the audience anything useful", also couldn't find a star date for when Romulus exploded, only a year.
The purpose of the star date is not the give the audience an accurate depiction of when the events are taking place; IT'S FUCKING WORLD BUILDING YOU GOD DAMN CLODS. It's called thinking about your story for a single damn second and realizing people in space don't use an earth calendar. No one gives a shit what day it takes place, but they do care about the effort you put into your work, and apparently, I've already done more running my dumb game than multi-million dollar Trek productions have in a decade.
Trek could use someone like Henry Cavill. A big enough name that grew up on Star Trek TNG/DS9/Voyager and has the clout to convince the suits that something in the spirit of Roddenberry could work. No idea if Seth Macfarlane tried or if he always wanted to do his own thing.
I figure its gotta be a "well we have to do Plinkett, it's what everyone expects." I think they've already ripped on TROS with Half in the Bag, right? but you know they're going to do a Plinkett sendup of TROS on top of it.
I'm only about half way through it, but even though he explicitly says he's going to try not to repeat what they've already said before in their earlier reviews. I feel like it is just a repeat. Yeah, I agree with their criticisms, but it's just more of the same.
People really jumping to conclusions of why there is a Plinkett review while missing the obvious. There is a pandemic going on, they haven't done a BotW since it started; it's clearly limited what they can film so he had more free time than normal so he did lengthy, time consuming review. I doubt they would have done the sit-downs with Rich during the season if he had any intention of doing a Plinkett, also probably would have done them for Discovery.
Also agree the beginning of this is pretty weak, kind of feels rushed in some ways or maybe the attempt to not cover too much of the same ground made it lose focus, but it does get better as it goes. It covers a lot of what i had problems with this show, like I'm glad someone somewhere finally pointed out that fucking imagination machine at the end, holy shit, I was livid the whole time that was on screen.
I suspect they're going to do more shitting on Picard. The review made it onto Reddit's video sub and was filled to the brim with angry neckbeards calling it, and disco, the worst things ever, and creating star trek fan strawmen who kicked them off the internet for speaking that truth to power.
I figure its gotta be a "well we have to do Plinkett, it's what everyone expects." I think they've already ripped on TROS with Half in the Bag, right? but you know they're going to do a Plinkett sendup of TROS on top of it.
I'm only about half way through it, but even though he explicitly says he's going to try not to repeat what they've already said before in their earlier reviews. I feel like it is just a repeat. Yeah, I agree with their criticisms, but it's just more of the same.
People really jumping to conclusions of why there is a Plinkett review while missing the obvious. There is a pandemic going on, they haven't done a BotW since it started; it's clearly limited what they can film so he had more free time than normal so he did lengthy, time consuming review. I doubt they would have done the sit-downs with Rich during the season if he had any intention of doing a Plinkett, also probably would have done them for Discovery.
Also agree the beginning of this is pretty weak, kind of feels rushed in some ways or maybe the attempt to not cover too much of the same ground made it lose focus, but it does get better as it goes. It covers a lot of what i had problems with this show, like I'm glad someone somewhere finally pointed out that fucking imagination machine at the end, holy shit, I was livid the whole time that was on screen.
I suspect they're going to do more shitting on Picard. The review made it onto Reddit's video sub and was filled to the brim with angry neckbeards calling it, and disco, the worst things ever, and creating star trek fan strawmen who kicked them off the internet for speaking that truth to power.
How lovely.
I'm sure they'll shit on Strange New Worlds, too.
Then, in about ten or fifteen years when a new showrunner goes out of their way to make a show exactly like TNG...they'll shit on it for not being enough like Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I don't know if I'd go that far. They definitely have a shtick, but it's unfair to say that they will pursue it doggedly into the ground with no thought to integrity or consistency.
So far they've shit on things that have, at the end of the day, assessed by many of us as not good. They may have different opinions on why those things are not good, but it's not like they've been actively shitting on stuff that has been amazing.
I figure its gotta be a "well we have to do Plinkett, it's what everyone expects." I think they've already ripped on TROS with Half in the Bag, right? but you know they're going to do a Plinkett sendup of TROS on top of it.
I'm only about half way through it, but even though he explicitly says he's going to try not to repeat what they've already said before in their earlier reviews. I feel like it is just a repeat. Yeah, I agree with their criticisms, but it's just more of the same.
People really jumping to conclusions of why there is a Plinkett review while missing the obvious. There is a pandemic going on, they haven't done a BotW since it started; it's clearly limited what they can film so he had more free time than normal so he did lengthy, time consuming review. I doubt they would have done the sit-downs with Rich during the season if he had any intention of doing a Plinkett, also probably would have done them for Discovery.
Also agree the beginning of this is pretty weak, kind of feels rushed in some ways or maybe the attempt to not cover too much of the same ground made it lose focus, but it does get better as it goes. It covers a lot of what i had problems with this show, like I'm glad someone somewhere finally pointed out that fucking imagination machine at the end, holy shit, I was livid the whole time that was on screen.
I suspect they're going to do more shitting on Picard. The review made it onto Reddit's video sub and was filled to the brim with angry neckbeards calling it, and disco, the worst things ever, and creating star trek fan strawmen who kicked them off the internet for speaking that truth to power.
How lovely.
I'm sure they'll shit on Strange New Worlds, too.
Then, in about ten or fifteen years when a new showrunner goes out of their way to make a show exactly like TNG...they'll shit on it for not being enough like Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds.
Did you ever stop to think you're shitting on them in the same way you accuse them of shitting on things?
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I figure its gotta be a "well we have to do Plinkett, it's what everyone expects." I think they've already ripped on TROS with Half in the Bag, right? but you know they're going to do a Plinkett sendup of TROS on top of it.
I'm only about half way through it, but even though he explicitly says he's going to try not to repeat what they've already said before in their earlier reviews. I feel like it is just a repeat. Yeah, I agree with their criticisms, but it's just more of the same.
People really jumping to conclusions of why there is a Plinkett review while missing the obvious. There is a pandemic going on, they haven't done a BotW since it started; it's clearly limited what they can film so he had more free time than normal so he did lengthy, time consuming review. I doubt they would have done the sit-downs with Rich during the season if he had any intention of doing a Plinkett, also probably would have done them for Discovery.
Also agree the beginning of this is pretty weak, kind of feels rushed in some ways or maybe the attempt to not cover too much of the same ground made it lose focus, but it does get better as it goes. It covers a lot of what i had problems with this show, like I'm glad someone somewhere finally pointed out that fucking imagination machine at the end, holy shit, I was livid the whole time that was on screen.
I suspect they're going to do more shitting on Picard. The review made it onto Reddit's video sub and was filled to the brim with angry neckbeards calling it, and disco, the worst things ever, and creating star trek fan strawmen who kicked them off the internet for speaking that truth to power.
How lovely.
I'm sure they'll shit on Strange New Worlds, too.
Then, in about ten or fifteen years when a new showrunner goes out of their way to make a show exactly like TNG...they'll shit on it for not being enough like Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds.
Did you ever stop to think you're shitting on them in the same way you accuse them of shitting on things?
Possibly, but neither Mancington nor I have a Youtube series with a large following that actually pays our bills or anything. Maybe our criticism of them really is similar to lots of people's criticism of Picard, in the thinking, "I know this can be better, I know you have talent, so I don't accept anything half-assed just to make you a buck." Except I actually do give Picard a little bit of leeway to be slightly assy until it finds its feet; RLM has had years to find it's feet, so it doesn't have the excuse.
Aside from which, I'm going to follow the Henry V form of justice here, in that the mercy which was quick in us of late by your own council is suppressed and killed. I would grant greater leeway to RLM if they were willing to grant greater leeway to Star Trek/Star Wars/Any series that they loved as kids which has new properties out. If they want that leeway, they have to give it, too.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Trek could use someone like Henry Cavill. A big enough name that grew up on Star Trek TNG/DS9/Voyager and has the clout to convince the suits that something in the spirit of Roddenberry could work. No idea if Seth Macfarlane tried or if he always wanted to do his own thing.
I think that in Macfarlane's case the issue is that most of his clout is at Fox, where his three moneymaking cartoons are housed, rather than at Paramount or CBS.
Aside from that, he also might be under some kind of actual contract or development deal that specifically prohibits him going across the street to a TV competitor.
I figure its gotta be a "well we have to do Plinkett, it's what everyone expects." I think they've already ripped on TROS with Half in the Bag, right? but you know they're going to do a Plinkett sendup of TROS on top of it.
I'm only about half way through it, but even though he explicitly says he's going to try not to repeat what they've already said before in their earlier reviews. I feel like it is just a repeat. Yeah, I agree with their criticisms, but it's just more of the same.
People really jumping to conclusions of why there is a Plinkett review while missing the obvious. There is a pandemic going on, they haven't done a BotW since it started; it's clearly limited what they can film so he had more free time than normal so he did lengthy, time consuming review. I doubt they would have done the sit-downs with Rich during the season if he had any intention of doing a Plinkett, also probably would have done them for Discovery.
Also agree the beginning of this is pretty weak, kind of feels rushed in some ways or maybe the attempt to not cover too much of the same ground made it lose focus, but it does get better as it goes. It covers a lot of what i had problems with this show, like I'm glad someone somewhere finally pointed out that fucking imagination machine at the end, holy shit, I was livid the whole time that was on screen.
I suspect they're going to do more shitting on Picard. The review made it onto Reddit's video sub and was filled to the brim with angry neckbeards calling it, and disco, the worst things ever, and creating star trek fan strawmen who kicked them off the internet for speaking that truth to power.
How lovely.
I'm sure they'll shit on Strange New Worlds, too.
Then, in about ten or fifteen years when a new showrunner goes out of their way to make a show exactly like TNG...they'll shit on it for not being enough like Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds.
Did you ever stop to think you're shitting on them in the same way you accuse them of shitting on things?
Possibly, but neither Mancington nor I have a Youtube series with a large following that actually pays our bills or anything. Maybe our criticism of them really is similar to lots of people's criticism of Picard, in the thinking, "I know this can be better, I know you have talent, so I don't accept anything half-assed just to make you a buck." Except I actually do give Picard a little bit of leeway to be slightly assy until it finds its feet; RLM has had years to find it's feet, so it doesn't have the excuse.
Aside from which, I'm going to follow the Henry V form of justice here, in that the mercy which was quick in us of late by your own council is suppressed and killed. I would grant greater leeway to RLM if they were willing to grant greater leeway to Star Trek/Star Wars/Any series that they loved as kids which has new properties out. If they want that leeway, they have to give it, too.
Their bread was buttered not from Star Trek but Star Wars. They panned TLJ cause it was bad, they panned RotS.... err the other RotS, cause it was bad in new and exciting ways. They praised The Mandalorian, because gasp! It was actually good. It's possible they just give their honest opinions. Yeah they made a video, it will get clicks, they will make money.
I was really, really tempted to do a break down of that episode where they're on Freecloud in this thread. Like, I didn't like the show before it, I knew when I had dozens of questions after the first episode that I knew wouldn't get answered (they weren't!) that the show was on a bad path, but that episode on Freecload was so fucking horrendous top to bottom, I was just stunned and wanted to vent. But I don't get paid, and I knew I'd just get people saying I'm just some asshole who wanted to hate it or whatever. Money may give them a reason to make the video, but it does not mean it changes their opinion.
Maybe stop trying to put people who didn't like the crappy show you like into boxes, and just accept you like a bad show.
They're a group of white dudes that have some filmmaking knowledge, good group chemistry, and a whole lot of opinions. That's basically all. Them liking or disliking a thing doesn't make it objective truth, all the videos do is give a pretty good explanation for why they feel that way.
I dunno. I think that all Trek has ever needed is a mixed cast with decent, dedicated actors and a smart, optimistic writer's room
That's the thing about Trek. It can work with barely anything. You could do Star Trek in a shed, with some monitors as bridge screens, and as long as you get the spirit right, fans will accept it
Like the worst Trek series ever was Voyager and I don't think that any of the cast were poor
The writing was just garbage. Trek lives or dies on it's episode writers.
Disclaimer: I dropped STD and STP after 4 episodes.
I am cautiously optimistic about the new series.
I ended up checking the STD 2x1 to see the Captain Pike. He looks and sounds great and parts involving him were good.
Didn't care much for the STD drama parts. Or that Ensign.
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
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And that's not to be pedantic but more to just point out the ways in which the ending doesn't mesh with the property or the series.
AKA the St. Elsewhere paradox. That show may well be the original and Ur Example of the "All a dream" trope. Thing is, it also did a whole bunch of crossovers. Shows crossed into it, it crossed into other shows, those other shows crossed into other shows. So when it ends with it all being a dream... hoo boy. You basically have to sit yourself down and ask yourself how much this shit really matters to you
Either way, I want to agree with the sentiment of "Why the fuck should it matter, it's the journey that should matter". But there's just too much fucking evidence to the contrary, despite what people will generally say. It is the most reviled ending trope of them all, and people will shit lead bricks at the sight of it.
"Well at least it didn't end like the Sopranos where it just cut to black in mid sent"
Well, yeah. It would cause all sorts of logic snarls if it were taken literally! But I don't think the writers who mooted the idea ever intended that this was the literal factual truth within the world of the story and now Star Trek would forever be about an author from the 1950s; I think they felt it could be a poetic grace note to go out on, something that ould be meaningful and emotional because it reflects the core theme of the franchise, about having the werewithal to see our dreams made real.
That's a different kettle of fish from the coked-out randomness of the St. Elsewhere finale, or the just kind of pointless "please love us! remember when our franchise was good?" cameo at the end of Enterprise.
Yeah, I don't see how one show having a really shitty ending somehow would make all the other shows it touched share that shitty ending. Given that all those other shows "happened", it would actually argue that the ending to St. Elsewhere is what is bullshit because all the crossovers that happened with "real" shows.
"It was all just a dream" may be the setting copout I despise the most, simply because it means nothing in the show was of any consequence even within the setting itself. It's the writing equivalent of "if this ends up bad, it's not our fault because none of it happened!" The Archer series turning into a coma dream basically ruined the show for me completely, until they announced Archer would actually be awake for the final season; a bunch of dream stuff is just wasting my time because there's no consequences or arcs for anything or anybody, if they don't wake up.
It's marginal for something like the DS9 episode, since the "dream" portion gives us a reflection of Sisko's character without invalidating the work of countless writers for a cheap twist ending. Not to mention Sisko has messed with crazy space stuff and is connected to the Prophets, so him having to make his way through that dreamscape isn't random and pointless. So the episode is decent in spite of using a crappy trope, because it's one of the extremely rare times the trope is more than just a "we want to do something crazy but don't have the spine to make it stick".
I'm struggling to get through the last season of DS9 right now. I remember it being great back when I first watched it, but this time around the first 2/3 of the season has a lot of mediocre filler with some great episodes interspersed here and there, so it's mostly been a slog. I've gotten to the final arc now and the scenes with Dukat and Kia Winn are just terrible. Those two drag episodes to a grinding halt while they spend a bunch of screen time setting up her fall from grace.
Just because they show Benny do something it doesn't mean it's the only reality
I also don't recall seeing a clear transition from Sisko being a normal, science-literate Federation citizen (and Starfleet officer besides) into becoming a zealot for wormhole aliens. But this might be my faulty memory and maybe they did a whole thing and I just excised it from my brain because the Prophets were boring.
The Prophets pretty well fuck him over for playing along, really. First they used his mother to make him get born, give him a pile of utterly useless methods because they can't be bothered to figure out how to communicate decently with humans, then they slapped him with a bullshit mandate that a certain choice meant he wouldn't get to live on Bajor. You'd think saving their asses, and Bajor, multiple times would make them stop being assholes at least a little bit, but nope, he saves them from getting toasted a final time and they take him away from his family and friends as a "reward".
Q's lessons may be rough, but at least they're actually lessons where the correct answer avoids untold amounts of death and suffering. He doesn't just fuck you over and use being a multi-dimensional being not limited by time as an excuse for it.
I wouldn’t characterize Sisko as a zealot, but his changes in belief were definitely an evolution rather than a singular epiphany. Two big eps for it though are probably the one where the ‘other emissary’ shows up, and the one where the wormhole aliens disappear an entire Dominion fleet.
Edit: Of course it has been years since I saw the end of the series (approaching it on my glacially paced rewatch), so maybe there is a turn I forgot in there.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
Not a sentence I ever expected to write. Not something I knew I wanted until I had it.
There was also the episode where he got zapped in the holosuite, discovered a city that had been lost for 20,000 years, and then stopped Bajor from joining the Federation.
I'm not sure what RLM is trying to do here. They did the full 90 min video on this, and I tend to agree with their actual criticisms, but the first 30 mins of this video are just wasted, boring, and dumb. I wonder if this was a Patreon promise or something, they should have just done one last video that covered episodes 9 and 10 to finish out the series instead of doing a full Plinkett series review.
If you can get past the opening the critiques are all on point, the comments they make about the space battle in the finale are things I literally said to my friends while we were talking about the show lol
They consistently make tens of thousands of dollars per month through Patreon. Can't really tell now that Patreon lets creators hide their income, but even if we go ahead and assume all of their patrons are subscribing at just the $2 minimum that's still easily clearing $17k/mo. So they're very strongly incentivized to keep playing to their base.
Once that passed, it was good.
PSN: Bizazedo
CFN: Bizazedo (I don't think I suck, add me).
Edit: That being said, after skipping through the RLM shtick they do make a few good points, some of which were made in this thread.
I'm only about half way through it, but even though he explicitly says he's going to try not to repeat what they've already said before in their earlier reviews. I feel like it is just a repeat. Yeah, I agree with their criticisms, but it's just more of the same.
Enlist in Star Citizen! Citizenship must be earned!
yikes
I'm sad now
This is way too on brand for O'Brien
People really jumping to conclusions of why there is a Plinkett review while missing the obvious. There is a pandemic going on, they haven't done a BotW since it started; it's clearly limited what they can film so he had more free time than normal so he did lengthy, time consuming review. I doubt they would have done the sit-downs with Rich during the season if he had any intention of doing a Plinkett, also probably would have done them for Discovery.
Also agree the beginning of this is pretty weak, kind of feels rushed in some ways or maybe the attempt to not cover too much of the same ground made it lose focus, but it does get better as it goes. It covers a lot of what i had problems with this show, like I'm glad someone somewhere finally pointed out that fucking imagination machine at the end, holy shit, I was livid the whole time that was on screen.
The purpose of the star date is not the give the audience an accurate depiction of when the events are taking place; IT'S FUCKING WORLD BUILDING YOU GOD DAMN CLODS. It's called thinking about your story for a single damn second and realizing people in space don't use an earth calendar. No one gives a shit what day it takes place, but they do care about the effort you put into your work, and apparently, I've already done more running my dumb game than multi-million dollar Trek productions have in a decade.
I suspect they're going to do more shitting on Picard. The review made it onto Reddit's video sub and was filled to the brim with angry neckbeards calling it, and disco, the worst things ever, and creating star trek fan strawmen who kicked them off the internet for speaking that truth to power.
How lovely.
I'm sure they'll shit on Strange New Worlds, too.
Then, in about ten or fifteen years when a new showrunner goes out of their way to make a show exactly like TNG...they'll shit on it for not being enough like Discovery, Picard, and Strange New Worlds.
So far they've shit on things that have, at the end of the day, assessed by many of us as not good. They may have different opinions on why those things are not good, but it's not like they've been actively shitting on stuff that has been amazing.
Did you ever stop to think you're shitting on them in the same way you accuse them of shitting on things?
Possibly, but neither Mancington nor I have a Youtube series with a large following that actually pays our bills or anything. Maybe our criticism of them really is similar to lots of people's criticism of Picard, in the thinking, "I know this can be better, I know you have talent, so I don't accept anything half-assed just to make you a buck." Except I actually do give Picard a little bit of leeway to be slightly assy until it finds its feet; RLM has had years to find it's feet, so it doesn't have the excuse.
Aside from which, I'm going to follow the Henry V form of justice here, in that the mercy which was quick in us of late by your own council is suppressed and killed. I would grant greater leeway to RLM if they were willing to grant greater leeway to Star Trek/Star Wars/Any series that they loved as kids which has new properties out. If they want that leeway, they have to give it, too.
I think that in Macfarlane's case the issue is that most of his clout is at Fox, where his three moneymaking cartoons are housed, rather than at Paramount or CBS.
Aside from that, he also might be under some kind of actual contract or development deal that specifically prohibits him going across the street to a TV competitor.
Their bread was buttered not from Star Trek but Star Wars. They panned TLJ cause it was bad, they panned RotS.... err the other RotS, cause it was bad in new and exciting ways. They praised The Mandalorian, because gasp! It was actually good. It's possible they just give their honest opinions. Yeah they made a video, it will get clicks, they will make money.
I was really, really tempted to do a break down of that episode where they're on Freecloud in this thread. Like, I didn't like the show before it, I knew when I had dozens of questions after the first episode that I knew wouldn't get answered (they weren't!) that the show was on a bad path, but that episode on Freecload was so fucking horrendous top to bottom, I was just stunned and wanted to vent. But I don't get paid, and I knew I'd just get people saying I'm just some asshole who wanted to hate it or whatever. Money may give them a reason to make the video, but it does not mean it changes their opinion.
Maybe stop trying to put people who didn't like the crappy show you like into boxes, and just accept you like a bad show.
That's the thing about Trek. It can work with barely anything. You could do Star Trek in a shed, with some monitors as bridge screens, and as long as you get the spirit right, fans will accept it
The writing was just garbage. Trek lives or dies on it's episode writers.
Disclaimer: I dropped STD and STP after 4 episodes.
I am cautiously optimistic about the new series.
I ended up checking the STD 2x1 to see the Captain Pike. He looks and sounds great and parts involving him were good.
Didn't care much for the STD drama parts. Or that Ensign.
Voyager wasn't the worst Trek. Enterprise was.
This is not in any way an endorsement of Voyager.